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911 Overload Drains are broken in PVP and their associated guild boons plz remove them

kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,997 Arc User
edited August 2019 in PvP Discussion
@nitocris83 911 Overload Drains are broken in PVP and thier associated guild boons plz remove / disable them completely just like companions are supposed to be...

@devs you want fair Pvp Matches with rewards Right ?
HOW are new people supposed to get into fair balanced Pvp if their guild does not have wards to counter drains ...they cant ....

Only cowards use drains .. its Like saying have this ward and i will fight you on an even playing field .. .dont have a stamina drain wards ? ...then you deserve to lose by being completely immobilized and your dailies stripped ....


example 1 attacker has level 20 guild uses drains.. Players Rational : . only nubs morons that dont equip themselves properly / dont use wards deserve it..and poor low level guilds that cant afford wards . deserve to get smashed as a lesson

example 2 PLayers Rational: the devs put it in the game so i am going to uses it cause i dont want competition i want every one not to move and be target dummies

example 3 PLayers Rational.. player faces another players who guild has wards and gets countered and the match is fair ..(in his mind)
the devs made many many different type of overload enchantments for Pvp but i am going to force everyone to only uses wards to counter my drains /

example 4 PLayers Rational only some of the players on the other team are using drains ..but im am going to pop some on myself to make the whole other team suffer cause of that one player

example 5 PLayers Rational : We earned them . / if the devs did not want them in the game they would not be there/ should be fixed or removed ...
example 6 Player uses drains but then get smashed anyways by opponent/ guild with greater skill and using wards that own his hampster HAMSTER ..
none of his broken tricks work

example 7.. Im using drains ...so drain me then too/ oh and the rest of the people on my team too as collateral damage .....


If you are not going to remove drains at least let players buy wards in the pvp shop with glory to counter !!!!!!!!!!!!!
or build it right into a pvp artifact or item

aside from the fact that the drains drain more then then ward can counter so again not fair .. and you devs already halved stam regen in pvp this mod anyways ,.,

stamina drains were introduced (poorly conceived) in an era where there was a run away power creap in the game/ Pvp
and that was they devs easy band-aid fix solution

You guys redid the campaign Pvp boons but did not work on the guild pvp boons !1

@mimicking#6533 @noworries#8859 @asterdahl @nitocris83 @sgrantdev#8718 @balanced#2849 @ctatumdev#6113 @ncoreadev#4548 @rlesterdev#1958 @uimaven
Post edited by kalina311 on
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Comments

  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,997 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    Broken Rewards.. Broken Glory.. Broken Cc system ..Broken Drains (from inception)

    *Slow Clap*

    please dont start the pvp season with the mess going on !!
  • jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    It's all been said before as Kalina mentions. Drains have been a blight on pvp ever since they were introduced. I've never understood why multiple dev teams have seemingly supported their continued use despite repeated community outcries for removal.

    Could we please have a dev or a representative of the team comment on this subject..?
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 462 Arc User
    Not worth even going in, if people using the drains, imo. After the rounds where I saw it, I was done for the day. Best part is the rational, I want to have fun...OK. No ques happened after the drains showed, for almost 2 hours. How is that fun? Bottom line, some can't stand that they are actually killable now, so after a few days of not dominating....here come the drains.
  • kiraskytowerkiraskytower Member Posts: 452 Arc User
    kalina311 said:



    You guys redid the campaign Pvp boons but did not work on the guild pvp boons !1

    I think this is a good part of the reason the Devs have never removed the drains from PvP. Drains and the stronghold boons that go with them represent a pretty significant investment in guild resources ... and there are going to be a lot of people upset to have worked marketplaces and PvP boon structures up to 10 only to have the benefit ripped away. I think the best bet for removing these from the game is to lobby for replacing drains and the associated guild boons with new boons more in line with the new (but unreleased) PvP campaign boons. Having a couple of new options for "in-PvP" stats for example would go a long way towards adding back in some of the variety to builds that was lost in Mod 16/17.
    PandorasMisfits_Logo_175_zpskpytcqxc.png
    Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
    Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 462 Arc User
    I don't think people, without max guild boons, using drains is the problem, 4% isn't that much. At LVL 5, the guild boon adds 5% to the drain? And 5% for each lvl after? If glory could actually be gained, OK, it could be combated. It might take forever, but needing 300k glory to get a pvp boon to lvl 4? Impossible right now. So, they can run them, and I guess "won", since there are no ques.
  • lemollenlemollen Member Posts: 102 Arc User
    The situation will only get worse when they fix glory, rewards and leaderboard. There will always be people looking to get any advantage they can get. It’s gonna drive away new people who are looking to try pvp. Pls do something about this ASAP.
  • jonkocajonkoca Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,586 Arc User
    Does anyone know if the devs have ever given their rationale for the continuing presence of drains in pvp since they were introduced..?
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • kiraskytowerkiraskytower Member Posts: 452 Arc User
    jonkoca said:

    Does anyone know if the devs have ever given their rationale for the continuing presence of drains in pvp since they were introduced..?

    They have said in the past that they were "Working as intended" but I have never seen them give a rationale for why they were added to the game ... or why they remain in the game.
    PandorasMisfits_Logo_175_zpskpytcqxc.png
    Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
    Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,997 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    Now we get word that they need to balance classes all over again cause one dev did not get the memo to use the same math as the other dev ..this might further delay the Pvp season

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/comment/13120952

    The Plan:

    We looked at a few ways to approach the different aspects combining together and we agree that separating out CA, Crit, and Buffs is the most intuitive for players and will feel the best. To be clear that means it would roughly be this:

    Final Damage = Damage * CA * Crit Sev * combination of all buffs.

    It is unfortunately also the adjustment that will change balance the most and therefore will be a little while before the changes hit live (which will hopefully include some preview server sessions as well).

    This change will increase player damage by ~33%, which means we will need to do an increase to critter health to compensate.

    The same formulas that apply to players also apply to critters, which means critter damage will go up depending on the situation (if they are have high enough crit rating to crit the player, if they are in a position of combat advantage and have enough rating to cause combat advantage). This will be a tougher adjustment to make since for maxed out players, they are currently negating both of those enemy ratings and wouldn't see a damage increase, but for players not as maxed out they would.


    Because of those factors, we're going to want to test these changes longer and not push them into a near upcoming patch before we're sure the balance is still in a good place after the adjustments. And as I mentioned above, that will hopefully include some time on preview to get additional balance feedback before pushing it out to live..

  • pervertkun#8781 pervertkun Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    Going to give my two cents as someone who just recently started going PVP and is still trying things out.

    First of all I have a kinda slow AP regeneration (about 1 daily in 1minute and a half or so) and my stamina is almost always at 50% or less. Ive started using the stamina drains wards mainly for killing tankers, and I didn't even knew DPS had this much of a problem with it before.
    As stamina WILL run out eventually when you are in a close range fight, I really don't see the rationale for people hating that much on it - could be because the ward boon on my guild isn't maxed atm (and also, as I've already said, my own stamina is always low) so my at-wills aren't taking much more stamina than they were intended to (4% each attack seems reasonable, specially agaisnt ''tankier'' dps).

    AP ward drains is more complicated, though. I was talking about it a bit later on a closed PvP channel; I never tested them before, so the mechanics they used were kinda speculated for me.
    As I said, for someone with a low ap regeneration, taking out -20% AP from ONE target don't seen broken to me - but as I've understood from @kalina311 's words, the drain is occurring on every tick of the skill (correct me if I am wrong).
    That would mean, as an Arbiter, I could have Flame Strike feat and proc, in AoE, -20%AP x4
    ticks of the skill (I'll test it a bit later and try to post here what I find). If that stands true, then I can understand why people are upset by it, althought I don't know much about other classes skills, specially the area ones.

    My final thoughs:
    Stamina drain marks still doesn't see like a problem to me. If they were limited to their 4% drain, I don't see why they should be such a bother - if they can get as much as 10% stamina or more on each attack, they just defeat the purpose of dodging, though.

    AP drain wards could act different between single target skills and AoE ones. Because, once again in MY vision, taking 1/5 AP of a single target costing you a slot that could be used to increase your own dmg or increase your resistance, isn't that much of a overpowered deal. Now, taking 1/5 AP of everything the area of your skill can touch, and if it ticks again there goes more AP away, then yes, overpowered.
    Maybe nerf it, so it becomes more ''on ground'' with the other overloads? A bit less AP drain on single target, and definetely doing something about AoE effect?

    Also, while I don't agree on the ''poor people that can't get overloads'' argument, I think the idea of selling the PvP overloads for glory is nice.

    EDIT: Just doing a quick edit to tell, yes, the AP drain is proccing on all ticks of flame strike. I still stand for the idea of limiting the effect to single target or seriously nerfing it on aoe.
  • pervertkun#8781 pervertkun Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    Ive made two very quick gifs just to show about the stamina drain (I think, after a **** ton of attacks, the ammount of stamina drained negligible) and the flame strike proccing x4 times the AP drain.

    Stamina drain rank 2, other player isn't using boon for countering it: https://imgur.com/a/SOE5ZEx

    AP drain multiple proc: https://imgur.com/a/ZATIsHc

  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,997 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    @pervertkun#8781

    cute videos ...lolz dont cut off your encounter timers in testing ..

    There are serious flaws in your testing methodology for testing the effectiveness of ap / stamina drains or reducing .

    show a screen shot of your characters boons pages etc and the players ..(so we see there are no boost to ap gain or stamina gain and they are not wearing wards ...

    show the combat tracker in the windows as you are attacking/being attacked .. so anyone can pause the video and see the results .etc etc etc show the player is not wearing any armor kits boosting stamina regeneration .

    1 . show the current pvp boon active in your video ? is it the one that enhances/ defends from stamina and ap drain ?
    show it for all the players involved ..what guild levlel are you / players involved ?/ item level ?

    2 show yourself being drains of ap not other players how are we supposed to see it ? omg
    ..action points being drained does not show on the players tool bar what the heck is the purpose of that test ? they need to attack you ..you cant see if a player has a daily ready or not or what his bar is at or how much is being removed from thier action points

    3 show yourself actually doing a full rotation and show your cool down timers they are cut off ..try it using other Dc powers maybe ??


    4 what is the action point gain value and stamina gain values of the people your are attacking
    are they being bolstered by stats ..these will offset your results

    5 trying showing the same test with a tr hr or cw or warlock with abilities / dailies multiprocessing ticks . ,, Dc is not really a best case example to show there are many aoe / single target powers that are" broken in that sense they multi proc them ..as you saw with one cleric aoe power

    6 show the test with people using wards and without and also show their pvp guild boons ..show what level guild they are in ..do they have the guild enhanced drain or ap boon ... that effects them even more ..?


    7 show the test with 2 people using both drains types attacking you at once .. now how do you like it no big deal now ?


    8. show an actual battle being fought on the node .. and the effects of your combat abilities while being drained can you live can you survive ? as dps dc vs healing Dc ?

    also bear in mind when encountering most people thier stamina/action points wont be at 100% with surplus left over to drain most likely it will be at 50% or less .and lets say a player is saving a daily and someone shows up with even a 4% drain multi proccing = no more daily (at least until many many many more rotations ) its as good as if they drained 100% ap = death/ unable to help a team member / themselves

    be thankful the drains were already Nerfed several time by the devs due to heavy lobbying if they were not so bad why have they been nerfed / reduced 3 times already by the devs ? With an additional comment from a ex dev that they were looking to replace them ..

    thanks for posting as a new player tho

    as a cleric tho you should be using class wards of X to help your team mates shield against the biggest threats in the match

    P.S i already told you in Pvp chat cause you were confused the drains do not suck(lifesteal) the action points and stamina from the other players and give it to you ...it just drains it from them period .. you need to do tests with you being attacked not vice versa


    P.S.S using your methods you would be perfect to do a study for tabacoo manufactures proving it does not cause harm with your testing and obfuscation of embedded data / facts lol Im joking but you get my meaning ,.:P

    it is very disingenuous to do testing like you did ...i dont think you did it on purpose to deceive tho merely you are mis guided

    @barbie and no its not a good video its a terrtibad video come on dude
    Post edited by kalina311 on
  • pervertkun#8781 pervertkun Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    @kalina311 There we go, lets make a list.
    1.Current PVP boons: I was using the ''Enhance Overload: Stamina Drain Ward'' (asked the guild leader, I'm pretty sure it's lvl is 5/10. The other player is from the same guild as me, wasn't using any stamina drain related boon nor the wards.

    2.The only reason I've posted the AP drain video is to show why I agree it's broken. I don't know if you noticed, but I'm not disagreeing with you on the case of the AP drains themselves; Yes, I also think they are extremely overpowered, as shown in the video: I've used one daily to proc four times the -20% AP drain.

    3.Why does it matter? Isn't the stamina draining the same it would from an encounter than from an at-will? Doing an honest question here.
    I only used at-wills on the video, to see how much the wards themselves were actually draining.
    Also, the only reason I've posted the video was to see if we are talking about the same thing. Both the player I was playing with aren't serious on PvP so I took it as a base.

    4.Going to take some guesses here as they aren't avaiable in-game rn, but I would say around 20% stamina gain and 10%ish AP gain.

    5.No other Cleric skill, besides the flame strike, is multi proccing.

    6.That's exactly the reason I've posted there. To see how other classes experiences differentiate from mine, as I've shown, I still not seeing that much of a effect on the stamina drains.

    7.I've no problem with stamina drains, as I've already said before. Yes, as I also said before, I agree that the AP drains are overpowered.

    8.I don't have any problems with healers, tbh. Usually (except for some pallys) they are extremely squishy. I'm more worried about cc of TRs or CWs than myself having stamina or not, as if my enemies are ALSO without stamina they usually die after I do one rotation.

    You are also obfuscating data. If you thing they are that broken, why can't you post videos to counter mine? You seem misguided as I do, if you see this in that way. What I've posted is what I see when I'm playing; If you see something different, posting a video of it would help greatly in other people like me who doesn't see that happening, for understanding your side. Heck, if you are avaiable, come with me on a private and we can test these things. It would be a way better test, as I don't know any serious pvp player to test those things with.

    I don't know if english is your first language, but as I've already said I'll say again: Yes, I'm aware that the drains not ''lifesteal'' the ap/stamina. I have no idea from where you took that from.
    What the stamina video shows: I don't see stamina drain HAMSTER up the life of my enemy that much.
    What the AP drain video shows: Yes, I can see the AP drain is overpowered.

    PS. I can play as a Cleric, but inside PvP you can see me as much of a DPS than any other DPS class. I'm not a support class if there's the two crossed swords next to my name. I won't be playing support if I'm on DPS loadout.

    I feel the stamina drain is more useful for dealing with tankers than with DPS, so I'd rather use it than using a ward for +%dmg on any class. Still thinking about what I'll use on the other overload, as I'm not sure I would rather shield from a CW attack or a aTR attack, or just have a plain +%dmg increase on them.
  • pervertkun#8781 pervertkun Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    @barbie#2808 I see. I only started playing on the end of mod 14, and didn't started going PvP up to mod 16.
    There 3 people you are talking, are we talking about the stamina drains or the ap drains? Because I'm using stamina drains since mod 16 and never saw anyone calling me out because of it. Now, the ap drains one though, I've used them once for testing and I kinda felt bad later because it can actually be more HAMSTER than soulforged and op sigil.

    Also, I thing I only did one match against someone with AP drain. To be honest, I don't think many people would care if they were gone as there's not much place to defend them; They are overpowered, that's it.
    But I still like my stamina drains. I don't feel they are extremely powerful for me, that exactly why im there defending them to see if someone can post a proof agaisnt it so I can go ''oh wait, if I use them that way it may be kinda of a **** move".
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,997 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    "I don't know if english is your first language, but as I've already said I'll say again: Yes, I'm aware that the drains not ''lifesteal'' the ap/stamina. I have no idea from where you took that from..."

    there was another cleric trying them in (call for pvp) that thought it as the case pretty sure it was you .. and i am clarifying for other people reading that they dont do that

    i said "lifesteal' the ap/stamina so people that dont understand English as well/ have different terms in the native game language would know what i mean

    There is no way i would post a video to show people a tutorial how to drain more effectively either and what broken powers to use

    a warlock using drains in pvp can be downright nasty too ..think of all the little dots ticking : D

    etc etc ...
  • gonzakotwigonzakotwi Member Posts: 267 Arc User
    kalina311 said:


    a warlock using drains in pvp can be downright nasty too ..think of all the little dots ticking : D

    we got them no more XD
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,997 Arc User

    kalina311 said:


    a warlock using drains in pvp can be downright nasty too ..think of all the little dots ticking : D

    we got them no more XD
    combine with the correct weapon enchantment that have damage over times and you might be surprised
  • gonzakotwigonzakotwi Member Posts: 267 Arc User
    Meh, i prefer the crit heals of the vorpal
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,997 Arc User
    edited September 2019

    Meh, i prefer the crit heals of the vorpal

    good for you and your choice of weapon however you interjected into this thread about drains as a warlock and claimed you cannot produce dots .... and for the sake of argument i brought up testing drains with warlock power and weapon enchantments


    do you actually have have anything to offer or say about drains as a warlock in pvp as dps or healer? ?? or are you just trying to derail the thread by telling us about your favorite weapon enchantment( when playing a healing warlock ) and offer no information or feedback about drains
  • animamundi24animamundi24 Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    > There are TANKs that cant keep their shield up, draining their stamina makes their shield worthless, so why would anyone play TANK, when they can just go for a HEALER built with defensive stats.


    When i get a decent CRIT damage into my shield, it become worthless too with a single hit gotten. No matter if opp using drains or not.
    And guardian warrior hasn't a HEALER build.
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,997 Arc User
    edited September 2019

    > There are TANKs that cant keep their shield up, draining their stamina makes their shield worthless, so why would anyone play TANK, when they can just go for a HEALER built with defensive stats.


    When i get a decent CRIT damage into my shield, it become worthless too with a single hit gotten. No matter if opp using drains or not.
    And guardian warrior hasn't a HEALER build.
    right and what about your daily being drained too what does that have to do with shield being at 0 regardless of method ..some classes need stamina more ..some needs dailies more /

    lets say the guy drains you a few times and did not crit ... then you have no shield left to absorb the next attack/ face a 2 v1 regardless s if it might be a crit or not
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 462 Arc User
    Was up in Icewind Pass this morning, and people in zone were talking about drains. It got brought up, when someone using drains, just use drain wards. Then the question, do drain wards negate 100% of the drain. Someone in zone had max guild boon for PVP drain ward, and was running ACT. I equipped a drain rank 2, and he equipped his ward drain rank 2. I have guild boon rank 5 on slayer, which adds 1% to the 4% rank 2 drain. On ACT, it did not register the drain/ward to see a specific breakdown. But you can visibly see the stamina drain.

    The problem lies in the starting point of the drain ward, 20% of the person's overall drain. Even if you get max rank guild boon for wards, it goes up 1% from lvl 3-10(8%). The drain starts at 4% and has a max of 6% from rank 5-10 of the slayer boons, for 10% drain. Even only having a 5% drain, and they had max guild boon to negate, it still drained his stamina.

    So if you have rank 2 drain with no boons(4%), and someone has rank 2 drain ward(negate 20%), that only negates .8% and still drains 3.2%
    If you have rank 2 drain with no boons(4%), and someone has rank 2 drain ward w/ max guild boon added(20% + 8%) it only negates 28% of the 4% drain, and 2.88% still drains.
    If they have a rank 2 drain and max guild boons, they drain 10%. Wards at base lvl(no boons) reduce 20%, so 8% still drain, wards with max guild boon, only reduce this to 7.2%

    I saw in another thread, that there are 6 abilities that are CC broken, and support does not want to make public what they are, for fear of more players exploiting the broken abilities. I agree with this 100%. Most don't run drains, as they make the rounds not fun, and say 95% or more refuse to run drains. However, the ones that do, gain an unfair advantage, and there is no way to stop 100%, and those people know this, and will not stop using the drains. People do try PVP, but when things like this are broken, and cant be stopped, a large number don't come back. Please take a look at the drains. If you don't want to remove them completely, please at least change the point where the drain ward % starts(not 20% of overall drain) and at least allow people the chance to negate it 100%. Knocking 4% drain to at best 2.88%, or 10% max drain to 7.2% at best, is not helping.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,214 Arc User
    Defenses shouldn't be 100% against something someone had to buy.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,997 Arc User
    edited October 2019
    greywynd said:

    Defenses shouldn't be 100% against something someone had to buy.

    OH like the drains /wards and corresponding guild boons are not purchased either ? then why invest in the counter guild boon structures then if they inferior ...and do not work as advertised .. If your quote were true/fairplay why would the devs advocate changing them then ?

    also the guild pvp structures cost is the same to upgrade/ make. why should a less effective pvp structure cost the same to make as a more effective one ? what is the benefit for the pacifistic boon choice then? what is the upside then?

    i can understand the argument that it should be more effective against some one just wearing the wards and not the corresponding reinforcing guild boon if the guild did not invest in it ..but there are 4 to chose from 2 offensive and 2 defensive boons 2 enhanced action point drain /ward boons and 2 action point and stamina ward enhancement boons .

    those are the strategic choices..

    which should 100% negate each other at equal or greater level structure level . because a player can stack 2 offensive ones + guild boon .and you can only counter with wards and one defensive guild boon. .which is not fair/ a disparity for investment made ..in this scenario the "good guys" (people choosing not to drain there opponents/low level guilds memebrs that cannot even purchase such items )always lose/ are at a disadvantage

    Offenses shouldn't be 100% against something someone had to buy either bro just to use your own example against you .

    Post edited by kalina311 on
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