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  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,997 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    Great rare transmutes that should keep the 1% role players / fashion players / costume players interested .. or they can just buy them from the flooded auction house are these transmutes bound ..? why not add rare rainbow color shimmering dyes too then ?

    why not a coal ward or a + 1 stat tomb .. now that would keep players coming back ..
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 355 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    @joebot#9387

    Great to see the changes!

    I'm going to ignore the Devil set one, because people kind of wanted it to be like that.

    On the Rusted Iron leggings, I would argue for a +4% damage or even as low as a +3% damage buff. On 3% damage it's already better than any other DPS shoe, even beats that Heels of Fury with 2k power and that it's not restricted to melee powers, which means BiS for every class damagewise. It also further restricts future gears in the minimum general damage they should provide, so while it's very costly to neuter that -25% incoming heal, after I've done it, I will expect something to give at least 5% to consider moving into.

    I think that the transmute gear at least a positive nudge into the right direction, but I hope that it'll get some advertisement for it, because cosmetics need to be shown to people for them to decide whether they want it. On the weapons, I can't say how much they will worth, I sold things for much, like the Hammerstone gear from DW BHE, but also seen how low fashion packs can sell. It's a bet to be sure.

    For the Armor, I'd let it do something, maybe only just having 1300 IL, so it's a thing to be worn.

    However, if we need worthy rewards, maybe let the Lion's guard armor to be Bound on Equip(Account), so, to be sold. They would have at least a minimum value, as the least they give a lot of item level, even the not good ones, but I think the headwear is pretty powerful out of the Undermountain area. So, it would not need more rewards to be introduced, but also made it possible for people to care to farm certain bosses, even if they can't progress through the whole dungeon. It would make people be interested in farming it.
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 355 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    @joebot#9387 But, on a different regards, can we know what's the intentions behind or the goals for the mod19 hunt gears or hunt gears in general?

    For example, Poisoned Leathers of Rage:



    On one side, I can say that it's a free gear item, so it's not a problem if it's bad. And it is horrid, giving percentile more to be hit and only giving static power. It's absurdly bad, not just compared to the Ebony Stained Armor, which is overpowered, but just in general, getting +10% damage dealt to you hardly worth the 5k Power. But because everyone can get it freely, maybe I shouldn't try to balance something that can get replaced in the next mod.

    On the other side, it's not more free than my BiS Primal Armlet or the BiS Rusted Iron leggings, or before it's buff, the shoe that gave me +5000 Power when my AP was full that was the best in slot for me damagewise. And if the "free" rewards from the mod are not good enough, the whole mod looks sort of pale.

    But even if there are good monster rewards in the mod, they are free to be got and while I think that the first month will be painful to farm out, as time goes people will have an easy time to get the gear. And if the "good stuff" was cashed in the first week, it's hard to incentivise players doing dungeons as they already geared up.

    I don't think that there is "a best" approach to this, but it'd be better to know that the hunt gear needs to replace some stuff, free gear for players to catch up or just a fresh batch of gear to play with or realistically, a combination of all of these.
  • dontez1dontez1 Member Posts: 114 Arc User
    @joebot#9387 Would it be possible to change the stat bonus on The Whip of the Erinyes? I would like to suggest a +2 Str / +2 Int, so it may be better utilized by all Dps classes. The +2 Int/Chr will only be able to by half or so.. I'm sure any Erinyes would agree that those Fighters, Rogues, and especially the Barbies need to feel the sting of that whip! :astonished:
  • isaacorion#1994 isaacorion Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    Call of Evil change - good generalist change, set is something you can toss low-level alts if nothing else.
    Rusted Leggings change - a welcome change, but it'll still likely be the bane of many a healer's sanity.
    Cosmetic gears - While I kinda sorta like the idea of the cosmetic items getting re-introduced, I'm slightly concerned that I'm going to be burning through my rerolls digging through cosmetics looking for a whip and a book.
    And finally - RIP Bow of the Wilds (Ranger Main-hand), it's already available as a reskin with a very cheap craft in Artificing.
    Warlock: Don't want to let you down but I am hell bound. - Imagine Dragons
    Cleric: You can be an angel of mercy or give in to hate. - Shinedown
    Wizard: The more the dark consumes me, I pretend I'm burning bright. - Shinedown
    Barbarian: Am I beautiful... as I tear you to pieces? - In This Moment
  • ramesh84ramesh84 Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    hello there!
    Despite the effort I still feel Call of Evil changes will still add confusion on which set to pick and will still remain situationally BiS for new dungeon only (I am not even sure it is working on last boss as it should be a construct), still assuming a player needs new set stats to reach infernal citadels caps.
    As long there's no way at the moment to bind enchantments setup on a loadout, having to swap them manually will end up in a huge pain every time you have to play new/old content.
    In other words: would be great having the bonus doubled (5% overall and additional 5% versus demons, etc) in order to finally give dps classes a best in slot and give a serious reason to farm new dungeon instead of tomm only.
    Ty for reading!
  • hainegen#3999 hainegen Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    I would suggest respected developers to generally review the system of characteristics of objects. It would be more interesting if things possessed only some kind of bonus ... And the player obtained points of characteristics in dungeons or quests ... And the more difficult the dungeon, the more quantity he could get ...

    A redistribution of performance points would be worth a certain fine from the total available ...

    I think my idea is clear) Then there would be an incentive to go to absolutely any dungeon)))
  • lordaeoloslordaeolos Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User
    dontez1 said:

    @joebot#9387 Would it be possible to change the stat bonus on The Whip of the Erinyes? I would like to suggest a +2 Str / +2 Int, so it may be better utilized by all Dps classes. The +2 Int/Chr will only be able to by half or so.. I'm sure any Erinyes would agree that those Fighters, Rogues, and especially the Barbies need to feel the sting of that whip! :astonished:

    I second this. The damage increase is a welcome improvement on this set, and makes it slightly more valid for content outside of the new module (it certainly won't be BiS outside the new content, but it may be "good enough" for ToMM), but really should be +2 STR and +2 Int instead of +2 int/Chr in order to ensure it creates incentive to run the new dungeon for all classes.

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  • xander#0631 xander Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    Hello everyone,
    i like the idea of tempus86, an armor set that each piece get you a buff effect (like the drow and the SOMI one) , if possible make 3 set : one for tank, one for dps, one for healer.

    By doing so there will be less chance that a single piece of armor will be kept for years beacause the effect is bound to the entire set because is less likely that player will keep an entire old armor only to mantain a bonus.

    The first 2 bonus can be specific for the mod, and the 3rd a generic one:

    dps
    2/4 : when in combat with a demon, fiend or devil , your run speed is increased by 5%
    3/4 : when you stand behind a demon, fiend or devil your critical severity is increased by 5%
    4/4 : your attack with combat advantage deal 5% more damage

    tank
    2/4 : when in combat with a demon, fiend or devil , your run speed is increased by 5%
    3/4 : when you are stuck by a demon, fiend or devil your resistence regeneraion is increased by 15%
    4/4 : when you are healed you take 10% less damage for 10 seconds

    helaer
    2/4 : when in combat with a demon, fiend or devil , your run speed is increased by 5%
    3/4 : when in combat with a demon, fiend or devil , your outgoing healing is increased by 7,5%
    4/4 : drinking a potion garants 5% critical severity

    or something like this, i don't know about the bonus, those are something i thought upon and think may be usefull for each class of the specific role, but the numbers are almost casual, i took them from other items in the game.

    I think that these tipe of armor let us enjoy more the game and the single mod (or at least to me) other preventing the domination of a single item for multiple mods, are easily replaciable by the developers, and have the percentile that the player want.
    it's a possible thing to do?

    English is not my main language, i'm sorry for every error i made
    reality is what most recognize as true
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 355 Arc User
    I think people here miss that the Call of Evil set probably is not planned to be BiS for a long time, but a specific set.

    Hello everyone,
    i like the idea of tempus86, an armor set that each piece get you a buff effect (like the drow and the SOMI one) , if possible make 3 set : one for tank, one for dps, one for healer.

    By doing so there will be less chance that a single piece of armor will be kept for years beacause the effect is bound to the entire set because is less likely that player will keep an entire old armor only to mantain a bonus.

    The first 2 bonus can be specific for the mod, and the 3rd a generic one:

    dps
    2/4 : when in combat with a demon, fiend or devil , your run speed is increased by 5%
    3/4 : when you stand behind a demon, fiend or devil your critical severity is increased by 5%
    4/4 : your attack with combat advantage deal 5% more damage

    tank
    2/4 : when in combat with a demon, fiend or devil , your run speed is increased by 5%
    3/4 : when you are stuck by a demon, fiend or devil your resistence regeneraion is increased by 15%
    4/4 : when you are healed you take 10% less damage for 10 seconds

    helaer
    2/4 : when in combat with a demon, fiend or devil , your run speed is increased by 5%
    3/4 : when in combat with a demon, fiend or devil , your outgoing healing is increased by 7,5%
    4/4 : drinking a potion garants 5% critical severity

    or something like this, i don't know about the bonus, those are something i thought upon and think may be usefull for each class of the specific role, but the numbers are almost casual, i took them from other items in the game.

    I think that these tipe of armor let us enjoy more the game and the single mod (or at least to me) other preventing the domination of a single item for multiple mods, are easily replaciable by the developers, and have the percentile that the player want.
    it's a possible thing to do?

    English is not my main language, i'm sorry for every error i made

    My 2 points on this:

    1, I don't like set pieces that are not useful outside their own bubble. The old sets had this huge problem that players were expected to carry sets pieces from like 5 sets, because they specialised specific content that people ran. This problem already happening with the artifact set as people don't want it to be specific to the dungeon, but BiS, to not need respeccing.

    2, I think it's more of a mod19 gear discussion or they need to introduce it like next week. I hope that the developers would help us by making the tab for the mod19 gear before mod19 gets into preview, so we can extensively test them out. But for now, I would more likely to want the current gear to be tweaked a little, or just know how we should look into testing them.
  • xander#0631 xander Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited January 2020


    My 2 points on this:

    1, I don't like set pieces that are not useful outside their own bubble. The old sets had this huge problem that players were expected to carry sets pieces from like 5 sets, because they specialised specific content that people ran. This problem already happening with the artifact set as people don't want it to be specific to the dungeon, but BiS, to not need respeccing.

    i agree, i too don't like pieces specific to mod/dungeon, but by doing so we can get each new mod new piece with other effect and can stop using old one, in old content the new pieces will be more powerfull, because we have more stat that are without cap like power and HP, and a set effect that work everywhere.
    there will be less fear that an item will be kept for long because new item will have equally good effect and not trash bonus, old content will never be too easy because of scaling there will be mitigation on stat, but not too hard because the new gear will have some effect that work there specific to the role played (dps, tank, healer).

    I'm not an end-gamer but this is what i think: when the new mod will go live they will run the content, do the dungeon a couple of time then what? old pieces are better, they reach the item level and stat cap even without new gear, if they don't have to get a new gear then in a month (the time to get the boons) there will be nothing else to do (this is what i think, correct me if i'm wrong).

    i like set only because of the idea of an armor set nothing more, that keep me from thinking which piece has a better effect than the other (to me it ìs not always a banal question), usually have a more homogeneous art, and with them the implementation of multiple effect bound to multiple items is possible, so the only thing we need is to make some effect usefull everywhere for the complete(so that older content become easier) and some effect specific to the mod for a non complete set (so that new content can be ran more smoothly and incourage the player to change the gear at the next mod)

    if the majority of player or the developer team think otherwise then it's not a problem i will adapt to the choice made.

    edit: corrected some error and a specification i'm talking about armor that can be brought with seals or rare drop, head, armor, gauntlets and shoes, not artifact or thing that need refinind or restoration
    Post edited by xander#0631 on
    reality is what most recognize as true
  • milehighxr#1299 milehighxr Member Posts: 409 Arc User

    Good day folks,

    Thanks again for all the feedback and bugs! We continue to read your posts and consider all suggestions.

    The feedback we have thus far taken action on and hope to get to you soon in a build:

    • Call of Evil from the Dark Remnant artifact set will now increase damage dealt by 2.5% against all targets. Damage dealt is increased by an additional 2.5% against demons, devils, and fiends.
    • Gluttonous Might from the Rusted Iron Leggings had the penalty reduced from -50% incoming healing bonus to -25% incoming healing bonus.
    Additionally, we are adding rare, exclusive items to the Infernal Citadel dungeon chest in the form of transmutes for costume appearances no longer available in the game. These items include:
    • Armor of Insanity - Chest armor representing a plaguechanged maw.
    • Retired promotional class items will also have a chance of dropping from the chest:
      • Controller's Arcanist Orb
      • Cleric's Exalted Symbol
      • Great Weapon's Goring Greatsword
      • Fated Pact Blade
      • Guardian's Wyvern Sword and Shield
      • Paladin's Blessed Mace and Shield
      • Bow and Hatchets of the Wild
      • Trickster's Flurry and Parry Daggers
    As always, we are thankful for your continued feedback and bug reports.
    Are these transmutes going to be 100% unbound? If not, I can see several folks(myself included) not running this dungeon after they get their weapons. I don't want fashion/vanity pet trash that is totally worthless to me, unless I can sell it for AD on the AH. I have nearly 30 vanity pets, many several duplicates, that are totally worthless to me because they are BtC on pick up. This was the biggest reason I stopped running MEs, and very nearly skipped mod 17 altogether. The most frequent reward given was absolute trash. I don't wanna spend time running content for anything less than an epic drop that I can actually use, and unbound. If it's something I can't/don't want to use on the toon that picked it up I wanna be able to move to another toon, or sell it/trade it for what I do want.

    As it stands right now, I will only be running mod 18 for the boon points(maybe). I haven't seen anything to get really excited about with this next mod, let alone so earth shattering that I feel like putting more quarters in the slot...
  • arkai#8115 arkai Member Posts: 172 Arc User
    Its fun dev nerfed orcus and its still one of best option we have... All set with higher item lev excepet the new 1 are daily chained this is need to be reworked all mod 16-17 set need to be better and no proc only if daily cast
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 355 Arc User


    My 2 points on this:

    1, I don't like set pieces that are not useful outside their own bubble. The old sets had this huge problem that players were expected to carry sets pieces from like 5 sets, because they specialised specific content that people ran. This problem already happening with the artifact set as people don't want it to be specific to the dungeon, but BiS, to not need respeccing.

    i agree, i too don't like pieces specific to mod/dungeon, but by doing so we can get each new mod new piece with other effect and can stop using old one, in old content the new pieces will be more powerfull, because we have more stat that are without cap like power and HP, and a set effect that work everywhere.
    there will be less fear that an item will be kept for long because new item will have equally good effect and not trash bonus, old content will never be too easy because of scaling there will be mitigation on stat, but not too hard because the new gear will have some effect that work there specific to the role played (dps, tank, healer).

    I'm not an end-gamer but this is what i think: when the new mod will go live they will run the content, do the dungeon a couple of time then what? old pieces are better, they reach the item level and stat cap even without new gear, if they don't have to get a new gear then in a month (the time to get the boons) there will be nothing else to do (this is what i think, correct me if i'm wrong).

    i like set only because of the idea of an armor set nothing more, that keep me from thinking which piece has a better effect than the other (to me it ìs not always a banal question), usually have a more homogeneous art, and with them the implementation of multiple effect bound to multiple items is possible, so the only thing we need is to make some effect usefull everywhere for the complete(so that older content become easier) and some effect specific to the mod for a non complete set (so that new content can be ran more smoothly and incourage the player to change the gear at the next mod)

    if the majority of player or the developer team think otherwise then it's not a problem i will adapt to the choice made.

    edit: corrected some error and a specification i'm talking about armor that can be brought with seals or rare drop, head, armor, gauntlets and shoes, not artifact or thing that need refinind or restoration
    So, for the first 2 paragraph, I fail to see the mentioned benefits. Forcing players to grind and change due to artificial benefits is worse than "old" items lingering around, which at the moment, is not really true anymore. Only the primal armlet is viable for some class or the melee boots, otherwise, new items did replaced the old ones. Ebony Stained Armor, Protege cap, Ebony stained shirt, mod16-17 rings, they all replaced the old ones, even if in some cases they only gave stats difference, not effect. The reason was to change because it gave a benefit over the old.

    The problem with the "old gear" is not with the old gears, but with the new ones, they are half of the time aimless or just got very little thought in or now even comparable to old, existing items. New items have to get significantly better than old ones, otherwise people will be forced to engage with outdated contents.

    On the endgame players: Well, it's true, but it's because the recent mods does not give out much to do. Making a set that everyone needs will be less useful to endgame players, unless you want to make it really hard for the average players to get it. I have more thing to do next mod to get the Tacticals and a legendary ioun stone of allure to counter the Rusted Iron leggings backside than probably the whole gear system that the mod itself provides.

    And just to be clear, I like the set ideas in general, I proposed set idea here before. I just don't think that forcing players to use 3 piece each or if multiple sets become the norm, change enchants for tremendous gold costs will be hated over the playerbase. I think if sets need a bonus, it's probably as the old system went and the 1. piece should get the job done and the bonuses it gives should be more specific or need building around.
  • xander#0631 xander Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    @theraxin#5169

    i agree with you.



    The problem with the "old gear" is not with the old gears, but with the new ones, they are half of the time aimless or just got very little thought in or now even comparable to old, existing items. New items have to get significantly better than old ones, otherwise people will be forced to engage with outdated contents.

    as i see the new gear is what it is because they fear it will stay forever when they want player to change gear every mod and to do that they will need new gear with more powerfull effect, the effects on the newer ones are not good like the old ones because the old were the cause of people becoming power freak and bulldoze trought dungeon and content, ignoring mechanics and role, another thing that the developer tried to change with mod 16.
    the old gear made it possible, enemies were killed before one can se or use the mechanics, even now sometimes that happend: how many times i've done a FBI in the last 3 month with powerfull dps, at drufi they don't want to wait for ice so go for the kill, and use a scroll of mass life to resurrect when she uses the 'winter demnis' ?

    I think the problem is not of simple solution and i don't know how things work so what effect put on pieces, then another idea can be a bis armor set for the new content that can be get from the campaing store with campaing currency, and a set bis-everywhere for end-gamers that can be took from drop/chest in the new dungeon or like the lionheart, every time you run the dungeon you will get a token and with 3 or 4 or 6 token you can buy a piece of the bis-everywhere.
    Doing that will be again difficult to change and the situation will return like pre mod 16; that is why my idea was for something that work for the single mod better that anythings else, but remain bis until the next mod like the changes done to the call of evil set : you get a 2,5% everywhere and 5% in the specific mod, i really like the idea of the buff if put on an armor set like:
    x/4 : +2,5% damage to demon fiend and devil
    4/4 : +2,5% damage to enemies
    or something like this

    p.s. i'm not sure am i going off topic? in which case i'm sorry

    reality is what most recognize as true
  • carloswartune#5709 carloswartune Member Posts: 239 Arc User

    I am disappointed that you caved in to people and lowered the penalty for Rusted Iron Leggings. They were 1 of my favorite item designs, as they imposed a harsh penalty, but were situationally very good and are in my mind an example of the direction item design should take. Item design is poor if 1 item is always best in slot in all circumstances. For the same reason, items that give bonuses against specific enemies are more interesting than items that give damage against everything, for the precise reason that it does force you to use many items if you want to be optimal.

    I consider caving in to people in this thread to be a step backwards in item design.

    Even though I'm a healer (and those boots would certainly make things "interesting" in randoms), I agree. People talk so much about wanting build diversity back, but also want new items to be BiS for everything everywhere. There's no way to have diversity if an item or build is BiS everywhere.

    IMO, both types of item should be available: weaker items that are decent everywhere and items that are stronger for specific enemies and/or situations. If someone wants to be BiS everywhere, they should make the effort to have many "specific" sets. If they don't want to make the effort, then they should use "generalist" items that are "ok" in all situations.

    That said, the current way enchantments work would make the switch very clunky for anybody that wants to have many "specific" sets, not because of the gold costs (gold needs to have sinks other than professions anyway), but because of how boring is to switch everything. I don't think the effort to have many specific sets should also include the effort to have many duplicate enchantments. A system where enchantments are somehow set per loadout (instead of per item) would make this way better, but there are some edge cases that need to be taken care of (like items not always having the same number of slots or different slot types).
  • dontez1dontez1 Member Posts: 114 Arc User

    I am disappointed that you caved in to people and lowered the penalty for Rusted Iron Leggings. They were 1 of my favorite item designs, as they imposed a harsh penalty, but were situationally very good and are in my mind an example of the direction item design should take. Item design is poor if 1 item is always best in slot in all circumstances. For the same reason, items that give bonuses against specific enemies are more interesting than items that give damage against everything, for the precise reason that it does force you to use many items if you want to be optimal.

    I consider caving in to people in this thread to be a step backwards in item design.


    I agree that the Rusted Leggings are a great design, I like the risk vs reward. I disagree that the change to -25% inc heals was a bad idea though. The -50% was a severe penalty that most of the player base would not be able to overcome. Even -25% is going to cost 10 mil ad worth of Tacticals to just break even. That IS a harsh penalty much of the player base is still not going to be able to overcome. Most will still have a negative to incoming heals using these boots. The gear should be more accessible to a broader player base without just outright killing them lol.

  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,247 Arc User
    dontez1 said:

    I am disappointed that you caved in to people and lowered the penalty for Rusted Iron Leggings. They were 1 of my favorite item designs, as they imposed a harsh penalty, but were situationally very good and are in my mind an example of the direction item design should take. Item design is poor if 1 item is always best in slot in all circumstances. For the same reason, items that give bonuses against specific enemies are more interesting than items that give damage against everything, for the precise reason that it does force you to use many items if you want to be optimal.

    I consider caving in to people in this thread to be a step backwards in item design.


    I agree that the Rusted Leggings are a great design, I like the risk vs reward. I disagree that the change to -25% inc heals was a bad idea though. The -50% was a severe penalty that most of the player base would not be able to overcome. Even -25% is going to cost 10 mil ad worth of Tacticals to just break even. That IS a harsh penalty much of the player base is still not going to be able to overcome. Most will still have a negative to incoming heals using these boots. The gear should be more accessible to a broader player base without just outright killing them lol.

    And I believe being BiS should be expensive. If you want to use items with harsh penalties you need to be prepared to pay the cost. In fact, I feel that becoming BiS in NW is far too cheap.

    I am disappointed that you caved in to people and lowered the penalty for Rusted Iron Leggings. They were 1 of my favorite item designs, as they imposed a harsh penalty, but were situationally very good and are in my mind an example of the direction item design should take. Item design is poor if 1 item is always best in slot in all circumstances. For the same reason, items that give bonuses against specific enemies are more interesting than items that give damage against everything, for the precise reason that it does force you to use many items if you want to be optimal.

    I consider caving in to people in this thread to be a step backwards in item design.

    Even though I'm a healer (and those boots would certainly make things "interesting" in randoms), I agree. People talk so much about wanting build diversity back, but also want new items to be BiS for everything everywhere. There's no way to have diversity if an item or build is BiS everywhere.

    IMO, both types of item should be available: weaker items that are decent everywhere and items that are stronger for specific enemies and/or situations. If someone wants to be BiS everywhere, they should make the effort to have many "specific" sets. If they don't want to make the effort, then they should use "generalist" items that are "ok" in all situations.

    That said, the current way enchantments work would make the switch very clunky for anybody that wants to have many "specific" sets, not because of the gold costs (gold needs to have sinks other than professions anyway), but because of how boring is to switch everything. I don't think the effort to have many specific sets should also include the effort to have many duplicate enchantments. A system where enchantments are somehow set per loadout (instead of per item) would make this way better, but there are some edge cases that need to be taken care of (like items not always having the same number of slots or different slot types).
    I agree. A simple way to resolve the enchantment issue is to remove the sockets from the items and instead have a seperate UI panel for the enchantments you use, that way you can switch gear pieces without having to unsocket and resocket enchantments, since they are socketed into that other piece of UI.
  • dontez1dontez1 Member Posts: 114 Arc User

    And I believe being BiS should be expensive. If you want to use items with harsh penalties you need to be prepared to pay the cost. In fact, I feel that becoming BiS in NW is far too cheap.



    lmao... I disagree with this too... Everyone should have a chance at the top...Not just the whales.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,211 Arc User
    dontez1 said:


    And I believe being BiS should be expensive. If you want to use items with harsh penalties you need to be prepared to pay the cost. In fact, I feel that becoming BiS in NW is far too cheap.



    lmao... I disagree with this too... Everyone should have a chance at the top...Not just the whales.

    To be on top, you need to put in the time. Being BiS should not be for the casual players. And part of that should be the ability to play your class and be able to avoid getting hit (for appropriate classes), along with the right dps rotations. In fact, most of those players who beat ToMM shortly after it was released I am sure have not put a lot of real money into the game, but instead invested time and practiced.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,247 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    dontez1 said:


    And I believe being BiS should be expensive. If you want to use items with harsh penalties you need to be prepared to pay the cost. In fact, I feel that becoming BiS in NW is far too cheap.



    lmao... I disagree with this too... Everyone should have a chance at the top...Not just the whales.

    I have not spent anything on NW and neither did most of the people in the first group to complete ToMM. The point is, being BiS should take investment (either in the form of time or money) and in NW it takes very little investment. If the people who played this game played pretty much any other online game that has gear progression they would realize how trivial gearing up is in this game.

    Being BiS should be hard to achieve, since it gives people something to strive for. Once you have everything, there is nothing else to get. Having something left to obtain gives people something to do.
  • dontez1dontez1 Member Posts: 114 Arc User


    To be on top, you need to put in the time. Being BiS should not be for the casual players. And part of that should be the ability to play your class and be able to avoid getting hit (for appropriate classes), along with the right dps rotations. In fact, most of those players who beat ToMM shortly after it was released I am sure have not put a lot of real money into the game, but instead invested time and practiced.


    Why can't a casual person be BiS? Maybe they have been a casual player for awhile? Why can't someone new to the game only playing for a few months not be BiS and wan't to be in the endgame dungeons with guildies? Why should it take years to get to endgame and not a month or 2. There is no reason a someone can't learn a class in a few weeks playing this game. It's the really slow progression system that has been in place for years that should be streamlined. It shouldn't be slowed down more for new players. It should be streamlined to help new players get to endgame faster. Look around. There are less players now than ever, and maybe some would stick around if they could do ToMM easier.
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 670 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    It doesn't have to be "expensive" in AD. It could be expensive in other ways.
    What we lack, and I think @thefabricant also talked about different progression systems once... I don't remember the thread; anyway, what we lack are opportunities for BIS gear beyond that one trial or that one dungeon every mod, or simply getting it thrown at us.
    Like vivified primals, only better. If there were several pieces of armor that could work as they all are within a basic stats range and there were several benefits you could get from several systems, there would be more brain investment, more time investment (and what NW really needs is something to do for the players) and perhaps more community/social investment.
    As in, progression systems related to gear. We could already have one - Professions/MW, but it doesn't have to be the only one (if it worked like that) there could be ways to improve/upgrade/change gear to fit every kind of situation, but in different ways. There could be reagences to farm in campaign (+ old campaign) environment, in dungeon loot, in professions, from SH content (DF?) or perhaps farming certain pieces from certain bosses (like taking the Hide from Hati to +2k crit, or to create a stone to fit into armor that needs pieces of 5 different bosses whatever) I mean, we could go wild like this.
    Get a basic armor piece. Have several ways to change that armor piece, to fit it for what you want to do with it (maybe leave +%dmg out of it) let if have some slots. Put in outgoing healing, put in incoming healing, put in combinations that make it HARD to be BIS but also don't punish you for considering them (like -50%... cmon we can do better) put in specific crit sev bonuses for certain content, specific AP gain bonuses for other content.
    I don't think BIS = expensive in AD only is the way to go. Yeah, let people buy those Tomm-rings. I don't care about that. What I mean is, give everybody a way to improve and find more ways to get a char BIS. Let people get creative. Let some people make mistakes. What I really miss is some complexity, and different ways to obtain BIS. The way is too carved out now. Level up. Run Undermountain. Make AD. Get this set of armor or if you can't, get the second best. Try to do Tomm. Wait for next mod.
    - bye bye -
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,211 Arc User
    Since the drop of ToMM, I've seen more older players and friends come back into the game, as they actually have something to do in the game that they can strive for. If you can get BiS in a few months, why should you play the game any more? Having a goal gives a player something to work for and do. As it stands, you can spend only a few months to get BiS, minus maybe some legendary companions and/or a legendary mount. As for casual players, which I count myself as, sure it's possible to get BiS in a bit longer time, but the total time spend is likely similar hours to a hardcore player that gets there in 3 months. And once you get to BiS, the maintenance is really only a month to finish the new campaign and hunt for items, leaving the other 3-5 months of just sitting around waiting for new content.
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 670 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    The grind is not much here. That is true. I have personally seen people starting with M16 and now being able to do tomm (with some Money invested) or close to (with a lot of time invested) and that is just not what I want from a game.
    It is supposed to be hard, but not impossible. I spent a year catching up with others several mods ago, and that was probably the most fun I had in the game. (That was also because as soon as I was good to go, HAMSTER got shot to hell.)
    I have also seen older players being so annoyed at the current situation that they are leaving now. But I don't think that it has much to do with tomm. Tomm might be good for some, not so good for others, but personally, I think its partly due to the fact that new players experience a completely different game now, and have different opinions about it, than vets. Some vets are indifferent about it, some vets are hurt that all the work they put into the game before M16 seems to weigh less than before, some are sad about their friends leaving, some are bored to death because they can't or won't do Tomm because of several reasons. But there is just nothing left to do. Other content seems idiotic. It is unrewarding, takes too long, reminds of times where the game had a different feel to it.
    But I really don't think people leave because the grind is too long. Occassionally, we got new players complaining in chat about the grind, but you will have that in any game, and many games are far more grindy than the current NW. If you like the game, you don't mind, and if you don't like the game, you complain and quit over "the grind".
    I believe that if a game is good enough, you will grind your way through.
    - bye bye -
  • dontez1dontez1 Member Posts: 114 Arc User

    I have not spent anything on NW and neither did most of the people in the first group to complete ToMM. The point is, being BiS should take investment (either in the form of time or money) and in NW it takes very little investment. If the people who played this game played pretty much any other online game that has gear progression they would realize how trivial gearing up is in this game.

    Being BiS should be hard to achieve, since it gives people something to strive for. Once you have everything, there is nothing else to get. Having something left to obtain gives people something to do.

    I agree being BiS shouldn't just be handed out but it isn't easy. You know being BiS is a lot more than the the few gear pieces you have on... Like the boots.. It's the $1500+ worth of r15s, insigs, companions, and leg mounts that make you BiS. For those of us that have played for years we have accumulated that wealth on our characters. For new players becoming BiS is daunting...not easy. Yes you can pay.. or grind for months. It is not trivial..
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 670 Arc User
    I would feel a bit miffed if a new character could just get r15s in a short time. I know what you mean, but I have no idea how to go about making progress easier for new people that doesn't dimnish everybody's effort before that. We already have so much worthless stuff from NW not caring about effort, and I am already offended by what r15 bondings are worth currently, I would be bitter if new people could have that in too short of a time period. I don't know.
    - bye bye -
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,461 Arc User
    dontez1 said:



    Why can't a casual person be BiS? Maybe they have been a casual player for awhile? Why can't someone new to the game only playing for a few months not be BiS and wan't to be in the endgame dungeons with guildies? Why should it take years to get to endgame and not a month or 2. There is no reason a someone can't learn a class in a few weeks playing this game. It's the really slow progression system that has been in place for years that should be streamlined. It shouldn't be slowed down more for new players. It should be streamlined to help new players get to endgame faster. Look around. There are less players now than ever, and maybe some would stick around if they could do ToMM easier.

    Three reasons.

    First:

    Because there are two main currencies in the game, one is tied to "real money" and named ZEN, and the second one is tied to time, and called AD.

    The entire pay to progress faster model of NW tied to the concept of you either put the time, or you put the credit card. A casual person want to be BiS? No problem, there is a nice charge page there, and it one of the main things that keeps the servers running, people who want shortcuts, have the money, and value their time more than the grind in the game.

    The whole concept of BiS friends and join them is the main motivator of casuals to pay in this monetization system.

    Second:

    If BiS is easily attainable, the game doesn't have long term goals, meaning a player joins the game, plays, achieves BiS, goes plays something else.
    Said ToMM alone occupies my guild for half year now, just because we couldn't finish it. Once it is done, you can repeat it only so much. It no longer a challenge or a goal, it is a grind.

    Next mod, do new dungeon, get new gear pieces, the one or two of interest, and can take a break until next mod after it.

    If there are no goals, there are no active players. And if BiS is easy to achieve (or "geared enough relative to content"), for most players, there are no goals, and no goals, means no playing except the glorified chat client, which most moved to discord.

    Third:

    Value of the first point. Once a player put some cash or time, or a mix of both, they expect for it to have value, if something is easily attainable is had less value, if something is harder to attain it has more value. Simple economy rules.
    What any game progress means if it is "gifted"? Again this moves the game into the glorified chat client.
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