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"The game is just not fun anymore"

hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,318 Arc User
edited December 2019 in General Discussion (PC)
Before I explain the title of the thread, a little explanation as to my perspective. I'm a guild leader. I never asked to be guild leader. Four years ago I was literally shanghaied into it and found out an hour after the fact. More than that, I'm the leader of the helm guild of our alliance. As such I need to be keenly aware of how our people are feeling and their morale.

I started to see this sentiment once Mod 16 launched, but things got really bad after Mod 17. Our participation absolutely cratered. Large numbers of players are on either temporary or permanent hiatus (it's hard to tell when you haven't seen some in many weeks). When people ARE on, the above sentiment is what I hear the most, worded in one form or another.

Now, another potential piece of evidence. Last week alone I was absolutely inundated with inquiries about bringing our guild into other alliances. I think I counted five separate inquiries. I politely rebuffed them all, but it warranted a short internal discussion on our side. Why the intense interest? What in blazes was going on? Our only explanation was that perhaps active participation is low everywhere and many guilds are hurting.

Devs, you have a major problem on your hands. People are demoralized and you need to do something about it.

I don't think there is any single cause, but I think it's safe to say that the overall push toward making the game harder is part of it. That's not exactly the right description, but the best way I can word it is that in the name of dungeon class balance you've made the solo experience much more tedious and frustrating for casual gamers.

I can't speak for other alliances, but mine doesn't have any hardcore players. I'm probably the most "hardcore" in the sole sense that I'm on every night, mainly because my role pretty much demands it. No one in our alliance is BiS. None of us are "this content is too easy" chest-thumpers. None of us are check-the-leaderboard-every-five-seconds PvP'ers. I'm not sure we even have any PvP'ers. We're mainly an older crowd. At 50, I'm one of the young whippersnappers. Our people have full-time jobs, families, and even other commitments beyond that. Some are caregivers, some are involved with charity. We've had more than our share of members with serious medical issues and we welcome them all. None are remotely what you would consider hard-core.

None are streamers or "content creators", though two of them are prolific Foundry authors. I've watched many of the Neverwinter streamers. They're BiS and they love dungeons. I get that. We are not them.

The vast majority of members I still see are expressing the same sentiment: what made the game fun prior to Mod 16 is gone and they've lost much of their desire to keep playing.

Before Mod 16, every Saturday without fail we would host the alliance at our stronghold for Dragonflight and Marauders. We always had a decent group of people show up, and we often held raffles for some of the people new to the game afterwards. The major draw, though, was simply that we all enjoyed each others' company. It was always fun. We've taken down as many as three dragons at a time, which was huge for us. Since Mod 17, though, that has completely stopped. I'm often the only one on nowadays. As far as I can tell, people are simply too demoralized with the general gameplay experience.

I don't like seeing people who have become my friends demoralized. The reason our alliance was so tight-knit over the past 8-10 mods was precisely because we were so much alike and got along so well. What has happened since April has been heartbreaking, and I don't see an end to it.

Devs. You need to fix this. Please.
Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X
Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
Post edited by hustin1 on
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Comments

  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 677 Arc User
    > @dread4moor said:
    > Took cannot argue with your theme.
    > Took was, in your terms, a "hardcore" NW player, playing 3-4 hours per day 6-7 days per week since 2013.
    >
    > Then Mod16 castrated Took's beloved Fighter Tank (R.I.P., Bowser IV).
    > With Took's main toon unplayable (f_ckin' POTTY SQUAT) NW was not fun anymore. NW has not been Took's main game since then.
    >
    > Took tried to fall in love w NW again, did early preview for Mod 17. But... one room boss battle and repurposed MEs.
    > Meh.
    > TOOM has clever mechanics. But it is so bis gear heavy and class unbalanced that only one Took Toon can even get into a party...
    > And that Took (devout cleric) is BORING AF to play.
    >
    > Took hasn't quit NW. But Took just doesn't bother to login often.
    > Because, as OP says, it's just not very fun for The Took.
    >

    I'm afraid you are mistaken, master Took! The spirit of your Bowser IV is very much alive in one of the most fun to play "builds" for the vanguard, it even works great in Module 18 content 👍
    Elite Whaleboy
  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,081 Arc User
    When I first started Neverwinter, I wasn't able to run the latest content straight away. I had to build up to it, I was pretty much running a mod behind. It gave me something to aim for, something to strive for.

    New players should have heaps to do like grinding out boons on lower level campaigns. Grinding AD for enchants etc.

    I'm not sure that it should be - start up, get to Lvl 80 in 2 days, slot some free R8s and then straight into the latest and hardest content with minimal problems.

    However, I greatly dislike M16 and M17. If I never see one of those ME, WE, FEs things again, it will be too soon.

    and gimme back my lunging strike :)
  • prethenprethen Member Posts: 137 Arc User
    Will the Devs even see this thread?

    I hate the frickin' constant grinding and I largely try to avoid it. I've managed to get through one whole set of RE\WE\FE to get a nice item at the end from Mod 17. But, I don't think I want to do it again. It's a lot of work and it gets quite tedious.

    Right now I'm doing the SKT and Chult grinds to get the remaining boons and open up the keys. But, I have to admit that I'm not very enthusiastic about it. There's a good chance if I step away from the game for a little while due to boredom, I step away for good.

    BTW, I'm curious about something from other folks here. Does this game really feel like D&D? Maybe in terms of story and/or creatures, but otherwise it appears like any other console-like RPG to me. It's D&D flavor-like, but I don't really feel I'm using any sort of D&D tactics/strategy. Spells and attacks are limited to just a narrow band of defenses and attacks to deal with hoards of creatures. I long for the days of Baldur's Gate, et al (and yes, I can't wait for the upcoming release of BG3!).
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,055 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    lantern22 said:

    When I first started Neverwinter, I wasn't able to run the latest content straight away. I had to build up to it, I was pretty much running a mod behind. It gave me something to aim for, something to strive for.

    New players should have heaps to do like grinding out boons on lower level campaigns. Grinding AD for enchants etc.

    I'm not sure that it should be - start up, get to Lvl 80 in 2 days, slot some free R8s and then straight into the latest and hardest content with minimal problems.

    However, I greatly dislike M16 and M17. If I never see one of those ME, WE, FEs things again, it will be too soon.

    and gimme back my lunging strike :)

    Same here. When I started NW (mod 3), I expected at least grinding a year before getting anywhere. I always had something to do everyday. I set up the whole infrastructure and planning to finance the adventurers. When I ran out of thing to do, I created a new character with a new class. Now, I play 6 characters who all did all the campaigns (except some did not finish SKT). Now, sadly, I just run out of thing I want to do.
  • blargskullblargskull Member Posts: 289 Arc User
    @hustin1 well written.

    It would appear to me NW D&D appeals to the adult crowd. I know friends who play and people who use to play, I met them in person. I traveled a lot. Currently unemployed, but camping out on my friend's sofa, or in the parents attic seeking work. As for my age demographic, I am not quite 30 yet. I was hanging with the RP crowd but it looks like they moved on to higher grounds. I was out late this weekend playing D&D with a group at the local hobby shop. I jumped on here to look at how the game is looking for January. I might not stop in to grab my freebies at the end of the month, they were mostly the same old stuff we get. Almost like someone gives you ice cream and all they ever do is offer you vanilla. It isn't about the value, it is about the usage, all that free junk keeps stacking up. I stopped in the Winter Fest and same stuff, but they no longer offer my mount, same old thing there as well. With nothing else to do, I return to my job search. Have a Happy Festival of Lights everyone.

  • thany#4351 thany Member Posts: 173 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    I still don't get it why I must collect boons again if i've got all boons grinding by myself. They should be account "unlocked" if they're collected by grinding. Well, yes there're some token with some "discount" so i can help myself with my 2nd, 3rd, 4th... "toon", but it's just not "that". And yes, I can buy campaign with AD. And yes, and yes... Well, I would like to try new characters, invest ih them, but I don't want to go through grinding boons again or even buy something what i got, but didn't get by playing for hundreds of hours. That is just too much. So I'am here while I enjoy playing my fighter. After that i don't have intend to grind for hundreds or even th. of hours to get boons again. So it'll be it. This is what is not funny for me as a new player. I'll probably get to that what you're writting about.
  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Member Posts: 821 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    I'm still burned out from the last cta.

    Three years now and I've never participated in the winter whatever because I'm always burned out by the end of summer. Right now it's a real drag just logging on to invoke and collect my key. Last year I missed out on hundreds of keys cause I just couldn't be bothered at all.

    To be fair though, I feel like this with any mmo. Gave Destiny 2 a go a couple weeks back, and I'm already sick of it - only go back now and then to hear Lance Reddick talk.
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User

    Summary: Yawnnnnn.....Zzzzzzz

    Conclusion: What's the point?!

    If you have not seen it, then I can't explain it to you. ;)
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User

    Something is not right in the kingdom of Neverwinter.

    I am having a bit hard time to pinpoint what the actual problem is. It is not really the nerfs, the nerfs would make some disgruntled players leave, but if they were successful the rest of the players would be happy. It also is not the grinding, grinding is and will always be part of an MMORPG, if you cannot stomach the grind, find another game type. It is just not possible for the devs to produce content fast enough to avoid grinding.. but it must be grinding with a reward and a purpose.

    Some thoughts on what is missing now:
    * Lack of progression - you get your kit from UM and bang, you are more or less good good to go for everything in game but LoMM and ToMM. There is not much to work towards, and for instance the progression ladder that is boons is completely sidelined. And that progression must be enforced in the sense that you need a certain IL to be admitted to zones so it is not other players that kicks you out(that creates bad feelings). Most admission IL requirements today are way too low.
    * Lack of interdependency - since most buffs went away, players to a very little extent depends on each other. This is most noticeable for tanks and healers.. tanks dont get to play their roles since people run ahead, and healers are really not that much needed. The defenses for the dps classes should probably be bumped down significantly to make the group dynamics work better. It will be interesting to see how the rating bump for 18k to 35k will work out. Maybe introduce a few -20k defense +10k power items :)
    * Tomm was a disaster. It obviously is a big hit for the most hardcore small group, but for most players it is beyond reach. And that means there is a small group of players that enjoys a 20% dps advantage that the rest never can catch up to. I was expecting weapons with mod 18 that would match the base damage of ToMM weapons but with less effects, lessening the gap somewhat. As it is, the progress-to-BiS game is meaningless for all but the few hardcore ToMM runners, as the weapons will always mean you are far behind no matter how well geared you are otherwise. ToMM has placed the goalpost too far out and turned off and away a far bigger almost-BiS playermass than the relatively small group that is running it.

    The 'feeling' in the old game and with the old areas was completely wrecked up with mod 16 and the failed experiments with scaling. They failed to understand that yes, people want challenging content, but they also want content they are done with to be easy and done with.

    The big fundamental problem seems to be that NWs dev team has been seriously reduced, so they have a very reduced ability to make things now. Mod 18 was disappointingly small even if they spent 2 months extra on making it.

    I agree with you except for the lack of interdependancy. Yesterday I spent some time on preview hunting with my HR for named monsters in the new area. After a while I teamed up with a tank Fighter and everything became much smoother. Also in dungeons you pretty much need the trinity, while in the past with lifesteal DPS were much more independant
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,173 Arc User
    edited December 2019

    Something is not right in the kingdom of Neverwinter.

    I am having a bit hard time to pinpoint what the actual problem is. It is not really the nerfs, the nerfs would make some disgruntled players leave, but if they were successful the rest of the players would be happy. It also is not the grinding, grinding is and will always be part of an MMORPG, if you cannot stomach the grind, find another game type. It is just not possible for the devs to produce content fast enough to avoid grinding.. but it must be grinding with a reward and a purpose.

    Some thoughts on what is missing now:
    * Lack of progression - you get your kit from UM and bang, you are more or less good good to go for everything in game but LoMM and ToMM. There is not much to work towards, and for instance the progression ladder that is boons is completely sidelined. And that progression must be enforced in the sense that you need a certain IL to be admitted to zones so it is not other players that kicks you out(that creates bad feelings). Most admission IL requirements today are way too low.
    * Lack of interdependency - since most buffs went away, players to a very little extent depends on each other. This is most noticeable for tanks and healers.. tanks dont get to play their roles since people run ahead, and healers are really not that much needed. The defenses for the dps classes should probably be bumped down significantly to make the group dynamics work better. It will be interesting to see how the rating bump for 18k to 35k will work out. Maybe introduce a few -20k defense +10k power items :)
    * Tomm was a disaster. It obviously is a big hit for the most hardcore small group, but for most players it is beyond reach. And that means there is a small group of players that enjoys a 20% dps advantage that the rest never can catch up to. I was expecting weapons with mod 18 that would match the base damage of ToMM weapons but with less effects, lessening the gap somewhat. As it is, the progress-to-BiS game is meaningless for all but the few hardcore ToMM runners, as the weapons will always mean you are far behind no matter how well geared you are otherwise. ToMM has placed the goalpost too far out and turned off and away a far bigger almost-BiS playermass than the relatively small group that is running it.
    * Lack of challenge - there really is not much challenge progression in game: You go Completely trivial -> Lomm(that is not that hard) -> ToMM(beyond reach for most, because it needs a regular group, voice, and very high gear requirements)

    The 'feeling' in the old game and with the old areas was completely wrecked up with mod 16 and the failed experiments with scaling. They failed to understand that yes, people want challenging content, but they also want content they are done with to be easy and done with.

    The big fundamental problem seems to be that NWs dev team has been seriously reduced, so they have a very reduced ability to make things now. Mod 18 was disappointingly small even if they spent 2 months extra on making it.

    I will actually sum up my thoughts by giving Cryptic a few free suggestions indicated above:
    * Make the boons progression worthwhile again by at least doubling the IL gained from boons.
    * Increase the admission IL requirement for dungeons by much more than what the IL increase from boons indicate, create a progression ladder of dungeon access. Most dungeons can have a 2-3k requirement IL increase as they are. You can also increase the rating of a few dungeons to make a more defined progression ladder.
    * Make roles more defined to establish more interdependency in dungeons. Take away some dps class defenses, dps class defenses are too high in the dungeons today so tanks and healers are less needed.
    * Make roles more defined by making classes chose between dps and survivability. Introduce -20k defense + 10k power items, so people can chose if they want to hit hard or survive(or rely on the tank/healer...).
    * Mitigate some of the damage from ToMM by making weapons with ToMM base damage available outside ToMM, but with lesser effects.

    And this really needs to come with mod 18, I don't think you have time to wait for mod 19...
  • milehighxr#1299 milehighxr Member Posts: 387 Arc User
    nemesrich said:

    This game was once a an MMO (massively multiplayer online) game, now it is a MSO (massively soloplayer online) game.


    I'd leave instantly if regular content was so hard I had to group up with people just to complete it. I really love that I can do 99% of the game solo. As it is, I think changes need to be made for Tales of Old, as it was way too time consuming, and difficult(on xbox anyhow) to get a good group that would stick together for 5 runs.
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,318 Arc User

    I was hanging with the RP crowd but it looks like they moved on to higher grounds.

    I don't know if this is the cause, but the Foundry had a lot of dedicated RP maps. A ***lot***. An RP map was one with just visuals and no enemies, and a deliberately inaccessible end chest to prevent exploiting.
    Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X
    Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
    Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
    Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
    The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
  • kemnimtarkaskemnimtarkas Member Posts: 743 Arc User
    I only log in long enough to get the daily VIP key most days now.

    Honestly, if I hadn't built up all the VIP with prior year drops during things like Winter Fest (2 years to go still) I'd visit much less frequently.


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