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CDP Topic: VIP

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  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 352 Arc User
    edited January 24
    So, now that I've got more time to think about the questions:

    The rate of free keys:
    I would say a hard 1 key/day and increase the cost of VIP to align with the lockbox changes. I can't argue it financially, as no data is presented, but I'd argue that the proposed approach misses the point of lootboxing.

    People who want it as an investment are looking in raw numbers and how to optimize their spending. They will factor in everything to an end result, so they are pretty easy to be catered to, just give them a good value.

    But, most people don't know the chances, can't rationally internalize it and don't care. Getting the most "chances" to roll and feel individual rolls to be rewarded by what they've got is the important. They are not inherently wrong, they are just looking it differently, from an entertainment standpoint. And from that perspective, stating how 3x chances for 10 key being objectively better than the current is a hollow argument, because it is not based on what they want, but to persuade them to something they would not prefer. It's not just that it's against your interest as they will be the people who will accept "worse" deals by like buying VIP when it's not on-sale, but ignoring what they like in it for those that are already persuaded to buy it is just lost sales.

    Alternates to keys:
    Sounds great. I'm not sure if this question is framed properly, as I can't see people arguing for less, but glad that the idea got introduced and as pointed out before me, I would like the tradebars to take that currency role. Mostly, because that will make a tradebar store rework, that I'd support, but that's an other topic. The other reason is because tradebars are already an indirect VIP currency.

    Current Benefits: Probably everything with different priorities, but I wouldn't single out anything as for me, VIP is more of a bundle of things to get. I actually get the potions and sell it for gold for my workshop, sometimes on multiple character.

    Auction House:
    I agree, but this also devalues the VIP by a lot and I think it's not really in the topic of VIP. I would suggest to have a fee for taking things down before the timer based on the time left, so people would not just post everything for 5 days and take down after like 10 minutes to repost it for 5 more days. Yes, maybe even VIP members should be paying that cost or a much lowered cost, but I think there is no problem by making the initial posting cost no AD, but the fact that it can be retracted and reposted without a cost just to undercut others. I kind of hate the initial posting cost, because before VIP, if I got a really good drop, I'd find myself unable to sell it because I'd lack the posting fee to do so, so I had to hold on a thing before I got the money to post it. Maybe if the posting fee would be much lower, but that's more of a thing with the AH. On the topic, I want VIP to have no posting fee, because I want to not have posting fee.

    New Benefits: So I guess the following benefits are the example benefits and the already mentioned things.

    Higher AD caps: I can't state anything factual without knowing the data and systemwide I can see it being good/bad depending on that, but if there's no solid reason for it, then avoid doing so. Giving VIP players stuff instead of AD naturally gets it's price where it should be, while just giving AD makes a whole lot of mess that should be precalculated and probably updated over-time.

    Increased health gain from VIP: I think as a concept, reworking VIP to be a percentage of HP just makes more sense so it does not get marginalised later. The how much more HP is probably depends on how prevalent VIP should be in endgame content.

    Change loadout away from campfire: Uhm, that looks like a huge wrench in the design of campfires and loadouts and probably exploitable as well (by trying to change role during bossfights like Nostura for the heal phase at the end). If this gets sufficiently dealt with, it sounds great.

    What I would like to see as a "new" benefit:

    Having "official" means to hotkey VIP bonuses, like summon vendor/bank.
  • powerpuff#6508 powerpuff Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    I had VIP when mod 15 (?) came out and it switched from giving ID scrolls to health potions, among other things. I felt cheated then even if the change was not so consequential. So from that experience, I suggest you think LONG and HARD about how you make changes and how you communicate those changes in advance of any implementation. Cryptic is making a lot of noise about communicating. I'll wager big money that most players don't read the forums - so posting here isn't really reaching your player base. Be warned. And yeah, perhaps I'm still a little angry about that (in addition to other things).

    But I do have a suggestion. And no I'm not going to use your ridiculous format. Your current VIP levels don't really make much sense nor offer an incentive to try it because it is expensive. So introduce tiers. A basic level would offer the convenience features of VIP - access to travel signpost, bank, and vendor. (NB - access to seal vendor and direct transfer to workshop not terribly useful IMO). This would be cheap - really cheap. Higher tiers can offer the keys, discounts, etc.

    One thing you might consider as an incentive for VIP - invoking on any char invokes for all chars. This is such an annoyance having to switch chars all the time to invoke.

  • chnops68chnops68 Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    @oremonger#9999
    @silverrrrrrr
    I second the posts made by these two, I agree with what most people are saying in reply to the post made by Cryptic about the VIP program.

    I am not gifted with the ability to put my thoughts down in print that would accurately describe what I want to convey so I’m not going to try. Silvery and Oremonger basically said what I would have attempted to say.

    I just want to highlight these points. I paid with money, NOT ZEN, for VIP and I own 365 days of vip give or take.
    Every December I buy a year of VIP with money, NOT ZEN. I did this thinking I have bought 365 keys..... IF you “Take” these keys which I bought in advance... never mind.
    It’s not stealing maybe because it likely says somewhere you have the right to do what you want because it’s your game and I actually agree with that.
    Still, it will be the one hair left on my camels back. I started playing 8/19/2015 and I’m still playing today.
    I already know Cryptic is going to do what Cryptic is going to do, so, may I please suggest, if you do change VIP, please allow for 2 VIP types, 1.) LEGACY VIP for people like me who already paid for the service, which would expire and could not be renewed at the end of my VIP count down, and 2.) *NEW* VIP that will replace VIP once LEGACY VIP expire and for new VIP purchases. That would satisfy me personally because we both get what we want.

    You could even give your customers who have existing VIP the option of Lagacy VIP (until existing VIP expires) or Swich to the New VIP. (Because ‘insert reason here’)

    If you gave me the choice to keep what I had or chose what’s behind curtain A, well, then I become responsible for that choice.

    Anyway, thanks to all who have made NWO because Ive really enjoyed it and look forward to many more years of playing NWO. I will be playing your game until you turn the servers off.
  • diadem#1300 diadem Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    This VIP idea is the exact reason why everyone is leaving the game. You want to reward us by taking stuff from us and then letting us buy it back?

    Keys: If we have a higher drop rate but less keys then we end up with the exact same chance to get anything good unless we BUY more keys in the Zen store. So this is a obvious cash grab

    Vip store: We can use our VIP on in game items? So let's just make this concept simple if you take our reroll tokens and the let us BUY reroll tokens you didn't add value to us you stole value from us. If I see you on the street and rob you then the next day give you your wallet back I am not a great guy that returned your wallet i am a theif and that is basically what you are doing with this idea.

    In closing if you actually want to make this game survive what u need to do is simple. Stop <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> with <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> like VIP that isn't broke and no one cares about and start worrying about:

    1. Items like the Alpha Compy that cost millions in AD and are still broken. It is ridiculous to have to refresh my comp after every loading screen figure it out.
    2. Stop "fixing" things by nerfing other stuff. We are spending our AD to buy items like the demo set and then you just decide to nerf the whole thing because you can be bothered to put in some effort to make something new to replace it that is actually good.
    3. Learn your player base. This VIP discussion shows how little you know about us. You want to make less keys for VIP but half my friends only log on daily to grab their key. They won't log on more if give them an option to use VIP on enchanting stones and reroll token. You guys just don't get it.

    In closing today is my payday and I normally spend a good amount on zen on my paydays atleast I saw this post before I did that.
  • zebulondaktoidzebulondaktoid Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    I think getting rid of the VIP ranks would actually cut your revenue. When I first bought VIP I paid for several months worth in advance with cash because I wanted those additional benefits. If I had the option of just buying one month of VIP with all the benefits, I would have just bought one month and saved my AD and converted to ZEN to buy it on a monthly basis.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,330 Arc User
    edited January 24

    So, now that I've got more time to think about the questions:

    The rate of free keys:
    I would say a hard 1 key/day and increase the cost of VIP to align with the lockbox changes. I can't argue it financially, as no data is presented, but I'd argue that the proposed approach misses the point of lootboxing.

    People who want it as an investment are looking in raw numbers and how to optimize their spending. They will factor in everything to an end result, so they are pretty easy to be catered to, just give them a good value.

    But, most people don't know the chances, can't rationally internalize it and don't care. Getting the most "chances" to roll and feel individual rolls to be rewarded by what they've got is the important. They are not inherently wrong, they are just looking it differently, from an entertainment standpoint. And from that perspective, stating how 3x chances for 10 key being objectively better than the current is a hollow argument, because it is not based on what they want, but to persuade them to something they would not prefer. It's not just that it's against your interest as they will be the people who will accept "worse" deals by like buying VIP when it's not on-sale, but ignoring what they like in it for those that are already persuaded to buy it is just lost sales.

    Alternates to keys:
    Sounds great. I'm not sure if this question is framed properly, as I can't see people arguing for less, but glad that the idea got introduced and as pointed out before me, I would like the tradebars to take that currency role. Mostly, because that will make a tradebar store rework, that I'd support, but that's an other topic. The other reason is because tradebars are already an indirect VIP currency.

    Current Benefits: Probably everything with different priorities, but I wouldn't single out anything as for me, VIP is more of a bundle of things to get. I actually get the potions and sell it for gold for my workshop, sometimes on multiple character.

    Auction House:
    I agree, but this also devalues the VIP by a lot and I think it's not really in the topic of VIP. I would suggest to have a fee for taking things down before the timer based on the time left, so people would not just post everything for 5 days and take down after like 10 minutes to repost it for 5 more days. Yes, maybe even VIP members should be paying that cost or a much lowered cost, but I think there is no problem by making the initial posting cost no AD, but the fact that it can be retracted and reposted without a cost just to undercut others. I kind of hate the initial posting cost, because before VIP, if I got a really good drop, I'd find myself unable to sell it because I'd lack the posting fee to do so, so I had to hold on a thing before I got the money to post it. Maybe if the posting fee would be much lower, but that's more of a thing with the AH. On the topic, I want VIP to have no posting fee, because I want to not have posting fee.

    New Benefits: So I guess the following benefits are the example benefits and the already mentioned things.

    Higher AD caps: I can't state anything factual without knowing the data and systemwide I can see it being good/bad depending on that, but if there's no solid reason for it, then avoid doing so. Giving VIP players stuff instead of AD naturally gets it's price where it should be, while just giving AD makes a whole lot of mess that should be precalculated and probably updated over-time.

    Increased health gain from VIP: I think as a concept, reworking VIP to be a percentage of HP just makes more sense so it does not get marginalised later. The how much more HP is probably depends on how prevalent VIP should be in endgame content.

    Change loadout away from campfire: Uhm, that looks like a huge wrench in the design of campfires and loadouts and probably exploitable as well (by trying to change role during bossfights like Nostura for the heal phase at the end). If this gets sufficiently dealt with, it sounds great.

    What I would like to see as a "new" benefit:

    Having "official" means to hotkey VIP bonuses, like summon vendor/bank.

    if you take down an item to relist that you've just put up, to undercut as you say, that means YOU"VE been undercut and you are responding to that. if you can't respond to that then your thing will never sell. it's part of a free market. there is nothing wrong with undercutting. you are taking away free will by not letting the market adjust as it needs to. there are a lot of strategies you can employ. you can wait it out (which I normally do) you can engage in an aggressive battle. you can match prices. the underlying problem here isn't the ah. it's the economy around it. there aren't enough ways to make ad in game for lower level players with the many changes that have happened. farmable things aren't something you can monetize anymore. Gold has no value. mc supplies has no value. the daily keys has no value. there are few items that drop in dungeons and most of it isn' tthings that people actually need in the game. the only gear that is selling was aimed at the ultra elite this time around. the hunts (I can't speak for mod 18) that used to have income generating things, (lures that had good gear drops like chult, maps from somi) all were made bound to account more or less for their equivalent in modern content. modern lockboxes no longer have good drops 99 percent of the time.

    this is all coupled with people spending less because they're down about the state of the game. the state of their toon, the lack of things to do and keep them engaged..

    the result of this is less money for the auction house making things slower to sell. so people get upset when they're undercut. when really supply and demand are unequal.


  • zebulondaktoidzebulondaktoid Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    edited January 24
    Regarding undercutting people on the AH, why not just apply a timestamp to anything that is taken down from the AH to stop it being immediately re-posted? This would obviously have an effect on stacking items, but I think that would be a fairly minor problem. One problem people sometimes experience when posting to the AH is that they may occasionally mistype. That might not be a problem if you miss out a zero and are able to take the item down before it sells, but if you type an additional zero it could lead to a high posting fee for something that will never sell.
  • baronvonboombaronvonboom Member Posts: 536 Arc User
    edited January 24
    Personal preface:
    Beta/Launch player with on/off periods either due to conflict with design choices or activity in other MMOs. Currently enjoying the changes especially to AD gain & refinement as it makes time spent in game feel more rewarding. Also helps bridge the gap between F2P & paying customers.

    Rate of free keys:
    Any changes should be an optional added feature rather than a detraction from the current rate of 30 a month. A x2 or x3 isnt enough of an incentive when lockbox rates are abysmal for top tier prizes (not a dig at Cryptic its just industry standard)
    Maybe add those key choices on the ViP claim page such as 30/1, 15/2, 8/3 etc
    Options & Value are the keywords for me personally with the current ViP sitting nicely for value for money based on the keys alone. Without those I probably wouldnt buy it.

    Alternates to keys:
    We already have the trade bars which could just be expanded & possibly a better drop rate of them for ViP players. Zero need for another currency to clog the interface & confuse players.

    Ranks, current & new benefits:
    Personally only rank 6 so obviously the idea of being granted rank 12 is tempting but its not something I would want as it completely undermines all the money & work people have put into getting there.
    Open to the idea of new additional ranks that grant bigger & better benefits, better drop rates, increased refine limit at max rank etc
    The loadout change sounds interesting but with campfires located throughout most instances it seems more like padding than anything useful. In fight loadout changes are a big no no & you might as well add a pause button if going that route.
    Current benefits that are of most use to me are the signpost, mail & banking with the injury invulnerability one that I want.

    Auction House:
    While any monopoly on the market is a negative its something that exists in nearly every MMO & will do regardless of the listing cost. Some players have enough in game wealth that the cost is negligible & as such removing this feature would hurt more normal players than punish those manipulating it.

    Additional thoughts:

    Free ViP

    Incorporate a ViP exp/level gain, instead of getting the ad/refine reward for every additional level post 80 make it go towards levels in ViP. Rank gain & rate obviously wouldnt be 1/1 and would need to be suitably prolonged/padded. Not only does this add to the idea of parity for F2P players it could be an incentive to stay & possible retention asset.

    Cash only ViP

    Controversial maybe but an additional seperate RMT ViP purchase option with benefits would appeal to me as its the only way I purchase it anyway. Free vanity pet per month, buffs etc anything that could be added that wouldnt sway it too much into the P2W territory & mob that would follow.

    Many more ideas swirling around but probably fall into different territory.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,330 Arc User
    edited January 24

    <
    if you take down an item to relist that you've just put up, to undercut as you say, that means YOU"VE been undercut and you are responding to that. if you can't respond to that then your thing will never sell. it's part of a free market.

    The biggest fault with free markets, both in the real world and in game is that they are very good at creating wealth inequality. People who have market power get to throw that power around with no consequence and the net result is that the little guy suffers.
    the little guy suffers more if he has no chance to play. I somehow managed to go from poor pauper to decently well off even though there are pressures from the giants in the market. if the market had not had the listing fees removed on the front end and I was not able to play the market as I saw fit I'd have quit the game because I'd never have become wealth enough to enjoy the game. the big guy has a lot more control of the market if most of the little guys are unable to compete in the first place.


  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 8,554 Arc User
    Personally, I don't see undercut is an issue at all. This makes the buyer happy. If I put on buyer's head, I say please do more undercut.

    Personally, as a seller, I don't do undercut because I consider it is waste of my time and waste of potential value. I do upper cut and the no posting fee allows me to do uppercut. This part will not make buyer happy though.
  • franklin223franklin223 Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    > @thefabricant said:
    > (Quote)
    > The biggest fault with free markets, both in the real world and in game is that they are very good at creating wealth inequality. People who have market power get to throw that power around with no consequence and the net result is that the little guy suffers

    But n the end, the buyer benefits from all the undercutting which is great for the economy because it stimulates demand.
  • zebulondaktoidzebulondaktoid Member Posts: 67 Arc User

    <
    if you take down an item to relist that you've just put up, to undercut as you say, that means YOU"VE been undercut and you are responding to that. if you can't respond to that then your thing will never sell. it's part of a free market.

    The biggest fault with free markets, both in the real world and in game is that they are very good at creating wealth inequality. People who have market power get to throw that power around with no consequence and the net result is that the little guy suffers.
    So it is realistic at least.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,330 Arc User

    > @thefabricant said:

    > (Quote)

    > The biggest fault with free markets, both in the real world and in game is that they are very good at creating wealth inequality. People who have market power get to throw that power around with no consequence and the net result is that the little guy suffers



    But n the end, the buyer benefits from all the undercutting which is great for the economy because it stimulates demand.

    That is not the result in NW. The result is in NW is, for the most part, like this:

    Player 1 is a big time crafter. Crafts 1000's of items, has billions of AD (not an exaggeration).
    Player 2 is a small time crafter, wants to craft 1 or 2 items.

    Player 2 posts an item, tries to undercut player 1, who is listing basically everything. Player 1 retaliates. The prices drop for a while, up to a point where it is no longer profitable to sell items and player 2 is selling at a loss (this is a reality). At this point, player 1 buys up player 2's item, relists both items for much higher and sells both for profit. Player 2 makes a loss, cannot continue crafting and quits crafting because of this. The real buyers (not the 2 fighting the AH war), then pay the inflated place of the monopoly (player 1).

    That is the reality for the NW AH.

    <
    if you take down an item to relist that you've just put up, to undercut as you say, that means YOU"VE been undercut and you are responding to that. if you can't respond to that then your thing will never sell. it's part of a free market.

    The biggest fault with free markets, both in the real world and in game is that they are very good at creating wealth inequality. People who have market power get to throw that power around with no consequence and the net result is that the little guy suffers.
    the little guy suffers more if he has no chance to play. I somehow managed to go from poor pauper to decently well off even though there are pressures from the giants in the market. if the market had not had the listing fees removed on the front end and I was not able to play the market as I saw fit I'd have quit the game because I'd never have become wealth enough to enjoy the game. the big guy has a lot more control of the market if most of the little guys are unable to compete in the first place.
    The point of the posting fee is to impose a restriction on the power of monopolistic players. The opportunity to sell items still exists and the opportunity to make AD. It is just harder for a monopoly to control sectors of the market.
    you can't exert this kind of control without hurting the little guy worse. it sounds to me like some controls need to be placed on the billionaires not the average player.


  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,243 Arc User
    edited January 24



    you can't exert this kind of control without hurting the little guy worse. it sounds to me like some controls need to be placed on the billionaires not the average player.

    It does hurt the big guy more, because he is getting undercut on many more items and has many more items that they need to trade. It limits their trade. The little guy only has 1 or 2 items. Furthermore, the net result of this change is that players who do not want to risk the cut will trade items for items, rather than items for AD. There is still no cut on this type of interaction and both the little guy and the big guy can do this type of trading, its just far more inefficient for the big guy because he has so many items to trade.

  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 8,554 Arc User


    That is not the result in NW. The result is in NW is, for the most part, like this:

    Player 1 is a big time crafter. Crafts 1000's of items, has billions of AD (not an exaggeration).
    Player 2 is a small time crafter, wants to craft 1 or 2 items.

    Player 2 posts an item, tries to undercut player 1, who is listing basically everything. Player 1 retaliates. The prices drop for a while, up to a point where it is no longer profitable to sell items and player 2 is selling at a loss (this is a reality). At this point, player 1 buys up player 2's item, relists both items for much higher and sells both for profit. Player 2 makes a loss, cannot continue crafting and quits crafting because of this. The real buyers (not the 2 fighting the AH war), then pay the inflated place of the monopoly (player 1).

    That is the reality for the NW AH.

    Removing no posting fee does not solve that situation. Player 1 can afford the posting fee for the sake of getting rid of Player 2. Player 2 cannot afford the posting fee to undercut the second time.

    I saw that was done before VIP and I knew a person who were doing that as Player 1.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,330 Arc User

    > @thefabricant said:

    > (Quote)

    > The biggest fault with free markets, both in the real world and in game is that they are very good at creating wealth inequality. People who have market power get to throw that power around with no consequence and the net result is that the little guy suffers



    But n the end, the buyer benefits from all the undercutting which is great for the economy because it stimulates demand.

    That is not the result in NW. The result is in NW is, for the most part, like this:

    Player 1 is a big time crafter. Crafts 1000's of items, has billions of AD (not an exaggeration).
    Player 2 is a small time crafter, wants to craft 1 or 2 items.

    Player 2 posts an item, tries to undercut player 1, who is listing basically everything. Player 1 retaliates. The prices drop for a while, up to a point where it is no longer profitable to sell items and player 2 is selling at a loss (this is a reality). At this point, player 1 buys up player 2's item, relists both items for much higher and sells both for profit. Player 2 makes a loss, cannot continue crafting and quits crafting because of this. The real buyers (not the 2 fighting the AH war), then pay the inflated place of the monopoly (player 1).

    That is the reality for the NW AH.

    <
    if you take down an item to relist that you've just put up, to undercut as you say, that means YOU"VE been undercut and you are responding to that. if you can't respond to that then your thing will never sell. it's part of a free market.

    The biggest fault with free markets, both in the real world and in game is that they are very good at creating wealth inequality. People who have market power get to throw that power around with no consequence and the net result is that the little guy suffers.
    the little guy suffers more if he has no chance to play. I somehow managed to go from poor pauper to decently well off even though there are pressures from the giants in the market. if the market had not had the listing fees removed on the front end and I was not able to play the market as I saw fit I'd have quit the game because I'd never have become wealth enough to enjoy the game. the big guy has a lot more control of the market if most of the little guys are unable to compete in the first place.
    The point of the posting fee is to impose a restriction on the power of monopolistic players. The opportunity to sell items still exists and the opportunity to make AD. It is just harder for a monopoly to control sectors of the market.
    you can't exert this kind of control without hurting the little guy worse. it sounds to me like some controls need to be placed on the billionaires not the average player.
    maybe they need to set up a charity for new players. a mentor program that rewards the billionaires for taking on a new player and showering them with love. you could have the title sugar daddy with set of items to decorate your workshop as one example. willinging trashing 100 mil for a title or achievement of some sort. all kinds of things. or they could just make it so that if you have a certain amount of zen you have a higher fee on the auction house then everyone else. i'm sure there are other clever wealth taxes they could find.


  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 461 Arc User
    edited January 24
    About the no AH posting fee, this (along with AD store discount) was actually the reason I purchased VIP w/ $ in the first place, the QoL percs have always been a minor factor to keeping the VIP active. It is powerful as @thefabricant says, I would strongly caution removing the perk from VIP, and if you did so, remove the posting fee from the ah entirely (for everyone).

    I don't know if "undercutting" on the AH is actually a problem, it reduces cost for buyers and reflects supply and demand. If the supply of an item is so high that rapid undercutting is a viable option, the the prices will drop on the items reflecting higher supply, and if the lower priced items are not being bought, the undercutting continues reflecting lower demand. The AH posting fee really just has the effect of slowing this process down.

    Someone stated that the problem is "people with huge buying power". I'm guilty of this myself (though on a smaller scale), having bought out every last demo girdle half a year ago when they were 200-5000 ad each (depending on quality), and reselling them for a huge profit margin (2k - 50k), hoarding the supply until a certain lockbox went out of circulation, and letting it trickle out. While it's not much individually, I did make a couple million ad off the venture after selling em all. On the other hand, how did the prices get so low? Undercutting and high enough drop rates from certain lockboxes (low demand / high supply). Is this actually a problem though? I don't know, I'm not an economist.

    If competition is actually the problem on the AH, I think the only other option is having fixed prices and whoever posts first sell first. I don't think people would really like this and determining the prices for every item in the game would be a nightmare.

    Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that I'm not entirely convinced that having no AH posting fee is actually a problem, or that there is a problem with the AH (other than not being responsive sometimes) at all. Maybe there is a problem with there being too much ad in the game ("free floating ad" or w/e), but there are ways to reduce the amount of AD in the game. For example, right now there is over 12 Billion AD sitting in the ZAX, Cryptic/PWE could simply buy this AD themselves and then delete it, sending it into the void, *poof* 12 Billion AD leftover from a bygone era, gone, taken by Mystra to help mend the Weave.

  • brewaldbrewald Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 193 Arc User
    edited January 24
    Hi,

    To start, thank for the CDP and the exchange opportunity between Cryptic Studio and the players community!

    My feedback about the current VIP system:

    Bonus:
    I think they are correct with QoL (post, bank, teleport...)
    For the reductions, like fees for AH, Wonderous Bazar, its good too
    Daily Key: Its one of the main bonus of the VIP. Removing it risk to be cause of VIP leaving for many players.
    Immunity of injuries was a big error for my part, at this level, you can remove all the traps in the game, and by the way remove the skill to disarm them for the rogues...

    About VIP Ranks:
    Removing all rank for having just one wii be a big error! Peoples have spend time and money to buy it, how will you explain them thits not a new nerf???
    If you do it, sell the VIP access at the same price than 2*6 Month.
    Majority of players wait for new ranks, not the opposite.


    My suggestions for a modification of the VIP:
    - Adding new ranks
    How? One idea: After one year at lvl 12 you are granted to lvl 13 and have access to new bonus...
    - Permanent Reduction to the Zen Market (depending of VIP Rank)
    - Adding new services on Zen Market for VIP, like have the possibility to buy a ticket what give the possibility to unbind a legendary mount, a legendary pet from one character and bind it to an other one (BtC -> BtA ->BtC).
    - Since the character creation we have differents deyties, it could be the moment to add divine bonus (differents ones depending of the deyti.

    Just one point Id like to warm:
    More than more countries have passed laws agains Games Addiction, the lockbox enter under this law due to the rng, removing Lockbox of the game is a point to take in considaration. By the way it solve the problem of the daily key.
    Improving the loot table of dungeon chests could be a solution.


    Brew.
    Post edited by brewald on
    Brewald - GWF 18.3k
    Eleonore - CW Mof Renegade 17.5k
    Harlgard le Vieux - OP Prot 18.3k
    Valrik - DC AC 18.2k
    Furiela - SW Temp 18.1k
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 352 Arc User
    edited January 24

    So, now that I've got more time to think about the questions:

    The rate of free keys:
    I would say a hard 1 key/day and increase the cost of VIP to align with the lockbox changes. I can't argue it financially, as no data is presented, but I'd argue that the proposed approach misses the point of lootboxing.

    People who want it as an investment are looking in raw numbers and how to optimize their spending. They will factor in everything to an end result, so they are pretty easy to be catered to, just give them a good value.

    But, most people don't know the chances, can't rationally internalize it and don't care. Getting the most "chances" to roll and feel individual rolls to be rewarded by what they've got is the important. They are not inherently wrong, they are just looking it differently, from an entertainment standpoint. And from that perspective, stating how 3x chances for 10 key being objectively better than the current is a hollow argument, because it is not based on what they want, but to persuade them to something they would not prefer. It's not just that it's against your interest as they will be the people who will accept "worse" deals by like buying VIP when it's not on-sale, but ignoring what they like in it for those that are already persuaded to buy it is just lost sales.

    Alternates to keys:
    Sounds great. I'm not sure if this question is framed properly, as I can't see people arguing for less, but glad that the idea got introduced and as pointed out before me, I would like the tradebars to take that currency role. Mostly, because that will make a tradebar store rework, that I'd support, but that's an other topic. The other reason is because tradebars are already an indirect VIP currency.

    Current Benefits: Probably everything with different priorities, but I wouldn't single out anything as for me, VIP is more of a bundle of things to get. I actually get the potions and sell it for gold for my workshop, sometimes on multiple character.

    Auction House:
    I agree, but this also devalues the VIP by a lot and I think it's not really in the topic of VIP. I would suggest to have a fee for taking things down before the timer based on the time left, so people would not just post everything for 5 days and take down after like 10 minutes to repost it for 5 more days. Yes, maybe even VIP members should be paying that cost or a much lowered cost, but I think there is no problem by making the initial posting cost no AD, but the fact that it can be retracted and reposted without a cost just to undercut others. I kind of hate the initial posting cost, because before VIP, if I got a really good drop, I'd find myself unable to sell it because I'd lack the posting fee to do so, so I had to hold on a thing before I got the money to post it. Maybe if the posting fee would be much lower, but that's more of a thing with the AH. On the topic, I want VIP to have no posting fee, because I want to not have posting fee.

    New Benefits: So I guess the following benefits are the example benefits and the already mentioned things.

    Higher AD caps: I can't state anything factual without knowing the data and systemwide I can see it being good/bad depending on that, but if there's no solid reason for it, then avoid doing so. Giving VIP players stuff instead of AD naturally gets it's price where it should be, while just giving AD makes a whole lot of mess that should be precalculated and probably updated over-time.

    Increased health gain from VIP: I think as a concept, reworking VIP to be a percentage of HP just makes more sense so it does not get marginalised later. The how much more HP is probably depends on how prevalent VIP should be in endgame content.

    Change loadout away from campfire: Uhm, that looks like a huge wrench in the design of campfires and loadouts and probably exploitable as well (by trying to change role during bossfights like Nostura for the heal phase at the end). If this gets sufficiently dealt with, it sounds great.

    What I would like to see as a "new" benefit:

    Having "official" means to hotkey VIP bonuses, like summon vendor/bank.

    if you take down an item to relist that you've just put up, to undercut as you say, that means YOU"VE been undercut and you are responding to that. if you can't respond to that then your thing will never sell. it's part of a free market. there is nothing wrong with undercutting. you are taking away free will by not letting the market adjust as it needs to. there are a lot of strategies you can employ. you can wait it out (which I normally do) you can engage in an aggressive battle. you can match prices. the underlying problem here isn't the ah. it's the economy around it. there aren't enough ways to make ad in game for lower level players with the many changes that have happened. farmable things aren't something you can monetize anymore. Gold has no value. mc supplies has no value. the daily keys has no value. there are few items that drop in dungeons and most of it isn' tthings that people actually need in the game. the only gear that is selling was aimed at the ultra elite this time around. the hunts (I can't speak for mod 18) that used to have income generating things, (lures that had good gear drops like chult, maps from somi) all were made bound to account more or less. modern lockboxes no longer have good drops 99 percent of the time.

    this is all coupled with people spending less because they're down about the state of the game. the state of their toon, the lack of things to do and keep them engaged..

    the result of this is less money for the auction house making things slower to sell. so people get upset when they're undercut. when really supply and demand are unequal.
    There is a lot of factually wrong in your statement, as:
    -There was always a way for new players to get more AD, Dread Ring lairs.
    -There are a ton of things that can be sold, like the wyvern artifacts, black ice wedge and refinement stones.
    -Gold has more value than ever as far as I remember, because you can use it in professions to sell things for AD (which goes back to the last point).
    -Undercutting is not just placing at a lower price, but to place it lower because other people have lowered their price for the short-term gain for a quick sell.

    The "free" market is not equals to "free to do whatever regardless of any consequence" market. Having rules stabilizing the market is not a loss free will, it is to encourage responsibility and prevent the individual to hurt the overall population. You can't just make money by whatever means you can achieve, you are accountable for how you do it. Or at least, in Europe they hold you accountable for the damages you have caused.

    Also, that having certain, wealthy players to be able to undercut while others are feed away from it, is pretty against the free choice of those that cannot afford to choose it. Because this is a VIP only benefit.

    But, I think that players don't understand the problem with undercutting: Undercutting is not based on how much the item worths, it based on the individuals impatience to sell it. It drives down the price by not how it should be, but by people shortsidedly deciding to sell it regardless how much it costs. You personally complained that there's nothing worth to be farmed, but guess what, if people compulsively give under the price of each other, they will drag down the prices. It has really nothing to do with free markets, as the value is not based on how much people want to buy it, but the sellers pushing down prices for reasons that actually drags down the whole market.

    Because in this game, you are a seller AND a buyer.

    Now, do I think that undercutting is really that bad... well, not really. It's pitiful to see and while it do break the price for rarely occuring items, with consumables the fluctuation is big enough to wash out these anomalies. For the AH itself, it generates a lot of transactions that are meaningless as they will be deleted in minutes, which I remind myself every time when the AH throws back my offer with an error.

    I think the takedown fee should be like 0,75% so it's don't walls of people. Like yeah, you can choose to take down your Enchanting stone, Rank 5 just to undercut someone after you by a single AD, but if everyone are expected to spend 23 AD for doing so, probably less people would just mindlessly do it and probably consider if it's worth it.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,243 Arc User


    That is not the result in NW. The result is in NW is, for the most part, like this:

    Player 1 is a big time crafter. Crafts 1000's of items, has billions of AD (not an exaggeration).
    Player 2 is a small time crafter, wants to craft 1 or 2 items.

    Player 2 posts an item, tries to undercut player 1, who is listing basically everything. Player 1 retaliates. The prices drop for a while, up to a point where it is no longer profitable to sell items and player 2 is selling at a loss (this is a reality). At this point, player 1 buys up player 2's item, relists both items for much higher and sells both for profit. Player 2 makes a loss, cannot continue crafting and quits crafting because of this. The real buyers (not the 2 fighting the AH war), then pay the inflated place of the monopoly (player 1).

    That is the reality for the NW AH.

    Removing no posting fee does not solve that situation. Player 1 can afford the posting fee for the sake of getting rid of Player 2. Player 2 cannot afford the posting fee to undercut the second time.

    I saw that was done before VIP and I knew a person who were doing that as Player 1.
    It creates a healthier economy, as more players will move towards manual trade rather than automated trade. Manual trade is slower to do, a complete pain if you are trying to trade items in bulk and difficult to monopolize.
  • hitchslappedhitchslapped Member Posts: 280 Arc User
    meanwhile, in reality, sharp.

    'little guys' can't always afford the posting fee.
    the trade channel is basically only used for high value stuff... but there's high value stuff that MOVES, and high value stuff that doesn't move. trade being an option is not a defence of posting fees. posting fees still require non AH cartel types to have surplus ad to pay the fee, and to have enough of that surplus to *keep reposting items that don't sell first time round, until it eventually sells*. players still working up cannot really afford to be doing this much, for higher value items, quite possibly not at all.

    ah fees favour the cartels more than the absence of AH fees would.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,330 Arc User

    So, now that I've got more time to think about the questions:

    T

    Current Benefits: Probably everything with different priorities, but I wouldn't single out anything as for me, VIP is more of a bundle of things to get. I actually get the potions and sell it for gold for my workshop, sometimes on multiple character.

    Auction House:
    I agree, but this also devalues the VIP by a lot and I think it's not really in the topic of VIP. I would suggest to have a fee for taking things down before the timer based on the time left, so people would not just post everything for 5 days and take down after like 10 minutes to repost it for 5 more days. Yes, maybe even VIP members should be paying that cost or a much lowered cost, but I think there is no problem by making the initial posting cost no AD, but the fact that it can be retracted and reposted without a cost just to undercut others. I kind of hate the initial posting cost, because before VIP, if I got a really good drop, I'd find myself unable to sell it because I'd lack the posting fee to do so, so I had to hold on a thing before I got the money to post it. Maybe if the posting fee would be much lower, but that's more of a thing with the AH. On the topic, I want VIP to have no posting fee, because I want to not have posting fee.

    New Benefits: So I guess the following benefits are the example benefits and the already mentioned things.

    Higher AD caps: I can't state anything factual without knowing the data and systemwide I can see it being good/bad depending on that, but if there's no solid reason for it, then avoid doing so. Giving VIP players stuff instead of AD naturally gets it's price where it should be, while just giving AD makes a whole lot of mess that should be precalculated and probably updated over-time.

    Increased health gain from VIP: I think as a concept, reworking VIP to be a percentage of HP just makes more sense so it does not get marginalised later. The how much more HP is probably depends on how prevalent VIP should be in endgame content.

    Change loadout away from campfire: Uhm, that looks like a huge wrench in the design of campfires and loadouts and probably exploitable as well (by trying to change role during bossfights like Nostura for the heal phase at the end). If this gets sufficiently dealt with, it sounds great.

    What I would like to see as a "new" benefit:

    Having "official" means to hotkey VIP bonuses, like summon vendor/bank.

    if you take down an item to relist that you've just put up, to undercut as you say, that means YOU"VE been undercut and you are responding to that. if you can't respond to that then your thing will never sell. it's part of a free market. there is nothing wrong with undercutting. you are taking away free will by not letting the market adjust as it needs to. there are a lot of strategies you can employ. you can wait it out (which I normally do) you can engage in an aggressive battle. you can match prices. the underlying problem here isn't the ah. it's the economy around it. there aren't enough ways to make ad in game for lower level players with the many changes that have happened. farmable things aren't something you can monetize anymore. Gold has no value. mc supplies has no value. the daily keys has no value. there are few items that drop in dungeons and most of it isn' tthings that people actually need in the game. the only gear that is selling was aimed at the ultra elite this time around. the hunts (I can't speak for mod 18) that used to have income generating things, (lures that had good gear drops like chult, maps from somi) all were made bound to account more or less. modern lockboxes no longer have good drops 99 percent of the time.

    this is all coupled with people spending less because they're down about the state of the game. the state of their toon, the lack of things to do and keep them engaged..

    the result of this is less money for the auction house making things slower to sell. so people get upset when they're undercut. when really supply and demand are unequal.
    There is a lot of factually wrong in your statement, as:
    -There was always a way for new players to get more AD, Dread Ring lairs.
    -There are a ton of things that can be sold, like the wyvern artifacts, black ice wedge and refinement stones.
    -Gold has more value than ever as far as I remember, because you can use it in professions to sell things for AD (which goes back to the last point).
    -Undercutting is not just placing at a lower price, but to place it lower because other people have lowered their price for the short-term gain for a quick sell.

    The "free" market is not equals to "free to do whatever regardless of any consequence" market. Having rules stabilizing the market is not a loss free will, it is to encourage responsibility and prevent the individual to hurt the overall population. You can't just make money by whatever means you can achieve, you are accountable for how you do it. Or at least, in Europe they hold you accountable for the damages you have caused.

    Also, that having certain, wealthy players to be able to undercut while others are feed away from it, is pretty against the free choice of those that cannot afford to choose it. Because this is a VIP only benefit.

    But, I think that players don't understand the problem with undercutting: Undercutting is not based on how much the item worths, it based on the individuals impatience to sell it. It drives down the price by not how it should be, but by people shortsidedly deciding to sell it regardless how much it costs. You personally complained that there's nothing worth to be farmed, but guess what, if people compulsively give under the price of each other, they will drag down the prices. It has really nothing to do with free markets, as the value is not based on how much people want to buy it, but the sellers pushing down prices for reasons that actually drags down the whole market.

    Because in this game, you are a seller AND a buyer.

    Now, do I think that undercutting is really that bad... well, not really. It's pitiful to see and while it do break the price for rarely occuring items, with consumables the fluctuation is big enough to wash out these anomalies. For the AH itself, it generates a lot of transactions that are meaningless as they will be deleted in minutes, which I remind myself every time when the AH throws back my offer with an error.

    I think the takedown fee should be like 0,75% so it's don't walls of people. Like yeah, you can choose to take down your Enchanting stone, Rank 5 just to undercut someone after you by a single AD, but if everyone are expected to spend 23 AD for doing so, probably less people would just mindlessly do it and probably consider if it's worth it.
    the reason things have less value is because of supply and demand. there is a huge supply and a very low demand. the things you mention that people can farm and sell are worth pennies and no one wants them. gold has value for mc but no one is bothering wiht crafting at all. gold is not worth very much. (that would change if they quickly brought mc back and made things that were worth crafting. and it would have that trickle down effect. the mc need supplies but doesn't want to do it themselves. they pay poorer people to give them their base supplies. then those poorer people have the money to buy other things they need to build their toon. the gold they farm has a market suddenly, the guild marks they farm have a good value suddenly. the supplies they farm from maps have a good value suddenly) but right now there is none of that.

    if people drive the price down because they want their money now. Fine. wait it out. it will sell and then you are in a position to take advantage. if people pile on that means the items are not selling fast enough to justify the demand. or people simply don't have the ad to buy your item. im all for getting rid of the upfront fee just straight up, for everyone.

    I do believe in a free market. you are free to play the market as you wish. I do well because I wait for things to settle out. if there is a price war I let it ride and make the better ad later. there is no omg have to cash out now NEED. you can wait it out. I think price wars are fine. it gives people something to do and get excited about. prices rise and prices fall.


  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,330 Arc User


    That is not the result in NW. The result is in NW is, for the most part, like this:

    Player 1 is a big time crafter. Crafts 1000's of items, has billions of AD (not an exaggeration).
    Player 2 is a small time crafter, wants to craft 1 or 2 items.

    Player 2 posts an item, tries to undercut player 1, who is listing basically everything. Player 1 retaliates. The prices drop for a while, up to a point where it is no longer profitable to sell items and player 2 is selling at a loss (this is a reality). At this point, player 1 buys up player 2's item, relists both items for much higher and sells both for profit. Player 2 makes a loss, cannot continue crafting and quits crafting because of this. The real buyers (not the 2 fighting the AH war), then pay the inflated place of the monopoly (player 1).

    That is the reality for the NW AH.

    Removing no posting fee does not solve that situation. Player 1 can afford the posting fee for the sake of getting rid of Player 2. Player 2 cannot afford the posting fee to undercut the second time.

    I saw that was done before VIP and I knew a person who were doing that as Player 1.
    It creates a healthier economy, as more players will move towards manual trade rather than automated trade. Manual trade is slower to do, a complete pain if you are trying to trade items in bulk and difficult to monopolize.
    if people are forced to do manual trades en mass, a good majority will move on and find something better to do. the scammers will be out in force making people sad. the ah takes away that part of the equation and ensures at least that it's caveat lector and emptor as your feels instead of getting flat out conned. people have better things to do with their days then sitting around hawking goods. forcing people to do that is bad. very bad.


  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,330 Arc User
    edited January 24

    Personally, I don't see undercut is an issue at all. This makes the buyer happy. If I put on buyer's head, I say please do more undercut.

    Personally, as a seller, I don't do undercut because I consider it is waste of my time and waste of potential value. I do upper cut and the no posting fee allows me to do uppercut. This part will not make buyer happy though.

    I do undercut by a penny. but I also upper cut. it depends on the item and what I think the actual value is. if I know and like the person above me I just match it flat out (If I don't feel like just pricing higher). at the end of the day if everyone is the same price everyone will sell. the buyers will just pick the name htey like best. but by gum. i want the freedom to choose. it's one of the things that was always awesome about this game. the economy is the one of the big things that has kept me around. it's fun and its something that is much harder to do in real life. but risk free here in terms of Rl risk. so you get the thrill without the chance of literally ending up in the gutter for real. lol


    i also really enjoy messing with the heavy duty muscle flexor types. I let it get low enough where I am uncomfortable with the price but it won't kill me if it sells there. let them undercut me again then instead of taking the bait and going under them I leave them with their pants down and go back to my original price or higher depending. it's fun. especially when they accidently sell. they tend to leave me alone after a few rounds of that.


  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,243 Arc User
    edited January 24


    That is not the result in NW. The result is in NW is, for the most part, like this:

    Player 1 is a big time crafter. Crafts 1000's of items, has billions of AD (not an exaggeration).
    Player 2 is a small time crafter, wants to craft 1 or 2 items.

    Player 2 posts an item, tries to undercut player 1, who is listing basically everything. Player 1 retaliates. The prices drop for a while, up to a point where it is no longer profitable to sell items and player 2 is selling at a loss (this is a reality). At this point, player 1 buys up player 2's item, relists both items for much higher and sells both for profit. Player 2 makes a loss, cannot continue crafting and quits crafting because of this. The real buyers (not the 2 fighting the AH war), then pay the inflated place of the monopoly (player 1).

    That is the reality for the NW AH.

    Removing no posting fee does not solve that situation. Player 1 can afford the posting fee for the sake of getting rid of Player 2. Player 2 cannot afford the posting fee to undercut the second time.

    I saw that was done before VIP and I knew a person who were doing that as Player 1.
    It creates a healthier economy, as more players will move towards manual trade rather than automated trade. Manual trade is slower to do, a complete pain if you are trying to trade items in bulk and difficult to monopolize.
    if people are forced to do manual trades en mass, a good majority will move on and find something better to do. the scammers will be out in force making people sad. the ah takes away that part of the equation and ensures at least that it's caveat lector and emptor as your feels instead of getting flat out conned. people have better things to do with their days then sitting around hawking goods. forcing people to do that is bad. very bad.
    I very much doubt many players would quit because they have to do manual trade. I can give examples of other games where the only way to trade is manual trade, which are doing very well, but that is besides the point, because I cannot show how the switch from automatic to manual would effect a game.

    Its a case of I think vs you think and neither of us can prove what will happen, so there is no point to argue about it.
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 352 Arc User
    edited January 24



    if you take down an item to relist that you've just put up, to undercut as you say, that means YOU"VE been undercut and you are responding to that. if you can't respond to that then your thing will never sell. it's part of a free market. there is nothing wrong with undercutting. you are taking away free will by not letting the market adjust as it needs to. there are a lot of strategies you can employ. you can wait it out (which I normally do) you can engage in an aggressive battle. you can match prices. the underlying problem here isn't the ah. it's the economy around it. there aren't enough ways to make ad in game for lower level players with the many changes that have happened. farmable things aren't something you can monetize anymore. Gold has no value. mc supplies has no value. the daily keys has no value. there are few items that drop in dungeons and most of it isn' tthings that people actually need in the game. the only gear that is selling was aimed at the ultra elite this time around. the hunts (I can't speak for mod 18) that used to have income generating things, (lures that had good gear drops like chult, maps from somi) all were made bound to account more or less. modern lockboxes no longer have good drops 99 percent of the time.

    this is all coupled with people spending less because they're down about the state of the game. the state of their toon, the lack of things to do and keep them engaged..

    the result of this is less money for the auction house making things slower to sell. so people get upset when they're undercut. when really supply and demand are unequal.

    There is a lot of factually wrong in your statement, as:
    -There was always a way for new players to get more AD, Dread Ring lairs.
    -There are a ton of things that can be sold, like the wyvern artifacts, black ice wedge and refinement stones.
    -Gold has more value than ever as far as I remember, because you can use it in professions to sell things for AD (which goes back to the last point).
    -Undercutting is not just placing at a lower price, but to place it lower because other people have lowered their price for the short-term gain for a quick sell.

    The "free" market is not equals to "free to do whatever regardless of any consequence" market. Having rules stabilizing the market is not a loss free will, it is to encourage responsibility and prevent the individual to hurt the overall population. You can't just make money by whatever means you can achieve, you are accountable for how you do it. Or at least, in Europe they hold you accountable for the damages you have caused.

    Also, that having certain, wealthy players to be able to undercut while others are feed away from it, is pretty against the free choice of those that cannot afford to choose it. Because this is a VIP only benefit.

    But, I think that players don't understand the problem with undercutting: Undercutting is not based on how much the item worths, it based on the individuals impatience to sell it. It drives down the price by not how it should be, but by people shortsidedly deciding to sell it regardless how much it costs. You personally complained that there's nothing worth to be farmed, but guess what, if people compulsively give under the price of each other, they will drag down the prices. It has really nothing to do with free markets, as the value is not based on how much people want to buy it, but the sellers pushing down prices for reasons that actually drags down the whole market.

    Because in this game, you are a seller AND a buyer.

    Now, do I think that undercutting is really that bad... well, not really. It's pitiful to see and while it do break the price for rarely occuring items, with consumables the fluctuation is big enough to wash out these anomalies. For the AH itself, it generates a lot of transactions that are meaningless as they will be deleted in minutes, which I remind myself every time when the AH throws back my offer with an error.

    I think the takedown fee should be like 0,75% so it's don't walls of people. Like yeah, you can choose to take down your Enchanting stone, Rank 5 just to undercut someone after you by a single AD, but if everyone are expected to spend 23 AD for doing so, probably less people would just mindlessly do it and probably consider if it's worth it.
    the reason things have less value is because of supply and demand. there is a huge supply and a very low demand. the things you mention that people can farm and sell are worth pennies and no one wants them. gold has value for mc but no one is bothering wiht crafting at all. gold is not worth very much. (that would change if they quickly brought mc back and made things that were worth crafting. and it would have that trickle down effect. the mc need supplies but doesn't want to do it themselves. they pay poorer people to give them their base supplies. then those poorer people have the money to buy other things they need to build their toon. the gold they farm has a market suddenly, the guild marks they farm have a good value suddenly. the supplies they farm from maps have a good value suddenly) but right now there is none of that.

    if people drive the price down because they want their money now. Fine. wait it out. it will sell and then you are in a position to take advantage. if people pile on that means the items are not selling fast enough to justify the demand. or people simply don't have the ad to buy your item. im all for getting rid of the upfront fee just straight up, for everyone.

    I do believe in a free market. you are free to play the market as you wish. I do well because I wait for things to settle out. if there is a price war I let it ride and make the better ad later. there is no omg have to cash out now NEED. you can wait it out. I think price wars are fine. it gives people something to do and get excited about. prices rise and prices fall.
    Uhm, I don't have to believe in free markets as I learn economic analysis. I don't even think that people should "believe" in free market, because it's just a scientific model of systems based on individual behavior. You can like learn it, check the advantages and disadvantages and decide if you want to use that model. But, it's a theoretical model, you have to adjust it into reality.

    However, the basic economic axiom of the free market is that the individual is rational, works in self-interest. and within the set rules of the model, thinking within the box.

    But, those who undercut to get the AD ASAP most of the time are not rational, sometimes does not even do in their rational self interest, but harm their profit due to impatience.

    Now, the traditionally known "supply and demand" curve has no time factor, people are either sellers OR buyers and the supply and those who have it are predetermined. Because the model is older than the MMO economy, so of course it's just can't fit into it.

    MMO's actually need a deeper and complex approach, which I'd like to do, but... because Cryptic likes to stay in business they don't just release sensitive business data and underlying metrics of millions of players, so I cannot provide more than basic information about this.

    But, the point is, the traditional free market model is not really fitting into this game, or just into the XXI. century, in general as less goods provided being physical things or just things in general, with services getting more and more prevalent.
This discussion has been closed.