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  • jules#6770 jules Posts: 339Member Arc User
    There once was a lifesteal sev bug on an enchant ... nobody got banned for that either lol (and well, there was not that much of a reason to get it for anything else)

    HOWEVER I agree completely with @darthpotater, exactly what I meant.

    Also, I mean, we could discuss "what is an exploit" for hundred more pages, because, I mean... there are so many examples...
    What was the big "shocker" wasn't that an exploit was actually considered an exploit for once, but how we went from 0-100.
    Like. How long did people not only check out their loot like mentioned.. but ran 1 dungeon for 100 rqs (weird how that works right) or unlock campfires of next rooms "accidentally" or ... point wands at bosses completely accidentally, either.

    Red-Alert, Exploit incoming! You are warned! Beware, we are actually serious for once!
  • sobi#1980 sobi Posts: 377Member Arc User

    Transparency is the key to avoid this kind of discussions.

    "Darkened is bugged, enjoy it until we fix it"
    or
    "doing this or that in hunts is an exploit, we are aware of it, and will fix ASAP dont use this exploit or you could be banned"

    would be enough for 99% of the players. I hope with the adition of @cwhitesidedev#9752 to the team this kind of situations will be handled much better. Transparency is allways better

    Every single reply to my post has been neglecting what you just said in one sentence "Transparency is the key to avoid this kind of discussions."

    Thank you kind sir, for understanding that there was never really a defense or even a legality issue. There was however an element of distrust when bans were given suddenly. That's what I have been pinpointing. But of course, we want to focus on the darkened "example" given and the Minors. A simple thing as making things clearer to the general playerbase is apparently a taboo in the eyes of most of people commenting here and from the way the dev's have been operating up until now. Hopefully Chris will change this practice and so far the CDP seems like a step in the right direction,
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Posts: 1,533Member Arc User
    edited January 14
    There's a big difference between actively exploiting something that is obviously broken, and something not working as intended.

    In fact "Not working as intended" is a weighted phrase that can mean several things.
    For instance, A Bonus on a weapon is listed as being +5%, and in practice it provides +50% because of a decimal point SNAFU in the implementation that doesn't get picked up in QA.
    But, it can also mean "Had an unintentional impact" which is where Key Peaking comes in.
    I, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this, believe that key peaking probably WAS intended as a thing... but after a while they realised that it was a mistake because of the way it weighted the outcome of chest opening.
    So, rather than (and I don't care what they say...) it always having been the intention for Keys to open without peaking, they realised peaking was having an unintentional negative impact, and declared it "Not working as intended".
    Which is not the same thing as the +5%/+50% example

    This does NOT mean it, or other such examples of unexpected outcomes are anywhere near the same as deliberately activating a known exploit in order to benefit from said KNOWN exploit.

    No one is going to ban you for using a broken artifact, unless the excess or advantage it offers is gained, as @thefiresidecat says, through a specific known sequence of illicit exploitation, (Such as left, left, up, down... leaving a group and rejoining, instance hopping, etc)
    It's just not the same thing.

    If you are using it correctly, as expected and understood within the game, you are not breaking ToS.

    That said...
    Only a fraction of the player base use these forums.

    Cryptic.... you have a means and method for contacting players IN GAME.
    If you need to make people aware of issues that are likely to get them banned...
    In-game Account EMAIL is your friend.
    That way no one can say, "I didn't know... no one told me".
    It completely covers your HAMSTER with a "Send to all" email.
    You have a date stamped digital paper trail at your fingertips.
    Start using it for important stuff. I don't care what the excuses are for not using it in this manner. Find a way to overcome any issues and make it work.
    Post edited by mordekai#1901 on
  • jules#6770 jules Posts: 339Member Arc User
    In my country there is a big difference between entering a locked/secured house and yours (not locked), but my english on those matters really isn't good enough :D
    But yeah, one shouldn't do either :D

    My insurence doesn't cover it if my standard of securing my house doesn't meet theirs tho.

    Do we have do get a red warning sign "pls don't break in"? No.
    Would it be nice if the dog barked before biting my leg off, cause I might just be the friend that forgot their mobile on your desk? Yeah.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Posts: 3,955Member Arc User
    edited January 14
    anyone remember 3 years ago when warlocks had that bug where even a base line entry level lock could out dps a fully geared bis player. I brought one up for the lol's did a couple dungeons and was like sooo boring. but a lot of people did locks for the bug never knowing that warlocks performed as they did because they were massively not WAI and then were full of WAH when they did fix it.. to my knowledge the wah has never ended lol. but no one got banned.
    xbox guild

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    PC imaginary friends special events only

  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Posts: 1,533Member Arc User


    - if i'm a dishonest man, i'm going home with or without saying anything (doesn't matter), and come back then 2 times everyday during one month to do the same manipulation, ending up with a net win of 6100$ until the machine is shut down and repair by the bank.

    If you are a REALLY dishonest man, you take the money you withdrew, walk into the bank and deposit it, and keep doing it over and over, and also post an anonymous video on a Facebook Group called something like "Life Hacks for Wankers" advising anyone with an account at said bank to do the same, because "Hey... they screw us all the time..." so that when it becomes public there are SO many people involved that for the Bank to press charges would be a public relations nightmare and they let you off with a warning.

    Not that I've thought that idea through or anything...
  • sobi#1980 sobi Posts: 377Member Arc User
    edited January 15

    sobi#1980 said:


    All i know personally is that it is not an intended behavior and is a bug at the very least. I am fine with people using it as i am occasionally running with friends using it, but darkened was just an example. Even if it turns out to be an exploit, i personally do not think anyone should be punished because Cryptic knew about this long before.

    Using a bugged artifact and inadvertently trigger a rare bug once in a while is not an exploit.
    If you can't use the artifact without triggering the bug, then it's not really an exploit.
    Intentionnally (or constantly) make it so you are, with some trick moves, provoking a bug associated to an artifact, then it is an exploit.


    I'm using my card in an automated cash machine to take 100$, I accidently simultaneously push "ok" and "cancel" buttons on the screen at the same time while my elbow is also pushing some of the digit buttons used to type the code. The machine gives me 200$ and only debits 100$ from my bank account.

    - if i'm a normal man, i'm going back home without saying anything (and hope maybe the bank will not regularize my bank account within the next few weeks)
    - if i'm an honest man, i'm going inside the bank and speak to an employee to signal the problem and give back the excedentary 100$
    - if i'm a dishonest man, i'm going home with or without saying anything (doesn't matter), and come back then 2 times everyday during one month to do the same manipulation, ending up with a net win of 6100$ until the machine is shut down and repair by the bank.

    Which one(s) is (are) robbing the bank ?
    Nemo censetur ignorare lege. No one is supposed to ignore the law as the old romans would said.

    Even without any knowledge about the current laws in my country (probably not the same as your), can you tell me in which case(s) I can end up with some legal troubles ? Does it change anything if there is 100 other people who did the same ? Does it change anything if the bank was aware of the problem since day 1 but cannot reasonnably shut down this service for the 10 000 other normal users because the maintenance guy who can fix it is not available until one month (and maybe prefer not communicate to avoid seing more dishonnest people thinking they can exploit the cash machine bug) ?


    I know i don't have any alarm at home, and i never lock my door. Everyone knows that in my neighbourhood. Does it allow you to come in and take my TV and my jewelries ? Can I take you to court, as you were filmed with a hidden camera doing that, and say breaking in would only have been an aggravating circumstance of the theft ?


    Not even a single example you provided is relevant. Let me clarify for the 100th time, there is no legality issue here because even if I did not exploit a bug in any manner whatsoever, i can still be banned, simply because of accepting the terms of services. You definitely didn't read the initial comment and just relied on comments which were taken out of context by someone else, hence why I am still beating around the bush.

    However, let me give you a better example. If you get overpaid by the HMRC and you (the claimant) believes that they should not pay it back because of an error by HMRC. Under statute, HMRC may recover all overpayments howsoever caused. Similarly, an employer is entitled to recover the overpayment (your salary), subject to estoppel - the principle. As for theft, an interesting case Lawrence v MPC [1972] AC 626 that you should look into . In layman terms, you used darkened (without using an exploit) to complete TOMM, acquiring loot that is scaled proportionally to the difficulty of it. The evidence of the difficulty reflecting the loot is the proportional buff that halaster received when classes were buffed. Do note the devs actually hold even more power than HMRC mainly because of you accepting their terms of service.

    You now argue in your defense that activating darkened was not through an exploit but you completely ignore that darkened has many behaviors which are unintended in the very nature they operate. Regardless, the loot you acquired was by a means of a clearly called out bugged artifact by the developers and not just slightly bugged but bugged in several dimensions, whilst you had other alternatives available. In your example, "a normal person" is actually doing theft and "can" be reprimanded, note the emphasis. The only difference being in this scenario is the devs will not call out to you for all the loot earned using darkened. Although, by signing their terms of services, I do not doubt that the devs retain the power to take back all your loot earned but that would be against public interest and against the welfare of their own business. Again, many smaller bugs are occasionally used by the player base, it just depends on one's conscience and as you read ahead it will start to make sense.

    IFF you actually read my previous comments, you will note that i am perfectly OK with ANY Hamster using Darkened. I went further and elaborated on how one might see different bugs/exploits depending on their age or even conscience. My guild leader would groin kick me, stone cold stunner me and whilst i am dazed, he would RKO me, if I used darkened in a guild run. Whilst others may use darkened until the last day it gets fixed. Why? Many factors involved, I won't be wasting my remaining finger strength on them BUT a big factor is the lack of "transparency" and the delay in fix. Making sense?

    Darkened will 99.99% not result in a ban (duh), that is clear, and hence why it was just an example to compare with OP's example. If you are using a temporary fix to get that loot, where there is no risk of a ban, the loss is yours. Use the Hamster you want, i'll use the Hamster i want.
    Post edited by sobi#1980 on
  • lantern22lantern22 Posts: 970Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    pitshade said:

    jimmypdt said:



    What about chest peeking, boss bugging, astral diamond rods, etc... I'm with @kreatyve with the "Cheating is cheating" statement. All cheating should be enforced or nothing at all. Picking and choosing causes too many problems as we are currently seeing.
    Just my 2 cents.

    All the best,
    OPTank_

    Who here has advocated not punishing cheaters? Beyond the OP, I mean?

    The 'chest peeking' thing is kind of funny though, given than no one knew it was an 'exploit' until suddenly it was. I mean, who knew that simply clicking a button on a UI could be an exploit. But the OP claims to be detailing all of Cryptic's abuses of player trust, and misses out on a huge one, simply swallowing the lie that was told 3 years ago. For those who don't know, there were 2 buttons on the chest UI. One said Accept and the other said Decline. Hit accept and you get the loot and lose your key. Hit Decline and the UI closes. That suddenly became an exploit, after some years of being fine, just clicking the button that was on the UI. Cryptic only pulled this because they wanted to change how chests would work and thought labeling it an exploit would silence criticism. It blew up in their faces in the form of an eighty page thread that eventually got us the loot tables we have now. That's a story that the OP could have told that actually demonstrates what the player base has been through.
    This probably pissed me off the most. A disgrace.
  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Posts: 146Member Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:


    Not even a single example you provided is relevant. Let me clarify for the 100th time, there is no legality issue here because even if I did not exploit a bug in any manner whatsoever, i can still be banned, simply because of accepting the terms of services.

    Off course. Did I state the contrary ?
    sobi#1980 said:


    However, let me give you a better example. If you get overpaid by the HMRC and you (the claimant) believes that they should not pay it back because of an error by HMRC. Under statute, HMRC may recover all overpayments howsoever caused. Similarly, an employer is entitled to recover the overpayment (your salary), subject to estoppel - the principle. As for theft, an interesting case Lawrence v MPC [1972] AC 626 that you should look into.

    Damn impressive, should I speak to my lawyer before answering ? if only he can speak english...
    So specific... what is HMRC ? why should i look into a foreign (from my perspective) legal casebook/jurisprudence ? What estoppel means and translate in my country laws (if there is something completely equivalent...) ? Is your point is to get a confused audience ?
    Can we switch to my native language so I can also adequately spread my butter on my toast ?
    sobi#1980 said:

    You now argue in your defense that activating darkened was not through an exploit but you completely ignore that darkened has many behaviors which are unintended in the very nature they operate

    .
    In my defense, your honor, yeah... lol rofl...
    Stop the fun there :D. At the end you understood my point and we globally share the same point of view xD.
    sobi#1980 said:

    IFF you actually read my previous comments, you will note that i am perfectly OK with ANY Hamster using Darkened.

    I never said the contrary. maybe i should have not quote you as my message was directed to a more general audience than a answer to you.


    (what's the topic is, i can't rememb... ho !)

    Hey Chris, how are you today ?
  • sobi#1980 sobi Posts: 377Member Arc User




    (what's the topic is, i can't rememb... ho !)

    Hey Chris, how are you today ?

    xD. The topic "was", using darkened is not an exploit but it has a negative impact on the game where the playerbase uses temporary bugs to achieve a goal otherwise too difficult for them. The result is that, due to the lack of transparency and timely fixes from the developers, the playerbase may lose their moral sense of what can constitute as exploit and what offence can lead to a permanent ban. Therefore, a repeat of the history. The solution to the problem is to give clear as HAMSTER warnings and fix game breaking bugs on time rather than mass banning.

    PHEW, My kinder garden essay is finally complete. I think i'll at least get a pass for it, but that way I won't have to take any resits in my summer time :)

    So what was the topic again?
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