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CDP Topic: Rewards & Progression

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  • regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 2,509 Arc User
    edited February 18
    1. content scaling should also equal reward scaling, meaning the rewards should at the very least be on the actual character level. the time i invest into dungeon/skirmish runs and what i get as rewards from it are simply not on the same page...

    2. most of the important event rewards should become account wide unlocks, and anything else from events that is character bound should become bound to account. with hopefully more fresh classes in the near NWO future, give us some help in getting new characters into shape for the latest module.

    3. guild strongholds should become more accessible to your whole playerbase. building up a low ranking but fully functional guild stronghold should be made easy for everyone. considering how long guild strongholds are in the game now, and how little has been done on this matter, i'd say it's high time for some real changes.
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
  • arkai#8115 arkai Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited February 18
    > @rainer#8575 said:
    > I've tried to make some sense of this topic - reading and trying to comprehend every idea that was proposed. Let me tell you - I feel for the developers who have to work through it - it is a lot.... I actually composed a condensed list of all ideas proposed and put those into.... well yes a spreadsheet are you happy now? :smile:
    > Feel free to check in and correct where I didn't get the correct idea or missed stuff.
    > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GwyrMjtnzzYmfFFy8_98el-Oe3PsTRtQRY1S5eiyync/edit#gid=1591820132
    >
    > I also added some comments on ideas and would like to build upon that further. Everyone is free to comment. Everyone replying on every separate comment on the forum is not a workable solution imho. We need a different structure.. Reddit was already proposed and there are some out of the box things we could use. This was my (temp) solution.


    Epic work !!rainer for community president!! if i was cris i give yu a superjob payed very well ...yu did a lot of us and for crypt too if they look at yu theyll find what they need for grow .....cheer
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 789 Arc User

    I've tried to make some sense of this topic - reading and trying to comprehend every idea that was proposed. Let me tell you - I feel for the developers who have to work through it - it is a lot.... I actually composed a condensed list of all ideas proposed and put those into.... well yes a spreadsheet are you happy now? :smile:
    Feel free to check in and correct where I didn't get the correct idea or missed stuff.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GwyrMjtnzzYmfFFy8_98el-Oe3PsTRtQRY1S5eiyync/edit#gid=1591820132

    I also added some comments on ideas and would like to build upon that further. Everyone is free to comment. Everyone replying on every separate comment on the forum is not a workable solution imho. We need a different structure.. Reddit was already proposed and there are some out of the box things we could use. This was my (temp) solution.

    Awesome work really. Very usefull for everyone. Thanks
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  • haden42eehaden42ee Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited February 18
    I promise that this will be my last post in this thread about rewarded mentoring. I believe we've spent quite enough time on the idea, I'm not looking to change anyone's mind without going *a lot* deeper into details on possible implementations. I respect everyone's right to oppose the idea for their own reasons, let's just move on.

    In the interest of rational discussion, I'm answering 3 points that I feel could benefit from my point of view. I'm not aiming to "win the argument" with these, so please disregard this post in the "getting the last word in" competition.

    Of that 10,000 people, I would hazard a guess and say maybe 200-300 of them would make a good teacher and I am being optimistic here (approximately 2-3% of the US population are teachers and of that, I would bet some of them are not good teachers).

    You and I have very different estimates on people's ability to mentor. In my 25+ years as IT professional and manager, maybe 10-15% of people I've worked with are "hopeless" when it comes to mentoring a new hire or temp. The rest are able to pleasantly surprise themselves once they get over the initial "Oh, I cannot possibly do that well enough" reaction.

    One of the things they said is that it didn't matter what they or the devs of Warframe tried, how many new tutorials they added and different methods they attempted, they could not raise the percentage of new players who stayed in the game after starting it. The conclusion they came to was that new players were not quitting due to insufficient hand holding or poor tutorials, they were quitting because they disliked some other aspect of the game and that the chances are, if someone likes the game enough starting out, they will end up looking up anything they need help with.

    This might be a valid argument - I lack data to make a case either way. I'm certain that it is valid as far as impersonal tutorials go. I'm *hoping* that genuine human interaction (which I'm guessing Warframe devs didn't try) would achieve significantly better results.
    oremonger said:

    My main question for you is why you think there needs to be a reward for mentoring? Exactly what kind of reward are you aiming for? Surely you don't want more rAD, RP or XP. IMO it should in no way be the "Most rewarding" in the sense of actual physical rewards.

    Let me try to spell out my reasoning: Neverwinter needs to grow its player base if it is to survive and prosper. Probably grow significantly more than the total number of players who have left the game - this means a lot of brand new players, not only returning players. There are 3 different choices for dealing with these new players:
    1. Go on as before. Some of them here and there get contacted and helped out by a volunteer, but there's no support system, so unknown (and un-measured) percentage of them are left to fend for themselves.
    2. Have developers build more tutorials, guides, and pass/fail tests for what amounts to an automated learning funnel. @thefabricant has very clearly made an argument against chances of that succeeding.
    3. We try something that (to my knowledge) hasn't been attempted by any MMO. We the players step up in significant numbers (partly due to the rewards, partly because it'll now be the normal thing to do - others are doing it, so I shall as well). By bringing meaningful human interaction as close to the starting point as possible, we aim to get more new players hooked. Because it'll be supported by the rewards system, the effect can be tracked and measured.
    Post edited by haden42ee on
  • hastur905hastur905 Member Posts: 129 Arc User

    Mentoring is a good idea in theory but a bad idea in practice.

    Who can be the mentor? Anyone? Does it need to pass the test? If anyone can be a teacher, our education system will collapse in record time if not already.

    Does the mentor need to be "re-certified"? Do every veterans/mentors know all the in and out of a new mod and new change? Do they need to go back to the old content to figure out what was changed? Do they need to re-run a new character to update their knowledge?

    Besides, teaching is not just about knowledge and the most important part is the teaching skill and personality.
    My mother was a teacher. My daughter is a teacher. I know that I could not be a teacher although I consider I am more knowledgeable than both of them. I actually tried once in the early days (teaching one IT course in a small college) and failed badly.

    You are a 25+ year IT profession and manager and good in teaching/mentoring. Also, you hired good people and wouldn't hire bad people.
    I am a 30+ year IT profession and manager and really suck in teaching/mentoring.

    I find this logic confusing, because I am unable or incapable of doing BLANK, then no one should be recognized for doing BLANK. My assumption is that the problem seems to be if there was a reward or recognition of some sort attached and you will be unable to attain it, therefore nobody should. Try inserting "1st to complete DUNGEON", "Dungeon Delver", or any other title or recognition for completion in the game besides "Mentor" in the BLANK, is it any different? To quote a wise man "Do or not do, there is no try"
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,202 Arc User
    edited February 18
    hastur905 said:

    Mentoring is a good idea in theory but a bad idea in practice.

    Who can be the mentor? Anyone? Does it need to pass the test? If anyone can be a teacher, our education system will collapse in record time if not already.

    Does the mentor need to be "re-certified"? Do every veterans/mentors know all the in and out of a new mod and new change? Do they need to go back to the old content to figure out what was changed? Do they need to re-run a new character to update their knowledge?

    Besides, teaching is not just about knowledge and the most important part is the teaching skill and personality.
    My mother was a teacher. My daughter is a teacher. I know that I could not be a teacher although I consider I am more knowledgeable than both of them. I actually tried once in the early days (teaching one IT course in a small college) and failed badly.

    You are a 25+ year IT profession and manager and good in teaching/mentoring. Also, you hired good people and wouldn't hire bad people.
    I am a 30+ year IT profession and manager and really suck in teaching/mentoring.

    I find this logic confusing, because I am unable or incapable of doing BLANK, then no one should be recognized for doing BLANK. My assumption is that the problem seems to be if there was a reward or recognition of some sort attached and you will be unable to attain it, therefore nobody should. Try inserting "1st to complete DUNGEON", "Dungeon Delver", or any other title or recognition for completion in the game besides "Mentor" in the BLANK, is it any different? To quote a wise man "Do or not do, there is no try"
    Not sure how you come to your logic. There is only one question: how to certify someone can mentor.
    If they can figure that out and actually works, I have no problem with it.
    The worst thing of the education system is: bad teacher is worse than no teacher.

    There are many good mentors in the game already and they are doing good job.
    I have no problem seeing they are rewarded for their good effort and heart.
    The last thing I want to see is their reputation be damaged by or be labelled with a bunch of bad mentors.

    By the way, that wise man was Yoda and the audience was Luke to use his mind to move a rock.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 512 Arc User
    Minor Suggestion: Now that Appearance system has been in place for awhile... how about incorporating a 1 GP cost for adding to the appearance library. This wont break anyones bank, but the net affect will make gold more important to game economy. (The increase to gold value makes gold more rewarding, which is the tie-in to this topic)
  • cwhitesidedev#9752 cwhitesidedev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 245 Cryptic Developer

    Awesome to see folks already in with their top 3! What a pleasant surprise as I have for the last few days been taking a break to spend time with family and friends (I will be properly catching up tomorrow).



    Meanwhile........



    PHASE 3 PHASE 3 PHASE 3



    Welcome to Phase 3 of the Rewards and Progression.



    In Phase 3 having read the discussion we list our top 3 ideas from the CDP along with brief reasoning and any necessary commentary for each idea. Both Fabricant and Willow have done good examples of this on Page 19 and 20.





    Chris

    BUMP and I/we will be catching up today and tomorrow.

    Chris

  • fluffy6977fluffy6977 Member Posts: 289 Arc User
    edited February 18
    Top 3
    1. Account wide collections for mounts, companions, artifacts, fashion and artifact sets. Allow players to purchase an unlock for Zen/Ad to redeem items from the collection.
    *Refinement to idea based on feedback: All redeemed items should work similarly to the currently reclaimable Heart of the Red Dragon in the dragonborn pack (Character bound, not sellable, nor able to be broken down for RP, can only be equipped, unequipped, upgraded or discarded). Collections unlocks would have to be changed to unlock on equip only.

    2. Rework boons to offer feat-like effects, horizontal progression.

    3. More unbound items in chest rewards. Replace chest rerolls to make it happen, maybe with a currency where you can get one character bound Legendary Dragon Key fragment per char per day, exchange 5 for a Legendary Dragon Key or something like that so it doesn't feel like VIP owners are getting shafted.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 790 Arc User
    edited February 19
    haden42ee said:


    3. We try something that (to my knowledge) hasn't been attempted by any MMO. We the players step up in significant numbers (partly due to the rewards, partly because it'll now be the normal thing to do - others are doing it, so I shall as well). By bringing meaningful human interaction as close to the starting point as possible, we aim to get more new players hooked. Because it'll be supported by the rewards system, the effect can be tracked and measured.


    Mentoring system is known and used in various mmorpg games for like 15+ years.
    Mentor/Game advisor are group of volunteers who provide help to new players, either can be official(staff supported) team or even unofficial mentor groups. (staff do not provide any assit).

    Also, in some games are GM(Game Master), who walk arround game world, answer to players help requests(either error/glitch or need some guidace where look for information. Also these GM's may run some mini events(toss coin/roll dice, hide & seek, spawn event monster and so one).
    Gm's can be one of staff member, either dev or from support team or even hired person who work as GM.

    I can give you10 pages long lecture about what GM's and GA(game advisor/mentors) do and what they don't. Also these GM's and GA's Systems benefits and downsides and explotations in their outcomes.
    What type players are best/preffered for Mentor system and which ones are not.

    IF you haven't encountered before, thats not mean that there is no such system. :)
    ===================================================

    Now for Topic.

    When comes proffesions and crafted gear viability, I will not mention in this thread, cuz proffesions itself is large topic and it should be in separated CDP.

    As for progression and rewards
    1) clean up reward/loot table from outated/irrelevant items.

    2) Each campaing should have own gear sets which grant extra effects to campaing realated game content.
    As example, Unederdark campaing have Drow gear parts.
    Which increase resist and damage boost in underdark related game content(trial/skirmish/dungeon).
    While outside campaing area/content provided just raw stats.

    By making each campaing sets benefits bound to their campaing areas, we remove so called Best In Slot thing.
    Cuz they may be BiS for x area, they may be less viable in other campaing realated areas.

    WIth that, old gear parts become/remain viable. Same goes for proffesion.

    3) Account wide invoke. Thats explain itself.



    And extra, now probably no player here are ware about one important thing.

    In last 5 days I revisited my previously played mmorpg games, and compared some of system and how game rewading players.
    Neverwinter way over rewarding players.

    When reward are obtained easily, then it's value decline. And no one need low value/worthless rewards.
    You want best gear parts or more higher chance to obtain it, then you must fight in harder mode dungeons. :)

    Best regards: Hades
    Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on

    When shouts of arogance and selfishness stops, you can hear the whispers of truth and honesty.

  • kir4me8604#8436 kir4me8604 Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    My fourth of six posts are Stronghold Activity Rewards.

    Feedback Overview (short description of the proposed feedback) for Stronghold Activity Rewards

    My feedback suggestions will focus on the quality of the rewards given for completing the following strongold activities: stronghold quests, heroic encounters, dragonflight, and stronghold marauders.

    Proposed feedback:

    Stronghold Quests
    - Add Minor Food, Wood, Stone, and Metal Vouchers as possible rewards to all relevant daily Stronghold quests.
    - Increase the amount of Shards rewarded from 10-15 shards to maybe 50 shards.


    Heroic Encounters
    - Add Minor Vouchers to the Major Heroics Drop Tables
    - Add Basic Vouchers to the Epic Heroic Drop Tables


    Dragonflight
    - Remove the outdated Dragonflight gear and Fang of the Dragonflight currency
    - Allow players to open 1 free Strongbox per day with the completion of the Dragonflight event.


    Stronghold Marauders
    - Add Epic Vouchers to the Drop Tables and adjust the amount gained to the number of waves completed.

    Feedback Goal (what this feedback would target and accomplish)

    The goal is to establish offer meaning rewards for time spent grinding contributions to the guild coffers. As the game sits currently, these activities are not rewarding players with enough or any substantial rewards. This feedback targets new and veteran players that are part of a guild.

    Guilds are having to rely on AD purchases from the auction house, and take advantage of sales on the PSN store to buy and advance their Stronghold. Ex: Stronghold chest of power, Epic vouchers, or other items to donate.

    Risks & Concerns
    - Risk: It could affect the auction house and zen market.
    - Mitigation: Either set a daily limit or account bound drops (non-tradable)

    This is just my suggestion based on my experience in Neverwinter so far. Next post from me will cover Leveling Up & Over-leveling.
  • froger#9967 froger Member Posts: 281 Arc User
    Thanks rainer for making the spreadsheet. Without it I wouldn’t have bothered with this thread because it is simply too long.

    My top three items (some are merged) in no particular order:

    Slow down the leveling process and have each zone unlock the next successive zone while streamlining content.

    Multiple difficulty levels of dungeons. I thought about this driving home last night. I’d like to see a story (training) dungeon, dungeon appropriate for the level in the campaign progression, and a version with evolving difficulty each mod. Rewards being appropriate for each. For the evolving difficulty I’d like to see changing rewards unique to each dungeon which are desirable for the current mod (even fragments to build [restore] an item).

    Gear progression [upgrades] being incorporated to profession progression. I don’t necessarily think profession progression should be easier.

    There really are too many suggestions here to narrow it down to any three. With all this feedback, CDPs focused on specific areas mentioned in the thread are needed.
    Froger - Barbie Girl in a Barbie World - Main in spirit only - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
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    Magnus - Fighter - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
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  • vandelay#6554 vandelay Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    I'm hesitant to if I'm entitled to post because I don't really play anymore but since I've read most of the CDP I figured I might as well have a go and share my point of view.
    First I want to compliment all the contributors in here. So many awesome suggestions!
    Secondly, I'm not going to apologize for not being a native english speaker but it may explain my choice of words ;)

    1. Feat/power/boon - structure. Revise the progression through a revised skill-tree.
    Introduce more choice, MUCH more choice so that players can feel unique. I don't agree with the common perception
    that choices should be limited because it will cause imbalance. Why should POE set the bar and WHY should we accept defeat without even trying?
    2. Make the gear valid or remove it. By just increasing the damage of old weapon-sets they would be valid again and give players more choice and a reason to revisit SKT or EDEMO as an example. Progression can then be in upgrading the sets with professions as many ppl have suggested.
    3. Give unique rewards in all qued content. The rewards can be ingredients to professions, artefacts, companions, etc.

    HOWEVER, its not the feats, the gear nor the rewards or crafting that make Neverwinter great to me! Lots of other games provide better alternatives if that is what I'm looking for.
    I will make the claim that the one thing that stands, and really stands tall against any other game (in the mmorpg genre) out there is (or was) the combat. I'm also sad to admit that I don't find the combat fun or engaging anymore and nothing in the roadmap or from the stream gives me any indication that this is being considered. I think its a mistake to reduce players to heal/tank/dps and I would love to see this addressed in a CDP real soon.

    Best of luck and thank you for your time!
  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Member Posts: 176 Arc User
    edited February 19
    My top 3 biggest issues (spoilers for details to keep headings clear and concise) :

    1. Overall lack, on the communty scale, of "light" interdependencies/bridges between the various activities available ingame.
    One exemple is the current complete decorrelation between crafts and dungeons runs, whereas in my opinion each should reciprocally create and feed at the same time the need of the other on a community scale [but none of the two should be completely mandatory from a 1 single player perspective].
    Other areas of the game may also have potential to explore in this matter.


    2. Dead professions. Quick/immediate obsolescence and irrelevancy of all the craftable equipments + lack of really interesting consumables as a constant and repeatable interest in professions. See above the point 1.
    Though I have no doubt it's already done like that, relevancy of equipments should be discussed upstream, during the conceptualization of what a future new item for a new module should do or bring as new (or standard, or as a comeback) for the players.
    Quick consulting of users opinions about some (obviouly not all, because surprises ^^) "theorical" future equipment concepts, way ahead of the beta can be, an idea to avoid some instant irrelevancies (especially about item/set special bonus). [whatever the process is, though I think presenting the "philosophy" of one item concept and ask if it seems, on the paper, "too good/balanced/bad" sort of poll, closed to argumentation, can be enough].
    Normal obsolescence of equipments is inevitable, making crafted endproduct equipments useless or even produce at an extreme loss. There are plenty of ideas to dig in or try in order to revive/recycle in a certain extent some of the "at this day" useless endproduct. Probably no perfect solution though ^^


    3. Lack of diversity or spaces for creativity, and lost of the feeling to be able, as players, to somewhat make NWO our "own" game/world (no matter how it is expressed concretely, as there are as many forms of "appropriation" as there are players) which is an inside rewarding feeling. Especially since the Foundry is gone + mod16 simplifications in some fields.
    It's a hairy issue and finding where to begin, so we players would feel great enhancement, may be totally impossible.
    Obviously, if we put aside the human player creativity factor (RP, foundry, peer-2-peer interactions, etc), everything in the game has to be finite.
    Chess (or Go) may appeared to provide an infinite universe of possible "new" different chessgames, but it is faked : it is only an enormous finite tree/arborescence of possible moves, though quite incommensurable for a human mind (and even current computers, though they are now stronger than humans ^^).

    The fact is plenty of people want, consciently or not, to be (or at least to feel) unique.
    As it stands currently, and that's only my personnal opinion, i feel like another clone in the meta, another toon clone in the build, another clone in my "choices", another clone in my activities, etc, even if i'm always hard trying by myself before picking infos elsewhere.
    We don't look the same in game (thanks ! at least the appearance tab allows for a nice diversity, I can very much admit this to be quite well done !), but beside that... The rest is kind of a monotonous path paved and walked the same by everyone, without many (if any) crossing-roads (not even faked one), without many wild trail, without much space for creativity or excentricity, and that is slowly killing my gamer mood.
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 423 Arc User
    edited February 19
    Just an idea that crossed my mind in another thread, thought I'd put it here as it seems relevant.

    Overview

    People have been asking for "hardcore" version of dungeons and corresponding "training" versions. The "story-mode" version they announced in the stream on the roadmap is a good idea for content that is designed to be very difficult, but not appropriate for every trial or dungeon that we have.

    People often complain about scaling. One argument is that it takes away any progression we've made once the content has been out for 2 mods, and is counter-productive in a game that is all about progression. I agree with this argument, but I also agree that there is a good percentage of the playerbase for which much of the content is just too easy and some of those want more difficulty, but the caveat is that they also want better rewards.


    The Idea:

    1) Remove scaling on all dungeons/trials.
    2) Use the k-team tech to implement a "hardcore" version of the dungeons/trials which includes scaling to minimum ilvl and another few k ilvl above.
    3) Give extra rewards when completing a dungeon in hardcore mode which correlate with the average completion time and completion rates for the difficulty settings that were applied for the specific dungeon/trial.
    4) Introduce a setting that scales monsters/bosses up. When gating chase items behind difficulty, the gate would consist of settings that scaled enemies up to a certain level, and players down to the maximum i-level (stat-levels) that was (were) attainable when that content was released.
    5) Content (dungeons/trials/skirmishes) will be designed to have an easier base difficulty level in unscaled versions, in essence, be designed such that the base difficulty level at the time of release, is the "story-mode" version.

    The extra rewards can been extra bonus RAD/AD, chance at rare drops (new or old), and tokens used in a store with items like the ones in the seasonal pvp store and legacy campaign stores. This could be the same "super store" people have been talking about.

    In a nutshell, move scaling into the tunable difficulty settings (i.e. k-team mode) for dungeons and give extra/better rewards based on these settings.

    This would:
    Pro:
    1) Solve the problem people have with scaling, giving value to progression to everyone who is not "end-game".
    2) Give end-gamers options to tune their difficulty level and rewards, as well as giving more long-term value to the tech k-team introduced.
    3) Give a sort of "training" version of old content that wouldn't be difficult without scaling, a sort of freebie for the devs.
    4) Could make "story-mode" versions of dungeons/trials unnecessary if the content is designed to be easier for a wider population of the playerbase, and the "k-team/hardcore" mode (tunable difficulty settings) increased or unlocked chances at (currency for) certain chase items (i.e. you can still gate chase items behind difficulty).
    5) Utilizing the settings for scaling enemies up, and players down as stated in Idea: 4) chase items would forever be gated behind a certain difficulty level.


    Con:
    1) After several iterations of vertical progression, any story-mode versions of difficult content would likely be redundant with the unscaled version. This could be an alternative to story-mode versions depending on how fast the iterations of vertical progression were released, however I get the impression that this is going to be slowed down, which means that it would likely take a year or two for the story mode-version to become redundant (ie with slow enough vertical progression cycles, it's not so much of a con). However, see point 4) in Pro, needing a story-mode version of an instance at all, is directly dependent on the base difficulty level that an instance is designed to have.
    Post edited by quickfoot#7851 on

  • hoveristhoverist Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    @rainer#8575 you misunderstood me. Idea #4. I did not mean deletion of all the resources, and the preservation of relevant resources in crafting. to exclude the presence of favorite resources in current recipes.
  • rainer#8575 rainer Member Posts: 205 Arc User
    hoverist said:

    @rainer#8575 you misunderstood me. Idea #4. I did not mean deletion of all the resources, and the preservation of relevant resources in crafting. to exclude the presence of favorite resources in current recipes.

    I saw your comment indeed. So you mean the recipes should be changed/balanced more so that all resources are equally attractive?
This discussion has been closed.