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@Devs: Ideas for Balancing Update for DPS Fighter

fsf4livefsf4live Member Posts: 29 Arc User
Hello.

I really like the game, but the class balance between dps classes is really annoying. Because with the false class, I never get invited to any random group for new content (Tower of the mad Mage). I can't participate because of lower damage caused by class selection. Only Mage and Rogue are wanted classes. Fighters, Warlocks and Barbarians are quite useless and have no chance to join a group or do good damage. That is really frustrating for me. So I really wish, that a class balancing update will come as soon as possible. I play a fighter, so I have some ideas, that could buff DPS-Fighters:

1) "Vigorous Strikes" is a useless class feature, because every end game player has capped Critical Strike. It would be a good alternative, if it increased Critical Severity, like the 25% Critical Serverity class feature of the barbarian. The problem is, that there are only two usefull class features: "Momentum" and "Enduring Vengeance". If that class feature would be changed, there would be a thrid alternative. "Combat Superiority" is also very weak compared to Rangers "Flurry" feat, which buffs At-Will powers in a higher amount.
2) "Commanders Strike" has a 20 sec cooldown and only 400 magnitude. Rogues "Wicked Reminder" (same effect) has 600 magnitude and 16 sec cooldown. So it is superior. Buffing "Commanders Strike" would make it to a good alternative for encounters which buffs the whole team. Like it is now, it wouldn't be used because the personal damage (which is already really low) will get lower compared to Griffons Wrath.
3) The feat "Executioners Cut" could proc at 50% health of the enemy instead of 30%. That will also buff the fighter quite a bit. The alternative feat "Bloody Reprise" is really bad, because I wouldn't waste an encouter power without the 20%-vengeance-buff to refill the vengeance. Other feats like "Ricochet" or "Crushing Blows" are also no real options to choose.
4) If the Fighter is still too weak, increasing the vengeance buff from 20% to 30% could also work for more class balancing.
5) The idea of an counterattacking dps with high burst damage is really good. It characterizes the fighter. So I would not buff our weak at Wills. An idea could be to increase the burst damage with higher encounter magnitudes, if the fighter is still too weak.

These are some ideas for balancing the dps fighter. I hope some devs will read it. And maybe we get a balancing update like the warlock. If other players also have some senseful ideas to balance the fighter, you can add them. Thanks for reading.

*these ideas are by my friend, who is new in the forum and couldn't post something.

Comments

  • haneva#3971 haneva Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    These are all very constructive ideas that I fully agree with and support. In fact, a very quick and simple fix to attempt to address class balancing for DPS Fighters would be to increase the damage buff of vengeance from 20% to 30% as suggested in point 4 above.
  • fsf4livefsf4live Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited November 2019
    Yes. That would be the easiest way. Don't know whether these 10% would be enough to balance with Rogues, but it would be an easy change to start with. We hope devs will do something.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 914 Arc User
    I 100% agree that the Dreadnaught path needs a major rework to be viable in endgame content.
    In its current state a properly built Vanguard can output more damage than a Dreadnaught.

    I have done extensive testing on both paragon paths (using LOMM as benchmark). The vanguard has the advantage of aggro, and can easily do high damage based on incoming damage/hits taken.

    My vanguard DPS build for those interested :
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-TivWhOiagxE9KCpGTqAXEm7fbrKp60-vWXUKKwfnAE/edit?usp=sharing

    For a Dreadnaught to come close you will need extremely high-end gear, a very spesific companion setup, two loadouts (single/multi target), 2 weapon sets (different set bonuses for single/multi target) AND you need to group up with other dps willing to wait for your vengeance meter to refill.

    My current Dreadnaught setup relies on lightning+Vorpal enchants, power/armorpen stack (180k both), owlbear cub, tales set, wyvern set (pwr + armpen on daily), Tanner's ring, crit sev stack. At 27k ilvl and a stupid amount of hours spent perfecting rotation/playstyle I can reach about 60% of HR/Wiz DMG dealt in LOMM (running in first like a fool, hoping all the stars align and praying not to be killed by taking dmg for vengeance meter)

    I know mr @mimicking#6533 said the Fighter was awesome for PVP, but I haven't been able to test if this statement is correct as I have had a grand total of zero PVP queues pop after M17 launch.

    As I have stated before, the easiest fix would be to let Dreadnaught que as a tank
    Elite Whaleboy
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,290 Arc User
    I don't see the cape recommendation.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 914 Arc User
    > @pitshade said:
    > I don't see the cape recommendation.

    FOM cape is ofc The Hellfire cape 😈
    Elite Whaleboy
  • demarw2#2749 demarw2 Member Posts: 70 Arc User
    A big problem is that the Fighter is a really slow class. Faster attacking dps classes, like the Barbarian, can proc things like Tenebrous or Baby Owlbear Presence more often... Making the Fighter faster wouldn't be the way because it is not Fighters style to attack fast. To compensate that the burst damage should be increased.
  • reeper#9973 reeper Member Posts: 122 Arc User
    I agree that the Fighter is lacking really far with his DPS, but a BIS Vanguard will not do more DPS than a properly geared Dreadnought. Its easy to test, bring the best Vanguard you can find and I'll get a good Dreadnought and we'll see.
    Fighter DPS might possibly be the worst DPS class atm for content like TOMM :(
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 914 Arc User

    I agree that the Fighter is lacking really far with his DPS, but a BIS Vanguard will not do more DPS than a properly geared Dreadnought. Its easy to test, bring the best Vanguard you can find and I'll get a good Dreadnought and we'll see.
    Fighter DPS might possibly be the worst DPS class atm for content like TOMM :(

    Challenge accepted

    Elite Whaleboy
  • demarw2#2749 demarw2 Member Posts: 70 Arc User
    edited November 2019
    > @"reeper#9973" said:
    > I agree that the Fighter is lacking really far with his DPS, but a BIS Vanguard will not do more DPS than a properly geared Dreadnought. Its easy to test, bring the best Vanguard you can find and I'll get a good Dreadnought and we'll see.
    > Fighter DPS might possibly be the worst DPS class atm for content like TOMM :(

    Yes, I totally agree with that.

    - I have one loadout for a Dreadnought and one Loadout für a DPS Vanguard. The Vanguard deals “only" about 70% of the damage the Dreadnought deals. But that difference is too small for a comparison of a tank and a DPS.

    - And yes, Fighter might be the worst DPS class in ToMM. I often read that. Hopefully the devs will see this thread here and will implement some balancing. The Fighter should be a DPS class, which excel at single target and is not so good at AoE. But it is the worsest class in ToMM (single target). That is really sad.
  • fsf4livefsf4live Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    Thanks for the feedback.
  • reeper#9973 reeper Member Posts: 122 Arc User




    So I guess Dreadnought is still the path to choose for DPS...
    Thanks @wilbur626 for being a sport and running with us.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 914 Arc User
    That was a very educational run for me, thank you very much for setting it up @reeper#9973 . I stand corrected. Now give me your build :P
    Elite Whaleboy
  • fsf4livefsf4live Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    Well, nice experiment. I have also two setups for DPS: one for Dreadnought and one for Vanguard. The avarage is about 70% of Dreadnoughts damage for the Vanguard. But that is still awesome for a tank!

    LoMM is not that big problem for DPS fighters. The real problem is ToMM. Or if you have a good Arcanist in LoMM you can see a big difference especially in boss fights. The damage in LoMM also depends on rushing into the mobs. So we can compansate a lot with a very aggressive playstyle. In ToMM, there nobody can rush, the real differences in terms of damage get visible.

    So there have to be a buff/update implemented to make it for DPS fighters possible to enter and pass ToMM. Please Devs, do something!
  • mcfobmcfob Member Posts: 76 Arc User
    More suggestions, sorry if any of these has been mentioned before:

    Reduce time for heavy slash, and/or increase damage buff, and fix magnitude
    reduce time/ap gain for brazen slash and/or increase damage from reave
    Reduce cooldowns on all encounters, at least by 5 seconds each, preferably more
    add 20 percent crit sev buff to greater endurance
    make combat superiority buff everything and increase movement to 20 percent
    move weight of vengence feat to the spot ricochet is
    get rid of arm pen requirement for crushing blows

  • demonflaim#9512 demonflaim Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    enduring vengeance: should add some % movement speed since gf has no way exept bull charge to get close to target..and most of gf don't even use bull charge..some bleed effects should be really useful in general since like tenebrous is really trendy and most classes also have a lot of dots and also for owlbear cub's comp bonus maybe..special move(tab) should be removed and place something like rage from gwf and put another way for generating vengeance..
    ONSLAUGHT: even the slowest npc in the game can dodge that skill by moving 1 cm, same with griffon's wrath.. so I suggest maybe 1 sec stun while casting it..
    also we need faster casting times and less cooldowns or atleast feats that lower the cooldowns and maybe feats that increase attacking by hitting or something..
  • demarw2#2749 demarw2 Member Posts: 70 Arc User
    Oh I got a really nice idea for our DPS fighter for mod 19s class change.

    Change our R1 (PS4, PC should be Tab) class mechanic 'seethe' to something like Barbarians rage. We still have the stamina and vengeance bar. Is the Vengeance bar above 50% we can press R1 (like Rage) and get 'Vengeful' . When we are vengeful the vengeance bar decreases by time like Barbarians Rage. 'Vengeful' don't increases our attack speed, like rage. That would be a boring copy of the Barbarian and would not match fighter playstyle with high encounter burst damage. 'Vengeful' would increase our recharge speed extremely like wizards overpowered daily. So that we can use our encounter powers non stop during 10 seconds. So we have our high burst damage.

    And how we can fill our Vengeance bar? While shielding (R3) a small amount of stamina is converted into Vengeance. A much lower amount than with seethe now. So it refills the Vengeance bar completely in 40 seconds or something like that. But when getting hit while blocking, a much higher amount of stamina should be converted into vengeance.

    I think that would match fighters original playstyle (mod 15) very good. What do you think about that?

    Another idea than reducing cooldowns could be increasing (encounter) damage by 100% while being vengeful in these 10 seconds.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,352 Arc User
    fsf4live said:


    1) "Vigorous Strikes" is a useless class feature, because every end game player has capped Critical Strike. It would be a good alternative, if it increased Critical Severity, like the 25% Critical Serverity class feature of the barbarian. The problem is, that there are only two usefull class features: "Momentum" and "Enduring Vengeance". If that class feature would be changed, there would be a thrid alternative. "Combat Superiority" is also very weak compared to Rangers "Flurry" feat, which buffs At-Will powers in a higher amount.

    A more interesting change would be to let the 10% Crit Strike go past the cap, but I don't think that would happen because I'd bet it literally is programmed as "gain +10,000 Crit Strike relative to stamina" or something like that.
    fsf4live said:


    2) "Commanders Strike" has a 20 sec cooldown and only 400 magnitude. Rogues "Wicked Reminder" (same effect) has 600 magnitude and 16 sec cooldown. So it is superior. Buffing "Commanders Strike" would make it to a good alternative for encounters which buffs the whole team. Like it is now, it wouldn't be used because the personal damage (which is already really low) will get lower compared to Griffons Wrath.

    You know what's even more "funny?"

    The fact that Wicked Reminder, Commander's Strike, and Disarming Takedown (if I recall correctly) are literally the same debuff that only stacks once.
    fsf4live said:


    3) The feat "Executioners Cut" could proc at 50% health of the enemy instead of 30%. That will also buff the fighter quite a bit.

    Could work, but I can't see this being a magical fix to dealing poor damage.

    These are all very constructive ideas that I fully agree with and support. In fact, a very quick and simple fix to attempt to address class balancing for DPS Fighters would be to increase the damage buff of vengeance from 20% to 30% as suggested in point 4 above.

    I don't think the extra 10% will do much, but sure, I guess.
    mcfob said:


    Reduce cooldowns on all encounters, at least by 5 seconds each, preferably more

    Not happening, since the devs love to make everyone exactly the same with their "magnitude per second" formulas.
    mcfob said:


    add 20 percent crit sev buff to greater endurance

    I'd personally move the 20% Crit Severity buff to a DPS exclusive passives so the devs don't throw a fit at the tank path somehow being "broken" because it has +20% more Critical Severity.
    mcfob said:


    make combat superiority buff everything and increase movement to 20 percent

    Yes to global Combat Superiority buff (I'd actually want it to be a larger buff but for a shorter duration, like 15% for 6 seconds), no to the movement speed increase due to making Greater Endurance/Momentum redundant.
    mcfob said:


    get rid of arm pen requirement for crushing blows

    I'd personally change the requirement to work off of Strength, as in your % proc chance equals your Strength ability score (so 25 STR = 25% chance).

    Aside from getting rid of that stupid ArmorPen requirement, it makes the Strength ability score somewhat more relevant than being a way to trick the D&D diehards into thinking it's a 1:1 of the tabletop experience.

  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,352 Arc User


    ONSLAUGHT: even the slowest npc in the game can dodge that skill by moving 1 cm, same with griffon's wrath.. so I suggest maybe 1 sec stun while casting it..

    I'd also settle for just getting rid of that stupid 3rd hit animation and replacing it with the first hit's animation.

    Boring, yes, but at least you're not twiddling your thumbs while waiting for your character to stop looking like an idiot and wasting time that you could be attacking.


    Change our R1 (PS4, PC should be Tab) class mechanic 'seethe' to something like Barbarians rage. We still have the stamina and vengeance bar. Is the Vengeance bar above 50% we can press R1 (like Rage) and get 'Vengeful' . When we are vengeful the vengeance bar decreases by time like Barbarians Rage. 'Vengeful' don't increases our attack speed, like rage. That would be a boring copy of the Barbarian and would not match fighter playstyle with high encounter burst damage. 'Vengeful' would increase our recharge speed extremely like wizards overpowered daily. So that we can use our encounter powers non stop during 10 seconds. So we have our high burst damage.

    Ok, I can see this being interesting.




    And how we can fill our Vengeance bar? While shielding (R3) a small amount of stamina is converted into Vengeance. A much lower amount than with seethe now. So it refills the Vengeance bar completely in 40 seconds or something like that. But when getting hit while blocking, a much higher amount of stamina should be converted into vengeance.



    Well, you still run into the problem that by the time those 40 seconds pass and you actually get to do things, everyone else has gotten off 3-4 rotations' worth of encounters while you only got 1-2 rotations...

    Also, I fear you might make the class stupid for the people that play PvP if blocking attacks suddenly allowed you to just throw a bunch of encounters at the enemy.




    I think that would match fighters original playstyle (mod 15) very good. What do you think about that?



    Another idea than reducing cooldowns could be increasing (encounter) damage by 100% while being vengeful in these 10 seconds.

    Conqueror worked because the class actually had ways to force enemies to attack you and was designed to be a tank class. You do a good job of taking point and absorbing damage for your teammates, you deal more damage. Makes sense.

    Vengeance as a mechanic sucks in dungeons because you are going to have a tank that takes care of the "take damage from enemies" role, making it so the only other way to refill it being to take a dump on the toilet (and lose DPS because you aren't attacking).

    I doubt the 100% damage buff thing will sit well with the devs that tried their best to kill off most self buffs. Or the few people that do PvP having to stare down a class that suddenly has a bunch of attacks that all hit as hard as most classes' daily attacks (or having a daily attack that both knocks and hits twice as hard as most other classes' daily attacks).

  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 914 Arc User
    > @rjc9000 said:
    > Vengeance as a mechanic sucks in dungeons because you are going to have a tank that takes care of the "take damage from enemies" role, making it so the only other way to refill it being to take a dump on the toilet (and lose DPS because you aren't attacking).

    Changing the Dreadnaughts role from DPS to Tank would solve most if not all of the problems with the paragon mechanics.
    Let the barbarians have their DPS/Tank paragons, the paladins their Healer/Tank paragons and give the fighters the ability to build Hybrid Tank (Dreadnaught) / Tanky tank (Vanguard).
    In my opinion this would give tank class choice a lot more meaning than it currently has. It would also be a step away from the current Tank=Tank problem, where all tanks do the same (only real difference animations)

    It would be very interesting to hear @asterdahl opinion on the current state of tanks, as the M16 changes has been live for quite a while.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • bombarj2010bombarj2010 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited February 2020
    I agree with the idea of ending Griffons Wrath's useless third animation at the top ... it should be the main change for the next Fighter class balances ... by God ... it is extremely annoying you in the middle of the rotation to be thrown back because the boss or mob launched its simplest attack to contain it :s .... or because it managed to move no matter how short the distance ... because you are "forever" at the top preparing to give the third hit yet ...
    And Cleave should have the magnitude increased a little more ... maybe be the same magnitude as Reave ...
    But I would be very happy if I ended Griffons Wrath's third animation at the top ... :)
    Post edited by bombarj2010 on
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,352 Arc User
    edited February 2020
    wilbur626 said:




    Changing the Dreadnaughts role from DPS to Tank would solve most if not all of the problems with the paragon mechanics.

    Let the barbarians have their DPS/Tank paragons, the paladins their Healer/Tank paragons and give the fighters the ability to build Hybrid Tank (Dreadnaught) / Tanky tank (Vanguard).

    In my opinion this would give tank class choice a lot more meaning than it currently has. It would also be a step away from the current Tank=Tank problem, where all tanks do the same (only real difference animations)



    It would be very interesting to hear @asterdahl opinion on the current state of tanks, as the M16 changes has been live for quite a while.

    I half suggested this to you a while back in Mod 17 simply because the spec would be judged by the standards of doing damage as a tank class rather than a DPS (which was lackluster in 17 for a DPS, but would not be bad for a tank spec), in addition to the mechanic making sense for a tank role (get hit by enemies to do more damage = tank job, so you get rewarded for doing what you are supposed to do).

    I am planning on waiting and seeing how Mod 19's hypothetical rework would go, since what interests me the most is that, supposedly, they'll actually run a comb through of the class features/feats that nobody is using.
    noworries said:


    The next stage of class improvements would be taking the least used powers, whether that is an encounter, a class feature, a feat, etc., and deciding what to change to make it relevant. For some powers it will be just number adjustments to make it more viable. For others it would be pulling out the power and making a new one that fits in better with the class to make it a better option for players.

    And supposedly changing playstyles so we aren't forced to sit and hold At-wills because we don't have anything to do after unloading encounters though I doubt the stupid "sit and do nothing" mechanics are going away.


    And Brazen Slash should have the magnitude increased a little more ... maybe be the same magnitude as Reave ...
    But I would be very happy if I ended Griffons Wrath's third animation at the top ... :)

    Just saying, but taking Brazen Slash's magnitude down to Reave would actually be a nerf in damage, making its damage worse than Mod 16 era Brazen Slash (Reave currently sits at 45 mag, Brazen in Mod 16 was 55, so that would be -10 mag).

  • bombarj2010bombarj2010 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 17 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    wilbur626 said:




    Changing the Dreadnaughts role from DPS to Tank would solve most if not all of the problems with the paragon mechanics.

    Let the barbarians have their DPS/Tank paragons, the paladins their Healer/Tank paragons and give the fighters the ability to build Hybrid Tank (Dreadnaught) / Tanky tank (Vanguard).

    In my opinion this would give tank class choice a lot more meaning than it currently has. It would also be a step away from the current Tank=Tank problem, where all tanks do the same (only real difference animations)



    It would be very interesting to hear @asterdahl opinion on the current state of tanks, as the M16 changes has been live for quite a while.

    I half suggested this to you a while back in Mod 17 simply because the spec would be judged by the standards of doing damage as a tank class rather than a DPS (which was lackluster in 17 for a DPS, but would not be bad for a tank spec), in addition to the mechanic making sense for a tank role (get hit by enemies to do more damage = tank job, so you get rewarded for doing what you are supposed to do).

    I am planning on waiting and seeing how Mod 19's hypothetical rework would go, since what interests me the most is that, supposedly, they'll actually run a comb through of the class features/feats that nobody is using.
    noworries said:


    The next stage of class improvements would be taking the least used powers, whether that is an encounter, a class feature, a feat, etc., and deciding what to change to make it relevant. For some powers it will be just number adjustments to make it more viable. For others it would be pulling out the power and making a new one that fits in better with the class to make it a better option for players.

    And supposedly changing playstyles so we aren't forced to sit and hold At-wills because we don't have anything to do after unloading encounters though I doubt the stupid "sit and do nothing" mechanics are going away.


    And Brazen Slash should have the magnitude increased a little more ... maybe be the same magnitude as Reave ...
    But I would be very happy if I ended Griffons Wrath's third animation at the top ... :)

    Just saying, but taking Brazen Slash's magnitude down to Reave would actually be a nerf in damage, making its damage worse than Mod 16 era Brazen Slash (Reave currently sits at 45 mag, Brazen in Mod 16 was 55, so that would be -10 mag).
    In case I had a mistake when it came to writing ... I wanted to say Cleave instead of Brazen Slash ... I'll edit the post :)
  • demarw2#2749 demarw2 Member Posts: 70 Arc User
    I don't have a problem to wait and sit between using the encounter powers. High burst damage and no damage between that bursts was Conquerors playstyle in Mod 15. I really liked that. For me our At-Will powers are fine like they are. BUT: our encounter Powers need another buff to magnitudes around 1500. Or we need another tab mechanic, which allows that high burst damage. (Like suggested above)
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