test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

M18 Class Balance Adjustments

189111314

Comments

  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 399 Arc User
    djnasty93 said:

    Please take an eye on pvp when you increase 'Dc' dmg, Dc overperforming in pvp


    From my understanding these nerfs are a result of data collected from ToMM runs, and I just want to make sure that you (the devs) are looking at it in detail and not just as a whole. For example, not just "Arcanist is doing X% more damage than other classes on average, so lets nerf some of arcanist's class features to balance it out."

    That is not where the balance changes can from. They came from data which included a much wider view of the game with lots of different endgame content.
    Sorry to disturb you, could we maybe get some insight into if whether the changes on preview for balance, are full and final until mod 19 or whether you will consider other changes (don't need to specify) before mod 18? I am asking so i can plan when i can seriously start playing the game on live. Out of curiosity, why must balance not be touched during mod 18? I think it would be wise to give a small buff and collect data and balance accordingly because otherwise you will stretch balancing for some classes until mod 20. It's not as difficult as Cryptic is making it, it is basically a simple math, much too simple really.
  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited January 6

    Creeping Death has been brought up a few times in this thread, while there will be patch notes as we get more builds onto preview which will cover bug fixes, this one was both brought up enough in this thread and is changing enough to get a specific call out.

    Creeping Death was never going to work ideally for what it was attempting to do. I did experiment with the power for a while before the holidays before deciding to build it a bit differently which would allow it to function properly.

    The change is that Creeping Death will deal 10 magnitude damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds and it will stack 10 times. This will allow the power to continue to do damage while fighting a target which has it applied already and allow for a player to keep it at max stacks doing 100 magnitude every 2 seconds as long as they are continuing to fight the target.


    Some Clarification then please.
    IF the main target has 10 stacks, and the damage is every 2 seconds, does it deal the 100magnitude damage immediately, or only after 2 seconds has passed?
    Does a new attack refresh the timer? thus preventing the DoT to deal damage at all?
    Or is there some kind of ICD for applying a stack of creeping death.

    My concern is that it sounds a lot like the DoT portion of hellish rebuke, except that it stacks, but the DoT part of hellish rebuke hardly does any damage at all since it is constantly being refreshed, and that's every 1 second, not every 2second

  • legend#9825 legend Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    > @raven#3338 said:
    > (Quote)
    > I refrain from using Soul Puppet as much as I can. Its damage is ridiculous, it attacks or not, randomly just staying in place (stupid or what? it acts like fighter companions hence it's useless just like them), it attacks whatever it meets in its way, summoning Puppet forces me to use powers I don't like in my rotation, Risky Investment - stacks of SI are built way too slow, by the time I have 2, everything dies AND I noticed Hadar's Grasp used on cursed boss doesn't always grant a stack of SI (bug or WAI because of lazy development?).
    > Anyways, I stay away from Puppet and my damage is not bad, even though my warlock is a shadow of its own shadow after Mod16 nerf hammer. But I did invest a lot in him regarding stats and it's my main, most favorite class still. With current buffs on preview it looks promising but one thing that comes to my mind is this damn puppt. Building ONLY around puppet is not wise since I know many warlocks that don't use it neither, except for occasional Killing Flames effect. Some people just don't like stuff chasing them (and so I use ioun stone as summoned companion). Puppet cannot be controlled in a way that I could command it to attack, it doesn't tank, it just flies here and there, annoying me as hell. Checked ACT, its contribution to overall warlock's damage is stupid. As said, I have Risky Investment chosen because having puppet sumoned all the time makes me sick. Then why you suggest more powers that can summon puppet? I'd be better to leave it as it is, some players run with puppet some run without it but their damage should be equal, this needs overall more buff to warlock's powers and better synergy. Also, I have two loadouts for Hellbringer, one built around curse's damage and one built around Parting Blasphemy. The first one performs much better regarding damage output. On both I run Risky Investment, for aformentioned reasons. I don't want to have more powers summoning puppet, there are enough. I'd rather see puppet as support, not a center of damage as simply some warlocks don't like to rely on it, the same as some players still use fighter companions and some prefer to do damage on their own.
    >
    > On another note, Soulweaver needs MAJOR rework. Like, total, enormous, absolute rework and building from the ground. What it is now is an absolute mess and lame illusion of a healer in a majority of content. I will write up much more about Soulweaver some time soon as I find this paragon fun to play (and I have powerful cleric healer, I like healing but made cleric to have VIABLE healer, thanks devs...) and I really don't like being forced to create another class every time I want to play another role, if my main class has been given two choices.

    The simple reason is speed up Risky Investment stack..... Puppet is useless at least we get the encounter power damage output.
  • isaacorion#1994 isaacorion Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    The only question for new Creeping Death changes:
    Can the DoT crit, and is it affected by Power/%dmg buffs/enemy %dmg-taken debuffs?
    At least I'll have a reason to loadup my warlock on Preview now.
    Warlock: Don't want to let you down but I am hell bound. - Imagine Dragons
    Cleric: You can be an angel of mercy or give in to hate. - Shinedown
    Wizard: The more the dark consumes me, I pretend I'm burning bright. - Shinedown
    Barbarian: Am I beautiful... as I tear you to pieces? - In This Moment
  • ramesh84ramesh84 Member Posts: 123 Arc User
    edited January 7

    The only question for new Creeping Death changes:
    Can the DoT crit, and is it affected by Power/%dmg buffs/enemy %dmg-taken debuffs?
    At least I'll have a reason to loadup my warlock on Preview now.

    As a magnitude-based derived proc I am expecting it to work same as other ones (ie. bilethorn or striking advantage), that means it should scale with power/buffs/debuffs/crit/CA but time will say.
    As long the focus is on bugfixing would be great having a fix for tyrannical curse as well, as the damage links does not look to be WAI

    that is on a capped stat toon.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 559 Arc User
    edited January 7
    2 Rogue at-wills are almost never used by end-game players...

    General At-Will: Cloud of Steel. suggest increasing magnitude by 5 and changing the effect from adds 2.5% to its own damage each time it hits, to become adds 1% to all damage each time it hits.

    Whisperknife At-Will: Disheartening Strike. suggest adding the effect of increasing Stealth Bar by 1% each hit.


    These are "low damage" at wills. It would be nice to be able to use them from time to time as a contributing support at-will.
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 333 Arc User

    I think mob's HP needs to be double or tripled in end game content (which is basically just LoMM/ToMM atm). You can balance classes as much as you want for a certain amount of dps over say 10 seconds, but if one class does a higher burst in 2 seconds, and another a more steady curve over that 10 seconds, the first will win out since mobs never live long enough. That's been my general conclusion while revisiting my Wizard. It relies on procs from SS which atm only has a 15% chance to proc on any given attack (50% * 30% = 15%). Warlocks can get CA on crits which is 50% chance, Wizard can choose Nightmare Wizardry, but that's only a 5% chance to proc on any given attack. While the fact that certain attacks tic multiple times does help, the chances are still relatively low for quick fights.

    I can see the new concept behind Thaum with directed flames being useful in such cases, except that a lot of other classes simply have much more mobility than wizards do, I would have to use an armored giant strider just to keep up with them. And Fireball's animation is too long, mobs dead before it fires, so we would have to rely on 50% crit chance w/ CC and constantly spam shift to keep up with the others.

    My point is, it's been my experience that in aoe situation wizard is definetly not out performing other classes (if it is, it's too random), sometimes we can catch up at the bosses, which means our ST dps is strong.

    Also, maybe consider removing tenebrous from the game, there' enough problems with balancing proc's adding this one is just another thing to worry about for each class, if anything it should be a weapon enchantment, like vorpal or bilethorn.

    Thx for all the efforts, just my 2 cents'es.

    I disagree on the point of mob HP, because it's such an oversimplification on multiple account. ToMM mobs, which is, just the ice, is balanced and LoMM mob HP's are balanced on the level the dungeon is supposed to be played, which is not really a true endgame, but the entrance to it. You can be overleveled for that content, and then of course the mobs will burn like flies. But to make the dungeon grindier for everyone (because it won't be harder, just more time to hit HP sponges) is just to waste everyone's time on it. And if you get through the mobs so fast, you probably burn the bosses way faster than they supposed to be (or your class has not that good of an ST than AoE).

    The mobs in this game have no general difficulty to them if you are running on a DPS level that can get through the bosses, so just getting them more HP does not really solve anything of interest. The only dungeon I remember where the mobs did made the dungeon harder was FBI, the giants before Hati. And that was actually helpful to assess the team's competence for the content. The giants were not able to be stunned, knocked and could kill you if you were in the red zones. When player's got overleveled for FBI, they got through them easily not because they had relatively shorter lifespan, but when their did hit the players, they survived it and got their HP back. They lost their difficulty as the players overprogressed them and giving them more HP won't help on that.

    The problem is not that mobs die too fast, but that they don't really doing anything when they are alive. Your whole problem with how AoE damage works boils down that mobs are just dummies to get hit, but they don't let everyone kick them fairly. But I think problem is that mobs are just dummies to get hit, which makes AoE builds more of a timesaver than a necessity. Essentially, mobs don't matter.

    And I think removing Tenebrous is just one more way to reduce class diversity, which already getting overly simplified and too similar all arcoss the board. It's overly used to be honest, but because it's only competition is 2400 power, which gets very insignificant after a certain treshold.
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 439 Arc User
    edited January 7

    I think mob's HP needs to be double or tripled in end game content (which is basically just LoMM/ToMM atm). You can balance classes as much as you want for a certain amount of dps over say 10 seconds, but if one class does a higher burst in 2 seconds, and another a more steady curve over that 10 seconds, the first will win out since mobs never live long enough. That's been my general conclusion while revisiting my Wizard. It relies on procs from SS which atm only has a 15% chance to proc on any given attack (50% * 30% = 15%). Warlocks can get CA on crits which is 50% chance, Wizard can choose Nightmare Wizardry, but that's only a 5% chance to proc on any given attack. While the fact that certain attacks tic multiple times does help, the chances are still relatively low for quick fights.

    I can see the new concept behind Thaum with directed flames being useful in such cases, except that a lot of other classes simply have much more mobility than wizards do, I would have to use an armored giant strider just to keep up with them. And Fireball's animation is too long, mobs dead before it fires, so we would have to rely on 50% crit chance w/ CC and constantly spam shift to keep up with the others.

    My point is, it's been my experience that in aoe situation wizard is definetly not out performing other classes (if it is, it's too random), sometimes we can catch up at the bosses, which means our ST dps is strong.

    Also, maybe consider removing tenebrous from the game, there' enough problems with balancing proc's adding this one is just another thing to worry about for each class, if anything it should be a weapon enchantment, like vorpal or bilethorn.

    Thx for all the efforts, just my 2 cents'es.

    I disagree on the point of mob HP, because it's such an oversimplification on multiple account. ToMM mobs, which is, just the ice, is balanced and LoMM mob HP's are balanced on the level the dungeon is supposed to be played, which is not really a true endgame, but the entrance to it. You can be overleveled for that content, and then of course the mobs will burn like flies. But to make the dungeon grindier for everyone (because it won't be harder, just more time to hit HP sponges) is just to waste everyone's time on it. And if you get through the mobs so fast, you probably burn the bosses way faster than they supposed to be (or your class has not that good of an ST than AoE).

    The mobs in this game have no general difficulty to them if you are running on a DPS level that can get through the bosses, so just getting them more HP does not really solve anything of interest. The only dungeon I remember where the mobs did made the dungeon harder was FBI, the giants before Hati. And that was actually helpful to assess the team's competence for the content. The giants were not able to be stunned, knocked and could kill you if you were in the red zones. When player's got overleveled for FBI, they got through them easily not because they had relatively shorter lifespan, but when their did hit the players, they survived it and got their HP back. They lost their difficulty as the players overprogressed them and giving them more HP won't help on that.

    The problem is not that mobs die too fast, but that they don't really doing anything when they are alive. Your whole problem with how AoE damage works boils down that mobs are just dummies to get hit, but they don't let everyone kick them fairly. But I think problem is that mobs are just dummies to get hit, which makes AoE builds more of a timesaver than a necessity. Essentially, mobs don't matter.

    And I think removing Tenebrous is just one more way to reduce class diversity, which already getting overly simplified and too similar all arcoss the board. It's overly used to be honest, but because it's only competition is 2400 power, which gets very insignificant after a certain treshold.
    Tenebrous doesn't add any diversity to classes either, it's just an extra proc which can be abused, like 109k powered soulweaver out dpsing everyone except hr's on aoe. I know it used to be bugged on warlock, and still might be, idk. Which is why I would just suggest removing it, similar to the way they are removing the functionality (bugged or not) that directed flames had, it breaks class balance. If you want more class diversity, add more paragon paths, power and feat selections, not an exogenous enchantment.

    To your point about mobs not mattering, that's exactly my point, they should have their hp increased. It's incredibly counter intuitive when LoMM is easier than VT. And if you really think mob's shouldn't matter and LoMM should be completed in 5 minutes, then just remove them from the dungeons entirely.

    What winds up happening is what's happening with thaum, balancing the class for content, instead of building content around class balance. It's like trying to put a square peg in a round hole.


    That aside, what I would want on Arcanist not considering the changes in play is this,

    1) Remove Avalanche and replace with Conduit of Ice.
    2) Give Entangling Force it's On Tab feature where it pulls in nearby mobs, and adds stacks of Arcane based on number of targets pulled.

  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,099 Arc User

    I think mob's HP needs to be double or tripled in end game content (which is basically just LoMM/ToMM atm). You can balance classes as much as you want for a certain amount of dps over say 10 seconds, but if one class does a higher burst in 2 seconds, and another a more steady curve over that 10 seconds, the first will win out since mobs never live long enough. That's been my general conclusion while revisiting my Wizard. It relies on procs from SS which atm only has a 15% chance to proc on any given attack (50% * 30% = 15%). Warlocks can get CA on crits which is 50% chance, Wizard can choose Nightmare Wizardry, but that's only a 5% chance to proc on any given attack. While the fact that certain attacks tic multiple times does help, the chances are still relatively low for quick fights.

    I can see the new concept behind Thaum with directed flames being useful in such cases, except that a lot of other classes simply have much more mobility than wizards do, I would have to use an armored giant strider just to keep up with them. And Fireball's animation is too long, mobs dead before it fires, so we would have to rely on 50% crit chance w/ CC and constantly spam shift to keep up with the others.

    My point is, it's been my experience that in aoe situation wizard is definetly not out performing other classes (if it is, it's too random), sometimes we can catch up at the bosses, which means our ST dps is strong.

    Also, maybe consider removing tenebrous from the game, there' enough problems with balancing proc's adding this one is just another thing to worry about for each class, if anything it should be a weapon enchantment, like vorpal or bilethorn.

    Thx for all the efforts, just my 2 cents'es.

    I disagree on the point of mob HP, because it's such an oversimplification on multiple account. ToMM mobs, which is, just the ice, is balanced and LoMM mob HP's are balanced on the level the dungeon is supposed to be played, which is not really a true endgame, but the entrance to it. You can be overleveled for that content, and then of course the mobs will burn like flies. But to make the dungeon grindier for everyone (because it won't be harder, just more time to hit HP sponges) is just to waste everyone's time on it. And if you get through the mobs so fast, you probably burn the bosses way faster than they supposed to be (or your class has not that good of an ST than AoE).

    The mobs in this game have no general difficulty to them if you are running on a DPS level that can get through the bosses, so just getting them more HP does not really solve anything of interest. The only dungeon I remember where the mobs did made the dungeon harder was FBI, the giants before Hati. And that was actually helpful to assess the team's competence for the content. The giants were not able to be stunned, knocked and could kill you if you were in the red zones. When player's got overleveled for FBI, they got through them easily not because they had relatively shorter lifespan, but when their did hit the players, they survived it and got their HP back. They lost their difficulty as the players overprogressed them and giving them more HP won't help on that.

    The problem is not that mobs die too fast, but that they don't really doing anything when they are alive. Your whole problem with how AoE damage works boils down that mobs are just dummies to get hit, but they don't let everyone kick them fairly. But I think problem is that mobs are just dummies to get hit, which makes AoE builds more of a timesaver than a necessity. Essentially, mobs don't matter.

    And I think removing Tenebrous is just one more way to reduce class diversity, which already getting overly simplified and too similar all arcoss the board. It's overly used to be honest, but because it's only competition is 2400 power, which gets very insignificant after a certain treshold.
    Actually some mobs in the first dungeons mattered a lot. Illithid Scourges in Dread Vault, Succubi in Mad Dragon's Lair, pretty much everything in Castle Never, archers, Witherers in Malabog... The fact that people had to deal with mobs that could stunlock you, could fully heal the boss, or take down the tank with ranged attacks made the game much more interesting. The pace was slower but every fight was more meaningful. Now a good team nukes all mobs and burns through bosses. It's not as bad as the end of mod 5 but could still be improved.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • bifflincultebifflinculte Member Posts: 74 Arc User

    My point is, it's been my experience that in aoe situation wizard is definetly not out performing other classes (if it is, it's too random), sometimes we can catch up at the bosses, which means our ST dps is strong.

    Actually, wizards have less aoe dps than any other dps class. Arcanist has slightly less aoe dps, but it's very random because of Storm Spell and of course Nightmare Wizardry. Arcanist is best paragon for boss fights (without adds), obviously. But that's all.

    Thaumaturge has terrible aoe dps: yesterday I ran Spellplague with a Rogue, his dps was twice as much as mine. Thaumaturge is just bad. During mod 16, it used to be best dps paragon (accidently...), after all smolder nerfs/bugs it's the worst. Even Fireball isn't good (long cast, effect area too small, average magnitude and not able to add smolder correctly).
    The only good feat is Shatter Strike. Fanning the Flame and Ice Storm are useless. Combustion Action is a joke passive power. With planned rework of Directed Flames, Conduct of Ice will become completly useless as well.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 399 Arc User
    Other than Wizard AOE, i think the dev's should consider just balancing ST dps for the other classes. All the non-meta classes are perfectly fine with their aoe.

    I don't know if the dev's will reach to this point but i have mentioned some changes previously to arbiter.

    We have 2 major bugs in TOMM. The 1mnute Perfect balance bug and the Prophet of Doom procing whenever halaster teleports. Fixing them would be a huge help although our dps more or less will not change.

    Other changes which could make arbiter more forgiving is to allow us to maintain our PB stacks even after death. Maybe allow dailies and POD to proc Sudden verdict and Perfect balance? Again, very simple changes but dps wise, arbiter is sitting in a comfortable place. Just need help with gameplay.
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 333 Arc User
    edited January 7

    I think mob's HP needs to be double or tripled in end game content (which is basically just LoMM/ToMM atm). You can balance classes as much as you want for a certain amount of dps over say 10 seconds, but if one class does a higher burst in 2 seconds, and another a more steady curve over that 10 seconds, the first will win out since mobs never live long enough. That's been my general conclusion while revisiting my Wizard. It relies on procs from SS which atm only has a 15% chance to proc on any given attack (50% * 30% = 15%). Warlocks can get CA on crits which is 50% chance, Wizard can choose Nightmare Wizardry, but that's only a 5% chance to proc on any given attack. While the fact that certain attacks tic multiple times does help, the chances are still relatively low for quick fights.

    I can see the new concept behind Thaum with directed flames being useful in such cases, except that a lot of other classes simply have much more mobility than wizards do, I would have to use an armored giant strider just to keep up with them. And Fireball's animation is too long, mobs dead before it fires, so we would have to rely on 50% crit chance w/ CC and constantly spam shift to keep up with the others.

    My point is, it's been my experience that in aoe situation wizard is definetly not out performing other classes (if it is, it's too random), sometimes we can catch up at the bosses, which means our ST dps is strong.

    Also, maybe consider removing tenebrous from the game, there' enough problems with balancing proc's adding this one is just another thing to worry about for each class, if anything it should be a weapon enchantment, like vorpal or bilethorn.

    Thx for all the efforts, just my 2 cents'es.

    I disagree on the point of mob HP, because it's such an oversimplification on multiple account. ToMM mobs, which is, just the ice, is balanced and LoMM mob HP's are balanced on the level the dungeon is supposed to be played, which is not really a true endgame, but the entrance to it. You can be overleveled for that content, and then of course the mobs will burn like flies. But to make the dungeon grindier for everyone (because it won't be harder, just more time to hit HP sponges) is just to waste everyone's time on it. And if you get through the mobs so fast, you probably burn the bosses way faster than they supposed to be (or your class has not that good of an ST than AoE).

    The mobs in this game have no general difficulty to them if you are running on a DPS level that can get through the bosses, so just getting them more HP does not really solve anything of interest. The only dungeon I remember where the mobs did made the dungeon harder was FBI, the giants before Hati. And that was actually helpful to assess the team's competence for the content. The giants were not able to be stunned, knocked and could kill you if you were in the red zones. When player's got overleveled for FBI, they got through them easily not because they had relatively shorter lifespan, but when their did hit the players, they survived it and got their HP back. They lost their difficulty as the players overprogressed them and giving them more HP won't help on that.

    The problem is not that mobs die too fast, but that they don't really doing anything when they are alive. Your whole problem with how AoE damage works boils down that mobs are just dummies to get hit, but they don't let everyone kick them fairly. But I think problem is that mobs are just dummies to get hit, which makes AoE builds more of a timesaver than a necessity. Essentially, mobs don't matter.

    And I think removing Tenebrous is just one more way to reduce class diversity, which already getting overly simplified and too similar all arcoss the board. It's overly used to be honest, but because it's only competition is 2400 power, which gets very insignificant after a certain treshold.
    Tenebrous doesn't add any diversity to classes either, it's just an extra proc which can be abused, like 109k powered soulweaver out dpsing everyone except hr's on aoe. I know it used to be bugged on warlock, and still might be, idk. Which is why I would just suggest removing it, similar to the way they are removing the functionality (bugged or not) that directed flames had, it breaks class balance. If you want more class diversity, add more paragon paths, power and feat selections, not an exogenous enchantment.

    To your point about mobs not mattering, that's exactly my point, they should have their hp increased. It's incredibly counter intuitive when LoMM is easier than VT. And if you really think mob's shouldn't matter and LoMM should be completed in 5 minutes, then just remove them from the dungeons entirely.

    What winds up happening is what's happening with thaum, balancing the class for content, instead of building content around class balance. It's like trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

    That aside, what I would want on Arcanist not considering the changes in play is this,

    1) Remove Avalanche and replace with Conduit of Ice.
    2) Give Entangling Force it's On Tab feature where it pulls in nearby mobs, and adds stacks of Arcane based on number of targets pulled.
    About the Tenebrous, in the current form it does not, because it's brokenly powerful. I think Tenebrous should be like 0.02% of HP per Rank (So, 0.3% of your HP on Rank 15), but uncapped, so it will be just an enchant, but it would have a buildaround option for tanks or classes that proc fast.

    On the HP, you missed the whole point. Mob should matter, but they don't and getting them more HP just makes people bored of killing them longer. LoMM is a 10 minute dungeon dragged for 15 more minute by menial mobkillling and the only thing more HP achieves is +10 more minute of a trivial task. The whole problem is that because mobs are not a threat or challenging that grinding them down is a waste of time. And you want to waste more time by making them not more difficult, but the easy thing to last longer.

    1) I agree that we need CoI on both paragon, but I'd kick out Imprisonment. It should've gone with mod16, but instead it got overhauled for... something. Maybe PvP-ers actually use this, I don't know. Or just give all classes +1 encounter per paragon. But Avalanche is actually useful, because Repel on Tab is just to annoy melee classes. But it actually deals too much damage to not annoy on them, sorry.

    2) I think that they learned pre-mod6 that letting players pull mobs together and nuke them is a bad idea. I would like them to fix the point of CC in this game, but... there's a lot of other things they need to fix first.

  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 333 Arc User

    I think mob's HP needs to be double or tripled in end game content (which is basically just LoMM/ToMM atm). You can balance classes as much as you want for a certain amount of dps over say 10 seconds, but if one class does a higher burst in 2 seconds, and another a more steady curve over that 10 seconds, the first will win out since mobs never live long enough. That's been my general conclusion while revisiting my Wizard. It relies on procs from SS which atm only has a 15% chance to proc on any given attack (50% * 30% = 15%). Warlocks can get CA on crits which is 50% chance, Wizard can choose Nightmare Wizardry, but that's only a 5% chance to proc on any given attack. While the fact that certain attacks tic multiple times does help, the chances are still relatively low for quick fights.

    I can see the new concept behind Thaum with directed flames being useful in such cases, except that a lot of other classes simply have much more mobility than wizards do, I would have to use an armored giant strider just to keep up with them. And Fireball's animation is too long, mobs dead before it fires, so we would have to rely on 50% crit chance w/ CC and constantly spam shift to keep up with the others.

    My point is, it's been my experience that in aoe situation wizard is definetly not out performing other classes (if it is, it's too random), sometimes we can catch up at the bosses, which means our ST dps is strong.

    Also, maybe consider removing tenebrous from the game, there' enough problems with balancing proc's adding this one is just another thing to worry about for each class, if anything it should be a weapon enchantment, like vorpal or bilethorn.

    Thx for all the efforts, just my 2 cents'es.

    I disagree on the point of mob HP, because it's such an oversimplification on multiple account. ToMM mobs, which is, just the ice, is balanced and LoMM mob HP's are balanced on the level the dungeon is supposed to be played, which is not really a true endgame, but the entrance to it. You can be overleveled for that content, and then of course the mobs will burn like flies. But to make the dungeon grindier for everyone (because it won't be harder, just more time to hit HP sponges) is just to waste everyone's time on it. And if you get through the mobs so fast, you probably burn the bosses way faster than they supposed to be (or your class has not that good of an ST than AoE).

    The mobs in this game have no general difficulty to them if you are running on a DPS level that can get through the bosses, so just getting them more HP does not really solve anything of interest. The only dungeon I remember where the mobs did made the dungeon harder was FBI, the giants before Hati. And that was actually helpful to assess the team's competence for the content. The giants were not able to be stunned, knocked and could kill you if you were in the red zones. When player's got overleveled for FBI, they got through them easily not because they had relatively shorter lifespan, but when their did hit the players, they survived it and got their HP back. They lost their difficulty as the players overprogressed them and giving them more HP won't help on that.

    The problem is not that mobs die too fast, but that they don't really doing anything when they are alive. Your whole problem with how AoE damage works boils down that mobs are just dummies to get hit, but they don't let everyone kick them fairly. But I think problem is that mobs are just dummies to get hit, which makes AoE builds more of a timesaver than a necessity. Essentially, mobs don't matter.

    And I think removing Tenebrous is just one more way to reduce class diversity, which already getting overly simplified and too similar all arcoss the board. It's overly used to be honest, but because it's only competition is 2400 power, which gets very insignificant after a certain treshold.
    Actually some mobs in the first dungeons mattered a lot. Illithid Scourges in Dread Vault, Succubi in Mad Dragon's Lair, pretty much everything in Castle Never, archers, Witherers in Malabog... The fact that people had to deal with mobs that could stunlock you, could fully heal the boss, or take down the tank with ranged attacks made the game much more interesting. The pace was slower but every fight was more meaningful. Now a good team nukes all mobs and burns through bosses. It's not as bad as the end of mod 5 but could still be improved.
    I did not play before mod6, only heard the legends of pushing bosses down ledges and the CC pushing and nuking and why the CW dailies got capped on how much mobs can they pull. I said the FBI, because i played that, but if it was like that, good :D
  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Member Posts: 1,654 Arc User


    1. Low Divinity regeneration, Divine Champion shortage

    2. It should be doing more, doing better. And not totally different playstyle than on Solo content.

    3. RNG elements should be removed for tanks. You are responsable.

    4. Where is the Paladin? The Auras seem to be leftovers. So weak, only alibi function. There are no Damage auras. Should it not be better to dodge the hit than to get the hit? (Aura of Vengeance) Again active vs passive Playstyle.

    5. Divine Palisade. You can remove the Group Heal. The cone behind you is in reality a nightmare. Your party is doing what they would do alone. They run. It's impossible to help with these heals and from Paladin point of view, you're only getting mad try to help and see only headless chickens running. Again: Divine Champion shortage. You see it rare. If you try to heal with Divine Palisade I saw it often they run from you like "WTF IS THAT" Cone -> Radius or remove and only for the Justicar.

    6. If we cannot maintain Divine Champion, we are kicked around. Active Playstyle is impossible and stressfull. This needs to be reworked.



    I play now for 1 month. As I saw the videos before Mod 16 I thought: I want to play this. As I saw the Divine Champion first, I thought: YEAH I am Holy man. Huge fun. Now I ended playing Oathkeeper. Justicar/Tank in Neverwinter = Stress. Thanks for reading.

    1 - I agree that divinity can be a hassle to manage in hard content. But that's what adjusting is for. Do you want to see in Divine Champion for 20 seconds straight?
    2 - Not sure what this references
    3 - RNG elements can be removed easily. Don't rely on Bane. Use other or multiple powers for mob aggro.
    4 - Auras are definitely lackluster but you're spreading misleading info. There is an aura that increases your damage, as your stamina decreases. You probably want an Aura that gives you a damage buff just for turning it on?
    5 - I've never even used this. Group heal? Any heal on a tank? Well that's going to interfere with your main mission....tanking.
    6 - Playing pally is one of the least stressful toons to me (outside of ToMM). I play every class and have been playing for close to 5 years. It's always been one of the, if not the, least stressful classes in game.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 559 Arc User
    edited January 8

    I think mob's HP needs to be double or tripled in end game content (which is basically just LoMM/ToMM atm). You can balance classes as much as you want for a certain amount of dps over say 10 seconds, but if one class does a higher burst in 2 seconds, and another a more steady curve over that 10 seconds, the first will win out since mobs never live long enough. That's been my general conclusion while revisiting my Wizard. It relies on procs from SS which atm only has a 15% chance to proc on any given attack (50% * 30% = 15%). Warlocks can get CA on crits which is 50% chance, Wizard can choose Nightmare Wizardry, but that's only a 5% chance to proc on any given attack. While the fact that certain attacks tic multiple times does help, the chances are still relatively low for quick fights.

    I can see the new concept behind Thaum with directed flames being useful in such cases, except that a lot of other classes simply have much more mobility than wizards do, I would have to use an armored giant strider just to keep up with them. And Fireball's animation is too long, mobs dead before it fires, so we would have to rely on 50% crit chance w/ CC and constantly spam shift to keep up with the others.

    My point is, it's been my experience that in aoe situation wizard is definetly not out performing other classes (if it is, it's too random), sometimes we can catch up at the bosses, which means our ST dps is strong.

    Also, maybe consider removing tenebrous from the game, there' enough problems with balancing proc's adding this one is just another thing to worry about for each class, if anything it should be a weapon enchantment, like vorpal or bilethorn.

    Thx for all the efforts, just my 2 cents'es.

    I disagree on the point of mob HP, because it's such an oversimplification on multiple account. ToMM mobs, which is, just the ice, is balanced and LoMM mob HP's are balanced on the level the dungeon is supposed to be played, which is not really a true endgame, but the entrance to it. You can be overleveled for that content, and then of course the mobs will burn like flies. But to make the dungeon grindier for everyone (because it won't be harder, just more time to hit HP sponges) is just to waste everyone's time on it. And if you get through the mobs so fast, you probably burn the bosses way faster than they supposed to be (or your class has not that good of an ST than AoE).

    The mobs in this game have no general difficulty to them if you are running on a DPS level that can get through the bosses, so just getting them more HP does not really solve anything of interest. The only dungeon I remember where the mobs did made the dungeon harder was FBI, the giants before Hati. And that was actually helpful to assess the team's competence for the content. The giants were not able to be stunned, knocked and could kill you if you were in the red zones. When player's got overleveled for FBI, they got through them easily not because they had relatively shorter lifespan, but when their did hit the players, they survived it and got their HP back. They lost their difficulty as the players overprogressed them and giving them more HP won't help on that.

    The problem is not that mobs die too fast, but that they don't really doing anything when they are alive. Your whole problem with how AoE damage works boils down that mobs are just dummies to get hit, but they don't let everyone kick them fairly. But I think problem is that mobs are just dummies to get hit, which makes AoE builds more of a timesaver than a necessity. Essentially, mobs don't matter.

    And I think removing Tenebrous is just one more way to reduce class diversity, which already getting overly simplified and too similar all arcoss the board. It's overly used to be honest, but because it's only competition is 2400 power, which gets very insignificant after a certain treshold.
    Tenebrous doesn't add any diversity to classes either, it's just an extra proc which can be abused, like 109k powered soulweaver out dpsing everyone except hr's on aoe. I know it used to be bugged on warlock, and still might be, idk. Which is why I would just suggest removing it, similar to the way they are removing the functionality (bugged or not) that directed flames had, it breaks class balance. If you want more class diversity, add more paragon paths, power and feat selections, not an exogenous enchantment.

    To your point about mobs not mattering, that's exactly my point, they should have their hp increased. It's incredibly counter intuitive when LoMM is easier than VT. And if you really think mob's shouldn't matter and LoMM should be completed in 5 minutes, then just remove them from the dungeons entirely.

    What winds up happening is what's happening with thaum, balancing the class for content, instead of building content around class balance. It's like trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

    That aside, what I would want on Arcanist not considering the changes in play is this,

    1) Remove Avalanche and replace with Conduit of Ice.
    2) Give Entangling Force it's On Tab feature where it pulls in nearby mobs, and adds stacks of Arcane based on number of targets pulled.
    About the Tenebrous, in the current form it does not, because it's brokenly powerful. I think Tenebrous should be like 0.02% of HP per Rank (So, 0.3% of your HP on Rank 15), but uncapped, so it will be just an enchant, but it would have a buildaround option for tanks or classes that proc fast.

    On the HP, you missed the whole point. Mob should matter, but they don't and getting them more HP just makes people bored of killing them longer. LoMM is a 10 minute dungeon dragged for 15 more minute by menial mobkillling and the only thing more HP achieves is +10 more minute of a trivial task. The whole problem is that because mobs are not a threat or challenging that grinding them down is a waste of time. And you want to waste more time by making them not more difficult, but the easy thing to last longer.

    1) I agree that we need CoI on both paragon, but I'd kick out Imprisonment. It should've gone with mod16, but instead it got overhauled for... something. Maybe PvP-ers actually use this, I don't know. Or just give all classes +1 encounter per paragon. But Avalanche is actually useful, because Repel on Tab is just to annoy melee classes. But it actually deals too much damage to not annoy on them, sorry.

    2) I think that they learned pre-mod6 that letting players pull mobs together and nuke them is a bad idea. I would like them to fix the point of CC in this game, but... there's a lot of other things they need to fix first.

    RE: Tenebrous

    MANY players own and paid for several max rank tenebrous enchantments. To remove it (if it were bugged or not) is no more fair than removing Radiant Enchantment.

    Currently, only one slotted Tenebrous enchantment works. Additional ones do nothing. If necessary, fix this and make it balanced. A Tenebrous should be on par with Radiant Enchantment overall, but should give a situational niche advantage which makes it desireable... so that some will want it but not everyone does. As a singular enchantment right now, its a little OP, but its nothing thats gonna change the leaderboard as quoted above.

    My advice: Leave Tenebrous alone. Revise the tooltip to actual effect. If necessary... rebalance it, but certainly don't remove it.
  • martins#2911 martins Member Posts: 51 Arc User
    [Soul Scorch] mechanics need to be changed.

    The magnitude is very low, the percentage of most damage when we are at the maximum of Soul Spark is very low as well. In addition that every time you use Soul Scorch you get locked for a long time, in Tomm if you use Soul Scorch before any mechanics you are likely to die, because it gets locked.

    All other classes the "TAB" is much better than the SW.

    Sw needs a change in this mechanic.
  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    Soul Scorch magnitude is fine, with 18 sparks it deals 162 magnitude as 1 hit, then a further 162 magnitude over 6 seconds to each target in 15feet. so even just as single target, its total is 324magnitude. 340magnitude if you take double scorch, which everyone does anyway.

    The problem with soul scorch is its not generating action points nor is it proccing weapon enchantments. It is also classed as an encounter power ( it procs bloodlust) , it doesn't have a curse consume/synergy yet it doesn't give lesser curse, which it should.
    any encounter that doesn't have a curse mechanic is supposed to give lesser curse.

    It has a cast time of 1 second, and I believe the new AP system is 1000/60 x cast time, which means Soul scorch should be giving 17ap, or 1.7% each cast, and its not

    I don't like the fact you lose percentage damage buff to cast it, so yes it would be much better if you got a damage buff for casting SS, 5% for 10seconds or something, but its still better DPS to use soul scorch, than to sit on sparks

    The only change I would want to SS is that it would summon a soul puppet /stack soul investiture instead of relying on hadars grasp, since SS is the default encounter we have, regardless of feat choices/encounter choices

  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,179 Arc User
    FEEDBACK: mandatory reset?!

    Why is my ranger getting a mandatory respec? Frak. Glad I stumbled across this now before it went live.
    Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X
    Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
    Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
    Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
    The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
  • douglasopferbeckdouglasopferbeck Member Posts: 50 Arc User
    > @noworries#8859 said:
    > Creeping Death has been brought up a few times in this thread, while there will be patch notes as we get more builds onto preview which will cover bug fixes, this one was both brought up enough in this thread and is changing enough to get a specific call out.
    >
    > Creeping Death was never going to work ideally for what it was attempting to do. I did experiment with the power for a while before the holidays before deciding to build it a bit differently which would allow it to function properly.
    >
    > The change is that Creeping Death will deal 10 magnitude damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds and it will stack 10 times. This will allow the power to continue to do damage while fighting a target which has it applied already and allow for a player to keep it at max stacks doing 100 magnitude every 2 seconds as long as they are continuing to fight the target.

    As long as that magnitude damage is fully buffed like bilethorn procs, that is actually the best warlock news I have heard in some time! Please keep up the ideas!
  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    the good news

    Creeping death works and scales with power and CA

    The bad news,

    Creeping death cannot crit
    after some brief testing it was about 8-9% of my damage on single target, so not sure if its better than executioners gift, definitely not for AoE, takes too long to do any real damage

    Also tyrannical curse still bugged
    Brood of Hadar minions are still bugged/not working as exepcted
    Eldritch blast 3rd hit is still bugged
    Soul scorch is still not giving action points or lesser curse
    Lesser curse damage is still garbage
    Hand of blight (ranged) still only generating 1 soul spark every 4 hits
    Deadly curse isnt proccing for every curse application

    The buffs are adding about 4-5% extra dps
    At wills got roughly a 10% buff, which is about 1- 1.5% increase overall
    Killing flames- no change
    Soul scorch - no change
    Hellfire ring got a 15% buff, , which is about 10% of our damage, 1.5% increase overall
    Hadars Grasp got a 15% buff, which is again about 10-12% of our damage, 1.5% increase
    Lesser curse - may aswell be zero

    So best case scenario we got a 5% buff , really isn't enough.


  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    Eldritch Blast - 35magnitude, 70 magnitude final hit (fix this)
    Hellish rebuke - 50magnitude, 15magnitude DoT, 25magnitude rebuke
    Hand of Blight - 40magnitude, 60 magnitude ranged ( fix the spark generation for ranged, 1 per hit same as melee)

    Soul puppet - Lasts 30 seconds, and deals 100% critical severity

    Soul scorch 10 per spark +1.5magnitude per tick - max 18 sparks 180+27x6 DoT ticks 342 Magnitude total - 5% increase. also FIx the damn AP gain
    Killing Flames - 500-750 same
    Hellfire Ring - 150 Magnitude + 225 DoT ( 375 Magnitude Total) 7% increase
    Hadars Grasp - 250 Magnitude - 375Magnitude with Curse Consume 8% increase
    Vampiric Embrace - 330 Magnitude - and remove Temp hitpoints, its useless and cancels Paladin Temp Hitpoints. 20% increase
    Blades, 27.5magnitude per blade + 1blade every 2 seconds against cursed targets, ticks 11 times, 302.5 Magnitude total (385Magnitude against curse targets) 10% increase
    Fiery Bolt - 300 magnitude main target + 150magnitude AoE ( or just remove the 50% AoE penalty and leave at 200magnitude)

    Arms of Hadar -100 magnitude ( still garbage, needs a rework)
    Dreadtheft - 450magnitude ( still garbage needs a rework)
    Infernal Spheres, 50 per Sphere, increase radius to 15ft ( still Clunky/breaks/gets stuck, needs a rework)

    Curse Bite, 275 Magnitude - ( needs a rework, charges can get double consumed, each charge recharges consecutively not independently, the recharge does not benefit from Wrath of Souls or Soul Spark Recovery, so both charges take 26seconds to recharge if used back to back, very bad design honestly, better to have 1 use with a proper Cooldown of 13seconds that can be shortened Via CD reduction Feats and Shirt Equip Bonus, like every other encounter.... it wont really effect burst AoE, since you rarely get chance to use both charges, but would make a big difference on longer fights for though who wanted to use this on bosses)

    Tyrannical Curse 1000 magnitude - Fix the split damage, its still not scaling with armour penetration and accuracy, this has been bugged nearly a year now since Mod 16 preview, its been reported over and over, FFS fix the damn thing
    Accursed Souls - 900 magnitude - no change
    Gates of hell - still bad, no reason to use this instead of Accursed souls, does less damage, harder to position, costs the same AP
    Flames of Phlegethos - 1600 magnitude - because why the hell not. no one uses it anyway

    Brood Of Hadar - Please Fix this, or clarify what exactly it is supposed to do. The imps are VERY inconsistent, sometimes they bite, sometimes they melee and sometimes they range attack, all with totally different Values, which are not explained in the tooltip. Either this is intended, and its supposed to be a wildly inconsistent daily, OR you broke it badly, and the imps are only supposed to do 1 Bite each and then fade away, ( I hope the latter), then it would be as the tooltip states,600 Hit and 6x150magnitude bites, for a total of 1500, because currently, its a mess, sometimes the imps don't use bite at all.

    Class features - most need a rework/rethink


    Thanks for Redesigning Creeping Death, works nice, sad it cannot crit, but if that's a design issue, then the damage needs to be upped from 10 per stack to, 12 per stack. 120 every 2 seconds, this would put it around 10-11% total damage, which I think was the aim originally, (10% of each hit as a DoT) making it a Solid Counter to Executioners Gift, especially on Bosses

    Soul Desecration - needs a rework, 10% bonus puppet damage is a joke compared to risky investment, Something like, 7.5% bonus damage for the warlock while a puppet is active would be a good balance VS risky investment, since RI gives about a 10-12% damage buff at 5 stacks

    Power of the Nine Hells - Needs a rework, - 12 sparks after daily is garbage, since you want to be at 30sparks for max damage boost for a daily, so its a waste of a Feat point

    Parting Blasphemy is OK, but it would be nice if in addition, Lesser curse dealt its damage every second for 4 seconds, ( twice as fast) so there would be more natural PBs when curse drops off, currently PB is 4-5% on a boss, not even close to warlocks Curse which is just a flat 12% buff. This kind of change would bring them closer together as well as encouraging a different type of play, without using ACC, since you would want lesser curse to drop off regularly to trigger PB.

    Risky investment, is too slow to stack, currently takes about 70seconds to get to 5 stacks, and puppet disappears/gets killed all the time in ToMM, or pretty much any boss fight that has Cut scenes, its really punishing, Drop the stacks to 3, stick SI on soul scorch, and change the buff to 7/14/20% each stack.



    Bottom line, the current changes on preview are too timid, cant really afford baby steps anymore, its nearly a year since Mod16 preview, and the Gap between a top end Wizard, and a top end Warlock is at least 20%, and im not talking player VS player either skill VS skill, im talking statistical mathematical Maximum output. a 5% buff just wont cut the mustard.

    So Ignoring all the stuff that needs reworking, just the magnitude changes and the soul puppet change
    at wills, 2-3% total increase
    encounters - 4 highest 2-3% total increase
    Soul Puppet -1.5% - 2% increase
    Dailies - 1.5% to 2% increase overall.

    About 10% increase from what we currently have on live. Still not on the same level as wizards, rogues and rangers, but a lot closer than we are now, and that would give you time to actually rework stuff that needs it




  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 969 Arc User
    As my buddies with some brains ewilan and @reeper#9973 said, barbies are utterly awful.
    I stopped playing a year or two ago, and to this day I still see the balance issues that exist. Barbie tanks are meh, and you'd expect them to make up by being good DPS. Naw. By far the worst "DPS" class.
    One would assume devs would try to retain some players, but I guess that's not a good call when you have HAMSTER like planned obsolescence in there.

    I wish you luck. I wanted to come back, as my old guild is one of the most fun places, however @noworries#8859 the game is just... bad. Sorry mate.
  • kozi001kozi001 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 862 Arc User
    edited January 10
    Is some of the class balance changes hit preview yesterday?
Sign In or Register to comment.