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  • rey007#5400 rey007 Member Posts: 123 Arc User

    noworries


    I can tell you with no statistics, just talking to people in Alliance , zone chat, party chat- the warlocks and fighters do better than us.

    .

    Have you tried Sharpedge's Wizard Mechanics Guide? It's a long read; however, the guide is very detailed on how you can get the most of your wizard's potential. I am not end-game by any means but this guide has pointed me in the right direction on what works and what does not for this class. Good luck and enjoy.

    https://guides.jannenw.info/2019/07/13/wizard-mechanics-guide-module-17/
    - Rey

    - in umbra igitur pugnabimus!
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 611 Arc User
    Before talking that CWs will suffer a Nerf, they might think that they are being adjusted so that their damage is not higher than the other classes.
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 926 Arc User
    To all worried Arcanists: you are performing just 3% better compared to the desired target, so I am sure you will barely even notice the looming nerf. :p
  • bigdragon#4214 bigdragon Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    Will there be new BIS weapons for dps in the new module
  • bigdragon#4214 bigdragon Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    ???
  • genadine#7803 genadine Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    @bigdragon#4214
    They have said Lionheart from ToMM will be the BIS for all classes for the near term which I read 2-3 Mods
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User



    Do us all a favour and reduce encounter cool downs a bit for all classes this waiting for 10 to 20 seconds with at wills lark is Hamster boring.

    Right. This is the main issue with Hunter Rangers as well. It's almost impossible to keep up a good rotation.
    Wardens have large static buffs and Blade Hurricane helps filling the gaps, but Hunter buffs are more difficult to keep up and there are large rotation gaps where only unbuffed at-wills are available. Fun enough, the recovery time of encounters for Wardens is better than for Hunters (as storm's recovery is way more efficient than forestbond) even if Hunters are modeled after the old Trapper who had a basically seamless encounter rotation (same as older rangers with the Royal Guard set).
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 370 Arc User

    noworries

    Is the 3 NERF to wizard single target going to be compensated with increasing AoE?
    You destroyed the other path of the wizard giving up to the request for cw nerf.
    So ? Is the game better? Is anyone happy? Are you happy that you destroyed 1 paragon of a class and keep on nerfing us?
    95% of the wizards ARE NOT end game by definition.
    Do you care to know how we do in all content but ToMM?
    Do you care to know how cw s do in Hell Pit comparing with the classes you considered underpowered?
    I can tell you with no statistics, just talking to people in Alliance , zone chat, party chat- the warlocks and fighters do better than us.
    M 18 comes, why do you nerf us , Mod 18 is not ToMM.
    DO YOU COMPENSATE US IN AOE?!
    God, are you people happy?
    .

    I'm perfectly okay with buffing (or not buffing) the AoE CW, because mobs don't matter. They just don't. Not because tomm just does not have them, but in general, no content got harder by the random stacks of minion spawning around the place. Stealing damage from your teammate by the quick bursts is not actual DPS, because you wouldn't be able to maintain it if the packs would be alive more than 5 sec.

    Should CW be balanced? Yes, probably not that of a big nerf as people would like it here, but Arcane Empowerment is stupid (you basically rotate through your encounters 3 times as their CD drops to like 2 sec, proccing the hell out of everything) and using it to pass Phase 2 and 4 is kind of trivialising (and a horrible balance distribution of your overall damage).

    I blame AE for disruption in the statistics shown by @noworries#8859 because for a CW, it allows you with less overall damage than other classes to get better results, as you can spike it up in those crucial phases, where it actually matters.
  • killzoneexkillzoneex Member Posts: 94 Arc User


    The data shown was normalized data for ToMM runs on the PC over ~1 month. Normalized means extreme outliers were discounted to give a cleaner comparison. It does not show overall game balance, nor does it show the absolute maximum potential of any given class/path. That is also not the data used to make adjustments, wider data which includes more content and far more players is used to determine where game-wide balance is at.

    So where do the classes stand in our view on live currently?


    • Arcanist is over-performing by a decent amount
    • Warden is over-performing by a small amount
    • Assassin is currently at target
    • Blademaster is under-performing by a small amount
    • Hellbringer and Arbiter are under-performing by a decent amount
    • Dreadnought, Thaumaturge, Whisperknife, and Hunter are all under-performing by a significant amount
    Here is the problem with your methodology. If you were to increase across the boards the dps powers of Warden, Assassin, Blademaster etc. by 6% and then reran your parse over a month, you would end up with the exact same results as before. (i.e. Arcanist would be 3% higher than Warden, etc. etc.) Whatever our normalization method is, it's not doing what you think it is.

    As others have said, you need throw out ALL failed runs.

    Altering the Arcanist is probably not the correct fix either. I would leave them alone and instead improve single target damage on all the other dps classes so that they are on par with the Arcanist. TOMM has dps checks, no class needs to be lowered, rather the other classes need to be raised.
  • killzoneexkillzoneex Member Posts: 94 Arc User

    Or, from an other side: If your damage is not enough for tomm, because your class is underperforming, nerfs won't help you, but only make your potential team weaker. There won't be more classes making into the end, just less groups having success overall. So for an underperforming class, mod18 still means they won't going for tomm for the next 4 month and mod19 is pretty likely time for a new trial, so...

    I don't think this can be stated strongly enough. If your not getting into TOMM now due to your class not putting out enough DPS, nerfing the Arcanist is still not going to get those classes in. If anything, it will require even more Arcanists and no carries.
  • foxxy#4211 foxxy Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited December 2019

    ...But ..Rangers can rotate their 6 encounters every 3-5secs with their cooldown-reduction feats. This is way worse than a daily that can happen every 2-3 mins and doesn't let u generate ap when active. And rangers' aoes are very consistent with high magnitudes. So this daily isn't the problem in my opinion.
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User


    ...But ..Rangers can rotate their 6 encounters every 3-5secs with their cooldown-reduction feats. This is way worse than a daily that can happen every 2-3 mins and doesn't let u generate ap when active. And rangers' aoes are very consistent with high magnitudes. So this daily isn't the problem in my opinion.

    They can't rotate 6 encounters every 3-5 seconds as far as I can see.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 709 Arc User


    ...But ..Rangers can rotate their 6 encounters every 3-5secs with their cooldown-reduction feats. This is way worse than a daily that can happen every 2-3 mins and doesn't let u generate ap when active. And rangers' aoes are very consistent with high magnitudes. So this daily isn't the problem in my opinion.

    They can't rotate 6 encounters every 3-5 seconds as far as I can see.
    Rangers can rotate their encounters fast only if they try very hard not to do any damage.
    - bye bye -
  • foxxy#4211 foxxy Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 563 Arc User
    edited December 2019


    ...But ..Rangers can rotate their 6 encounters every 3-5secs with their cooldown-reduction feats. This is way worse than a daily that can happen every 2-3 mins and doesn't let u generate ap when active. And rangers' aoes are very consistent with high magnitudes. So this daily isn't the problem in my opinion.

    They can't rotate 6 encounters every 3-5 seconds as far as I can see.
    When combining ranged and melee stances yes, but maybe around 6 secs focusing in 1 stance
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 370 Arc User
    edited December 2019


    ...But ..Rangers can rotate their 6 encounters every 3-5secs with their cooldown-reduction feats. This is way worse than a daily that can happen every 2-3 mins and doesn't let u generate ap when active. And rangers' aoes are very consistent with high magnitudes. So this daily isn't the problem in my opinion.

    I think you misunderstand the point. The problem is not that a lot of encounters being spammed (okay, maybe a tiny bit), but the unhealthy nature of doing mediocre for a minute to then just burst out in the 10 second Phases.

    If a class like Ranger can rotate fast in 6 seconds consistently, that's okay if the cycle is reasonable damagewise. If you have a class like Wizard, where you have 1 rotation per 10-15 sec CD's and a daily where you just throw 3 rotation in 6 seconds, that's a problem, because in burst Phases (like mobkills and ToMM Phase 2 and 4) you essentially get more credit for less work, just by the content being tailored for your style.

    I don't want Arcane Empowerment to be nerfed or changed because I think wizards should be nerfed, I want it to change because it's too much too fast and if the data noworries shown is accurate, it pretty much shows that even that wizards perform better, they are even more likely to succeed as you need less potential damage to get through Phase 2 and 4 and those wizards average out the others distorting the difference in DPS downwards.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    I think people have it wrong by thinking that a nerf to wizards would not open paths for other dps classes in TOMM. Think of it as a survival of the fittest. It is not that a cleric or barb are not able to complete TOMM. It is the fact that there is always a much much better alternative available aka Arcanist. Therefore, in reality, eventhough that one barb can carry its own weight in TOMM, the fact that the arcanist is doing 30% more dps than that barb would automatically mean that he is getting carried.

    From that barb's perspective, why do wizards get to accuse him of being carried when he is actually playing a much more difficult class and still holding his own ground? This is where i think this game in its current state throws skill out of the window.

    By all means, compensate the wizards with AOE or anything else but if wizards get a nerf, then that sure as hell will open more paths for other dps classes to participate in TOMM. Though the symptom of that would be that TOMM would just get that much harder.

    So in reality, buffing other classes is a wiser choice but knowing cryptic, they wouldn't want to adjust critter health by buffing other classes so the easiest path is to nerf a wizard. But i am astonished how others don't think that this would open more paths for other dps classes to dps in TOMM.

    If you thought that a barb or cleric for example didn't have the dps at BiS to complete phase 2 and 4, then you are very misinformed. But the barb and cleric would have to be astounding players . As of right now, sadly even these astounding players are not needed in TOMM because you can make a wiz alt and master the class in a week. It couldn't get more funnier than this @noworries#8859
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 611 Arc User
    Since there was no more interaction of Dev with the topic and the preview of the new module was postponed, will we have some changes in classes coming already in this mod?
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 370 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    @sobi#1980 you do understand that all the people that can finish tomm, can just... make a tomm group and do it, right? Nothing gates you away from trying.

    The survival of the fittest is based on the scarcity of food/resources, but no one takes "your" spot, they just take a spot and so can you. Even heals and tanks are abundant, because there's nothing to do in this hollow shell of a mod until the end of january.
  • duckie#5377 duckie Member Posts: 42 Arc User

    ???

    MOD 20

    Or, from an other side: If your damage is not enough for tomm, because your class is underperforming, nerfs won't help you, but only make your potential team weaker. There won't be more classes making into the end, just less groups having success overall. So for an underperforming class, mod18 still means they won't going for tomm for the next 4 month and mod19 is pretty likely time for a new trial, so...

    I don't think this can be stated strongly enough. If your not getting into TOMM now due to your class not putting out enough DPS, nerfing the Arcanist is still not going to get those classes in. If anything, it will require even more Arcanists and no carries.
    Nobody is calling for Wizards to be nerfed (no doubt it will happen though because that how everything ends up getting balanced by the Devs) and I don't particularly want to be carried through Tomm by a Wizard thanks. We want our classes to be just as viable as a wizard and to be self sufficient by completing content on our own Merit.

    Don't feel hard done by, you've had a good year. ;-) Try being a cleric who has been hit with nerfs for the past 6 to 7 Mods or classes here who haven't got to play Tomm because they are not wizards.
  • demarw2#2749 demarw2 Member Posts: 70 Arc User
    Yeah, something HAS TO change before Mod19 will go live!!! It is unsuitable now. Some classes have huge disadvantages and no real chance to pass ToMM without being carried. That's really frustrating. I think most people won't have a problem with a delay of Mod18 by one week, if this week is used for a big class balance...
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    edited December 2019

    @sobi#1980 you do understand that all the people that can finish tomm, can just... make a tomm group and do it, right? Nothing gates you away from trying.



    The survival of the fittest is based on the scarcity of food/resources, but no one takes "your" spot, they just take a spot and so can you. Even heals and tanks are abundant, because there's nothing to do in this hollow shell of a mod until the end of january.

    You're telling this to a dps cleric main that often plays TOMM. My guild is more or less an elitist guild and I have been on multiple occasions told that I dps really well as a DC. Alas, they still prefer a "close to skill ceiling wizard" over me. Do note, the wizad has to be good to replace me. The sole reason why i would be swapped out for another dps wizard is because that class downright out dps's me in TOMM, it is by no means that i am a bad dps cleric. That there is a issue, why then turn a blind eye over it?

    They could perhaps target wizards burst and compensate with sustained dps. That brain dead daily has to be the target if so. At this point, a macro is probably the best way to play a wizard, surely you cannot out spam it.

    Your argument of making your own group is downright outdated. Even amongst my guild, elitist players have swapped over to wizards to lead the raid because why would others want to be lead by a person that they can out dps? The only reason i could think off is that they are good at calling on discord but that would mean that they must first be experienced in TOMM and that is completely contradictory if your class is discriminated at the outset.
    Post edited by sobi#1980 on
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User


    ...But ..Rangers can rotate their 6 encounters every 3-5secs with their cooldown-reduction feats. This is way worse than a daily that can happen every 2-3 mins and doesn't let u generate ap when active. And rangers' aoes are very consistent with high magnitudes. So this daily isn't the problem in my opinion.

    Warden Rangers can rotate 3 encounters in that time frame in a sustainable way (that's pretty much what you get from the 3 high-mag encounters with low cooldowns and storm's recovery). Hunters can do a single 6 encounters round in a few seconds (doing less damage than the Warden anyway) and then will have to wait a long time with unbuffed at-wills only
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
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