I am millions upon millions deep in RAD I'll never be able to refine, have the friends and means to speed-farm T9/LOMM/CODG all day if I wanted, yet I queue REDQ because 1) I enjoy the chaos, and 2) quite often I'm a reinforcement healer and it's fun to get a totally-busted dungeon back on track. (And I guess because I have a below-average IQ?)
On a side note, i absolutely loved trolling the raging "endgamers" who prefered their first words in chat to be insults/mockeries/anger rather than "hello, do you want me to explain mechanics and give quick advices" ? Any kickvote against any of us was just denied as we were 3
Well I see new players who enter a dungeon for their first time and not saying anything to anyone the exact same as a veteran who uses insults/mockeries/anger rather than "hello, do you want me to explain mechanics and give quick advices"?
A brand new player in a dungeon should be saying, "Hi, this is my first time in here, but I have seen videos and read a few guides on the dungeon and I think I understand most of it, but if there is anything else I need to know or do differently please let me know."
Anything other than that above statement, it is EXACTLY the same as a veteran being abusive to a new player. Because a new player who doesn't take advantage of the millions of sources of information on the game content is basically saying "FU IDK!" to the rest the party.
It should NOT be the responsibility of veteran players to train or teach new players how to run content. If a veteran wants to that is up to them, but it shouldn't be an obligation.
CR, LoMM and CoDG doesnt belong in Randoms (as many are stating) Let me remind you all that the same kind of discussions were arising about dungeons like FBI and MSP. It all has to do (in my eyes) with lack of survivalbillity and knowledge of mechanics. Im not talking about flaws and bugs here.
My guess is that ToMM will also enter the randoms in the future
I am millions upon millions deep in RAD I'll never be able to refine, have the friends and means to speed-farm T9/LOMM/CODG all day if I wanted, yet I queue REDQ because 1) I enjoy the chaos, and 2) quite often I'm a reinforcement healer and it's fun to get a totally-busted dungeon back on track. (And I guess because I have a below-average IQ?)
Ineresting and thought provoking post thank you.
It is quite nice to pull players through Svardborg [for example] or to get a wrecked team back on track. And I hadn't thought about how much the PUG changes dynamics for each situation. Thankyou
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,092Arc User
CR, LoMM and CoDG doesnt belong in Randoms (as many are stating) Let me remind you all that the same kind of discussions were arising about dungeons like FBI and MSP. It all has to do (in my eyes) with lack of survivalbillity and knowledge of mechanics. Im not talking about flaws and bugs here.
My guess is that ToMM will also enter the randoms in the future
That is the plan. Only the newest trial/dungeon was to be set aside from the randoms, only to be added later when there is a newer trial/dungeon.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
A brand new player in a dungeon should be saying, "Hi, this is my first time in here, but I have seen videos and read a few guides on the dungeon and I think I understand most of it, but if there is anything else I need to know or do differently please let me know."
Anything other than that above statement, it is EXACTLY the same as a veteran being abusive to a new player. Because a new player who doesn't take advantage of the millions of sources of information on the game content is basically saying "FU IDK!" to the rest the party.
Sure. Why should I play if i didn't studied all the theories ? Would you say you would rather play with bots who are stuffed and able to act and react perfectly during a boss fight, rather than an unexperienced and badly equipeed human player who failed ?
An imaginary random team chess tournament is held for ELO 1500+ (let's say it's a combination of minimum IL and experience), with premade teams but also random teams made by drawing among participants who registered alone. I'm not a grandmaster, and I don't have any friend who plays chess, but I registered nonetheless.
My random team happened to be me (~ELO 1600), a guy I never seen before (~ELO 1800), and world chess champion Magnus Carlsen (ELO >2800). The tournament concept is to play aigainst AI of various strenght (alphazero, leela, stockfish of various versions, etc), and you are allowed to talk to each other within your team while playing. The human teams who achieve victory against every AI and at least draw against last stockfish version and AlphaZero wins the prize.
During the first game against an AI designed for 6yo old chess players, we didn't speak to each other as everyone supposed it was not necessary (see that as the first trash mobs). We claimed 3 victories.
Then we faced one of the latest version of Stockfish (see that as the first boss). Magnus Carlsen, extremely focused on his game, as during the previous one, took one victory, the stranger miraculously drew. Also extremely focused on my game, I unfortunately lost. I was taken off guard by a move I didn't anticipate followed by a crushing attack I completely failed to defend.
Should Magnus Carlsen get angry against me, because it's easy and a well known 1918 Capablanca vs Marshall game, and by the book, in the Morphy's defense of the Ruy Lopez opening, after going for the close defense variation and 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 0-0, I pushed 8.b3 like as if i was inviting the Marshall attack, although i could have push a4 or h3 to prevent this line I was obviously bad and unexperienced at ?
We then play against AlphaZero (last boss). Magnus drew, but both the stranger and I lost, and we didn't win any points. Magnus told us to never go again in a chess tournament without studying all the chessbooks and previous famous games since 1850.
The premade team Maxime Vachier Lagrave (ELO 2750+), former world chess champion Viswanathan Anand (ELO 2750+), and last world chess champion challenger Fabiano Curuana (ELO 2800+) won the prize.
One year later, same tournament, Magnus Carlsen registered again without a premade and he lost again (and was angry with his teamates who loose too much games), So did Maxime Vachier Lagrave with whom i was teamed. We didn't win the tournament, I lost tons of games, but MVL showed me a nice variation in the sicillian defense and gave me is phone numer. Tomorrow, i will take a beer with him and discuss about how to play the queen gambit declined.
I am one of those people who has and will NEVER listen, read or watch any dungeons explaination/guide/tuto.
(snip)
I comprehend why you want to 'go in fresh,' as it were - that first-time excitement and nervousness at facing the unknown/new adventure, etc. That is your right.
However!
It is also the right of other players not to be saddled with your personal preferences.
So, as others have suggested in this thread (and other threads over the years): To cater to both those who insist on going in blind, such as yourself, and to those players whom - after the first or second run - are ready to do efficient speed runs (most players get to that point sooner or later - especially once the end-game grind for astronomical amounts of AD and other resource are required for further character stat progress), there ought to be a system where one has to choose an option before queuing, such as: "Option 1: I want to go in fresh/with newbies." "Option 2: I am experienced with this dungeon, and want to be matched with other experienced players."
Or, as others have suggested, make it so, that a player must complete the story campaign dungeon (solo) at least once. There. Now you get to go in blind, exploring to your heart's content without burdening other players. In turn those other players don't negate your desire to experience things fresh. That's balanced. That's fair.
These suggestions may result in even slower queue times, but that's on Cryptic. They forced that system upon the playerbase when they tied all non-AH-related AD gain to their queues despite numerous warnings from the playerbase that what's happened would happen. They didn't care. I was perfectly content to run private dungeon runs solo to farm AD (there was still a daily quota, though it was lower and per character, but with more than two characters, that meant more AD than the current HAMSTER-poor system. No, I still haven't forgotten nor forgiven Cryptic for that grievance.)
This comes from a former-NW-player who, like you, enjoys exploring nooks and crannies, reading/listening to NPC dialogue (the first time at any rate; the umpteenth time....not so much), but who also wants quick, efficient runs once that first-time-sense-of-wonder wears off.
It is really hard for newer players to farm AD since RSQ and RDQ doesn't reward them with a lot of AD. This is why they all want to run REDQ and RTQ, which is understandable. Sadly most players that que for the epic versions won't be able to finish it if there aren't any players to carry them. It's easy to say they shouldn't que for the epic versions if they aren't ready, but they will have to spend the entire day to get to 100k Rough AD where the rest of use do them and get over 100k easily in 30 minutes. The system needs to be looked at.
Bingo.
Cryptic was warned about this by various players years ago when they first previewed the current AD-tied-to-public-queues system. It turned out exactly as the players predicted: stressful for new players, frustrating for veteran players, tedious, grindy, unfun - frequently a miserable experience, and even if a run went relatively well, it was (and still is) over reliant upon veteran players carrying others.
Cryptic didn't care because, 'Hey! The queues are popping faster, so now players - especially new players - can get in to dungeons few were queuing for before (because of HAMSTER rewards). So, no problem!' Yeah....awesome long-term planning there. Ffs. Someone PLEASE invest in a couple of courses on human psychology, best-practices management, etc. for the devs.
It was a "waste of time" only if you regard practice to be a waste of time. It is not. You should be happy with yourself that you helped two other new players get better. Thank you for doing that! Good for you!
(snip)
You raise salient points, ChemJeff, but the highlighted sentences above are you pushing/forcing your own views/sense of morality upon others regardless of what their own views/sense of morality might be.
This isn't a job or the military - teaching/training others isn't a legitimate demand Cryptic nor other players have any inherent right to place upon others without their consent, and those that choose not to consent are entirely within their right to do so - no explanations required (i.e. freedom of choice).
Some may argue that it's justified because they hold one view to be superior (i.e. 'more right') than the other. That can (and likely will) go both ways. Hence why I object to it. I can and do value random kindness, but I will not accept being forced to do things I don't want to do while others expect/demand I do it while it benefits them but actively hurts me. (Especially in a game that is a past-time intended to be entertaining/fun.)
If one is confident enough in one's point of view, make persuasive arguments, though in this scenario that will mean having to do so frequently - possibly with each and every dungeon run. So be it. No one has any inherent right above others to demand they be carried by others. It is the epitome of selfishness, and certainly no less selfish than those who wish to do speed runs in order to be efficient.
Thus I once more point to a tiered-system whereby both schools of thought can be catered to.
Sometimes I'm inclined to help, and spend 2-3 times or more the amount of time I normally would on a run. Many times I won't because I too have needs, wants, concerns, and time limits, and those are no less important than another player's. Indeed, to me, mine are more important as they relate to me and the priorities/obligations I have. It's the same for the other player(s).
People seem to forget that long ago, "complex" dungeons used to give you battle tactics when you wiped. Also people seem to not understand the idea that not absolutely every time you queue for content you have to succeed.
You don't need to watch a video on CR, just go in the fight and wipe, game then gives you the mechanics.
Nice observation regarding the "Battle Tactics" bit.
As for the bit about not having to succeed every time you do a run, without a sufficient reward (which in this case comes in the form of rAD and chests only upon successful completion of a run) why would I/many others run it? Sure, sometimes for nostalgia, or because one genuinely finds it fun, but the promise of a reward is always nice. Denying that is futile; it's a practical reality that's hardwired into our human form - both psychologically and biologically.
Random queues are extremely popular. Arguing to eliminate them makes no sense to me. If "you" don't like them, then you probably don't use them... so its a non-impact change for you... that affects other players negatively.
Personally... I'd like to see all dungeons on a single random queue. How would this work?
A different IL level req for each. The same basic daily rAD award for each. Each dugneon would award a weekly bonus the first time a player runs it... tailored to dugneon difficulty and time spent.
Example: You would gain 10,000 rAD per dungeon up to 3 a day. (random bonus) You would queue into the highest iL level dungeon you qualify for that is ready to launch. Each specific dungeon would award "1" weekly bonus per account. LoMM might give 50,000 rAD, while a leveling dungeon might only give 5,000 rAD. This mechanic would encourage players to start queuing for dungeons that they have not run recently.. in order to hit their rAD for the day. This brings variety... and balanced rewards.
Fair question: What parameters are you using to determine and support the claim that, "Random queues are extremely popular"?
If, as I suspect, it is based upon how many people queue for them, then you will want to consider that the main drawing point has to do with obtaining daily rAD which is gated in the form of the random queues. If that rAD was no longer gated behind the random queue (as used to be the case), expect a far different level of popularity.
The fun of static dungeons is about PUG. That brings the static dungeon alive. . I strongly believe that it is my responsibility to train and carry new players. Others have done it for me. . I go in Randoms with the understanding that I might fail the run. If it is obvious that it can not be done with that party, I say TY and leave. Never, ever voted yes to kick anyone except long disconnect at the Start of the instance. . That being said, CR, LoMM and CoDG do not belong in Randoms at this point in time.Especially CR. .
That is your right to believe/choose for yourself.
It is not your right to push that upon other players who may not share that same view, and may decide to choose differently.
A brand new player in a dungeon should be saying, "Hi, this is my first time in here, but I have seen videos and read a few guides on the dungeon and I think I understand most of it, but if there is anything else I need to know or do differently please let me know."
Anything other than that above statement, it is EXACTLY the same as a veteran being abusive to a new player. Because a new player who doesn't take advantage of the millions of sources of information on the game content is basically saying "FU IDK!" to the rest the party.
Sure. Why should I play if i didn't studied all the theories ? Would you say you would rather play with bots who are stuffed and able to act and react perfectly during a boss fight, rather than an unexperienced and badly equipeed human player who failed ?
An imaginary random team chess tournament is held for ELO 1500+ (let's say it's a combination of minimum IL and experience), with premade teams but also random teams made by drawing among participants who registered alone. I'm not a grandmaster, and I don't have any friend who plays chess, but I registered nonetheless.
My random team happened to be me (~ELO 1600), a guy I never seen before (~ELO 1800), and world chess champion Magnus Carlsen (ELO >2800). The tournament concept is to play aigainst AI of various strenght (alphazero, leela, stockfish of various versions, etc), and you are allowed to talk to each other within your team while playing. The human teams who achieve victory against every AI and at least draw against last stockfish version and AlphaZero wins the prize.
During the first game against an AI designed for 6yo old chess players, we didn't speak to each other as everyone supposed it was not necessary (see that as the first trash mobs). We claimed 3 victories.
Then we faced one of the latest version of Stockfish (see that as the first boss). Magnus Carlsen, extremely focused on his game, as during the previous one, took one victory, the stranger miraculously drew. Also extremely focused on my game, I unfortunately lost. I was taken off guard by a move I didn't anticipate followed by a crushing attack I completely failed to defend.
Should Magnus Carlsen get angry against me, because it's easy and a well known 1918 Capablanca vs Marshall game, and by the book, in the Morphy's defense of the Ruy Lopez opening, after going for the close defense variation and 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 0-0, I pushed 8.b3 like as if i was inviting the Marshall attack, although i could have push a4 or h3 to prevent this line I was obviously bad and unexperienced at ?
We then play against AlphaZero (last boss). Magnus drew, but both the stranger and I lost, and we didn't win any points. Magnus told us to never go again in a chess tournament without studying all the chessbooks and previous famous games since 1850.
The premade team Maxime Vachier Lagrave (ELO 2750+), former world chess champion Viswanathan Anand (ELO 2750+), and last world chess champion challenger Fabiano Curuana (ELO 2800+) won the prize.
One year later, same tournament, Magnus Carlsen registered again without a premade and he lost again (and was angry with his teamates who loose too much games), So did Maxime Vachier Lagrave with whom i was teamed. We didn't win the tournament, I lost tons of games, but MVL showed me a nice variation in the sicillian defense and gave me is phone numer. Tomorrow, i will take a beer with him and discuss about how to play the queen gambit declined.
I admit that I offered my suggestion partly tongue-in-cheek. Hopefully it stimulates a discussion about where the onus of responsibility should lie. In my opinion, it is the responsibility of BOTH the new player AND the veteran players, working together as a TEAM, to help each other to face the challenges of a dungeon. Should a new player know at least a little bit about a new dungeon, or at least be receptive towards learning about the mechanics and what to do? Yes. Should a veteran player be expected to explain to new players what to do, and to do so with patience? Yes. Neither one should be FORCED by the devs to behave in a certain way. This is a game after all, not a job.
Should a veteran player be expected to explain to new players what to do, and to do so with patience?
Uh NO. And yes they should be forced to learn the mechanics first. They should be required to run all the dungeons 5 times each before being allowed into Random Queue. These dungeons they run are dumbed down on difficulty and give no reward for completion. They are simply there to display to the player the mechanics. If they can't complete it 5 times then they should never be qualified for a random queue.
This is 100% fair, reasonable, and how it SHOULD be.
New player wanting the new fresh experience can get it in those runs but won't impact other players who are there for their daily.
New players won't drag down other players. Veteran players wont need to be required to explain mechanics because everyone should already be on the same page. The only difference is the difficulty.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,092Arc User
Uh NO. And yes they should be forced to learn the mechanics first. They should be required to run all the dungeons 5 times each before being allowed into Random Queue. These dungeons they run are dumbed down on difficulty and give no reward for completion. They are simply there to display to the player the mechanics. If they can't complete it 5 times then they should never be qualified for a random queue.
This is 100% fair, reasonable, and how it SHOULD be.
New player wanting the new fresh experience can get it in those runs but won't impact other players who are there for their daily.
New players won't drag down other players. Veteran players wont need to be required to explain mechanics because everyone should already be on the same page. The only difference is the difficulty.
Uh NO.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Uh NO. And yes they should be forced to learn the mechanics first. They should be required to run all the dungeons 5 times each before being allowed into Random Queue. These dungeons they run are dumbed down on difficulty and give no reward for completion. They are simply there to display to the player the mechanics. If they can't complete it 5 times then they should never be qualified for a random queue.
This is 100% fair, reasonable, and how it SHOULD be.
New player wanting the new fresh experience can get it in those runs but won't impact other players who are there for their daily.
New players won't drag down other players. Veteran players wont need to be required to explain mechanics because everyone should already be on the same page. The only difference is the difficulty.
I may be in the minority, but I love this stuff in random. I never did them prior, too many elitists and jerks in there. Since they have been in random I got to complete codg and lomm multiple times with relative ease (the lomm I got in random today we breezed through with no deaths and no pots needed) and most importantly, people aren't elitist snobs in randoms. They seem to help each other and want everybody to improve. I think putting them in there has been a vast improvement in giving people a fair chance to do them, especially if you are in a very international guild/alliance like mine where so many people are playing at different hours...
We all was new once yes. It is how a new player decides to learn that matters most. Some que wanting that unknown feeling some may not. If a new player at least looked into a bosses mechanics either a video or at least a guide to understand what to do then that is best but what I dislike most of all is when a new player decides to not listen when others are explaining.
Yep a few days ago, I queued for RT and got codg, which is fine with me except I came in as a replacement so I didn't get to join them. I looked into the cystal ball to see where they were at and they were at the skull phase of the first section of the dungeon and all of them had NO CLUE what to do with the skull. Each time the skull spawned they freaked out, turned around and started attacking it which sent it flying in the wrong direction. They were in there for 15 minutes before total failure.
It should NOT be the responsibility of veteran players to train or teach new players how to run content. If a veteran wants to that is up to them, but it shouldn't be an obligation.
You don't have the obligation to train anyone. In fact, you don't even have to do random queues with random unknown people, you just need to premade. You are asking people to train for the dungeon so they can meet your expectations of being able "good enough" or even to be able to rush-run REDQ. Why can't I expect you to go premade instead if you are so bothered by people not meeting your expections ?
The rules are set. You are alone and you tag in REQD, then automatchmaking find you random players who are also queueing so you can start the dungeon. Random is random. Sometimes you will get an overpowered party rush-running trampling the dungeon. Sometimes you will get newplayers who want to discover the dungeon. Sometimes you will find in-between people "good enough" for the job but quite slow. Sometimes talkative people. Sometimes mute ones. Sometimes there will be halts at firecamps with people who take a long time changing their spells/stuff to have the perfect setup aigainst each boss. Sometimes you will wait for someone who forgot to go to the toilets before tagging the queue, and "afk bio 2min brb" in the middle. Sometimes people who just stop everywhere just to enjoy the environment. Sometimes others trying optional lines (ex mimic king in MSP). Etc.
(I don't say Cryptic shouldn't change the rules though :P, but i don't like the "newplayer" argument ^^, because after cast out the "newplayer", you can slip to the next step : cast out "player just good enough at their job but cannot rush hence slowing down the run").
Expectations vary from one to another. My expectations for people in REDQ when i tag in alone are very different from yours. I don't even have the same expections depending on if I'm playing my 23k fighter, my 24k cleric or my 26k rogue.... If my random players expectations was the same as my premade expectations (for exemple if i'm farming during x2 enchant stones), then maybe only 5% of the players who are decently able to finish anything in REDQ would be qualified.
Personnally, I really don't care about the rAD : mostly because I have over 10M rAD stockpiled (haven't you ? Damn, i was expecting you to have that), but also because rAD are not ultimately my primary source of AD (though a nice addition), and finally I don't really care about a virtual money in a game.
Imagine I went some days ago to ReDQ alone and got LoMM with my 24k+ cleric healer. The group given to me by automatchmaking was strong enough at first look to get to the end, but one of the dps was quite a bit lowbie geared one (around 21k) and I saw the newplayer pop-up at the beginning of the run. After the first round of mimics, i felt like i wasn't needed by the tank to manage our corner (he was a huge one with very high dps for his role), and I moved to help the one struggling dps who had let pass 1 mimic. Next rounds of mimics (3 rounds total), not any got through. This lowbie dps finished 3rd in the paingiver (barely beating the tank at paingiver, although i was expecting the tank to be above when i checked at the end), but he didn't die once, did well with the mechanics despite he was a newplayer (though probably 1st time LoMM reroll but used to do it on his main). He wasn't meeting the standard expectations for LoMM = as a dps be able to deal alone with his mimics. But we finished the dungeon nonetheless. Did we really carried him ?
I tag alone for a run in REDQ not for the rAD, but to play and to have fun with random players, to maybe meet some nice people I would want to carry as far as I can or "teach" a bit "how to", and to be put in unexpected situations i must improvise in, adapt to and overcome, even if I know by heart the meta and the mechanics when everyone is experienced and stuffed enough. I don't want the REDQ to become "always cakewalk rAD winning" when i tag alone : i already have the premades for that !
In your example @tchefi#6735 , everybody is at fault in my opinion, but a decent leader takes the blame. I don't see the vets as leaders in this example, just as staff/the team... However, in every business and in most settings communication is a key factor. If I cannot communicate "Hey I know I'm new, please bear with me and if you find it possible, educate me" I am equally to blame as someone saying "You are an HAMSTER for not being good enough" which is probably the point here...
There ARE language difficulties, there are completely new people in the game that don't really know NW yet. I get that. I also get that we do not always get what we want with complete strangers. As long as new players have that easy access to content that needs a minimum of communications (maybe RTQ, certainly a few REDQ) we will have those issues. I don't think vets are the ones responsible for that.
Not the sole responsible, as you obviously understand the "IRL business story" illustration i tried to make up as close as possible as the "REDQ situation". Everyone is responsible : Cryptic (the boss in my exemple) who didn't set the "minimal" high enough, the vets (me and my team) and the newplayers (the new collaborator) who failed to communicate/ask for help/provide help even if not asked.
Pushing newplayers out of the REDQ won't save the thing, because after that there will always be "a next step". Ex: cast out players that are too slow in your opinion (damn, why i am with this 2 guys and finish ToNG with no one dead but done 45min... i have waste at least 15min as i should have been in a "less 30 minutes run" with people of my level/experience).
Please tell me how random queues are great, except for the amount of rad you can get from them, and you'll be listing all the reasons you're IQ is below average.
RQ are great because I can randomly meet new people i wouldn't have met otherwise. Let's talk about my IQ now.
I think a lot of stuff related to this is going to come up in the rewards CDP.
But what if the Random Queue worked more like the beginners version of the Levelling Dungeon Queue?
You unlock Dungeons that get added to your own version of the Standard Random Dungeon Queue.
But of course, why would you? If you can get your daily bog standard rAD from ETOS, why the hell would you want to throw CR into the mix?
How about if your bonus rAD was based on how many Dungeons you had unlocked and there was a secondary, (tertiary I suppose if you count RP/XP) bonus to your first daily RQ? The value of such a bonus would have to be balanced between being valuable enough to make people want to add more Dungeons to their list, and not being too valuable as to cause imbalance in the game.
To add a Dungeon to your list, rather than just grinding sufficient campaign currency and "unlocking" it, (or even worse, having an account wide unlock) you need to run a tutorial version of it, complete it, and repeat that process several times over a number of different days (no more grindy than the process of having to unlock a dungeon via a campaign, in some situations FAR quicker and easier than completing a legacy campaign). Once you have sufficiently shown your proficiency, you get to add it to the list.
Anyone who has completed the dungeon prior to this system being implemented is grandfathered in automatically.
You would not need to undertake this process to enter through a pre-made non Random Queue.
I like the overall concept (it's not sarcastic though i will ask some questions ^^) If i understoof well :
- every toon have to unlock epic dungeons by completing X times the "tuto" version (less difficult than the original). Questions : Should the tuto dungeon (or the "do X time the tuto dungeon" campaign task) loot something usefull for the newplayer in order to help him in his road to catch up the endgamers ? Should the tuto dungeon be soloable ? (unless what you may have troubles finding a "tuto party"). If not, what do you think about a reward for "helping" a newbie as a veteran = 4500rAD/week like others campaign weeklies, to enticed vet player to mix with new ones in "tuto" runs ? If not, to keep the "standard trinity", should buffed and not useless NPCs be grouped with the newplayer to fulfill the missing roles (ex : dps=Xuna/Makos/Drizzt ; tank=Bruenor ; healer=Celeste) ?
- rAD in the REDQ : the amount given by the queue is different depending on how many epic dungeons you have unlocked. The more are unlocked, the more you get. Questions : Wouldn't it dig a gap between newplayers and ultra social vets (causing newplayers to not be able to catch up as quickly as now) ? If my toon who didn't unlock LoMM perfoms better in VT that someone who has unlock everything, is it fair if i get less rAD than him ? (i say that because i would most likely be able, after a while, to unlock every single dungeon on every single one of my 38 toons thanks to my helpful ally, but quite a lot of my toons would probably be completely HAMSTER, built with patchwork and very far from BiS equipped).
Everyone has is own nerdiness :P. And I took chess as the exemple, because more widely known, though i would have prefered speaking about Go ^^ its joskeki, and the fuseki, chuban and yose theories.
It should NOT be the responsibility of veteran players to train or teach new players how to run content. If a veteran wants to that is up to them, but it shouldn't be an obligation.
You don't have the obligation to train anyone. In fact, you don't even have to do random queues with random unknown people, you just need to premade. You are asking people to train for the dungeon so they can meet your expectations of being able "good enough" or even to be able to rush-run REDQ. Why can't I expect you to go premade instead if you are so bothered by people not meeting your expections ?
The funny thing here you suggest something that I already do. I have a healthy guild and alliance and run randoms with them daily. The point is, when you make an argument like, "Just find a premade, problem solved." its not solved. It's sweeping the issue under the rug. The things I'm arguing for are a quality of life change for players who DONT have the guild or alliance to fallback on for their dailies.
What makes this even more funny from my perspective is, I help new players a lot. Both ones that directly ask me for it and those who I just happen across and realize they need some guidance.
So don't pretend here as if I'm crying about the player experience for my own personal benefit. Because it's far from that.
Which is funny, because i'm not arguing with you specifically but with your points (rich or poor af, if you [as the equivalent of the singular "tu" in french] are ultra-liberalist/capitalist, me, as a millionaire with tons of stock actions and hypocriticaly socialist, I will argue with the points of vue you ["vous" the ultra-liberalistS/capitalistS] have).
The things I'm arguing for are a quality of life change for players who DONT have the guild or alliance to fallback on for their dailies.
Question : for QoL, do you [as the equivalent of the plural "vous" in french] think an universal "salary" of 100krAD everyday you connect once in the game would solve the RQ problem ? No need to rush the dungeons for "rAD-efficiency"
Question : I'm in a guild. I never organize anything and I also complain no one is organizing anything (time to time i meet players like that). Can you see the irony ? Players who don't have the guild or the alliance to back them up for RQ : aren't they able to help their guild grow and be healthier rather than losing time in RQ because of "newplayers" (or even maybe try to recruit those "newplayers" ?)
What's really bothering me is I strongly think everyone has every keys and keychain they need. But a lot of us only want to carry that one key and want the world to adapt all the doors so they can be opened with that key.
Again, the critical problem is basically socialization. Segregating and categorizing players, puting them in seperate boxes so everyone is in his "domain" is something i don't see as a solution.
[afterwork and backhome edit : some typos, and this it's a modern humans thing to try to shape the world into how they want it to be rather than adapt themselves. Nothing wrong trying to change the world, nothing wrong trying to adapt to the current one.
post-scriptum : I'm sometimes trying to defend an opinion opposite of mine , just to keep my mind opened to other ways to think about a problem/solution, as a mean to fight mono-thinking cult ^^]
Comments
Let me remind you all that the same kind of discussions were arising about dungeons like FBI and MSP.
It all has to do (in my eyes) with lack of survivalbillity and knowledge of mechanics.
Im not talking about flaws and bugs here.
My guess is that ToMM will also enter the randoms in the future
It is quite nice to pull players through Svardborg [for example] or to get a wrecked team back on track. And I hadn't thought about how much the PUG changes dynamics for each situation. Thankyou
Would you say you would rather play with bots who are stuffed and able to act and react perfectly during a boss fight, rather than an unexperienced and badly equipeed human player who failed ?
An imaginary random team chess tournament is held for ELO 1500+ (let's say it's a combination of minimum IL and experience), with premade teams but also random teams made by drawing among participants who registered alone. I'm not a grandmaster, and I don't have any friend who plays chess, but I registered nonetheless.
My random team happened to be me (~ELO 1600), a guy I never seen before (~ELO 1800), and world chess champion Magnus Carlsen (ELO >2800). The tournament concept is to play aigainst AI of various strenght (alphazero, leela, stockfish of various versions, etc), and you are allowed to talk to each other within your team while playing.
The human teams who achieve victory against every AI and at least draw against last stockfish version and AlphaZero wins the prize.
During the first game against an AI designed for 6yo old chess players, we didn't speak to each other as everyone supposed it was not necessary (see that as the first trash mobs). We claimed 3 victories.
Then we faced one of the latest version of Stockfish (see that as the first boss). Magnus Carlsen, extremely focused on his game, as during the previous one, took one victory, the stranger miraculously drew. Also extremely focused on my game, I unfortunately lost.
I was taken off guard by a move I didn't anticipate followed by a crushing attack I completely failed to defend.
Should Magnus Carlsen get angry against me, because it's easy and a well known 1918 Capablanca vs Marshall game, and by the book, in the Morphy's defense of the Ruy Lopez opening, after going for the close defense variation and 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 0-0, I pushed 8.b3 like as if i was inviting the Marshall attack, although i could have push a4 or h3 to prevent this line I was obviously bad and unexperienced at ?
We then play against AlphaZero (last boss). Magnus drew, but both the stranger and I lost, and we didn't win any points. Magnus told us to never go again in a chess tournament without studying all the chessbooks and previous famous games since 1850.
The premade team Maxime Vachier Lagrave (ELO 2750+), former world chess champion Viswanathan Anand (ELO 2750+), and last world chess champion challenger Fabiano Curuana (ELO 2800+) won the prize.
One year later, same tournament, Magnus Carlsen registered again without a premade and he lost again (and was angry with his teamates who loose too much games),
So did Maxime Vachier Lagrave with whom i was teamed. We didn't win the tournament, I lost tons of games, but MVL showed me a nice variation in the sicillian defense and gave me is phone numer. Tomorrow, i will take a beer with him and discuss about how to play the queen gambit declined.
However!
It is also the right of other players not to be saddled with your personal preferences.
So, as others have suggested in this thread (and other threads over the years): To cater to both those who insist on going in blind, such as yourself, and to those players whom - after the first or second run - are ready to do efficient speed runs (most players get to that point sooner or later - especially once the end-game grind for astronomical amounts of AD and other resource are required for further character stat progress), there ought to be a system where one has to choose an option before queuing, such as: "Option 1: I want to go in fresh/with newbies." "Option 2: I am experienced with this dungeon, and want to be matched with other experienced players."
Or, as others have suggested, make it so, that a player must complete the story campaign dungeon (solo) at least once. There. Now you get to go in blind, exploring to your heart's content without burdening other players. In turn those other players don't negate your desire to experience things fresh. That's balanced. That's fair.
These suggestions may result in even slower queue times, but that's on Cryptic. They forced that system upon the playerbase when they tied all non-AH-related AD gain to their queues despite numerous warnings from the playerbase that what's happened would happen. They didn't care. I was perfectly content to run private dungeon runs solo to farm AD (there was still a daily quota, though it was lower and per character, but with more than two characters, that meant more AD than the current HAMSTER-poor system. No, I still haven't forgotten nor forgiven Cryptic for that grievance.)
This comes from a former-NW-player who, like you, enjoys exploring nooks and crannies, reading/listening to NPC dialogue (the first time at any rate; the umpteenth time....not so much), but who also wants quick, efficient runs once that first-time-sense-of-wonder wears off.
Cryptic was warned about this by various players years ago when they first previewed the current AD-tied-to-public-queues system. It turned out exactly as the players predicted: stressful for new players, frustrating for veteran players, tedious, grindy, unfun - frequently a miserable experience, and even if a run went relatively well, it was (and still is) over reliant upon veteran players carrying others.
Cryptic didn't care because, 'Hey! The queues are popping faster, so now players - especially new players - can get in to dungeons few were queuing for before (because of HAMSTER rewards). So, no problem!' Yeah....awesome long-term planning there. Ffs. Someone PLEASE invest in a couple of courses on human psychology, best-practices management, etc. for the devs.
This isn't a job or the military - teaching/training others isn't a legitimate demand Cryptic nor other players have any inherent right to place upon others without their consent, and those that choose not to consent are entirely within their right to do so - no explanations required (i.e. freedom of choice).
Some may argue that it's justified because they hold one view to be superior (i.e. 'more right') than the other. That can (and likely will) go both ways. Hence why I object to it. I can and do value random kindness, but I will not accept being forced to do things I don't want to do while others expect/demand I do it while it benefits them but actively hurts me. (Especially in a game that is a past-time intended to be entertaining/fun.)
If one is confident enough in one's point of view, make persuasive arguments, though in this scenario that will mean having to do so frequently - possibly with each and every dungeon run. So be it. No one has any inherent right above others to demand they be carried by others. It is the epitome of selfishness, and certainly no less selfish than those who wish to do speed runs in order to be efficient.
Thus I once more point to a tiered-system whereby both schools of thought can be catered to.
Sometimes I'm inclined to help, and spend 2-3 times or more the amount of time I normally would on a run. Many times I won't because I too have needs, wants, concerns, and time limits, and those are no less important than another player's. Indeed, to me, mine are more important as they relate to me and the priorities/obligations I have. It's the same for the other player(s).
As for the bit about not having to succeed every time you do a run, without a sufficient reward (which in this case comes in the form of rAD and chests only upon successful completion of a run) why would I/many others run it? Sure, sometimes for nostalgia, or because one genuinely finds it fun, but the promise of a reward is always nice. Denying that is futile; it's a practical reality that's hardwired into our human form - both psychologically and biologically.
If, as I suspect, it is based upon how many people queue for them, then you will want to consider that the main drawing point has to do with obtaining daily rAD which is gated in the form of the random queues. If that rAD was no longer gated behind the random queue (as used to be the case), expect a far different level of popularity.
That is your right to believe/choose for yourself.
It is not your right to push that upon other players who may not share that same view, and may decide to choose differently.
This is 100% fair, reasonable, and how it SHOULD be.
New player wanting the new fresh experience can get it in those runs but won't impact other players who are there for their daily.
New players won't drag down other players. Veteran players wont need to be required to explain mechanics because everyone should already be on the same page. The only difference is the difficulty.
In fact, you don't even have to do random queues with random unknown people, you just need to premade.
You are asking people to train for the dungeon so they can meet your expectations of being able "good enough" or even to be able to rush-run REDQ.
Why can't I expect you to go premade instead if you are so bothered by people not meeting your expections ?
The rules are set.
You are alone and you tag in REQD, then automatchmaking find you random players who are also queueing so you can start the dungeon. Random is random.
Sometimes you will get an overpowered party rush-running trampling the dungeon. Sometimes you will get newplayers who want to discover the dungeon. Sometimes you will find in-between people "good enough" for the job but quite slow. Sometimes talkative people. Sometimes mute ones. Sometimes there will be halts at firecamps with people who take a long time changing their spells/stuff to have the perfect setup aigainst each boss. Sometimes you will wait for someone who forgot to go to the toilets before tagging the queue, and "afk bio 2min brb" in the middle. Sometimes people who just stop everywhere just to enjoy the environment. Sometimes others trying optional lines (ex mimic king in MSP). Etc.
(I don't say Cryptic shouldn't change the rules though :P, but i don't like the "newplayer" argument ^^, because after cast out the "newplayer", you can slip to the next step : cast out "player just good enough at their job but cannot rush hence slowing down the run").
Expectations vary from one to another. My expectations for people in REDQ when i tag in alone are very different from yours. I don't even have the same expections depending on if I'm playing my 23k fighter, my 24k cleric or my 26k rogue....
If my random players expectations was the same as my premade expectations (for exemple if i'm farming during x2 enchant stones), then maybe only 5% of the players who are decently able to finish anything in REDQ would be qualified.
Personnally, I really don't care about the rAD : mostly because I have over 10M rAD stockpiled (haven't you ? Damn, i was expecting you to have that), but also because rAD are not ultimately my primary source of AD (though a nice addition), and finally I don't really care about a virtual money in a game.
Imagine I went some days ago to ReDQ alone and got LoMM with my 24k+ cleric healer.
The group given to me by automatchmaking was strong enough at first look to get to the end, but one of the dps was quite a bit lowbie geared one (around 21k) and I saw the newplayer pop-up at the beginning of the run.
After the first round of mimics, i felt like i wasn't needed by the tank to manage our corner (he was a huge one with very high dps for his role), and I moved to help the one struggling dps who had let pass 1 mimic. Next rounds of mimics (3 rounds total), not any got through.
This lowbie dps finished 3rd in the paingiver (barely beating the tank at paingiver, although i was expecting the tank to be above when i checked at the end), but he didn't die once, did well with the mechanics despite he was a newplayer (though probably 1st time LoMM reroll but used to do it on his main).
He wasn't meeting the standard expectations for LoMM = as a dps be able to deal alone with his mimics.
But we finished the dungeon nonetheless.
Did we really carried him ?
I tag alone for a run in REDQ not for the rAD, but to play and to have fun with random players, to maybe meet some nice people I would want to carry as far as I can or "teach" a bit "how to", and to be put in unexpected situations i must improvise in, adapt to and overcome, even if I know by heart the meta and the mechanics when everyone is experienced and stuffed enough.
I don't want the REDQ to become "always cakewalk rAD winning" when i tag alone : i already have the premades for that !
Not the sole responsible, as you obviously understand the "IRL business story" illustration i tried to make up as close as possible as the "REDQ situation".
Everyone is responsible : Cryptic (the boss in my exemple) who didn't set the "minimal" high enough, the vets (me and my team) and the newplayers (the new collaborator) who failed to communicate/ask for help/provide help even if not asked.
Pushing newplayers out of the REDQ won't save the thing, because after that there will always be "a next step". Ex: cast out players that are too slow in your opinion (damn, why i am with this 2 guys and finish ToNG with no one dead but done 45min... i have waste at least 15min as i should have been in a "less 30 minutes run" with people of my level/experience).
RQ are great because I can randomly meet new people i wouldn't have met otherwise. Let's talk about my IQ now. I like the overall concept (it's not sarcastic though i will ask some questions ^^)
If i understoof well :
- every toon have to unlock epic dungeons by completing X times the "tuto" version (less difficult than the original).
Questions :
Should the tuto dungeon (or the "do X time the tuto dungeon" campaign task) loot something usefull for the newplayer in order to help him in his road to catch up the endgamers ?
Should the tuto dungeon be soloable ? (unless what you may have troubles finding a "tuto party").
If not, what do you think about a reward for "helping" a newbie as a veteran = 4500rAD/week like others campaign weeklies, to enticed vet player to mix with new ones in "tuto" runs ?
If not, to keep the "standard trinity", should buffed and not useless NPCs be grouped with the newplayer to fulfill the missing roles (ex : dps=Xuna/Makos/Drizzt ; tank=Bruenor ; healer=Celeste) ?
- rAD in the REDQ : the amount given by the queue is different depending on how many epic dungeons you have unlocked. The more are unlocked, the more you get.
Questions :
Wouldn't it dig a gap between newplayers and ultra social vets (causing newplayers to not be able to catch up as quickly as now) ?
If my toon who didn't unlock LoMM perfoms better in VT that someone who has unlock everything, is it fair if i get less rAD than him ? (i say that because i would most likely be able, after a while, to unlock every single dungeon on every single one of my 38 toons thanks to my helpful ally, but quite a lot of my toons would probably be completely HAMSTER, built with patchwork and very far from BiS equipped).
What makes this even more funny from my perspective is, I help new players a lot. Both ones that directly ask me for it and those who I just happen across and realize they need some guidance.
So don't pretend here as if I'm crying about the player experience for my own personal benefit. Because it's far from that.
Question :
for QoL, do you [as the equivalent of the plural "vous" in french] think an universal "salary" of 100krAD everyday you connect once in the game would solve the RQ problem ? No need to rush the dungeons for "rAD-efficiency"
Question :
I'm in a guild. I never organize anything and I also complain no one is organizing anything (time to time i meet players like that).
Can you see the irony ?
Players who don't have the guild or the alliance to back them up for RQ : aren't they able to help their guild grow and be healthier rather than losing time in RQ because of "newplayers" (or even maybe try to recruit those "newplayers" ?)
What's really bothering me is I strongly think everyone has every keys and keychain they need. But a lot of us only want to carry that one key and want the world to adapt all the doors so they can be opened with that key.
Again, the critical problem is basically socialization. Segregating and categorizing players, puting them in seperate boxes so everyone is in his "domain" is something i don't see as a solution.
[afterwork and backhome edit : some typos, and this
it's a modern humans thing to try to shape the world into how they want it to be rather than adapt themselves. Nothing wrong trying to change the world, nothing wrong trying to adapt to the current one.
post-scriptum : I'm sometimes trying to defend an opinion opposite of mine