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What has changed?- Too many people abandoning tiamat trial

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  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    IL is the most garbage way of gating content in this game that i could ever imagine. You can be 26k ilvl and a 22k ilvl can kick your HAMSTER upside down. ILV just becomes obsolete once you are capped in offences (for dps) and have relatively similar power stat to a higher ilvl person.

    They should instead gate content behind a mixture of power and ilvl. Not sure how this should work out for tanks that do not necessarily want to go high power, maybe HP can be used for them instead of power?

    IL is not everything, in most slots BIS is not highest IL, BUT this is RANDOM que. There has to be a simple way, to make sure, that ppl MIGHT be able to contribute. Cryptic decided vor IL, so IL it is. With hand me down gear, R8s and free account unlocked companions I could push my praying alts over 16k IL. It is no challenge to reach 16k IL with a lvl 80 char, but to keep it below 16k.

    I am so sick and tired of ppl complaining, 'that IL is HAMSTER, so stick with this HAMSTER'. I would prefer a 22k noob to a 16k noob any day. The 22k noob might have capped some stats by accident and wont drop dead, when a mob looks at him funny.

    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    edited November 2019

    sobi#1980 said:

    IL is the most garbage way of gating content in this game that i could ever imagine. You can be 26k ilvl and a 22k ilvl can kick your HAMSTER upside down. ILV just becomes obsolete once you are capped in offences (for dps) and have relatively similar power stat to a higher ilvl person.

    They should instead gate content behind a mixture of power and ilvl. Not sure how this should work out for tanks that do not necessarily want to go high power, maybe HP can be used for them instead of power?

    I'm going to go ahead and jump forwards into the future world you've allowed me to peer in.

    [insert random stat/measurable] is the most garbage way of gating content in this game that i could ever imagine. You can be [insert random stat/measurable of monstrously high value] and a [insert random stat/measurable of a modestly high value] can kick your HAMSTER upside down. [insert random stat/measurable] just becomes obsolete once you realize that even at same stat levels, skill still trumps stats.

    No systems is perfect. No system will ever be perfect and your idea is just a deviation of item level gating. I've seen people get smoked with 20-30k more power and the right gear than someone else.

    What's next? Powers/Rotation checks before you can queue? IL works fine for the purpose it serves. Throwing together 5 random people that decided to pug content.

    I don't know why you even extended your post so long. Let me make it clear and concise for you. Ilvl takes into account all of your stats (even hp) t whereas (for dps), power and offences are the deciding factor for your role, except tomm where you need hp and defence.

    So forget player skill here and assume the same player goes baphomet set and the arcturia set. The latter will give you around 500 more ilvl but the baphomet set is actually Bis (except maybe for wiz). So you are doing more dps with 500-600 lower ilvl.

    In other conditions, some players will have maxed out defences but not the offences, and not having your armpen, crit and CA capped is a huge kick in your dps. All in all, take player skill out of this equation, the whole ilvl gating content is non-sensical and illogical to boot.

    But with companion gear, it is very easy to cap offences but players then neglect power and power is not a laughing matter. So it's easier to focus on power and a mixture of ilvl to gate content then solely rely on ilvl (for dps at least).
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    sobi#1980 said:


    They should instead gate content behind a mixture of power and ilvl. Not sure how this should work out for tanks that do not necessarily want to go high power, maybe HP can be used for them instead of power?

    Which is why they use a simpler, one-check mechanic to get in places.
    So basically be lazy in everything you do.
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    > @rikitaki said:
    > If people leave in the middle, they came to a conclusion it is pointless to continue.
    >
    > There are usually just 2 possible rounds, otherwise you will run out of time. If the first round left 2 heads untouched and 3 overkilled, your chances are bleak. It is amplified by the fact that the white Tiamat head is a killer, effectively consuming more time than any other. Nobody knows how to use the white gem (seriously, even the way it can be used does not help much) - and as tanks tend to stand right under the nose instead of sniping from afar, it ends up in wipes with the area inaccessible to the melee dps. (the fun part is, at least in my graphic settings, that the leftover icy area has no longer any indication - and kills within 2 tics)
    >
    > So yeah, people leave because it is usually plain clear that it is pointless to try anymore. What changed is that now people can judge the progress of the run better.

    The use of the white gem is pretty clear. It unfreezes those who have been freezes. This means that the gem holder has to avoid been freezed. Fully agree on all your other comments.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Member Posts: 1,654 Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    I don't know why you even extended your post so long. Let me make it clear and concise for you.

    I extended it to try to hammer a point home. Sometimes you need to be verbose to get through thick skulls that are incapable of seeing a glaring hole in their thinking.

    Unfortunately, the point was still lost. Here's a concise example.

    2 players. Same gear. Same stats.
    One better because of skill. One worse because lack of skill.
    Item Level, stats, etc don't change that so any method you choose leads to the same pitfall.

    You can walk a horse to water, but you can't make him drink (or think).
  • callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,710 Arc User
    I gave up on a Tiamat run last night.

    Of the 10 toons 8 were at one priest, me and one other were at the other priest.

    First Dragon Head was at 50% health after about 1.5 mins.

    It was never going to end well.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,083 Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:



    So basically be lazy in everything you do.

    That is your opinion, considering you have no idea the amount of man hours the devs have available to them at any given time and how much of that time usage is already predetermined for ongoing projects.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • milehighxr#1299 milehighxr Member Posts: 461 Arc User
    I've been noticing on Xbox also that people are leaving Tiamat constantly. I have been into it 6 times in the last week when doing random q for my rad farm. 4 out of those 6 were fails. Of the 2 that were successful, I could only make the key on one toon. So now this trial becomes worth way less than the effort to succeed suggests.

    This is another example of why scaling in any way, shape, or form needs to be removed from the game.

    Another problem with that trial, is people don't understand that you need to not try a kill the head on the first round. Unfortunately there are too many players that don't want to listen, "cuz yer IL isn't maxed so yer not worthy to talk to me", or they see that yer dps is not as high as they think it should be at the end, and decide they won't listen in the future.

    This "forced teamwork" is something that drives me bonkers about this game sometimes. On xbox it takes hours to form a group for ToMM, and then it's a failure because people start leaving after the first time the group wipes. It's a game, it shouldn't require so much coordination that only elite groups can finish the end game content.

  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User

    I've been noticing on Xbox also that people are leaving Tiamat constantly. I have been into it 6 times in the last week when doing random q for my rad farm. 4 out of those 6 were fails. Of the 2 that were successful, I could only make the key on one toon. So now this trial becomes worth way less than the effort to succeed suggests.

    This is another example of why scaling in any way, shape, or form needs to be removed from the game.

    Another problem with that trial, is people don't understand that you need to not try a kill the head on the first round. Unfortunately there are too many players that don't want to listen, "cuz yer IL isn't maxed so yer not worthy to talk to me", or they see that yer dps is not as high as they think it should be at the end, and decide they won't listen in the future.

    This "forced teamwork" is something that drives me bonkers about this game sometimes. On xbox it takes hours to form a group for ToMM, and then it's a failure because people start leaving after the first time the group wipes. It's a game, it shouldn't require so much coordination that only elite groups can finish the end game content.

    Compared to other MMORPGs group content here is a walk in a park. This is a casual game. If you are well geared enough, you can speculate, that your team does not suck and go for one round. If you cant do that, you can see, if a kill in the 2nd round is vialbe or leave.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    edited November 2019
    greywynd said:

    sobi#1980 said:



    So basically be lazy in everything you do.

    That is your opinion, considering you have no idea the amount of man hours the devs have available to them at any given time and how much of that time usage is already predetermined for ongoing projects.
    Seriously, it is is not my opinion that the game is dying. Man power has always been an excuse for this game and look where it got the game to? But that's not even an excuse here, ilvl just doesn't work, actually all END game guilds have strict rules about not using ilvl to PUG. It is clear as a day that ilvl will fall into pieces in TOMM but i understand that TOMM wasn't meant to be queued. Still, the whole change to randoms was due to this reason (apparently) but they had the man power to do that, interesting. Well, then lets dvelve into OP's thread and explain to him, "that's your opinion".
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    edited November 2019

    sobi#1980 said:

    I don't know why you even extended your post so long. Let me make it clear and concise for you.

    I extended it to try to hammer a point home. Sometimes you need to be verbose to get through thick skulls that are incapable of seeing a glaring hole in their thinking.

    Unfortunately, the point was still lost. Here's a concise example.

    2 players. Same gear. Same stats.
    One better because of skill. One worse because lack of skill.
    Item Level, stats, etc don't change that so any method you choose leads to the same pitfall.

    You can walk a horse to water, but you can't make him drink (or think).
    SMH.... So the fact that the dev's can't invent a code to test a player's skill, equates to, to not even bother with it? Actually, player skill can be measured if you keep a record of their dps but that is far too far fetched to even be practical. Ultimately, it is yoursevles that has missed the point here, as i endeavour to explain it to yourselves, one last time.

    First, ILVL alone cannot measure your skill. However, if the focus was more on the primary stats and a mixture of Ilvl, it will make it easier to bring the gap between a skilled and bad player closer. So in lay man term's, imagine if the same person has 150k and in another situation, 100k power but with the same ilvl , he will obviously do more dps in the former situation, am i right or am i right? Now, please don't tell me that it is impossible to have less power but same Ilvl. Once you have acknowledged this fact, let us move forwards.

    So if there is a skilled player with the same class, gear/ilvl and 100k power but he is able to compare your 150k power dps, the more power you have the easier it will be to mask your lack of skill. Yes? I used power because like i have explained previously, offence stats are easier to cap due to companion gear and power is generally neglected and also more harder/expensive to build.

    So please smack me and explain it to me, where i might be going wrong?
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 926 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    Yes, it makes sense to judge the possible performance of individual players - I can clearly see it: required IL for Wizards 15000, 20000 for Warlocks. =)
    Post edited by rikitaki on
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,083 Arc User
    How do you propose to balance player A against player B? You want to do full stat comparisons? You want the game to keep a log of each player's performance to compare against each and every possible other player that might be wanting to queue for the same slot so only "the best" gets in?
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    How do you propose to balance player A against player B? You want to do full stat comparisons? You want the game to keep a log of each player's performance to compare against each and every possible other player that might be wanting to queue for the same slot so only "the best" gets in?

    You don't get the point. Skill can never be measured without it being impractical. Then you must move to see what actually benefits your dps (lets say in this situation). If you know that person A lacks skill, he will thus require more stats than person B. But, the system cannot identify A from B since there is no way of knowing who has more or less skill, so you just keep a benchmark. Like for Tiamat, you need this much power and this much ILVL. This way those people only focusing on ILVL and then getting scaled won't moan as muc, though end gamers won't benefit from this but nearly all are capable to carry themselves. They could alternatively, make power increase Ilvl by 2x and non-primary stats by 0.75x and then set IlVL requirement accordingl. Just play around with the numbers basically.

    So with this change in mind:

    Person A will find it harder to join the queue because he has neglected power or just doesn't have enough, sometimes to the point that no matter what his skilll is, he won't be contributing much. You just make this change for difficult trials/ dungeons and make sure that the people running their classes have the correct primary stats. It's as simple as that, if anything the dev's would be spreading awareness of how to build your character. Scaling also becomes less troublesome because your not gated behind content with ILVL alone.
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,259 Arc User
    The system could save how many times a character has been succesfull in each dungeon, trial or skimirsh, and then when you queue, try to balance the team with players that has done the content lots of times with players with less succesful runs.

    Just an idea to make the game better for everyone.
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  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    edited November 2019

    The system could save how many times a character has been succesfull in each dungeon, trial or skimirsh, and then when you queue, try to balance the team with players that has done the content lots of times with players with less succesful runs.

    Just an idea to make the game better for everyone.

    This seems simple enough really, just keep a log of a player for each dungeon and the success rate. But i don't think it should be solely relied on. I have mentioned taking power and primary stats into account. The dev's either go full out with a new formula to increase success rate by a long margin or just stick with one easy method and the players can just adapt i.e. only PUG lol.
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,259 Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    The system could save how many times a character has been succesfull in each dungeon, trial or skimirsh, and then when you queue, try to balance the team with players that has done the content lots of times with players with less succesful runs.

    Just an idea to make the game better for everyone.

    This seems simple enough really, just keep a log of a player for each dungeon and the success rate. But i don't think it should be solely relied on. I have mentioned taking power and primary stats into account. The dev's either go full out with a new formula to increase success rate by a long margin or just stick with one easy method and the players can just adapt i.e. only PUG lol.
    I dont think anything with stats will work, the same as it doesnt work with Item Level. If you put more value in power, people will push power and they may forget other important stats like armorpen or crit, or defense, or hitpoints.

    I allways told that this game needs something like a tutoring feature, but something that is not mandatory. This option to balance the teams when you queue alone, lets say 2 veteran players with 3 news, could give more rewards as incentive if you complete the dungeon, so the players are more encouraged to teach the less experienced players with a common goal.

    I think you need to reeducate people, is much better than force things. Once people assume that if you queue alone someone will help you or teach the mechanics, and if you are the expert, you will get an extra reward that will make enough for your time, people will decide if they queue alone or not, but lots of people will I think.

    Those rewards could even be titles and transmutes if you dont want to push "power loot" but something unique may do the thing. Or better you could give new boon powers like if it were a new campaign.

    The good thing about this is that is easy to implement and should not take lot of developer resources.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garlic PvE Paladin
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  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Member Posts: 417 Arc User
    edited November 2019


    Those rewards could even be titles and transmutes if you dont want to push "power loot" but something unique may do the thing. Or better you could give new boon powers like if it were a new campaign.

    The good thing about this is that is easy to implement and should not take lot of developer resources.

    What about the opposite of the votekick system ?
    Do the same thing but with a "thank you very much !" system which would allow you to trigger a vote once per dungeon, and only at the last firecamp, about a player ("Do you want to thank this player : yes/no") (should only work in RQ, you can't vote for someone in your friendlist, guild, ally nor if he is part of your queuegroup previous to the dungeon)
    Make those "thank you", when 2 yes votes or more, charging a trinket (1/10 charges) which can be use by the player to cast whenever wherever he wants one 5min random tiny party buff "One for all"/ charge (something like +100power or +250hp for all the party, cumulative with other players if they cast it also and separated from other trinkets buffs so they doesn't nullify each other).
  • akemnosakemnos Member Posts: 597 Arc User
    As Darthpotater said: "I dont think anything with stats will work, the same as it doesnt work with Item Level. If you put more value in power, people will push power and they may forget other important stats like armorpen or crit, or defense, or hitpoints."


    This is exactly what will happen if a multiple stat feature is put in place of just ilevel. For example:

    current random dungeon ilevel need - 17k

    new random dungeon ilevel need 17k , power 80k

    current stats power 60k, arm pen 60k, ca 45k, accuracy 90k, defense 50k

    so to run the dungeon i need to find 20k power. I buy some garbage off the AH house and end up with the following instead:

    current stats power 82k, arm pen 50k, ca 52k, accuracy 84k, defense 40k

    technically my stats are now better as i have 3k more total stats and i now meet the requirements again. However i would actually say my stats are worse as i take more damage and possibly due less damage as my arm pen is now lower.

    If the people do not have properly built toons in regards to stat distribution adding in a secondary requirement on the queues does nothing except change there stat distribution. It does absolutely nothing to prevent them from making the same or even worse mistakes.

    note these numbers are completely made up as i have no idea what the actual queue limits are.

  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User

    The system could save how many times a character has been succesfull in each dungeon, trial or skimirsh, and then when you queue, try to balance the team with players that has done the content lots of times with players with less succesful runs.

    Just an idea to make the game better for everyone.

    Sure, make geared players carry bots, alts and slackers. Thats what I sign up for in RQ. I would prefer a system, where you are grouped with ppl of similar succsess rates, but god forbid, that players have to rely on their own contribution. Socialism in MMORPGs.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited November 2019
    I have always felt entrance requirements related to ratings, whatever the rating might be, should be removed entirely. They will never be accurate and someone will always be unsatisfied. There will always be someone so bad it doesn't matter how high you raise the requirements, they will never be able to do it and there will always be someone so good, that it doesn't matter how much you lower the requirements, they will always be able to finish it. Having a stat based requirement creates the expectation that by meeting those stats, the player will be able to finish.

    In my opinion, a better way to do it would be to unlock the next hardest dungeon, you have to have beaten the previous hardest dungeon with some constraints. For example, deathless elol under 20 minutes to unlock eCC. Sure, this has the problem that it is theoretically possible for a player to be carried through and in reality be unable to carry their own weight, but this problem already exists in the current system and it is far less likely for them to be carried in circumstances where there is a requirement that they do not die combined with a time requirement.

    It also doesn't enforce arbitrary stat requirements, because the developer's views of what is a good stat distribution and a player's view of what is a good stat distribution may not exactly align.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,083 Arc User
    asterotg said:



    Sure, make geared players carry bots, alts and slackers. Thats what I sign up for in RQ. I would prefer a system, where you are grouped with ppl of similar succsess rates, but god forbid, that players have to rely on their own contribution. Socialism in MMORPGs.

    Which is why we have guilds/alliances/friends lists in which to pre-make a party before running a random...
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    asterotg said:



    Sure, make geared players carry bots, alts and slackers. Thats what I sign up for in RQ. I would prefer a system, where you are grouped with ppl of similar succsess rates, but god forbid, that players have to rely on their own contribution. Socialism in MMORPGs.

    Which is why we have guilds/alliances/friends lists in which to pre-make a party before running a random...
    Most of my fiends dont play anymore and the active players from my guild are from another time zone. I could join a german guild, but after all the drama I have seen over the years in the guilds and in other guilds, I prefer multinational guilds. They survive and due to the language barrier and distance, ppl dont tend to talk so much HAMSTER or try to hook up.

    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • thany#4351 thany Member Posts: 267 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    Well. This is ok. They realized - it's waste of time. Today i've been playing as a tank. We tried two waves. I started "voting" to abandon instance (well, after some time you just know when there is no enough of dps , but they didn't agree with that...). They wanted to continue. Well. Two heads left an the end. Sometimes you just know when dps can't do that in time. I don't blame them. But they mostly blame healers and tanks when something bad happens.
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User

    Well. This is ok. They realized - it's waste of time. Today i've been playing as a tank. We tried two waves. I started "voting" to abandon instance (well, after some time you just know when there is no enough of dps , but they didn't agree with that...). They wanted to continue. Well. Two heads left an the end. Sometimes you just know when dps can't do that in time. I don't blame them. But they mostly blame healers and tanks when something bad happens.

    Nobody died, healer is 2nd in DPS ranking and it is still his fault, that there is not enough dmg.^^

    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • milehighxr#1299 milehighxr Member Posts: 461 Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    The system could save how many times a character has been succesfull in each dungeon, trial or skimirsh, and then when you queue, try to balance the team with players that has done the content lots of times with players with less succesful runs.

    Just an idea to make the game better for everyone.

    This seems simple enough really, just keep a log of a player for each dungeon and the success rate. But i don't think it should be solely relied on. I have mentioned taking power and primary stats into account. The dev's either go full out with a new formula to increase success rate by a long margin or just stick with one easy method and the players can just adapt i.e. only PUG lol.
    I don't see that working out. Way back when I was a lowly il 12-16k(mod 14-15) my pally got carried thru a ton of dungeons, trials, and skirmishes. Once scaling was introduced, it actually mattered if I did my job or not. Unfortunately there are too many people(on xbox at any rate) that don't know the mechanics of Tiamat(or Demo) that they can't contribute. They are also usually unwilling to listen to anyone that posts in group chat to do a specific thing or not do do something. They even go so far as to call you names when the run doesn't go well and yer not at the top of the paingiver chart.

    I really think that in the older content they should just remove scaling. I think this is the biggest cause of failed runs, especially in Tiamat.
  • spiorad#4889 spiorad Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    The system could save how many times a character has been succesfull in each dungeon, trial or skimirsh, and then when you queue, try to balance the team with players that has done the content lots of times with players with less succesful runs.

    Just an idea to make the game better for everyone.

    This seems simple enough really, just keep a log of a player for each dungeon and the success rate. But i don't think it should be solely relied on. I have mentioned taking power and primary stats into account. The dev's either go full out with a new formula to increase success rate by a long margin or just stick with one easy method and the players can just adapt i.e. only PUG lol.
    would be a good idea, with your mention of it not being solely relied on. there needs to be several metrics, or possibly different queues. if was only based on success rate, then someone who pugs and get bailed on, would never have a success a success rating, or some higher level players might resent feeling they have to carry newbies if they were forced into pairing with lower level groups.
    hopefuly dev's look at this and make something workable out of all the input we have here.
  • thany#4351 thany Member Posts: 267 Arc User
    edited December 2019
    They should move ilv far more for that content - 19k minimum... You can get into sva or tiamat or demo with low dps people. Hell no, my "worthless" warlock has ilvl to play tiamat. Tanks and healers can't help if there's no dmg. And of course. No one tries to learn something on youtube about that "dungeons" . Specially about sva. They don't know anything and blame all but them self. And you can write, but they don't want to read.
  • arieswytch#9832 arieswytch Member Posts: 110 Arc User
    How about a system that compares your character’s stats to the stat caps for that level of content. So, if you are in a dungeon that has a 60k stat cap, you get a rating from 1-100 that is an average of the percentage of each stat on your character compared to the stat cap (with no bonus for over cap so you can’t compensate for one low stat by overcapping another). Then there could be a +/- to that number based on how far over/under the recommended power level is for that content. Then you would need a certain stat rating to get into that content.

    This would have to be somewhat class/role specific as there are some stat caps that can change (i.e., crit strike for healers), but this might be closer to accurate for seeing if a toon is ready for content. This won’t help someone’s skill level, but it could help encourage more stat balancing and maybe reduce glass cannon dps’s.
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