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  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Posts: 3,244Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    sobi#1980 said:

    gweddry said:


    The only way those numbers are even remotely close to being true is perhaps if you include (catastrophically) failed runs. There is sure going to be a lot of those so they will have a huge impact. Training runs with one or two strong dps players the same. Also because most of those dps specs aren't accepted for runs, I doubt some of the numbers (dps GF is probably the best example) have any significance.

    The numbers were for ToMM runs over the period specified and it is accurate data that has been normalized for better comparison. We also have the whisker plots to see the full range of every player over the time period and where they fall.

    The point of showing the ToMM data is not to suggest that in all aspects of the game the classes are that close together. It was intended to show that 1) when top item levels and top skill levels combine, the classes potentials are a lot closer than players would typically expect and 2) ToMM is not exclusive to any sub group of classes, although it is certainly easier for some classes than others.

    We don't use that particular data set for where our major class balance efforts are targetted, we focus more on the top 10% game wide, which does show bigger percentage differences between the paragon paths, and does drop Dreadnought down quite a bit more as I had mentioned in that previous post.
    Since this data was taken from TOMM runs and normalised for better comparison so why make this confusing and lets stick with TOMM as an example. So from your findings, a wiz is apparently only doing 6% more than fighter ST dps and 1.4% more than Hellbringer?

    What if i can prove to you that actually, a cleric can out dps a fighter, warlock and even barb and rogue and on par with rangers?
    I always enjoy watching top tier players show off their skills, so I would certainly enjoy seeing a cleric performing that well. For clarification, in game wide data the Arbiter does outperform Dreadnought already, with a larger sample size it wouldn't be surprising at all to see them also exceed fighter in ToMM. But it would certainly be fun to watch an Arbiter go toe to toe with a top tier ranger.

    In the end though, that by itself wouldn't change our plans to bring Arbiter and Dreadnought up to the target range for balance as on average they're both below where we'd like them to be.
    Thank you, it is appreciated. I do not doubt your findings, like i said, i have seen barbs dish out 286k encpds over 3-4minutes dummy test (probably more for the one barb in my guild). I am sitting comfortably at 300encpds on a dummy with no lion heart and 193k power but i have another build which presumably can do much better but harder to play. What i do think makes the difference is how difficult the class is. Wizards, rangers and assassins are just too easy to play and can easily mimic a dummy test in TOMM than an arbiter or a blademaster can, so my dummy tests over 3-5minutes are too difficult to mimic in a real dungeon and that's where most arbiters in TOMM fail. That doesn't mean the class doesn't have the capacity. The reason why most of us are infuriated is because the select few that know their class thoroughly are judged because the majority of others are not able to play their class optimally and thus we are discriminated. I will look forward to arbiter adjustments as i have so much to share but making gear complement them and making their mistakes less unforgiving in the kit can be a way forward. I can't however say anything about hellbringer, but i have seen amazing hellbringers, however, TOMM favours wiz way too much so they are always too far ahead in dps. It is widely known that to play wiz optimally, you have to smash the board as fast as you can, whereas arbiter is all about timing, a well thought out class i must say but a little clunky right now though.

    Can you show with act log your encdps + the encounters u use?
  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Posts: 86Member Arc User
    I would also be very interested in seeing some of these 72million 4minute single target parses too
  • burnthedead#7732 burnthedead Posts: 43Member Arc User
    k, My 2 cents:
    Since I"m not a developer, I wouldn't know how to "class balance", however, what if we were given new enchantments specific to each class?
    Like for example a Bloodtheft type that gives an extra hit to clerics, or Fireball enchant that gives SW a dot burn with double the duration, or tanks a doubling of run or attack speed for 20 seconds.
    I don't know if reworking old content would be as quick a fix as this.
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Posts: 3,244Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    fisenfis said:

    While I am always hesitant to go off topic in a thread as it makes the information about the initial topic hard to find. In this case, at least so far, there doesn't seem to be any confusion about the information in the initial post, so I will briefly tackle the 2 main things being brought up here, but there likely won't be a lot of back and forth on those topics in this particular thread.


    Class Balance

    We agree that there is an imbalance in the DPS roles. In M19 the two main classes being adjusted for balance are the Dreadnought and the Hellbringer. When M18 comes to preview we will have information on a few adjustments to Arcanist feats/class mechanics to bring them more in line with the balance target (I realize saying this will make people think the worst, but Arcanist will still be powerful after those adjustments and the changes will be available as preview goes live for feedback).

    All of that is important context for the following part of that discussion. First is that there will never be perfect balance across the classes, and there will always be some classes that are harder to play and therefore under-perform for a more casual player, but can potentially even over-perform for a particularly skilled player. We have created a lot of analytics on class balance since M16. These include normalized damage charts, whisker plots, and percentile graphs, which we can filter by time ranges, classes, and specific content. We are actively using this information for how to tackle class balance.

    As a general point, Assassin in most charts is right around where we feel ideal balance should be right now. Since ToMM was brought up, let's take a look at the PC results from 1 Nov to this morning, and use Assassin as a baseline for where the other classes are at when running that content. I think players may be surprised at where some of the classes line up in this comparison.

    Class -> Damage performance in ToMM +/- %

    • Arcanist +3%
    • Blademaster +1.8%
    • Warden +1.5%
    • Assassin --
    • Hellbringer -1.6%
    • Dreadnaught -3%
    • Arbiter -6%

    It is clear there are outliers in Arcanist, Dreadnaught, and Arbiter. The others, however, are all very close together and in general would be considered all within an acceptable range of balance. In charts that include a wider range of content (or all content) there are larger percentage differences which shows there are more areas of balance to tackle than this one chart shows. ToMM is a useful example to see how the classes compare when played by top tier IL players, and hopefully also shows that ToMM is complete-able (and has been completed) by all classes in the game.

    Changes from this chart compared to more broad charts show a larger positive differential for Arcanist and Warden, brings Blademaster below Assassin with Hellbringer right behind that and brings Arbiter above Dreadnought. You see a wider variance when including a larger selection of content as it adds a far greater percentage of the player base into the damage pool.

    There were some paragon paths not listed there, such as Whisperknife, Hunter, and Thaumaturge. Whisperknife and Hunter are not performing where we'd like, and are paths we want to work on, however since those classes have very solid paths as their other choices, that puts the priority a bit further down the list on class work.

    First off, the scaling that was talked about for mod 19 sounds great. I'm tired of feeling like all the hard work, upgrades and farming to become BiS is thrown out the window when running scaled content. Players should not be punished for their progression and have to swap out gear depending on the content they run. I hope that this translates well and if so it will be a great implementation and make the experiences an overall better one.

    As for the damage performances. No. Just no. I'm not sure where those numbers are drawn from but the majority of the playerbase know how each class performs, what might not had been taken into consideration with those numbers is what contributed to every class performance. There are a number of things that can alter dps at the moment: the broken Darkened Storyteller, Xuna companion, overall weaker players entering Tomm, no name a few. The top end players already finished Tomm and perhaps now we see the second tier of players entering the trial which evens out the dps if you have less experienced wizards running with fully maxed out fighters for an example. We all know that the flavor of this mod are the wizards, even if you aren't particularly knowledgable of the class you will perform well as opposed to other classes. You pick a fighter and expect to be somewhat keeping up with a wizard in dps? Good luck. We know you will stick to your data no matter what but the playerbase will say otherwise on this topic, but all in all the numbers don't mean much without context.
    xuna can alter dps? nice one tell more:)
  • rickcase276rickcase276 Posts: 1,250Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Yes I would be interested to know the exact damage output of each class/paragon, in relation to each other, in a sterile environment. So long as buffs and external factors affect each class/paragon the same then that would be the best way to know, but I am not certain that buffs and external factors do affect each class similarly, from what I can tell.
  • xavior44xavior44 Posts: 107Member Arc User
    edited December 2019

    While I am always hesitant to go off topic in a thread as it makes the information about the initial topic hard to find. In this case, at least so far, there doesn't seem to be any confusion about the information in the initial post, so I will briefly tackle the 2 main things being brought up here, but there likely won't be a lot of back and forth on those topics in this particular thread.


    Class Balance

    We agree that there is an imbalance in the DPS roles. In M19 the two main classes being adjusted for balance are the Dreadnought and the Hellbringer. When M18 comes to preview we will have information on a few adjustments to Arcanist feats/class mechanics to bring them more in line with the balance target (I realize saying this will make people think the worst, but Arcanist will still be powerful after those adjustments and the changes will be available as preview goes live for feedback).

    All of that is important context for the following part of that discussion. First is that there will never be perfect balance across the classes, and there will always be some classes that are harder to play and therefore under-perform for a more casual player, but can potentially even over-perform for a particularly skilled player. We have created a lot of analytics on class balance since M16. These include normalized damage charts, whisker plots, and percentile graphs, which we can filter by time ranges, classes, and specific content. We are actively using this information for how to tackle class balance.

    As a general point, Assassin in most charts is right around where we feel ideal balance should be right now. Since ToMM was brought up, let's take a look at the PC results from 1 Nov to this morning, and use Assassin as a baseline for where the other classes are at when running that content. I think players may be surprised at where some of the classes line up in this comparison.

    Class -> Damage performance in ToMM +/- %

    • Arcanist +3%
    • Blademaster +1.8%
    • Warden +1.5%
    • Assassin --
    • Hellbringer -1.6%
    • Dreadnaught -3%
    • Arbiter -6%

    It is clear there are outliers in Arcanist, Dreadnaught, and Arbiter. The others, however, are all very close together and in general would be considered all within an acceptable range of balance. In charts that include a wider range of content (or all content) there are larger percentage differences which shows there are more areas of balance to tackle than this one chart shows. ToMM is a useful example to see how the classes compare when played by top tier IL players, and hopefully also shows that ToMM is complete-able (and has been completed) by all classes in the game.

    Changes from this chart compared to more broad charts show a larger positive differential for Arcanist and Warden, brings Blademaster below Assassin with Hellbringer right behind that and brings Arbiter above Dreadnought. You see a wider variance when including a larger selection of content as it adds a far greater percentage of the player base into the damage pool.

    There were some paragon paths not listed there, such as Whisperknife, Hunter, and Thaumaturge. Whisperknife and Hunter are not performing where we'd like, and are paths we want to work on, however since those classes have very solid paths as their other choices, that puts the priority a bit further down the list on class work.</blo

    What a joke on thinking all the classes are that close together, its been proven time and time again, the percentile difference between classes at max potential are closer to 30-40% in some cases, lets take the rogue and the warlock... theres a 27% damage difference @ max potential in TOMM(mainly because of the soul puppet dying and not being able to keep soul inventure stacked) so where your getting 1.6% is madeup.
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Posts: 63Member Arc User
    > @noworries#8859 said:
    > While I am always hesitant to go off topic in a thread as it makes the information about the initial topic hard to find. In this case, at least so far, there doesn't seem to be any confusion about the information in the initial post, so I will briefly tackle the 2 main things being brought up here, but there likely won't be a lot of back and forth on those topics in this particular thread.
    >
    >
    > Class Balance
    >
    > We agree that there is an imbalance in the DPS roles. In M19 the two main classes being adjusted for balance are the Dreadnought and the Hellbringer. When M18 comes to preview we will have information on a few adjustments to Arcanist feats/class mechanics to bring them more in line with the balance target (I realize saying this will make people think the worst, but Arcanist will still be powerful after those adjustments and the changes will be available as preview goes live for feedback).
    >
    > All of that is important context for the following part of that discussion. First is that there will never be perfect balance across the classes, and there will always be some classes that are harder to play and therefore under-perform for a more casual player, but can potentially even over-perform for a particularly skilled player. We have created a lot of analytics on class balance since M16. These include normalized damage charts, whisker plots, and percentile graphs, which we can filter by time ranges, classes, and specific content. We are actively using this information for how to tackle class balance.
    >
    > As a general point, Assassin in most charts is right around where we feel ideal balance should be right now. Since ToMM was brought up, let's take a look at the PC results from 1 Nov to this morning, and use Assassin as a baseline for where the other classes are at when running that content. I think players may be surprised at where some of the classes line up in this comparison.
    >
    > Class -> Damage performance in ToMM +/- %* Arcanist +3%
    >
    > * Blademaster +1.8%
    >
    > * Warden +1.5%
    >
    > * Assassin --
    >
    > * Hellbringer -1.6%
    >
    > * Dreadnaught -3%
    >
    > * Arbiter -6%
    >
    >
    >
    > It is clear there are outliers in Arcanist, Dreadnaught, and Arbiter. The others, however, are all very close together and in general would be considered all within an acceptable range of balance. In charts that include a wider range of content (or all content) there are larger percentage differences which shows there are more areas of balance to tackle than this one chart shows. ToMM is a useful example to see how the classes compare when played by top tier IL players, and hopefully also shows that ToMM is complete-able (and has been completed) by all classes in the game.
    >
    > Changes from this chart compared to more broad charts show a larger positive differential for Arcanist and Warden, brings Blademaster below Assassin with Hellbringer right behind that and brings Arbiter above Dreadnought. You see a wider variance when including a larger selection of content as it adds a far greater percentage of the player base into the damage pool.
    >
    > There were some paragon paths not listed there, such as Whisperknife, Hunter, and Thaumaturge. Whisperknife and Hunter are not performing where we'd like, and are paths we want to work on, however since those classes have very solid paths as their other choices, that puts the priority a bit further down the list on class work.

    Those percentages are definitely wrong. I'm an end game ranger on pc (Neko-kun), and trust me wizards are a lot further ahead than that. I'm talking discrepancies close to 15-20%. Warden ranger is second best. Barbarian is absolutely horrid at single target damage so I have no idea where that figure is coming from. I've never even seen a barbarian make the paingiver charts in TOMM and I've probably run close to 300 finished runs by now. My assessment based on wizard damage is this:
    Wizards being number 1,
    Rangers -5%ish
    Rogues -8%ish
    Cleric -25%
    Barbarian/warlock/fighter I honestly don't know, probably close to -30%
    Wizards are by far and away, much more than 3%, the best single target dps.

    I agree that assassin rogue/warden ranger are a good baseline. The other classes should be buffed up to the level of warden/assassin and arcanist "adjusted" down a bit.
  • radmin#3190 radmin Posts: 8Member Arc User

    While I am always hesitant to go off topic in a thread as it makes the information about the initial topic hard to find. In this case, at least so far, there doesn't seem to be any confusion about the information in the initial post, so I will briefly tackle the 2 main things being brought up here, but there likely won't be a lot of back and forth on those topics in this particular thread.


    Class Balance

    We agree that there is an imbalance in the DPS roles. In M19 the two main classes being adjusted for balance are the Dreadnought and the Hellbringer. When M18 comes to preview we will have information on a few adjustments to Arcanist feats/class mechanics to bring them more in line with the balance target (I realize saying this will make people think the worst, but Arcanist will still be powerful after those adjustments and the changes will be available as preview goes live for feedback).

    All of that is important context for the following part of that discussion. First is that there will never be perfect balance across the classes, and there will always be some classes that are harder to play and therefore under-perform for a more casual player, but can potentially even over-perform for a particularly skilled player. We have created a lot of analytics on class balance since M16. These include normalized damage charts, whisker plots, and percentile graphs, which we can filter by time ranges, classes, and specific content. We are actively using this information for how to tackle class balance.

    As a general point, Assassin in most charts is right around where we feel ideal balance should be right now. Since ToMM was brought up, let's take a look at the PC results from 1 Nov to this morning, and use Assassin as a baseline for where the other classes are at when running that content. I think players may be surprised at where some of the classes line up in this comparison.

    Class -> Damage performance in ToMM +/- %

    • Arcanist +3%
    • Blademaster +1.8%
    • Warden +1.5%
    • Assassin --
    • Hellbringer -1.6%
    • Dreadnaught -3%
    • Arbiter -6%

    It is clear there are outliers in Arcanist, Dreadnaught, and Arbiter. The others, however, are all very close together and in general would be considered all within an acceptable range of balance. In charts that include a wider range of content (or all content) there are larger percentage differences which shows there are more areas of balance to tackle than this one chart shows. ToMM is a useful example to see how the classes compare when played by top tier IL players, and hopefully also shows that ToMM is complete-able (and has been completed) by all classes in the game.

    Changes from this chart compared to more broad charts show a larger positive differential for Arcanist and Warden, brings Blademaster below Assassin with Hellbringer right behind that and brings Arbiter above Dreadnought. You see a wider variance when including a larger selection of content as it adds a far greater percentage of the player base into the damage pool.

    There were some paragon paths not listed there, such as Whisperknife, Hunter, and Thaumaturge. Whisperknife and Hunter are not performing where we'd like, and are paths we want to work on, however since those classes have very solid paths as their other choices, that puts the priority a bit further down the list on class work.
    @noworries#8859
    I do not think to be expert, but playing the Tr class since 6 years, I think I know her fairly well. I done ToMM I think more than 400 times, maybe more than 500 I don't remember it, and I'm sure the dps data you collected is incorrect.
    Always or almost always playing with top players, I assure you that the Cw's damages are well over 3% even with the same player ability, the difference is enormous. Consider that every rune of 6 or 7 dps there are always at least 4/6 cw or 4 cw 2 hr 1 tr, every run the best cw give me a detachment of about 100 million.
    Even if I played with personal dps artifacts, the extraction would still be around 60/80 million out of 280. We have a difference about 30%. We can put all the variables you want but between 3% and 30% I personally would look at the data well.
    I wish you run with us to see ....
    goodbye and good work

    *sorry for my bad english
  • milehighxr#1299 milehighxr Posts: 205Member Arc User

    While I am always hesitant to go off topic in a thread as it makes the information about the initial topic hard to find. In this case, at least so far, there doesn't seem to be any confusion about the information in the initial post, so I will briefly tackle the 2 main things being brought up here, but there likely won't be a lot of back and forth on those topics in this particular thread.


    Class Balance

    We agree that there is an imbalance in the DPS roles. In M19 the two main classes being adjusted for balance are the Dreadnought and the Hellbringer. When M18 comes to preview we will have information on a few adjustments to Arcanist feats/class mechanics to bring them more in line with the balance target (I realize saying this will make people think the worst, but Arcanist will still be powerful after those adjustments and the changes will be available as preview goes live for feedback).

    All of that is important context for the following part of that discussion. First is that there will never be perfect balance across the classes, and there will always be some classes that are harder to play and therefore under-perform for a more casual player, but can potentially even over-perform for a particularly skilled player. We have created a lot of analytics on class balance since M16. These include normalized damage charts, whisker plots, and percentile graphs, which we can filter by time ranges, classes, and specific content. We are actively using this information for how to tackle class balance.

    As a general point, Assassin in most charts is right around where we feel ideal balance should be right now. Since ToMM was brought up, let's take a look at the PC results from 1 Nov to this morning, and use Assassin as a baseline for where the other classes are at when running that content. I think players may be surprised at where some of the classes line up in this comparison.

    Class -> Damage performance in ToMM +/- %

    • Arcanist +3%
    • Blademaster +1.8%
    • Warden +1.5%
    • Assassin --
    • Hellbringer -1.6%
    • Dreadnaught -3%
    • Arbiter -6%

    It is clear there are outliers in Arcanist, Dreadnaught, and Arbiter. The others, however, are all very close together and in general would be considered all within an acceptable range of balance. In charts that include a wider range of content (or all content) there are larger percentage differences which shows there are more areas of balance to tackle than this one chart shows. ToMM is a useful example to see how the classes compare when played by top tier IL players, and hopefully also shows that ToMM is complete-able (and has been completed) by all classes in the game.

    Changes from this chart compared to more broad charts show a larger positive differential for Arcanist and Warden, brings Blademaster below Assassin with Hellbringer right behind that and brings Arbiter above Dreadnought. You see a wider variance when including a larger selection of content as it adds a far greater percentage of the player base into the damage pool.

    There were some paragon paths not listed there, such as Whisperknife, Hunter, and Thaumaturge. Whisperknife and Hunter are not performing where we'd like, and are paths we want to work on, however since those classes have very solid paths as their other choices, that puts the priority a bit further down the list on class work.
    And for Oathkeepers??? We are still left in the dust?
  • milehighxr#1299 milehighxr Posts: 205Member Arc User

    This makes sense, as I was so surprised in M16 that you could cap all offensive and defensive ratings in every class with no effort. You could tell this at M16 release so people could knew that was intended.

    Lets see how it goes.

    I'd like to know how this is done without spending $500.00 in one shot. I have 4 toons on xbox, and only one has the important stats for ToMM capped. Even that took 6 legendary comps, almost all r13-14 enchants, r14 bondings, r10-11 runestones, and the IL1010 comp gear. All my alts have have IL 1010, or 990 comp gear and are no where near ready for LoMM IMHO, let alone ToMM. How will these guys fare in M18???
    If you read my post I was talking about mod 16, not mod 17 so the caps were 66K not 80K. And I was capped in every stat including defensive ones just putting the new companion gear
    I couldn't hardly reach cap in M16 on the important stats, so my argument is still valid for both, and for future as well.

    I've have asked numerous times to see builds so I can see how people are getting the numbers they have, and so far I see that 2 things are absolute musts:

    1. r15 bondings
    2. 1010 comp gear
    3. augment of some sort
    4. legendary comp for bonuses
    5. start maxing other runestones
    6. legendary mount
    7. epic insignias minimum

    Everything else can be trash and it wouldn't affect much.
  • milehighxr#1299 milehighxr Posts: 205Member Arc User

    While I am always hesitant to go off topic in a thread as it makes the information about the initial topic hard to find. In this case, at least so far, there doesn't seem to be any confusion about the information in the initial post, so I will briefly tackle the 2 main things being brought up here, but there likely won't be a lot of back and forth on those topics in this particular thread.


    Class Balance

    We agree that there is an imbalance in the DPS roles. In M19 the two main classes being adjusted for balance are the Dreadnought and the Hellbringer. When M18 comes to preview we will have information on a few adjustments to Arcanist feats/class mechanics to bring them more in line with the balance target (I realize saying this will make people think the worst, but Arcanist will still be powerful after those adjustments and the changes will be available as preview goes live for feedback).

    All of that is important context for the following part of that discussion. First is that there will never be perfect balance across the classes, and there will always be some classes that are harder to play and therefore under-perform for a more casual player, but can potentially even over-perform for a particularly skilled player. We have created a lot of analytics on class balance since M16. These include normalized damage charts, whisker plots, and percentile graphs, which we can filter by time ranges, classes, and specific content. We are actively using this information for how to tackle class balance.

    As a general point, Assassin in most charts is right around where we feel ideal balance should be right now. Since ToMM was brought up, let's take a look at the PC results from 1 Nov to this morning, and use Assassin as a baseline for where the other classes are at when running that content. I think players may be surprised at where some of the classes line up in this comparison.

    Class -> Damage performance in ToMM +/- %

    • Arcanist +3%
    • Blademaster +1.8%
    • Warden +1.5%
    • Assassin --
    • Hellbringer -1.6%
    • Dreadnaught -3%
    • Arbiter -6%

    It is clear there are outliers in Arcanist, Dreadnaught, and Arbiter. The others, however, are all very close together and in general would be considered all within an acceptable range of balance. In charts that include a wider range of content (or all content) there are larger percentage differences which shows there are more areas of balance to tackle than this one chart shows. ToMM is a useful example to see how the classes compare when played by top tier IL players, and hopefully also shows that ToMM is complete-able (and has been completed) by all classes in the game.

    Changes from this chart compared to more broad charts show a larger positive differential for Arcanist and Warden, brings Blademaster below Assassin with Hellbringer right behind that and brings Arbiter above Dreadnought. You see a wider variance when including a larger selection of content as it adds a far greater percentage of the player base into the damage pool.

    There were some paragon paths not listed there, such as Whisperknife, Hunter, and Thaumaturge. Whisperknife and Hunter are not performing where we'd like, and are paths we want to work on, however since those classes have very solid paths as their other choices, that puts the priority a bit further down the list on class work.
    And for Oathkeepers??? We are still left in the dust?

    > @coolgor28#5062 said:

    > Can you tell us if all dps paragon will have 3 offensive slot. Right now Barb's and gf have 2 less. And tha data that barbarian are 1.2 % behind arcanist in single Target aka tomm runs with 2 offense slot less is not possible. As other are saying this data are way off to the one we see everyday when we run tomm.



    I think all dps classes should have 3 offensive slots... When using a defensive tank 3... You should be able to change your teammates depending on the build

    Tanks need 3 offensive slots too/ We can't hold aggro if we hit like little girls. 20 mag damage for oath strike is rubbish, and divinity cost of smite makes it less than desirable as a means of doing dps.
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Posts: 3,244Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    This surprised me incredibly a lot
    How is arcanist overperfoming when almost every dungeon I was, either assasin rogue and warden ranger were doubleing my dps? Wizard was nerfed and it's going again there. Have you compared thaumaturge to warden and assasin? In my past Tomm runs, me as arcanist, rogues always doubled and tripled my dps, even being at same power average and damage +% bonus items. @noworries#8859 Please do not forget arcanist is very bad at aoe and messing with its single dps build should at least improve its aoe portion; single target thaumaturge was sent to hell already.

    if another arcanist does 2x your damage, what is the arcanist? good or bad?




  • xavior44xavior44 Posts: 107Member Arc User

    This surprised me incredibly a lot
    How is arcanist overperfoming when almost every dungeon I was, either assasin rogue and warden ranger were doubleing my dps? Wizard was nerfed and it's going again there. Have you compared thaumaturge to warden and assasin? In my past Tomm runs, me as arcanist, rogues always doubled and tripled my dps, even being at same power average and damage +% bonus items. @noworries#8859 Please do not forget arcanist is very bad at aoe and messing with its single dps build should at least improve its aoe portion; single target thaumaturge was sent to hell already.

    Please delete your post , your clearly not playing your class right. I suggest talking to other high-end wizards and making ajustments
  • meiramimeirami Posts: 423Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited December 2019
    Edit: Nevermind. Could Arbiter now please get a buff then or not?
  • hrakhhrakh Posts: 114Member Arc User
    "Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

    Numbers without methodology are fairly worthless. If this is even a little part of what you are planning to base your balancing changes on, can you please share methodology for critique? I am sure there is a significant chunk of people here that understand statistics well to very well and there should be a sizeable group amongst those that are still able to critique politely :)
  • foxxy#4211 foxxy Posts: 515Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    xavior44 said:

    This surprised me incredibly a lot
    How is arcanist overperfoming when almost every dungeon I was, either assasin rogue and warden ranger were doubleing my dps? Wizard was nerfed and it's going again there. Have you compared thaumaturge to warden and assasin? In my past Tomm runs, me as arcanist, rogues always doubled and tripled my dps, even being at same power average and damage +% bonus items. @noworries#8859 Please do not forget arcanist is very bad at aoe and messing with its single dps build should at least improve its aoe portion; single target thaumaturge was sent to hell already.

    Please delete your post , your clearly not playing your class right. I suggest talking to other high-end wizards and making ajustments
    I know arcanist is one of the best single dps'ers in the game but performing better than assasin and warden? it ain't just me, many others think the same and playing right? well.. I follow @thefabricant guides so i think my rotation is the same and i am a good player, but i know my build isn't near his, specially in power and some pet bonuses; i speak for what I have experienced. Maybe he can share his points about that?

    Ps My post is staying, its my experience so thats why i found surprising @noworries#8859 analysis
  • chaostyleramicichaostyleramici Posts: 3Member Arc User
    Please buff creeping death in warlock in mod 18, creeping death need stacks dots
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Posts: 277Member Arc User
    edited December 2019
    @noworries#8859 I understand you think wizards shouldn't be scared for Arcanist nerfs, but I do. And everyone should.

    The main problem with the CW right now is that it overperformed in damage and maybe still does, so no one cares about it's flaws:

    -Both paragon is the same if you want to DPS, just Arcanist has Arcane empowerment and at the moment, better proccing rates, so it's the better one. People will jump back and forth between the 2 paragon when the other gets nerfed as they did from Thaumaturge.
    -Arcane empowerment is either overpowered or a scourge to use, because you never want to take such a risk for an average result. It's glass-cannon bursting the boss, which if gets disrupted (like, boss knocks you or goes immune), your damage is just plain lost, but even if you succeed, you just jumped to the top of the aggro chart and have to wait and basically tank with the fragilest class in-game until the tank reliably gets back it's aggro. And sometimes they can't, because you still proccing into the boss after you stopped attacking or just they not prepared that 1 person would be stupid to burst them out of their aggro position. Or in extreme cases: Using Arcane Empowerment on Drufi can disrupt it's phases instantly jumping into the AoE attack before spamming up the ice walls to go behind.
    -We know that the team hates spamming procs and I don't like spamming procs either. They cause quite a lag with a lot of CW around, a ton of lingering niche bugs and patch notes to fix them sometimes just gets things worse or completely break builds. Certain behavioral changes just don't get mentioned at all in the notes making everyone confused.
    -And proccing things fast with auto-target abilities is not fun.
    -The class is riddled with bugs which affects the entire class balance. And when everyone had to change from Thaumaturge to Arcanist no one got a retrain token, because that was only a bugfix. And it's not about the reroll tokens (I have maybe 40 left or more), but the general dread opening up the patch notes and asking around when I feel my damage is not on-par with before. So it might start to be the same damage as everyone else at the start of the mod, but what happens months later?
    -I loved the old MoF but after mod16, it's just a husk of a paragon, which is a shame considering that I wanted Fireball to make it into the game (even if it does not damage your party members to death, which seems very noncanonical).

    And my issue is that none of the problems will be solved by balancing the Arcanist's damage out fairly.
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