darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,259Arc User
I think people should have completed the dungeons at least 5 times to enter the random queue. So if someone didnt complete CR or LoMM that number of times he doesnt qualify for ReDQ and the same with trials.
I understand that people want to start the game and in 15 days be in end game but that shouldnt be like this. This game need to implement some kind of dungeon progression
The real Problem is in my opinion: all Queues exccept CR and CODG are in deed to easy. this ist the real reason, nobody cares about mechanics, information and tips of Party members, roles and so on. Random Queues should be a) 20% more difficult, then the normal Queues b) give 33% more Rad or actual loot c) should reduce the kick time to 1 min. (4 of 5) and 2 min (3 of 5) d) and one should succsseed at least once in normal more/quest line This would makes scence …
or. like the original poster proposed, take the difficult Things out … then ist a fast rush to get Rad … also ok for me.
Here is the problem with the idea of having people run it 5 times before they do a random. You can simply die on each boss win the dungeon and get that win count. Unless you decide to make it where if you die on a boss then it does not count. regardless if a dungeon was given a mini stat requirement that a player and spec needs to meet at before they can enter. This would make sure that the dungeon run was at least to a degree able to complete regardless if a new player is present and does not know the mechanics. Item level is just not the best way to handle how a dungeon is locked at because all people do is rush to that level and enter and not have the stats.
On a day when I was very busy and had little time to play, I created a group for REDQ. We fell in CR, and when the sisters arrived at the problem, neither the healer nor the dps knew the mechanics of the Book and it was a disaster. As I was in a hurry, I decided to look for solo and ended up in a LoMM. I was happy to see that one of the players was a PPL from the old ones and don't even look at the other characters. Everything was going well until we got to the first Boss. We failed once, twice, 3 times, all because some of the dps couldn't break 1 mimic. I decided to look at the characters, and I saw that everyone had the status to run ToMM, but the player who could not break the mimic did not use a companion augmentation. He had little power, despite balanced status. I had to kick him so that the random could be finished.
I remember well that I was kicked a few times, that I was carried (often, ty Galatic i love u!), and that made me seek knowledge to evolve as a player. It is a bad thing to do, but sometimes it is necessary. There are many new players and they need to seek knowledge or all the content will have to be changed so that everything is easy as they did with MSP and CoDG which no longer kills permanently when falling from the platforms.
to be fair, the Arcturia fight is quite easily done with only two strong DPS if the mechanics are played right: you only need to kill 6 mimics to end the phase, so the strong DPS can burst the first mimic at their corners, then dash to join the other two corners, finish the other pair, then help finish the last two. One useless DPS shouldn't be a showstopper in this fight, especially if the healer and tank are geared (my soulweaver can solo a corner if necessary, and that's even without killing flames...)
Caveat for those glitchy fast-mimic phases which are often a mess regardless.
This method also allows easy carry of alliance members through learning runs, or even 4x lomm runs when you're impatient and can't be bothered to find a fifth.
The problem in the case I mentioned was that it only had 1 good DPS. The second DPS managed to break the first mimic, but not the second. Usually I tell the DPS to keep the powersters and daily encounters for the mimics, explain that they appear close to 75% of the Boss's HP, but in the second mimic they find it difficult to break the second. The CW that was an alt of a PPL could break the 2 mimics, me and the dc would break 1, the other DPS would break 1 ... but there were still 2 left and the thing just broke down.
Of the last dungeons that were released LoMM is certainly the easiest, but it is only easy for those who have the right equipment and knowledge of the game. I keep imagining a player suffering to break a mimic in LoMM what he would do if he saw Orcus in ToNG the first week he released
IL until mod 15 was an experience meter, but not now you can easily raise your IL.
i dont see in codg any problem, it's a lot easier now that you cant fall/(permadeath).
the real problem is CR/Lomm
Lomm is a gear check (power check)(need scaling fix)
Cr is skill/experience check(this cant stay on queue)
Until now CR is the most difficult 5man dungeon of neverwinter, cant be compared to the others and cant be carried by 1man.
I respect your opinion, but CR is not difficult.
In CR you only need a tank that takes aggro and lowers the shield when the count of one of the Sisters is 10, that does the same thing when the second boss uses the IBS and that stays alive in the last Boss. 1 good dps who knows how to control the sword and who knows how to count to 6 in permadeath mechanics in the last boss. 1 good healer. And someone who knows how to handle the book on the first boss. The other can enter the backpack and be carried easily.
There is a guide for everything on the game on youtube, but apparently it is easier to kill the difficulty of the dungeon to make the new players happy when they finish.
I miss the FBI, where 1 hit by a giant was an almost certain death.
The problem in the case I mentioned was that it only had 1 good DPS. The second DPS managed to break the first mimic, but not the second.
I hear you. Yes, the fight goes downhill very quickly if only one person is capable of reliably taking out multiple mimics in succession. I've managed to pull through some real DPS-shockers with serious healing+tanking against massive golem swarms, but that requires a healer+tank who are fully sympatico, not two supports thrown randomly together.
I am one of those people who has and will NEVER listen, read or watch any dungeons explaination/guide/tuto. I do want to be surprised during my first run to challenge in live my skill (adapt, improve, overcome... you know the meme) rather than to pre-know what to do. I do want to figure out things by myseIf and try to resolve a problem with my own brain. I do want to try, die, retry, developing brick by brick an idea of this boss, this dungeon, ending with a strategy "of my own" (though it may come to be the same as what track-openers figured month ago in preview, I don't pretend to be a genius :P). And I absolutely love players who try to do the same, even if it means for me that sometimes i would get stuck 1h30 in ToNG with 3 newplayers who are trying to figure out what's up on Ras Nsi. These players would likely end in my friendlist, and 6 months later they will surely become sure value as teammates for a quick run of any dungeon.
Devs give us a "brain teasers" / "puzzles" to play with... that players who follow guides/tutos/copy-paste builds don't even try to solve... Like sheeps, they are simply listening/reading the walkthrough, following the paths, the metas, the builds made by players with enough braincells to be shepherds. And part of those sheeps are also the first to quickly complain and mock someone who doesn't know how to handle a boss...
I'm pretty sure any shepherds who make tutos/videos or just explain in live, when they enter alone on a random queue and get new/unexperienced players in the party, will at least try a while to figure out how to make the party go through this dungeon, chatting and asking to try alternate choices and tactics. Personnally, though it's still happen time to time, matchmaking rarely gives me random players who are at the same time unable to understand english/french + uterly bad at their job + not even trying to understand the mechanics. Sure, along the years i've got tons of party who wiped on Drufy, on Arcturia, on Orcus, on Periclite, one Ras Nsi, on Sisters, on Straad, on Nocturia, etc. Some led to dungeon failures/leavers/kick. Most saw party briefings, open tactical discussions, alternate choices, new/unexperienced player big improvements in handling the boss, and success (and new members joining my guild or friends in my friendlist).
"Meta" is not an end in itself, because it's evolving continously all the time even when nothing change in the game, as some shepherds can still discover new innovative ways to do something. Being forced to think out of the box, because your party is weak or unexperienced, can lead to new ideas, new solutions to the dungeons equation. Why should I search another solution at "a*b=24" when i know that 4x6 = 24 ? Must I have a 4 and a 6 in my party all the time ? Damn, i have three 2 and one 3 with me... it's out of the meta, so i don't even try to solve the equation with these 4 numbers because it will take too much of my time ?
Random queues, for me, is trying to always solve a random equation. I will hard try to get to the end, even with seemingly impossible odds. Yeah sometimes it fails ("c'est le jeu ma pauv' Lucette"), is it really a big deal ? And sometimes it's a success. That's much more fun than a quick rush run trampling the dungeon with everyone silent because there is no time. If i want to do for these kind of rush-run, premade it is.
Honestly, how many players around there are considering themselves veterans/experienced and have trouble getting their 100k rAD/day ? Damn, i'm sitting over a 10M rAD stockpile only playing 2-3h/day... i can spend once in a while more time than usual in a dungeon to help/explain/carry/let them figure it out...
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darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,259Arc User
Here is the problem with the idea of having people run it 5 times before they do a random. You can simply die on each boss win the dungeon and get that win count. Unless you decide to make it where if you die on a boss then it does not count. regardless if a dungeon was given a mini stat requirement that a player and spec needs to meet at before they can enter. This would make sure that the dungeon run was at least to a degree able to complete regardless if a new player is present and does not know the mechanics. Item level is just not the best way to handle how a dungeon is locked at because all people do is rush to that level and enter and not have the stats.
Yes but the team has to carry you then and I bet that if you dont know the team they will kick you if you are dying all time or being afk. At least you will get some experience from the runs because they need your contribution to success, or they have to carry you and lots of people arent capable to do it 4-man.
Anyway i suggest also a popup once you enter the dungeons that gives you information like:
You are DPS, with your stats you will have in this dungeon:
50k armor pen (you will do -X% less damage): recommended 60k Armor pen 40K defense (you will receive +Y% more damage): recommended 60K Defense .... etc.
So players are at least informed about what they are doing wrong.
This is just me as a player. If I enter in a dungeon and I fail to something stupid or if I know I just can not do it but wanted to give it a try I leave the party. I do not ask to be kicked I simply leave and take the penalty. Now I can not say this for each person but for my self if I am the reason that the party I am in will fail the dungeon I leave. If more people was that way things would be different.
The difficulty of a dungeon should be tuned to match the intended completion rate for the dungeon's intended audience.
The devs have previously said (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) that they aim for something like 90+% completion rates for random queue dungeons.
And, dungeons being in the random queue (as opposed to, say, TOMM, or to CODG/CR before Mod 18), suggests that the indented audience is the general population of players, not a subset of highly skilled/geared players.
So if the completion rates for dungeons like CODG/CR/LOMM in the random queue now in Mod 18, are "too low" by the devs' metric, then this suggests that these dungeons are too hard for the intended audience.
You can berate players all you want for not meeting your standards of play, but that doesn't change the empirical truth of what was stated above.
IL until mod 15 was an experience meter, but not now you can easily raise your IL.
i dont see in codg any problem, it's a lot easier now that you cant fall/(permadeath).
the real problem is CR/Lomm
Lomm is a gear check (power check)(need scaling fix)
Cr is skill/experience check(this cant stay on queue)
Until now CR is the most difficult 5man dungeon of neverwinter, cant be compared to the others and cant be carried by 1man.
I respect your opinion, but CR is not difficult.
In CR you only need a tank that takes aggro and lowers the shield when the count of one of the Sisters is 10, that does the same thing when the second boss uses the IBS and that stays alive in the last Boss. 1 good dps who knows how to control the sword and who knows how to count to 6 in permadeath mechanics in the last boss. 1 good healer. And someone who knows how to handle the book on the first boss. The other can enter the backpack and be carried easily.
There is a guide for everything on the game on youtube, but apparently it is easier to kill the difficulty of the dungeon to make the new players happy when they finish.
I miss the FBI, where 1 hit by a giant was an almost certain death.
This is an absurdly reductionist description of CR. For the first boss fight alone, you need a tank that knows how to manage the boss stacks, you need a player who can manage the tome, you need DPSers who know where to stand and how to react to different cues, you need a team that can kill the object in the center very quickly when one of the sisters dies, etc. Similarly for other mechanics in other parts of the dungeon.
The main reason why CR is difficult is because it is very mechanic-heavy, and trying to learn ANY mechanic, regardless of where it is, requires training and practice. Just like trying to learn how to play a musical instrument, or how to play a sport. Just watching a video or two isn't enough, otherwise we would all be football superstars. And CR for the longest time was a dungeon that was largely ignored by a lot of players - it was either "way too hard, buggy, and pointless", or "way too easy, buggy, and pointless". So I would surmise that the main reason why so many people are failing here is not necessarily because they are dumb, or because they are undergeared, or not because they haven't watched enough youtube videos or read enough guides, but because they simply haven't practiced the mechanics enough. So cut them a little bit of slack and why not try to help them understand the mechanics.
IL until mod 15 was an experience meter, but not now you can easily raise your IL.
i dont see in codg any problem, it's a lot easier now that you cant fall/(permadeath).
the real problem is CR/Lomm
Lomm is a gear check (power check)(need scaling fix)
Cr is skill/experience check(this cant stay on queue)
Until now CR is the most difficult 5man dungeon of neverwinter, cant be compared to the others and cant be carried by 1man.
I respect your opinion, but CR is not difficult.
In CR you only need a tank that takes aggro and lowers the shield when the count of one of the Sisters is 10, that does the same thing when the second boss uses the IBS and that stays alive in the last Boss. 1 good dps who knows how to control the sword and who knows how to count to 6 in permadeath mechanics in the last boss. 1 good healer. And someone who knows how to handle the book on the first boss. The other can enter the backpack and be carried easily.
There is a guide for everything on the game on youtube, but apparently it is easier to kill the difficulty of the dungeon to make the new players happy when they finish.
I miss the FBI, where 1 hit by a giant was an almost certain death.
This is an absurdly reductionist description of CR. For the first boss fight alone, you need a tank that knows how to manage the boss stacks, you need a player who can manage the tome, you need DPSers who know where to stand and how to react to different cues, you need a team that can kill the object in the center very quickly when one of the sisters dies, etc. Similarly for other mechanics in other parts of the dungeon.
The main reason why CR is difficult is because it is very mechanic-heavy, and trying to learn ANY mechanic, regardless of where it is, requires training and practice. Just like trying to learn how to play a musical instrument, or how to play a sport. Just watching a video or two isn't enough, otherwise we would all be football superstars. And CR for the longest time was a dungeon that was largely ignored by a lot of players - it was either "way too hard, buggy, and pointless", or "way too easy, buggy, and pointless". So I would surmise that the main reason why so many people are failing here is not necessarily because they are dumb, or because they are undergeared, or not because they haven't watched enough youtube videos or read enough guides, but because they simply haven't practiced the mechanics enough. So cut them a little bit of slack and why not try to help them understand the mechanics.
Your premise is absolutely right and you have a good mentality. However; there is more at stake here. Just a few days ago, I was running REDQ and got CR back to back and both times there were two players in each run that were brand new to CR. I took the time to explain the mechanics the best I could to them and both times we failed. Was my explanations bad? Do they need more practice? If you say I should allow them more practice, you are essentially saying I need to waste my time on other players so they can catch up on experience. This punishes players who have taken the time to study, learn, or get into a guild run so they can learn it. Pugs who don't take the time to study every source they can get their hands on do slap the faces of those players who have taken that time. That might sound harsh, but I do help players, I do give players a chance to prove that if you give them some simple instruction they can absorb it and play it out exactly how you describe. The problem is when even after you try to help they just dont care to absorb the details you give them. They think they can get around your warnings or that they know better than your details. This wastes players time.
One possible solution is to force players to play a stripped down version of the dungeon x number of times prior to being allowed to queue for Random queues.
So you take CR, you reduce it's difficulty, leave in the mechanics so new players can learn it but not punish them severely. Just strip out the rewards and make the dungeon basically a learning queue that is required by all players to complete first. You can do this for every dungeon and new dungeon before they can normal queue for rewards. Don't make it just 1 run requirement, but make it 5 or 10 times first. Because if its only 1 required run, they could of gotten lucky and went with a good group and now they qualify for random queue yet still don't know the mechanic. You need to make it multiple runs so they have a chance to see it when its bad, see the dungeon when its good, and see all the possible issues in the dungeon first before going into random queue.
> @chemjeff said: > (Quote) > This is an absurdly reductionist description of CR. For the first boss fight alone, you need a tank that knows how to manage the boss stacks, you need a player who can manage the tome, you need DPSers who know where to stand and how to react to different cues, you need a team that can kill the object in the center very quickly when one of the sisters dies, etc. Similarly for other mechanics in other parts of the dungeon. > > The main reason why CR is difficult is because it is very mechanic-heavy, and trying to learn ANY mechanic, regardless of where it is, requires training and practice. Just like trying to learn how to play a musical instrument, or how to play a sport. Just watching a video or two isn't enough, otherwise we would all be football superstars. And CR for the longest time was a dungeon that was largely ignored by a lot of players - it was either "way too hard, buggy, and pointless", or "way too easy, buggy, and pointless". So I would surmise that the main reason why so many people are failing here is not necessarily because they are dumb, or because they are undergeared, or not because they haven't watched enough youtube videos or read enough guides, but because they simply haven't practiced the mechanics enough. So cut them a little bit of slack and why not try to help them understand the mechanics.
Amazing how ppl complain that there are dungeons where u need to acutally do stuff.
How about we just give everyone the AD they would get from random ques on login, and then tune dungeons up so they are fun again.
> This is an absurdly reductionist description of CR. For the first boss fight alone, you need a tank that knows how to manage the boss stacks, you need a player who can manage the tome, you need DPSers who know where to stand and how to react to different cues, you need a team that can kill the object in the center very quickly when one of the sisters dies, etc. Similarly for other mechanics in other parts of the dungeon.
>
> The main reason why CR is difficult is because it is very mechanic-heavy, and trying to learn ANY mechanic, regardless of where it is, requires training and practice. Just like trying to learn how to play a musical instrument, or how to play a sport. Just watching a video or two isn't enough, otherwise we would all be football superstars. And CR for the longest time was a dungeon that was largely ignored by a lot of players - it was either "way too hard, buggy, and pointless", or "way too easy, buggy, and pointless". So I would surmise that the main reason why so many people are failing here is not necessarily because they are dumb, or because they are undergeared, or not because they haven't watched enough youtube videos or read enough guides, but because they simply haven't practiced the mechanics enough. So cut them a little bit of slack and why not try to help them understand the mechanics.
Amazing how ppl complain that there are dungeons where u need to acutally do stuff.
How about we just give everyone the AD they would get from random ques on login, and then tune dungeons up so they are fun again.
Id have to assume you are joking here because most players would just log in and log back out if that were the case. Why run something difficult if the chances of failure are higher than success when there is zero reward for success.
Well, now, even demogorgon can be a problem. If someone just open all the portals... Today we failed in codg because some one killed cube just after it appears. And second one, and third one and... We told him to not do that, but he just ignored us. We tried to kick him, but it was early game and we can't. For tank or healer it's not huge problem (to wait or be kicked or just wait while someone leave and take 30 minutes "penalty") because they can get fast into random play again, but for dps...
What I wish is if dungeons and trials would end up like those in wow or rift. If you played those games you would understand what I mean. You could never enter a raid in those games and go into the fight and not at least have a general idea of whats coming because if you failed chances are you caused your team to fail the fight. I feel dungeons should be that way in this game as well. If 1 person messes up it should cause the entire team to mess up. 1 slight mistake and restart.
I think people should have completed the dungeons at least 5 times to enter the random queue. So if someone didnt complete CR or LoMM that number of times he doesnt qualify for ReDQ and the same with trials.
I understand that people want to start the game and in 15 days be in end game but that shouldnt be like this. This game need to implement some kind of dungeon progression
SO, running CR 5 times. For 0 AD. Yeah, that queue is gonna be poppin' ...
I think people should have completed the dungeons at least 5 times to enter the random queue. So if someone didnt complete CR or LoMM that number of times he doesnt qualify for ReDQ and the same with trials.
I understand that people want to start the game and in 15 days be in end game but that shouldnt be like this. This game need to implement some kind of dungeon progression
SO, running CR 5 times. For 0 AD. Yeah, that queue is gonna be poppin' ...
If they were forced to run it before the random queue was unlocked then yes. They need to be forced to learn the mechanics. Most players just dont even bother doing research and expect to walk into a dungeon like CR and beat it. It's so comical. So yes, force them to run a CR 5 times with zero reward before they can start earning a reward. If they don't like it then they don't ever qualify for random queue. Everyone must do their time.
> @krumple01 said: > (Quote) > Id have to assume you are joking here because most players would just log in and log back out if that were the case. Why run something difficult if the chances of failure are higher than success when there is zero reward for success.
Because its fun, atm there is just 1 semi challenging piece of content in the game. Id gladly let everyone habe their 100k rough ad a day if that means they can make more challenging and interesting dungeons that dont have to be finishable with garbadge gear.
I think people should have completed the dungeons at least 5 times to enter the random queue. So if someone didnt complete CR or LoMM that number of times he doesnt qualify for ReDQ and the same with trials.
I understand that people want to start the game and in 15 days be in end game but that shouldnt be like this. This game need to implement some kind of dungeon progression
SO, running CR 5 times. For 0 AD. Yeah, that queue is gonna be poppin' ...
Yes, why not? take it as a requisite, like item level is but is harder to bypass than IL.
So your only concern is the queue to pop? even if you stay 2 hours in a dungeon for a fail? Ok..
It is really hard for newer players to farm AD since RSQ and RDQ doesn't reward them with a lot of AD. This is why they all want to run REDQ and RTQ, which is understandable. Sadly most players that que for the epic versions won't be able to finish it if there aren't any players to carry them. It's easy to say they shouldn't que for the epic versions if they aren't ready, but they will have to spend the entire day to get to 100k Rough AD where the rest of use do them and get over 100k easily in 30 minutes. The system needs to be looked at.
IL until mod 15 was an experience meter, but not now you can easily raise your IL.
i dont see in codg any problem, it's a lot easier now that you cant fall/(permadeath).
the real problem is CR/Lomm
Lomm is a gear check (power check)(need scaling fix)
Cr is skill/experience check(this cant stay on queue)
Until now CR is the most difficult 5man dungeon of neverwinter, cant be compared to the others and cant be carried by 1man.
I respect your opinion, but CR is not difficult.
In CR you only need a tank that takes aggro and lowers the shield when the count of one of the Sisters is 10, that does the same thing when the second boss uses the IBS and that stays alive in the last Boss. 1 good dps who knows how to control the sword and who knows how to count to 6 in permadeath mechanics in the last boss. 1 good healer. And someone who knows how to handle the book on the first boss. The other can enter the backpack and be carried easily.
There is a guide for everything on the game on youtube, but apparently it is easier to kill the difficulty of the dungeon to make the new players happy when they finish.
I miss the FBI, where 1 hit by a giant was an almost certain death.
This is an absurdly reductionist description of CR. For the first boss fight alone, you need a tank that knows how to manage the boss stacks, you need a player who can manage the tome, you need DPSers who know where to stand and how to react to different cues, you need a team that can kill the object in the center very quickly when one of the sisters dies, etc. Similarly for other mechanics in other parts of the dungeon.
The main reason why CR is difficult is because it is very mechanic-heavy, and trying to learn ANY mechanic, regardless of where it is, requires training and practice. Just like trying to learn how to play a musical instrument, or how to play a sport. Just watching a video or two isn't enough, otherwise we would all be football superstars. And CR for the longest time was a dungeon that was largely ignored by a lot of players - it was either "way too hard, buggy, and pointless", or "way too easy, buggy, and pointless". So I would surmise that the main reason why so many people are failing here is not necessarily because they are dumb, or because they are undergeared, or not because they haven't watched enough youtube videos or read enough guides, but because they simply haven't practiced the mechanics enough. So cut them a little bit of slack and why not try to help them understand the mechanics.
Your premise is absolutely right and you have a good mentality. However; there is more at stake here. Just a few days ago, I was running REDQ and got CR back to back and both times there were two players in each run that were brand new to CR. I took the time to explain the mechanics the best I could to them and both times we failed. Was my explanations bad? Do they need more practice? If you say I should allow them more practice, you are essentially saying I need to waste my time on other players so they can catch up on experience. This punishes players who have taken the time to study, learn, or get into a guild run so they can learn it. Pugs who don't take the time to study every source they can get their hands on do slap the faces of those players who have taken that time. That might sound harsh, but I do help players, I do give players a chance to prove that if you give them some simple instruction they can absorb it and play it out exactly how you describe. The problem is when even after you try to help they just dont care to absorb the details you give them. They think they can get around your warnings or that they know better than your details. This wastes players time.
One possible solution is to force players to play a stripped down version of the dungeon x number of times prior to being allowed to queue for Random queues.
So you take CR, you reduce it's difficulty, leave in the mechanics so new players can learn it but not punish them severely. Just strip out the rewards and make the dungeon basically a learning queue that is required by all players to complete first. You can do this for every dungeon and new dungeon before they can normal queue for rewards. Don't make it just 1 run requirement, but make it 5 or 10 times first. Because if its only 1 required run, they could of gotten lucky and went with a good group and now they qualify for random queue yet still don't know the mechanic. You need to make it multiple runs so they have a chance to see it when its bad, see the dungeon when its good, and see all the possible issues in the dungeon first before going into random queue.
It was a "waste of time" only if you regard practice to be a waste of time. It is not. You should be happy with yourself that you helped two other new players get better. Thank you for doing that! Good for you!
Speaking for myself, the first time I tried CR, at the final boss, it was very overwhelming. There are a LOT of mechanics going on at once. The candles, the X, the doppelgangers, all of the different moves that Strahd does, and then trying to understand what the Sunsword does which is different than what you are used to with your ordinary abilities. There is no way I could have figured it out and understood what to do just by attempting it once or twice. Even if I had watched a video beforehand. It took a lot of practice for me to understand what to do. And I still don't understand *all* of the mechanics myself (I always get tripped up by the "X" attack).
When you solo queue, you always run the risk of a run turning into a de facto training run with players unfamiliar with the content. That is just the luck of the draw. As I state above:
"The difficulty of a dungeon should be tuned to match the intended completion rate for the dungeon's intended audience."
So for dungeons like CR, there are three ways to do this:
1. Make the content easier so that the completion rate goes up. 2. Removing CR from the queue, so that the intended audience changes. 3. Yell at, shame, humiliate, and berate players until they get better.
People here seem to be focusing exclusively on #3 because they evidently have a very low opinion of most of the players here, and think that shaming and humiliation will lead to positive results. It will not.
Incidentally I browsed through a few Youtube videos of groups doing the Strahd fight. I did not see a single one in which the group obeyed all of the mechanics of the final fight, particularly the candles mechanic. All of them ignored the candles. I would love to see an instructional or guide video of a competent team beating Strahd by actually following the mechanics. Telling people to "go watch a video to learn the mechanics" doesn't help if there aren't actually any videos out there of groups obeying the mechanics.
Before being eligible for random queue rewards, veteran, high-end players should be forced to run all of the dungeons five times, without reward, in a random queue with new players who have to be taught and instructed on how to complete the dungeon. In so doing they will be demonstrating their commitment to teamwork and mentorship of their fellow players. It will help to build community and all players will end up being better for it - the new player learns how to beat more difficult content, and the veteran players will demonstrate their leadership skills and their technical competence as well as just becoming better people overall. And both players might just end up getting another friend and potential guild mate out of it. What do you think? Good idea?
> Id have to assume you are joking here because most players would just log in and log back out if that were the case. Why run something difficult if the chances of failure are higher than success when there is zero reward for success.
Because its fun, atm there is just 1 semi challenging piece of content in the game. Id gladly let everyone habe their 100k rough ad a day if that means they can make more challenging and interesting dungeons that dont have to be finishable with garbadge gear.
Then, yeah, I think a lot of people would just logout and login again for the 100k rAD and not run any dungeons. Because I'm willing to bet that the major reason why people run those dungeons in the random queue is for the rAD, in order to pay for the millions and millions of AD worth of upgrades that they have to do for their character. Not chiefly because they really really enjoy fighting Strahd.
I have been playing this game for a while now, and the one constant theme I have seen is that players will tend to take the path of least resistance for the rewards. Very few are motivated to do a difficult dungeon for very poor rewards, "just for the fun of it". Maybe you are part of those very few people who are. Well then good for you. But I also suspect that if the devs ever decided to remove or bind the rings from TOMM, you would suddenly no longer feel as inspired to run the "challenging and interesting dungeon" that is TOMM.
Incidentally I browsed through a few Youtube videos of groups doing the Strahd fight. I did not see a single one in which the group obeyed all of the mechanics of the final fight, particularly the candles mechanic. All of them ignored the candles. I would love to see an instructional or guide video of a competent team beating Strahd by actually following the mechanics. Telling people to "go watch a video to learn the mechanics" doesn't help if there aren't actually any videos out there of groups obeying the mechanics.
If by "ignoring the candle mechanics" you mean "staying in the same place and getting hit instead of running around to avoid the explosions" then PLEASE IGNORE THE MECHANIC. It's terrible to heal when people start running around, mostly because they will get it wrong some time. Not to mention overlapping mechanics that may happen at the same time. A decent amount of HP + Hallowed Ground or Astral Shield is more than enough to survive, even before they nerfed the explosion damage.
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I understand that people want to start the game and in 15 days be in end game but that shouldnt be like this. This game need to implement some kind of dungeon progression
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a) 20% more difficult, then the normal Queues
b) give 33% more Rad or actual loot
c) should reduce the kick time to 1 min. (4 of 5) and 2 min (3 of 5)
d) and one should succsseed at least once in normal more/quest line
This would makes scence …
or. like the original poster proposed,
take the difficult Things out … then ist a fast rush to get Rad … also ok for me.
Nix*
Item level is just not the best way to handle how a dungeon is locked at because all people do is rush to that level and enter and not have the stats.
Of the last dungeons that were released LoMM is certainly the easiest, but it is only easy for those who have the right equipment and knowledge of the game. I keep imagining a player suffering to break a mimic in LoMM what he would do if he saw Orcus in ToNG the first week he released
I respect your opinion, but CR is not difficult.
In CR you only need a tank that takes aggro and lowers the shield when the count of one of the Sisters is 10, that does the same thing when the second boss uses the IBS and that stays alive in the last Boss. 1 good dps who knows how to control the sword and who knows how to count to 6 in permadeath mechanics in the last boss. 1 good healer. And someone who knows how to handle the book on the first boss. The other can enter the backpack and be carried easily.
There is a guide for everything on the game on youtube, but apparently it is easier to kill the difficulty of the dungeon to make the new players happy when they finish.
I miss the FBI, where 1 hit by a giant was an almost certain death.
I do want to be surprised during my first run to challenge in live my skill (adapt, improve, overcome... you know the meme) rather than to pre-know what to do.
I do want to figure out things by myseIf and try to resolve a problem with my own brain.
I do want to try, die, retry, developing brick by brick an idea of this boss, this dungeon, ending with a strategy "of my own" (though it may come to be the same as what track-openers figured month ago in preview, I don't pretend to be a genius :P).
And I absolutely love players who try to do the same, even if it means for me that sometimes i would get stuck 1h30 in ToNG with 3 newplayers who are trying to figure out what's up on Ras Nsi. These players would likely end in my friendlist, and 6 months later they will surely become sure value as teammates for a quick run of any dungeon.
Devs give us a "brain teasers" / "puzzles" to play with... that players who follow guides/tutos/copy-paste builds don't even try to solve...
Like sheeps, they are simply listening/reading the walkthrough, following the paths, the metas, the builds made by players with enough braincells to be shepherds.
And part of those sheeps are also the first to quickly complain and mock someone who doesn't know how to handle a boss...
I'm pretty sure any shepherds who make tutos/videos or just explain in live, when they enter alone on a random queue and get new/unexperienced players in the party, will at least try a while to figure out how to make the party go through this dungeon, chatting and asking to try alternate choices and tactics.
Personnally, though it's still happen time to time, matchmaking rarely gives me random players who are at the same time unable to understand english/french + uterly bad at their job + not even trying to understand the mechanics.
Sure, along the years i've got tons of party who wiped on Drufy, on Arcturia, on Orcus, on Periclite, one Ras Nsi, on Sisters, on Straad, on Nocturia, etc. Some led to dungeon failures/leavers/kick. Most saw party briefings, open tactical discussions, alternate choices, new/unexperienced player big improvements in handling the boss, and success (and new members joining my guild or friends in my friendlist).
"Meta" is not an end in itself, because it's evolving continously all the time even when nothing change in the game, as some shepherds can still discover new innovative ways to do something.
Being forced to think out of the box, because your party is weak or unexperienced, can lead to new ideas, new solutions to the dungeons equation. Why should I search another solution at "a*b=24" when i know that 4x6 = 24 ? Must I have a 4 and a 6 in my party all the time ? Damn, i have three 2 and one 3 with me... it's out of the meta, so i don't even try to solve the equation with these 4 numbers because it will take too much of my time ?
Random queues, for me, is trying to always solve a random equation. I will hard try to get to the end, even with seemingly impossible odds. Yeah sometimes it fails ("c'est le jeu ma pauv' Lucette"), is it really a big deal ? And sometimes it's a success.
That's much more fun than a quick rush run trampling the dungeon with everyone silent because there is no time. If i want to do for these kind of rush-run, premade it is.
Honestly, how many players around there are considering themselves veterans/experienced and have trouble getting their 100k rAD/day ?
Damn, i'm sitting over a 10M rAD stockpile only playing 2-3h/day... i can spend once in a while more time than usual in a dungeon to help/explain/carry/let them figure it out...
Anyway i suggest also a popup once you enter the dungeons that gives you information like:
You are DPS, with your stats you will have in this dungeon:
50k armor pen (you will do -X% less damage): recommended 60k Armor pen
40K defense (you will receive +Y% more damage): recommended 60K Defense
.... etc.
So players are at least informed about what they are doing wrong.
Caturday Survivor
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If more people was that way things would be different.
The difficulty of a dungeon should be tuned to match the intended completion rate for the dungeon's intended audience.
The devs have previously said (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) that they aim for something like 90+% completion rates for random queue dungeons.
And, dungeons being in the random queue (as opposed to, say, TOMM, or to CODG/CR before Mod 18), suggests that the indented audience is the general population of players, not a subset of highly skilled/geared players.
So if the completion rates for dungeons like CODG/CR/LOMM in the random queue now in Mod 18, are "too low" by the devs' metric, then this suggests that these dungeons are too hard for the intended audience.
You can berate players all you want for not meeting your standards of play, but that doesn't change the empirical truth of what was stated above.
The main reason why CR is difficult is because it is very mechanic-heavy, and trying to learn ANY mechanic, regardless of where it is, requires training and practice. Just like trying to learn how to play a musical instrument, or how to play a sport. Just watching a video or two isn't enough, otherwise we would all be football superstars. And CR for the longest time was a dungeon that was largely ignored by a lot of players - it was either "way too hard, buggy, and pointless", or "way too easy, buggy, and pointless". So I would surmise that the main reason why so many people are failing here is not necessarily because they are dumb, or because they are undergeared, or not because they haven't watched enough youtube videos or read enough guides, but because they simply haven't practiced the mechanics enough. So cut them a little bit of slack and why not try to help them understand the mechanics.
One possible solution is to force players to play a stripped down version of the dungeon x number of times prior to being allowed to queue for Random queues.
So you take CR, you reduce it's difficulty, leave in the mechanics so new players can learn it but not punish them severely. Just strip out the rewards and make the dungeon basically a learning queue that is required by all players to complete first. You can do this for every dungeon and new dungeon before they can normal queue for rewards. Don't make it just 1 run requirement, but make it 5 or 10 times first. Because if its only 1 required run, they could of gotten lucky and went with a good group and now they qualify for random queue yet still don't know the mechanic. You need to make it multiple runs so they have a chance to see it when its bad, see the dungeon when its good, and see all the possible issues in the dungeon first before going into random queue.
> (Quote)
> This is an absurdly reductionist description of CR. For the first boss fight alone, you need a tank that knows how to manage the boss stacks, you need a player who can manage the tome, you need DPSers who know where to stand and how to react to different cues, you need a team that can kill the object in the center very quickly when one of the sisters dies, etc. Similarly for other mechanics in other parts of the dungeon.
>
> The main reason why CR is difficult is because it is very mechanic-heavy, and trying to learn ANY mechanic, regardless of where it is, requires training and practice. Just like trying to learn how to play a musical instrument, or how to play a sport. Just watching a video or two isn't enough, otherwise we would all be football superstars. And CR for the longest time was a dungeon that was largely ignored by a lot of players - it was either "way too hard, buggy, and pointless", or "way too easy, buggy, and pointless". So I would surmise that the main reason why so many people are failing here is not necessarily because they are dumb, or because they are undergeared, or not because they haven't watched enough youtube videos or read enough guides, but because they simply haven't practiced the mechanics enough. So cut them a little bit of slack and why not try to help them understand the mechanics.
Amazing how ppl complain that there are dungeons where u need to acutally do stuff.
How about we just give everyone the AD they would get from random ques on login, and then tune dungeons up so they are fun again.
I feel dungeons should be that way in this game as well. If 1 person messes up it should cause the entire team to mess up.
1 slight mistake and restart.
SO, running CR 5 times. For 0 AD. Yeah, that queue is gonna be poppin' ...
> (Quote)
> Id have to assume you are joking here because most players would just log in and log back out if that were the case. Why run something difficult if the chances of failure are higher than success when there is zero reward for success.
Because its fun, atm there is just 1 semi challenging piece of content in the game. Id gladly let everyone habe their 100k rough ad a day if that means they can make more challenging and interesting dungeons that dont have to be finishable with garbadge gear.
> (Quote)
>
> SO, running CR 5 times. For 0 AD. Yeah, that queue is gonna be poppin' ...
Actually the dungeon itself has 2 chests that give rewards, amazing how that works right?
So your only concern is the queue to pop? even if you stay 2 hours in a dungeon for a fail? Ok..
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
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Speaking for myself, the first time I tried CR, at the final boss, it was very overwhelming. There are a LOT of mechanics going on at once. The candles, the X, the doppelgangers, all of the different moves that Strahd does, and then trying to understand what the Sunsword does which is different than what you are used to with your ordinary abilities. There is no way I could have figured it out and understood what to do just by attempting it once or twice. Even if I had watched a video beforehand. It took a lot of practice for me to understand what to do. And I still don't understand *all* of the mechanics myself (I always get tripped up by the "X" attack).
When you solo queue, you always run the risk of a run turning into a de facto training run with players unfamiliar with the content. That is just the luck of the draw. As I state above:
"The difficulty of a dungeon should be tuned to match the intended completion rate for the dungeon's intended audience."
So for dungeons like CR, there are three ways to do this:
1. Make the content easier so that the completion rate goes up.
2. Removing CR from the queue, so that the intended audience changes.
3. Yell at, shame, humiliate, and berate players until they get better.
People here seem to be focusing exclusively on #3 because they evidently have a very low opinion of most of the players here, and think that shaming and humiliation will lead to positive results. It will not.
Before being eligible for random queue rewards, veteran, high-end players should be forced to run all of the dungeons five times, without reward, in a random queue with new players who have to be taught and instructed on how to complete the dungeon. In so doing they will be demonstrating their commitment to teamwork and mentorship of their fellow players. It will help to build community and all players will end up being better for it - the new player learns how to beat more difficult content, and the veteran players will demonstrate their leadership skills and their technical competence as well as just becoming better people overall. And both players might just end up getting another friend and potential guild mate out of it. What do you think? Good idea?
I have been playing this game for a while now, and the one constant theme I have seen is that players will tend to take the path of least resistance for the rewards. Very few are motivated to do a difficult dungeon for very poor rewards, "just for the fun of it". Maybe you are part of those very few people who are. Well then good for you. But I also suspect that if the devs ever decided to remove or bind the rings from TOMM, you would suddenly no longer feel as inspired to run the "challenging and interesting dungeon" that is TOMM.