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"The game is just not fun anymore"

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  • thekfdcase#5416 thekfdcase Member Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    > @honghua#7152 said:
    > > @zyronax said:
    > > (Quote)
    > > Did it ever occur to you, in your self-righteous sense of entitlement, that in order to play "the damn game at max lvl," you might have to put in the time, effort, and resources that others did? Cause ya know, your tirade has more than just a whiff of sour grapes and envy. Any way, you can keep this version of the game, and should you ever actually put in the time and effort to reach end-game status remember this moment (with the all-but-inevitable change of attitude and experience that will bring). lol
    > >
    > > Turn off the lights when the doors close for the final time.
    > >
    > > P.S. Also, that spiel doesn't at all come across as a paid-for-drive-by "positive review, yay!" hit piece. B)
    >
    > I do understand that old vets lost a ton of stuff they have enjoyed for so long, i was angry after they have changed my owlbear, however this game needed a complete rework and still needs a ton of changes to make it even more accessible than it is now.
    > Tell me what you want how you liked it before, the fact is this game was extremely hostile to anyone who just started to play it. Majority of people who ever tried to play it and i guarantee you there was a ton of them simply left the game for a reason, which the biggest one was how terribly pay2win it was back in days. Tell me it isnt, then i will give you a link to thread where people were stating they have spend thousands of dollar in money to play blade master and why it is not being buffed.
    > It was not accessible by any means, and without new flow of players it would not live for long. Its not the case of entitlement but of the competition on mmorpg market. You cant have a game which is gating the entire end game behind the thousands of dollar paywall and expect it to live for long.
    >
    > This game needs account wide companions and mounts and should work and fight with GIANT PAY2WIN ticket that is attached to this game unfortunately.
    >
    >

    The fact that you even consider NW in the same weight-class as other, bigger, well-established MMOs, and claim there is a giant paywall preventing players from playing content raises questions to the credibility of your claims.

    I'll tell you what I like about pre-Mod 16: Everything that Mod 16+ removed/destroyed.

    As for new players, it's been documented in the industry, that even when devs specifically cater to newbies, up to 70% of them leave within 3-4 weeks. *Some* new blood may be needed, but it's the veterans that are the anchors of the game's community, and it's the 'whales' (1% or less of the player population according to industry research) that keep f2p games afloat. It's not the newcomers.

    The changes you praise as being life-saving for NW, have seen a second mass exodus on a scale not seen since the Mod 6 debacle. Player population took a permanent dive back then which it has never recovered from. History is repeating itself, and this time Cryptic has far fewer staff and presumably financial resources focused on NW. (Hello MTG!)

    Fun fact: Zen store purchased mounts are unlocked account-wide (except for the first-time sale of legendary mounts).

    I agree that having companions unlocked account-wide would be helpful. (That goes for all in-game items.)
    Post edited by thekfdcase#5416 on
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    there was one good thing in the reddit but honestly the ama left me feeling dire about the direction of the game again.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,184 Arc User


    The fact that you even consider NWN in the same weight-class as other, bigger, well-established MMOs, and claim there is a giant paywall preventing players from playing content raises questions to the credibility of your claims.

    I just want to point out this is not NWN (Neverwinter Night). This is NW (Neverwinter).
    NWN is a totally different game from a different Developer.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,458 Arc User
    edited January 2020

    there was one good thing in the reddit but honestly the ama left me feeling dire about the direction of the game again.

    I just looked through it, and it seemed like a pointless exercise. Most of the responses amounted to "we can't say anything at this time." I guess all the openness that Chris talked about didn't last long.
    Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X
    Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
    Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
    Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
    The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
    My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 709 Arc User
    hustin1 said:

    there was one good thing in the reddit but honestly the ama left me feeling dire about the direction of the game again.

    I just looked through it, and it seemed like a pointless exercise. Most of the responses amounted to "we can't say anything at this time."
    I am not so sure, to some extent it read like "We were never allowed to talk about things in such a great detail and now it feels weird if we do so".
    I try to see it more in the context of answers we got until now, like, I mean, we all know them. It's WAI, we think it's in a good place, whatever.
    There is, to me, a different approach in communication here that also needs some time to evolve.
    I mean, to say that we would like to see some different path now, some different approaches to how this game is handled, how we are handled to be honest, would be an understatement. But, compared to businesses I know (they may be in a different field, but it is similar on topics like communication, transparency, customer service and the likes) changes in this areas are not easy.
    Also, it was a systems AMA. A lot of stuff people want to talk about is not exactly system-related.

    In general, since I am pretty sure we shouldn't hope for big changes until perhaps M21, we are just in for a wait if we want to see if there really is anything good in for us. I just wanted to note that changes on communication and customer approach do not happen overnight and there for sure are routines in the team they have to work on long before we can acknowledge the differences.

    In either case, in my opinion it boils down to: can one stomach the wait to see IF they are really trying to change the already very set course or not.
    - bye bye -
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,184 Arc User
    edited January 2020


    In either case, in my opinion it boils down to: can one stomach the wait to see IF they are really trying to change the already very set course or not.

    Why bother to wait?
    If you don't like (or even hate) what it is now and in a short period of time ahead, take a break and check this out later.
    if you are comfortable with what you have now, play until you don't.
    There is nothing needs to be "stomach". It is a game. Not a career, a job, a marriage, ...

    Personally, if it is not here, it is not here until it is here. Nobody knows about the future.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 709 Arc User


    In either case, in my opinion it boils down to: can one stomach the wait to see IF they are really trying to change the already very set course or not.

    Why bother to wait?
    If you don't like (or even hate) what it is now and in a short period of time ahead, take a break and check this out later.
    if you are comfortable with what you have now, play until you don't.
    There is nothing needs to be "stomach". It is a game. Not a career, a job, a marriage, ...

    Personally, if it is not here, it is not here until it is here. Nobody knows about the future.
    That is "waiting".
    I am playing something else, but for me personally, if I come back to a game I previously played, I have "waited" for it. It's just how I formulated it.
    I agree with you. This is actually what I meant to some extent - that it won't happen overnight, but it might happen in the future, and that the outlook does not have to be negative in general.
    If I already thought the outlook to be that negative, I wouldn't "bother" to wait, I would have moved on.
    - bye bye -
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,083 Arc User



    You can see this in the wait time for the backlog in the ZAX.
    Before Mod 16 it ran at 1 Mio AD / day, now it is more around 0.5 Mio AD / day

    This assumes that people only buy zen to convert to AD, which is patently not true.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • rickcase276rickcase276 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,404 Arc User
    Yes, I have never bought zen to just exchange for AD. I always buy zen to use for VIP, and that is all I buy zen for.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,083 Arc User
    I charge if there is something I need/want. By the time I'm done, my remaining zen is so low that the game won't let me put it into the exchange.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • rickcase276rickcase276 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,404 Arc User
    Same here, currently I have 7 zen.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,083 Arc User
    I think I have 10.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • autumnwitchautumnwitch Member Posts: 1,133 Arc User
    hustin1 said:

    there was one good thing in the reddit but honestly the ama left me feeling dire about the direction of the game again.

    I just looked through it, and it seemed like a pointless exercise. Most of the responses amounted to "we can't say anything at this time." I guess all the openness that Chris talked about didn't last long.
    This bothers me because it could mean a few different things.

    Higher up powers are micro-managing Chris prohibiting from doing more.

    Chris's real reason for being here is to shut down NW. I believe one of his last (if not very last) jobs was shutting down another MMO . (This seems unlikely but it is a possibility)

    Everyone at Cryptic are literally flying by the seat of their pants now day to day. Meaning the ship is sailing but no one knows where.

    None of the above options bode well for us.

    I personally think NW will stay active until Magic comes out and it will either shut down or go into a maintenance mode. I really don't think Cryptic wants NW and Magic to coexist/compete.

    Just my 2 pence.

    Boudica's Sisters - A Guild For Introverts
  • motu999#9953 motu999 Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    greywynd said:



    You can see this in the wait time for the backlog in the ZAX.
    Before Mod 16 it ran at 1 Mio AD / day, now it is more around 0.5 Mio AD / day

    This assumes that people only buy zen to convert to AD, which is patently not true.
    OK, lets look at the money flow in detail.
    The only real money income for Cryptic, directly from the game (not from sources outside the game) is through ZEN sales.
    They sell ZEN for real money. As far as I am aware, they do not sell anything else directly to the players.

    #1 Some players want ZEN and offer AD (no income for Cryptic)
    #2 Some players spend the ZEN they bought for real money directly in the ZEN store
    #3 Some players use the ZEN they bought from real money, to get AD.

    The two sources of income (actually, one, but used by the buyers of ZEN in different ways) are paths #2 and #3.
    #1 does not create any income, but it does not reduce the income either. It merely keeps path #3 going.

    I guess we agree, that the players in path #2, e.g. that spend their BOUGHT ZEN directly in the ZEN store, don't show up in the ZAX. Only path #3 shows up in the ZAX (of course also #1, which is always in perfect balance with #3).

    So you are correct: Looking at the ZAX does not tell us how much money Cryptic earns in total, e.g. via paths #2 AND #3.
    But it gives us a very good estimate (delayed by the wait time) how much money they earn via path #3.

    The flow through the ZAX (path #3) represents a fraction of the total real money flow.
    Assuming the percentages between the two paths (#2 and #3) have remained constant from Mod15-17,
    the percentage by which the flow in one path declined (the path we can see - #3) should be a FAIR ESTIMATE for the decline in the total flow of income.

    I agree, that this is an estimate.
    A rough one.
    The real figures could be a decline between 30% to 50% (again an estimate).

    But it is rather obvious, that there must have been a dramatic decline in income.
    Otherwise the company would not have seen the need to replace the top management!
    The new top management (Chris) has - very obviously - as his topmost priority, to win back the trust of the players.
    Cryptic is willing to go through some drastic changes, in its openness of communication with the players.
    Changes that were unheard of and unthinkable under the old management.

  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 709 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    > @motu999#9953 said:
    > But it is rather obvious, that there must have been a dramatic decline in income.
    > Otherwise the company would not have seen the need to replace the top management!
    > The new top management (Chris) has - very obviously - as his topmost priority, to win back the trust of the players.
    > Cryptic is willing to go through some drastic changes, in its openness of communication with the players.
    > Changes that were unheard of and unthinkable under the old management.



    Yeah. Also, M16 was far too huge and resource-cosuming to be a starting attempt to drive NW to the ground to get the playerbase ready for MTG.
    I believe that they are trying to get NW going to some extent. They could've just pulled the plug if they wanted to, or let NW roll without M15-17 until MTG launch. Like M18 content-adding, HE and a campaign, a normal dung each mod... But they didn't.
    We will see.
    - bye bye -
  • motu999#9953 motu999 Member Posts: 254 Arc User


    I believe that they are trying to get NW going to some extent. They could've just pulled the plug if they wanted to ...

    We will see.

    Exactly my impression as well.
    It does not make sense to hire a new manager, just to pull the plug.
    It does not make sense to go through the - tremendously difficult - process of changing the company culture (how they communicate externally and internally), just to pull the plug right after or during this monumental effort.

    I really see the developments in the past month as very positive.
    Of course, one will have to see if Chris and the team will be successful.
    But from what I have seen so far, I am convinced, there is a genuine willingness to keep this game running and to improve it.
  • callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,710 Arc User


    I believe that they are trying to get NW going to some extent. They could've just pulled the plug if they wanted to ...

    We will see.

    Exactly my impression as well.
    It does not make sense to hire a new manager, just to pull the plug.
    It does not make sense to go through the - tremendously difficult - process of changing the company culture (how they communicate externally and internally), just to pull the plug right after or during this monumental effort.

    I really see the developments in the past month as very positive.
    Of course, one will have to see if Chris and the team will be successful.
    But from what I have seen so far, I am convinced, there is a genuine willingness to keep this game running and to improve it.
    Agree, mostly.

    No business owner invests money in a product or company they are going to scrap. That's just stupid.

    You only invest money in a business if you are going to try and increase profits or sell it to someone else.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,184 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    They could have just started to slow down and slide to maintenance mode or even just operation mode (as just keep the server running). They don't need to hire a new Producer to do that. Why spend extra money for the sake of terminating something? They don't need to give us "severance pay" when they "lay us off".

    Just because they are making a new game, it does not mean they have to kill the current game(s). The current game(s) are still providing funding to the company. The "success" of the new game is still questionable.

    New game and older game(s) can co-exist as long as they can generate profit.

    One producer for one game of Cryptic cannot change company culture. It may change the culture of one team but not the company. I don't see Chris oversee STO and other non-NW projects. For me, all these communication "improvement" are just PR. I have not felt there is a major change beyond "okay, this could make somebody feel better". On the other hand, they did spend some effort/resource/time to do the "PR".
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,489 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    greywynd said:



    You can see this in the wait time for the backlog in the ZAX.
    Before Mod 16 it ran at 1 Mio AD / day, now it is more around 0.5 Mio AD / day

    This assumes that people only buy zen to convert to AD, which is patently not true.
    No, this assumes there is a constant percentage of the purchased Zen being spent on the ZAX.

    And that is not an unreasonable assumption.
  • motu999#9953 motu999 Member Posts: 254 Arc User

    greywynd said:



    You can see this in the wait time for the backlog in the ZAX.
    Before Mod 16 it ran at 1 Mio AD / day, now it is more around 0.5 Mio AD / day

    This assumes that people only buy zen to convert to AD, which is patently not true.
    No, this assumes there is a constant percentage of the purchased Zen being spent on the ZAX.

    And that is not an unreasonable assumption.
    Thanks, two sentences to convey the message, where it took me ~20 :-)
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    I spent quite some money on this game over the years, but now there is nothing I can spend my money on. The only thing left is slowly upgrading all my enchants to rank 15 which is as exciting as watching grass grow.

    I'm TOMM ready and did it once for the sake of completeness, but am not interested in a trial where you basically hit a dummy and perform some routines on command. It's like being a dog under training: sit now or die, jump now or die, hit the dummy,... There's no room for making your own strategy and adapt it to the team you have, and all boss fights look the same: forced strategy or die. This is a D&D-based game. In D&D there's no fixed strategy, there are obstacles to overcome and you're free to decide how to approach them. That's what I liked in the original dungeons.

    Same thing for my favourite class, the Ranger. All rangers I see are clones. No room for different playstiles as only one single build is functional enough and even there you have to follow a specific routine of powers.

    I used to spend money on VIP but I don't do that anymore. The only thing I miss are the free map teleports, but all the rest is pretty useless.

    I spent quite some time on preview in the last weeks and concluded that Mod19 will be short for me. One single dungeon (that I already ran on preview) with no interesting rewards. Only a few of nice items (mostly for their appearance) that I already collected on preview, so I expect to have them by the time I complete the boons in the campaign. And then only grinding on enchants, waiting for MOD19.

    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,083 Arc User


    OK, lets look at the money flow in detail.

    Not possible without access to Cryptic's account records.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,083 Arc User



    No, this assumes there is a constant percentage of the purchased Zen being spent on the ZAX.

    And that is not an unreasonable assumption.

    Never assume. Assumptions are not facts.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • thekfdcase#5416 thekfdcase Member Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    > @greywynd said:
    > (Quote)
    > Never assume. Assumptions are not facts.

    That door swings both ways. You in turn can't assume there hasn't been a constant conversion of Zen into AD.

    What we *can* confirm is that the backlog now diminishes at half the rate that it did previously. There are several possible causes for this, and some of those are interconnected. Denying that a year filled with hugely unpopular changes has impacted the game, and played its part in this comes across as merely trolling or frankly delusional - possibly a mixture of both.

    Pick your poison.
  • jimmypdtjimmypdt Member Posts: 121 Arc User

    > @greywynd said:

    > (Quote)

    > Never assume. Assumptions are not facts.



    That door swings both ways. You in turn can't assume there hasn't been a constant conversion of Zen into AD.



    What we *can* confirm is that the backlog now diminishes at half the rate that it did previously. There are several possible causes for this, and some of those are interconnected. Denying that a year filled with hugely unpopular changes has impacted the game, and played its part in this comes across as merely trolling or frankly delusional - possibly a mixture of both.



    Pick your poison.

    I pick rat poison. Did... did I win??
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,053 Arc User
    Honestly, I quit a while ago, because of this.

    1) The new players can barely progress because the more people play the harder it is to reach higher levels because the economy is HAMSTER
    2) mid tier players, are getting discouraged by the lack of content
    3) endgame players are annoyed by all the constant nerfs and imbalances that killed their favorite classes.

    I haven't had the desire to play, however I do have the desire to check up how HAMSTER going just to see how bad it got. That shows somethin, doesn't it?
  • motu999#9953 motu999 Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    greywynd said:



    Never assume. Assumptions are not facts.

    I have been assuming, you are a real person.
    Oh, never assume ... :-)
  • mynaammynaam Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 937 Arc User

    I agree that the current situation in the game is quite bad.
    - Casual players are not having fun anymore, due to all the reasons you stated;
    - People like me and my friends (medium players? almost hardcore? something in between?) are not having so much fun anymore because ToMM is practically impossible for us and everything else is easy.

    I hope that the current CDP Discussion results in good solutions for all groups of players being implemented in upcoming mods.

    Players feel like only bis get content(mod 17 was a bis only mod nothing for other players) and when they talk they get ignored. cause BIS players overrule them!
    There are more than BIS players in this game
    RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ????
    FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
    Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)



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