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CDP Topic: Rewards & Progression

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  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Member Posts: 176 Arc User
    edited February 15
    Ok, i was at the roadmap (listen to Galactic Underwear review of it), and my dreamer head engine starts to pur.
    I take the roadmap more as a general path the devs will roughly follow. So order, dates, items/subjects, we see inside the roadmap may change tomorrow, because objectives or priorities (or emergencies) can change over the time (my IRL job some years ago was supply chain manager in mold/plastic injection, from supplier to production/subcontractor to client, so hell yeah, week planning in monday afternoon was often quite different the next wednesday morning ^^).



    2020/09 Masterwork new reciepes <=> 2020/11 Existing dungeons rework

    This two things were already widely debated in this CDP topic, but from my perspective, there is a link between each other.
    In some dungeons and trials you are sometimes, on bosses or in the chest, looting ingredients involved in some craft (outdated) recipes if i'm correct. (i think FBI, Demogorgon and MSP are in this category ?). Why not expanding the idea ?

    Here is an exemple (because it's not cristal clear in my head at the moment, and it's easier to show it this way). I'm sorry though it's a bit redondant with what i posted earlier, with just one more idea behind :

    - New mastercraft reciepes : overload ultimate reinforcements (temporary model of overload enchants, really more powerful than reinforcement we have currently, erase/destroy the current reinforcement on the equipement if any and even if it's a perma-one),
    - Ingredients : 5x A, 5x B, 5x C, 5x D (or any number, as long as there are even
    - You can find A only in MC, B only in ToNG, C only in eToS, D only in CR. So each dungeon has one exclusive ingredient, and maybe not too hard (or rare) to loot.

    balance on how much reinforcements devs would want to be created or in circulation may be achieved by tuning how long the "temporary" ultimate reinforcement last to compare with the average completion of a set of 5x these 4 dungeons, and put the slider a bit off that (the timer deplete way before you can achieve all the runs to get enough ingredients for exemple as it is more intended to be use for hard content [endgame or not, depending on the level of the player involved :P]), or by playing on quantity needed in the reciepe or the RNG on the droprate.

    As a crafter for myself only (or my guild) i may want to run regulary those dungeons to get what i need to craft my own reinforcements (or guildmates one). As a big fan of crafting, with plenty of time to craft, i may want to buy those ingredients in the AH to try mass-producing and make AD as a "final product" supplier while pulling the raw-material market. As a dungeon runner not interested in craft, I can maybe see those ingredients as valuable thing to loot inside the dungeon so i can sell on AH and make AD as a "raw material"-supplier, but also pulling the reinforcement market as i still want the reinforcements too. And has these reinforcement are temporary, the demand would probably stay up.

    *head scratching* I'm trying to figure out in which category of player I would really fall herei, probably in all depending of the month and the wind :P.

    Theorically, AH value of each ingredient should be the same, as they are equally needed, but dungeons are not the same length or difficulty, or some are more interesting in their mechanics/fun, which would led to unbalance in supply between ingredients. Which kind of autocorrect itself => rarefication of one compared to others would make the rarest one price to rise (normally, i'm not so good in supply-demand in market theory :P), hence more appealing to run the only dungeon where you can loot it.
    It may be better to look at this idea with "historical" dungeons in mind (old ones) rather than imply in this system the new last fresh one released.

    I'm not entirely sure of the validity or the interest this "old-school" style has and if it would or could work well or make sense in NWO.

    From my perspective, and as a general guideline, synergies between different activities (in this matter dungeonning-AH-crafting) always enhance the dynamism inside a community of players, especially when a circular self driving concept is involved and well done. Completely separating the activities, and you are splitting people from each other. The "endgamer-clan", the "crafter-clan", the "newbie-clan", "the RP-clan", the "plenty of IRL money-clan", "the "plenty of playtime-clan" etc....
    I wish i can have the best idea of the world about that (i will never :P), but i'm quite sure win-win relation can be created, be it direct or indirect (or even invisible, lurking surreptitiously), and i believe it should create a more healthy overall ambiance which is really important for a MMORPG to have a retention factor, reputation or "newbie friendly" attraction-pull. At the end, the more you keep and/or the more you attract, as long the balance is positive with people who leave, the more potential wallets can be opened to toss a coin or two in the game ;).

    These words are just here as a starting point (good or bad xD), to take or not, and try to open on other ideas/development/critical examinations.
    Post edited by tchefi#6735 on
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 785 Arc User
    edited February 15
    I did read all the posts, and still I cant understand how can be bad for the game a system that rewards people for helping others.
    Assuming that rewards arent overwhelming, I cant see how it would be bad or someone would be against it.

    In the opposite, having something like that would help a lot player retention wich I assume is one of the top priorities of the game.

    As for rewards and progression I wont enter in more details, lots of very good ideas were described here but I will make a resume of things that I should like in regard to this topic:

    - Every dungeon having usefull rewards and unique
    - Crafting / dungeoneering / progressing should have sinergies, so players need items from duneons to craft, and crafted items are needed to improve unique items in dungeons or create the item you want
    - Horizontal progression as a priority with vertical progression not being abused 1 per year or some event items
    - Enchants should be a big part of the stats, not like now, and a secure value over time.
    - All the enchants should be viable, allowing new builds
    - Character features and feats and boons should be much more relevant, allowing different builds and should make players think on what you pick. Now in most cases you must think what to pick between lots of bad options, usually not making much of a difference.
    - The market should have as much items BoE as it can, even if some players can buy powerfull items from the market with some exceptions, but I dont think this is bad for the game because it closes the cycle between players with lot of time with no money and players with not much time but willing to spend money.
    - A mentoring system (100 % optional) with some rewards to players that help others. No idea about how this could be implemented in a way that is not abusable.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
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    Undermontain Survivor
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 869 Arc User

    I did read all the posts, and still I cant understand how can be bad for the game a system that rewards people for helping others.
    Assuming that rewards arent overwhelming, I cant see how it would be bad or someone would be against it.

    In the opposite, having something like that would help a lot player retention wich I assume is one of the top priorities of the game.

    I dont think anyone said there are strictly against a mentoring system that has rewards. Ppl just did dislike the idea of a mentoring system beeing the most rewarding thing in the game.
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 785 Arc User
    tom#6998 said:

    I did read all the posts, and still I cant understand how can be bad for the game a system that rewards people for helping others.
    Assuming that rewards arent overwhelming, I cant see how it would be bad or someone would be against it.

    In the opposite, having something like that would help a lot player retention wich I assume is one of the top priorities of the game.

    I dont think anyone said there are strictly against a mentoring system that has rewards. Ppl just did dislike the idea of a mentoring system beeing the most rewarding thing in the game.
    Then we all agree :)
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
    Undermontain Survivor
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,009 Arc User
    edited February 16
    My top three.


    1.
    Mastercraft should be kept relevant and rewarding. all tiers should have some kept relevance to the newest level of mastercraft (ie the old crafted items should have some part of the build of new items. neverembers super cereal hat mw5 should have gold wire cerulean dye and jute macrame as well as( kobolt leather and demon sinew mw5)



    2.a
    Scaling to be removed from the player and instead put in the dungeons themselves and all dungeons made level 80 other than a couple levelling dungeons. Tiered dungeons with rewards commiserate with the level they are intended for. Ie. Malabogs fresh level 80s that give some gear that will make them strong enough to run Valindras or some introductory pet or mount gear. moving up to the most recent dungeons that keep relevant more end game centric rewards. (recent dungeons not scaled. just kept where they were when they were released)

    2.B
    Dungeons need a better reward tree if scaling isn't removed. If scaling stays in place all dungeons should have the same rewards other than the newest dungeon. it would be nice if something could be done to make things that drop now have some retained value. Ie sinks for old artifacts and enchantments and rp. and those things taken out of modern lockboxes. Ideally lockboxes could be reworked to be like they used to be.

    3. ???? there are a number of things here. like boons and campaigns but this is an area that I have a lot of respect towards complaining about because it seems like a lot of times when these are reworked they end up a lot worse than now. I'd like more trees and value in character building. right now most toons have one path they can take. lots of choices that aren't really a choice.
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  • grey#8986 grey Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    My top three are;

    Masterwork; create distinction in masterwork rewards such as through set bonuses or distinct stats. Increase the range of rewards such as companion gear. Keep masterwork relevant such as via complex and challenging upgrading processes.

    Boons; Make boons more interesting to choose, which creates character distinction/more options.

    RNG and rewards; allow for a purchasing system where after X number of attempts you can purchase an item e.g. after 200 zok boxes you can purchase one piece of 1010 companion gear that you have not yet got.

    Some Archers are Imaginary....
  • roadkill#6177 roadkill Member Posts: 247 Arc User
    edited February 16
    What about implementing a mechanism to trade Coins and Currency with the game and with other players (ie. Gold to Astral Diamonds, but perhaps other currencies also)?

    I don't know the details but it seems like 4th Edition (PHB, Chapter 7, Page 212) has a currency structure where Coins and Currency can be traded, from Copper < Silver < Gold < Platinum < Astral Diamonds, where 1,000,000 Copper : 10,000 Gold : 1 Astral Diamond. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8Blhc7UBgftLXhyTFQ5MkJxV0k/edit?pli=1

    It looks like 5th edition removed Astral Diamonds (PHB, Chapter 5, Page 143). https://online.anyflip.com/ofsj/cxmj/mobile/index.html#p=134
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,546 Arc User
    edited February 16

    I did read all the posts, and still I cant understand how can be bad for the game a system that rewards people for helping others.
    Assuming that rewards arent overwhelming, I cant see how it would be bad or someone would be against it.

    snip...

    For me, the main concern would be the fact that "people helping others" shouldn't need any sort of legislative procedure to happen.
    (It really should be an obvious process of Enlightened Self Interest that more players who are better equipped both literally and figuratively, can only be good for the longevity of the game. But "What about ME? How does more and better players help ME? Right NOW? It's about ME remember!" is far more common than "common" sense.)

    If the rewards for mentoring are not significant, why would people be more likely to do it than they are now?
    If they ARE significant, what prevents people from a) just getting together with pals, creating short lived accounts and "mentoring" each other's disposable toons for free stuff, and b) pestering the living HAMSTER out of genuine new players?

    I remember when I first started playing and wasn't ready to throw in with any particular group of players, but joined a guild simply because I was sick to death of constantly being pinged in PE by guild invitations.

    I'm not saying mentoring for rewards is a bad idea per se, just that rewarding people for their involvement in other peoples' progression more than the satisfaction of just being a decent human being, could be a dangerous path to tread unless it's very carefully thought through beforehand.

    Many people don't see the "New Player Bonus" as a reward for helping new players finish content for the first time, they see it as compensation for being slowed down on their run. And THAT is the mindset you have to overcome.
    Post edited by mordekai#1901 on
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,546 Arc User
    My top 3.

    1. Legacy Rewards are a mess. Too many out of date currencies and reward structures tied to legacy campaigns. Reduce the number of currencies per campaign to just a couple, impose daily/weekly limits on one to manage speed of progress. Allow currencies to be used to buy updated and relevant items for Higher Level development, subsequent to campaign completion (including Professions Ingredients and Guild Coffer donations). Should be updated and restructured to allow relevant rewards to be farmed in those areas to assist with the two following points.

    2. Guild Level is too closely tied to Progression at End Game. With fewer new players, and a plethora of L20 Guilds offering open access for zero contribution, smaller guilds do not have the capacity to maintain a healthy enough end game base to farm the necessary vast quantities of resources needed. The Guild Boons, and access to Master Crafting are just too much of an incentive. The safest resolution to this is to increase the availability of the harder to gain requirements, meaning that lower level Guilds still have to graft for their growth, but aren't faced with insurmountable odds in achieving this.
    Problems with resolving this include; People who got Guild Bonuses for nothing don't want lose them, and the people who actually worked hard to get them for their Guild don't want other Guilds to be given them for what they see as less effort than they put in.

    3. Professions were forgotten basically 5 minutes after they landed in Mod 15, most notably Master Work/Craft/whatever... The whole system needs to be taken care of. Do NOT "fix" this by simply dumping a tonne of new ingredients into new charts and add new tiers of Master Crafting.
    Fix the progression system so that anyone who is capable of doing MC can have access to it, and not just those in high end guilds.
    You have a Workshop Quest Tree. Add MC to THAT rather than the Stronghold. Or put a separate guy in the Stronghold and have them offer an alternative route or additional rewards. Unlock MC from behind the Guild Gate.
    Try and be creative with new recipes rather than just adding higher IL gear that will be outdated before 90%+ of the player base get anywhere near able to make it. I know the argument is that "Mastercrafting is for the elite at the top end" which probably should be the case, but, (if that is to be the intended case) until the standard Professions offer anything worth having, "Professions" is as good as dead to anyone coming new to the game. All that grind just to eventually unlock a harder grid, to unlock another... etc, one day maybe getting to a point somewhere down the line where you make something truly worth the effort...


    I don't care whether these issues are fixed Horizontally, Vertically or tangentially off the interior of an inverted curve...
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 785 Arc User

    Questions re: rewards for mentoring.
    " when t

    I did read all the posts, and still I cant understand how can be bad for the game a system that rewards people for helping others.
    Assuming that rewards arent overwhelming, I cant see how it would be bad or someone would be against it.

    snip...

    For me, the main concern would be the fact that "people helping others" shouldn't need any sort of legislative procedure to happen.
    (It really should be an obvious process of Enlightened Self Interest that more players who are better equipped both literally and figuratively, can only be good for the longevity of the game. But "What about ME? How does more and better players help ME? Right NOW? It's about ME remember!" is far more common than "common" sense.)

    If the rewards for mentoring are not significant, why would people be more likely to do it than they are now?
    If they ARE significant, what prevents people from a) just getting together with pals, creating short lived accounts and "mentoring" each other's disposable toons for free stuff, and b) pestering the living HAMSTER out of genuine new players?

    I remember when I first started playing and wasn't ready to throw in with any particular group of players, but joined a guild simply because I was sick to death of constantly being pinged in PE by guild invitations.

    I'm not saying mentoring for rewards is a bad idea per se, just that rewarding people for their involvement in other peoples' progression more than the satisfaction of just being a decent human being, could be a dangerous path to tread unless it's very carefully thought through beforehand.

    Many people don't see the "New Player Bonus" as a reward for helping new players finish content for the first time, they see it as compensation for being slowed down on their run. And THAT is the mindset you have to overcome.
    I perfectly understand what you are saying but:

    There are people actually helping new players, even if they arent rewarded for that. If you reward this players in a way that is not worth for other people to create new accounts or cheat the system, what would change?

    Just tose people get something for that, like some players got for example the icosaedrum stone as a reward for doing foundry maps. Did all the people foundry maps to get that stone? no because that stone was more like a tittle and not a BIS item.

    Is just an example, you can give little rewards for doing something that helps the game player retention without having major problems.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
    Undermontain Survivor
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 869 Arc User
    haden42ee said:



    Reason 4: This will change the most efficient way of playing the game.
    Response: YES! That is EXACTLY the point. Game as a whole does not benefit from closed BiS player groups running hardest content by themselves, for themselves. If it was more efficient to balance time-to-completion of dungeon/trial with bringing along less seasoned players, the know-how and skills would spread out, eventually helping many players improve their game due to trickle-down effect.

    question:

    what is the Point of endgame content, if the best rewards are gotten by helping newer players getting startet?
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 869 Arc User
    edited February 16
    haden42ee said:



    Reason 6: Mentoring should be a calling, done for ideological reasons only. Adding rewards will somehow cheapen it.
    Rebuttal: By the same argument, teachers and artists in real life should not be paid for their work. Unless you're actually successfully making that argument in real life, it cannot be applied in here.

    In real live, ppl need to make a living in order to survive, so not paying teachers would lead to nobody beeing able to fullfill that role. Neverwinter is a game you play in your free time for enjoyment (atleast thats what most ppl do i think) so your wellbeeing (getting food, or a place to live) doesnt depend on you getting something for teaching others. There are alot of ppl that are perfectly fine, using their free time to teach others, because they enjoy it. I have no problem with mentoring having a reward tied to it. but that analogy doenst hold much water imo.
    And if you want to stick to real live analogies, teaching isnt the most effcient way to make money in real live. I dont think that has anything to do with neverwinter and how we should handle things in a video game tough.
  • haden42eehaden42ee Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 61 Arc User
    tom#6998 said:

    what is the Point of endgame content, if the best rewards are gotten by helping newer players getting startet?

    What is the point of endgame content now?

    To answer your question: I have *never* stated that mentoring would completely replace completing endgame content. Mentor who doesn't practice cannot teach. However, Mentor Points should provide a more efficient boost (increased odds with RNG, progression multiplier with seals-type progress tracking, etc.) than repetitive clears with no teaching involved.
  • haden42eehaden42ee Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited February 16

    @haden42ee
    The fact that none of us found a practical application except rainer and that was tangent to the subject should make you wonder if we are not wishing here for -world peace-kind of ideal.
    The most probable outcome of this idea if it should be implemented is that most players when asked something can now in good conscience respond - get a mentor.
    You externalize a social service and can look in real life how that goes.
    .

    You've made it admirably clear that you see no (applicable) benefit in discussing this idea further. Consider your position duly noted.
  • groo#6243 groo Member Posts: 76 Arc User
    Just a comment on guides/help/mentoring:

    Mentoring - If it was an official thing that players could be mentors, perhaps rather than game enhancing rewards, there could be a voting system where people being mentored could up-vote their mentors if they found them helpful. If enough up-votes were earned, perhaps the mentor could earn a title or unique fashion item or something. I'm reluctant to include down-voting as this can lead to abuse of the system, but if a player earned no new up-votes after a period of time, their currently earned up-votes could be reset.

    Guides/help - Whilst this is a good idea, I would be very sceptical of it's effectiveness....

    Generally, people who want to "know" will go and seek the information on the Internet or ask friends/guildies. This is obvious from dungeons where some players can do well in their first LoMM run as they've been on youtube and watched some runs.

    The problem is that NW currently seems to favour pulling in the casual gamer and often, these are people who just want to mash buttons and see what happens (and I don't intend that as a critisism, that is how I started). This is obvious from a variety of areas, such as players at level 80 who are appallingly geared or players in TotDG who still don't know what the hulks are for even though that is the only mechanic in that dungeon. The point being that no amount of well written guides will help as they simply won't be read.

    Personally, I my preference is also the most time consuming for the developer. In game cut-scenes and guides that you have to work through (i.e. things you can't simply ignore).

    Having said that, button mashing is fine whilst levelling and even when working through most campaigns. So if you boil it down, there are probably only a finite number of things that you can actually be seen to fail on if you have no idea what you're doing.
  • oremonger#9999 oremonger Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    edited February 16
    Self moderated. OT
    Post edited by oremonger#9999 on
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,009 Arc User
    edited February 16
    lol yeah I've had a couple like that thru the years that I ended up blocking. sometimes when I see a new player and I have a backload of HAMSTER that I've been hoarding and is pretty mcuh worthless to me I'll set them up. not in grand style but blue mount and some insignias artifacts a full deck of r9s sometimes up to r11 depending on how generous I'm feeling. a couple decent comps and r9 or 10 bondings and empowereds. some take that to mean gimme more gimme more. some are cool about it and are just gee thanks you made my day. the first time I nearly avoided the game for a week too before I said F it. i'm blocking. but I've also had them come back to me a couple months later and I have no memory of them but they remember me. and they're all grown up now. that's kind of a nice feeling. they're like you inspired me to do better. other than running random ques with them though I've always bowed out of helping more than that.
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  • groo#6243 groo Member Posts: 76 Arc User
    This CDP topic is just so big, it is difficult to be concise. So, biting my lip to be brief; my top 3 are (currently) character progression, scaling and professions (but of course, there are many more).

    Top 3 reasoning:

    1. Character progression. The most fun I've ever had from this game was levelling. The content is solid, you get guided through progressive areas as harder content is only unlocked once you clear easier content (although there is scope to skip to harder levels later on), importantly to me; you get to see you character improve (end-game is all about "my sword is bigger than yours". Levelling is about your actual character improving which to me is more meaningful). Filling the XP progress bar has meaning (more so pre-mod16 as every level got you something new; a new power/ability/etc). Generally, you feel you are working towards something and are being rewarded along the way (I do mourn the loss of the old character paragon paths as well, but accept they weren't perfect).

    End game people start to feel lost as there are so many campaigns and there is no guidance to which to tackle first. However, the truth is that from when Vistani gear first entered the game and later undermountain gear, also since boons were nerfed, the majority of campaigns can be skipped entirely. When I first hit level 60+ (some years ago) there was some kind of order to work through campaigns getting progressively harder; Sharandar, Dread ring, Tyranny of dragons, Icewindale, etc. Importantly, working through a campaign got you improved gear ready to tackle the next campaign. i.e. there was a feeling of progression (and yes, you had the option to tackle things in a different order if you were good enough or so wished). *sigh* I miss those days.

    Since mod 16, all that has been reset. Now, you get to level 70, go to undermountain to get to 80. Run ME's/FE's/WE/s to get better gear. Jobs done (Ok, PC players now have the "painted orange stronghold" Mod (18)).

    I would love to see progression brought back and all campaigns become relevant again (just a pipe dream). Maybe since Mod 16 that will be a thing again moving forwards, although it would be a shame to see so much content (older campaigns) go to waste.

    1.a. I will throw inter-class balance in here too, although I think that is a well known common dream of players and devs alike.

    2. Scaling. Related to point 1 really. I agree scaling was just poorly executed in NW. I could see what they were trying to achieve, but it just wasn't well thought through and has never sat well with players. The whole driver for the majority of players is to improve you character and yet scaling takes that way when in any content other than max level. This implementation just confounds me (and many others) completely?!

    Whilst I hate to drop another game name. I recently played Destiny 2 (and Destiny out of interest). One thing that struck me coming from NW is that whilst you get better gear and your character improves. Go back into lower level content and, yes, you do feel stronger, but you don't simply wipe the floor with everything and you will die if you aren't paying attention. It feels like character improvement is a narrower band making the overall combat system more 'balanced' across levels or at least under the control of the devs.

    3. Professions. Personally, I never got into professions. However, it was quite a big part of the game for some and received a big update in mod 15, but has since just fallen by the wayside. That seems a shame.


    Additional:

    I read a post somewhere that mentioned having training modes for end-game dungeons where new players could practice the mechanics without ruining a dungeon run of other players. I like that idea.

    One of the early posts here mentioned having an alternative means to guarantee getting gear if RNG doesn't favour you. I do like that idea. It might take longer to get (e.g. on campaign completion or through additional quests) or you might get a relic version that needs upgrading (provided there isn't an insane amount of grind to upgrade it), but it would help those who really fall foul of RNG. That could also work for lock boxes (also mentioned elsewhere) in that if you have opened, say, 1000 lock boxes and haven't already got a legendary mount, you automatically get one. That just seems fair for paying customers.


    Finally:

    It feels like over the last few years, Cryptic have (had to?) focus so heavily on meeting their commitments of releasing new content 2 or 3 times a year that there was never time to go back and sort out what was already there. Whilst there might be contractual reasons for that, it still feels like such a short sighted and wasteful approach (how much content has been removed from the game or is currently irrelevant). I'm sure if they had just cut back on the number of new content mods per year by just one and instead set aside a few months of each year to get the NW house into order, things would be in a better position now and there would be less of a headache all around trying to bring it back into order at this time.

    NW is still a good game with lots of potential. Fingers crossed for this new injection of direction.
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