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Bile has further disrupted the class balance.

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  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User

    stark760 said:

    I see the test. With no flank, I avg around 100-110 enc dps per sec, I figure that would x2 with 100% flank. Not sure why your around 85k with no flank, including the bilethorn(13k with no flank). Again, I'd like to see an LOMM test. Target dummy can't die and will continue to give the procs, which adds to the total. You did 5 of the fastest encounter, not so fast, including free procs of it, and 4 IBS, which are faster than bloodletter. You did 130 swings and got it proc 220 times. The bilethorn seems to do 7-8k avg, on your tests. Relative strength and rotation would make bilethorn look better in an avg group. In a powerful group, the dots wont hit, because they're already dead. Get an LOMM test if you can.

    i actually do around at least 100k dps in tests without CA too. i was lacking some of outgoing damage in preview server, had low crit rate and high ping.
    stark760 said:

    You can say the IBS per sec reasoning, but you did 4 times total and less than Bloodletter. And you only flanked 50% on your biggest move, so a loss of 300k x4 on just that, and had a 1 of the 8 hit for 17k. The crit sev % is easy to test. The bilethorn, youre testing in 1 min, vs targets that cant die, looks like multiple targets(at least to CW procs), and less encounters than you should have on cooldowns(IBS and NSF should be procd more than bloodletter). I'd like to see if bilethorn is flat dmg per hit(8k avg looks like per swing), and what happens to people breaking 200k power and higher enc per sec. I think super geared players wont see the % like youre showing, and mobs dying will also impact overall damage.

    and im not sure if you read what i said before. "only flanked 50% on your biggest..." im sure i mentioned that in my comment... oh yes here it is : "it is just a bug that doesnt show 100% flank due to bloodletter hitting yourself without combat advantage and hitting enemy with combat advantage (probably). if you look at your own tests you will not find 100% flank combat advantage."
    I tested with 0% flank at dummy, which you could also test and see if the value of bilethorn moves according to flank. Easy test is to run LOMM with both and not at target dummy. The dummy will continuously proc the DPS, which dead mobs will not do. Or run a few min test and see what avg enc per second is, with vorpal and then bilethorn, but a test from LOMM or TOMM would be better I think. Not saying the bilethorn isn't good, but I want to at least see a test in a dungeon, and overall output besides a 1 min test at the target area, and then if power is a factor on the magnitude/weapon damage. I'm going to borrow one tonight and try and run a few LOMM's with each, if time and people not farming dread ring/tales/codg.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited October 2019
    I'm not sure I'm following this thread entirely. math isn't my strong suit. but what I'm taking away from this is great for barbies and ok for everyone else. true? False?
  • nl54#3191 nl54 Member Posts: 145 Arc User

    I'm not sure I'm following this thread entirely. math isn't my strong suit. but what I'm taking away from this is great for barbies and ok for everyone else. true? False?

    It's strictly a single target enchant in a dungeon scenario. It takes 4 seconds for the first DoT to proc, in which case the pack of mobs will likely be dead before the second DoT hits. As a barb, I wouldn't use it for AoE in group play for that very reason. Lightning is better in those situations. Bilethorn shines on lengthy single target fights (e.g. ToMM)

    Ninurta - 16.1k Half-Orc GWF

    Ereshkigal - 12k Tiefling SW

    Aurora Ravensong - 11.6k Drow CW
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    I remember Bile double proccing from some At Wills/classes and that's what it did for ages, not sure if fixed.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User

    @ OP:

    The point i want to make is that Bile has further increased this disparity. If you do the maths and consider Cleric,warlock, wiz, fighter and rogue at 114% base crit sev + potions , then vorpal should provide (20/214) x 0.5 = 4.7% increase in dps. I Just want to talk about the additional effects, not the 5% increase damage that we get from both vorpal and bile.
    The math doesn't work like that. For the 20% crit sev increase for R14 Vorpal, you should be doing (0.5 * 0.2) / (1 + 0.5 * 1.14) = 6.4% more DPS instead. This is because R14 vorpal makes your crits do 9.4% more damage, but 9.4% of a crit is worth more than 9.4% of a noncrit, so rather than just being 9.4%/2 overall at a 50% crit rate, it's skewed a little higher.

    As far as my HR goes, I've been pretty underwhelmed by the R9 Bilethorn I bought (only does ~4% of my DPS according to ACT, which includes the 2.5% bonus that all wep enchantments get) so I think I'll stick to Vorpal.

    Thanks for the maths. So for example, if Bile was showing 4% damage for you on ACT , 2.5% of that will be the bonus that you get from vorpal and bile at rank 9?

    If this is the case, does vorpal only show the Bonus on ACT and you have to add the crit sev damage on top of of it?
  • solanaceae#5995 solanaceae Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    Yeah, ACT sums both the bonus that all wep enchantments get and the Bilethorn-specific bonus into a single number, so you have to estimate how much is coming from the 2.5% and subtract. It's generally a bit smaller than exactly 2.5% of your damage.

    Did some new tests on HR. On long boss fights, R9 Bilethorn does closer to 6% (5.7% over 3 minutes, but the Orcus's full bonus is almost always up on training dummies) of my DPS according to ACT, so the procs do ~4%. With exactly 130% crit sev as HR, I get ~3% from R9 Vorpal's 10% crit sev. Bile does do a bit more than Vorpal on bosses for HR, but it's a pretty marginal difference and smaller than equip bonuses.
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    edited October 2019
    Borrowed the bilethorn 14 from someone. Ran random trial first, got eDemo, did 18.6 mil total, bilethorn was 6.6% of total for around 1.25 mil.

    Post edited by stark760 on
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    edited October 2019
    Guess-timating on the proc totals of bilethorn somewhat. But the x2 procs are from the initial 5% and then 4 sec tic if enemy survives. Don't see that steel blitz counts when at training dummy, not sure about staff of flowers, but reg swings around 437(relentless, IBS, bllodletter, NSF, sure strike, and daily aval/slam totals). So if got initial 5% hit 437 times, the 4 secs procd 202 times. If the 5% initial hit for 2.5%, secondary procs were 4.1% roughly. That could have doubled+some if the 202 procs had been 437(46% of possible), would bump maybe to 8.87% increase from 4.1%(4.1%/202 hits x possible 437 hits). If every hit had proc'd the 4 sec tick, overall damage would've been around 11.37%....maybe haha.
    Post edited by stark760 on
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    If looking at relative increase, the 1.24 mil was 6.89% jump of the 17.4 mil.
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    edited October 2019
    Ran SVA in another random trial:

    7.06% of overall, I think to get a real test, you cant run artifact, dailies, owlbear, tenebrous, etc if you know they don't proc(not sure on dailies yet but think they do), and will add to damage total overall. Looking at swings, I figure 378 counted(relentless, bloodletter, IBS, NSF, sure strike, aval/slam daily). Only proc'd 504 times, so around 126 procs of the 4 sec delay poison(roughly 1/3 of time). If take off the damage that didn't proc the bilethorn(not sure about retaliation, the time lines up with exact hits for bilethorn, but not sure if that's swing or the 4 sec tic), of 1.175 mil from steel blitz and staff dps, 17.45 mil total. Bilethorn was 7.53%. Hard to test when you get dps from other areas that don't proc the enchant, but want to know what it does in your rotation along with those things.

    Relative increase would be (1.317mil/16.13mil) 8.16% without factoring steel blitz and staff. With them factored in against the 17.332 besides bilethorn, gain is 1.3175/17.332=7.6%
    If you do get 5% from the rank 14 bonus automatically, only 2.6% from the 40 mag/4 sec tics.
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    edited October 2019
    LOMM test on Barb:

    DPS was at 91 mil before last boss and 8 mil bilethorn. It did 4.8 mil of the 33 mil vs Trobriand, to push to 10% overall, and relative increase of 11.49%(best so far). In TOMM, and long fight, prob better if you could reproduce the 17% increase(4.8 mil on top of the 28.2 mil on Trobriand, but scorpions also helped that total I think, so might drop some vs single target). It might be better in some situations, long boss, but also risk that they put cooldown on procs or boss becomes(or is) immune.

    Took off owlbear and tenebrous for test(figure total they would've soaked up another 10% dps and skewed it). Few other thoughts, the 9.4 mil the staff did, doesn't porc the bilethorn, but it does crit, so vorpal would prob up that total some. I used 2 daily of aval/slam for 4.3 mil and 2 for crescendo for 2.25 mil, others might go other ways on that, but I use in situational to max DPS if I can. Not sure if columns in trobriand immune to proc . I figure around 1611 swings counted for proc(subtracted bile hits, steel blitz, doohickey, black ice mount power, retaliation, staff(wreath), focused retaliation, relentless speed) out of the 2374, so around 760 secondary procs.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    stark760 said:

    LOMM test on Barb:

    DPS was at 91 mil before last boss and 8 mil bilethorn. It did 4.8 mil of the 33 mil vs Trobriand, to push to 10% overall, and relative increase of 11.49%(best so far). In TOMM, and long fight, prob better if you could reproduce the 17% increase(4.8 mil on top of the 28.2 mil on Trobriand, but scorpions also helped that total I think, so might drop some vs single target). It might be better in some situations, long boss, but also risk that they put cooldown on procs or boss becomes(or is) immune.

    Took off owlbear and tenebrous for test(figure total they would've soaked up another 10% dps and skewed it). Few other thoughts, the 9.4 mil the staff did, doesn't porc the bilethorn, but it does crit, so vorpal would prob up that total some. I used 2 daily of aval/slam for 4.3 mil and 2 for crescendo for 2.25 mil, others might go other ways on that, but I use in situational to max DPS if I can. Not sure if columns in trobriand immune to proc . I figure around 1611 swings counted for proc(subtracted bile hits, steel blitz, doohickey, black ice mount power, retaliation, staff(wreath), focused retaliation, relentless speed) out of the 2374, so around 760 secondary procs.


    Sorry you provided so much data and then there is no summary. Please if you could summarise the bilethorn dps as ST, as we have repeatedly mentioned that it is ST specific weapon enchantment, so testing it on LOMM would actually show less dps than it is capable of doing so. AOE was never part of balancing anyway, otherwise Warlocks with a very good aoe wouldn't be so upset about their lackluster ST. Plus, please don't include staff of flowers into account, not everyone uses it for aoe and especially not on ST bosses. I use decanter for AOE and when i did my tests i used SSC as should be applicable for ST most of the times. This was the same case for Vorpal.

    The baphomet bonus on dummies would skew the results for vorpal but i had low power on preview anyway so the result would be similar on live (was lacking 20-30k power).

    My barb friend is getting minimum of 12% increase in his DPS with Bile whilst using a 1min ST boss rotation with maximum damage output. Another Barb friend of mine has tested his DPS with vorpal and bile and confirmed that he gets at least 7-10% more with Bile on ST. Yes, vorpal is best as overall for aoe and ST but Bile is Bis for ST for barb at the very least.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User

    Yeah, ACT sums both the bonus that all wep enchantments get and the Bilethorn-specific bonus into a single number, so you have to estimate how much is coming from the 2.5% and subtract. It's generally a bit smaller than exactly 2.5% of your damage.

    Did some new tests on HR. On long boss fights, R9 Bilethorn does closer to 6% (5.7% over 3 minutes, but the Orcus's full bonus is almost always up on training dummies) of my DPS according to ACT, so the procs do ~4%. With exactly 130% crit sev as HR, I get ~3% from R9 Vorpal's 10% crit sev. Bile does do a bit more than Vorpal on bosses for HR, but it's a pretty marginal difference and smaller than equip bonuses.


    The issue is, with Rank 12 Bile, i can show you my ACT logs where i am getting 3-4% overall Bile damage. I know the 4% bonus from r12 bile is a bit less on ACT but that would mean i get literally no bile dps in a 1 min rotation when ACT confirms i proc bile at least over 90x per minute (cleric).

    Seems really fishy but when i'll go home, i can post my ACT results.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User

    Yeah, ACT sums both the bonus that all wep enchantments get and the Bilethorn-specific bonus into a single number, so you have to estimate how much is coming from the 2.5% and subtract. It's generally a bit smaller than exactly 2.5% of your damage.

    Did some new tests on HR. On long boss fights, R9 Bilethorn does closer to 6% (5.7% over 3 minutes, but the Orcus's full bonus is almost always up on training dummies) of my DPS according to ACT, so the procs do ~4%. With exactly 130% crit sev as HR, I get ~3% from R9 Vorpal's 10% crit sev. Bile does do a bit more than Vorpal on bosses for HR, but it's a pretty marginal difference and smaller than equip bonuses.

    The reason i specifically made this post and as i have mentioned in my post title is that Bile is further giving away free dps to the already top 2 dominating DPS aka wiz and rogue. Let's focus on the wiz and below is a quote from TheFabricant when Vorpal was being nerfed on preview ( found pg 2 here https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1252196/damage-buffs-critical-severity-combat-advantage/p2 )

    "
    Assuming you have 75 base crit severity, 25% from potions etc and 100% combat advantage, on live Vorpal is a:
    (1+1+1.5*0.5)/(1+1+0.5)-1 = 10% increase excluding the DoT, ~12% if you include it.

    On preview, if you have 15% vorpal, 25% from potions and 75% base then it is a:

    (1+1.15*0.5)/(1+1*0.5)-1=5% increase, excluding the DoT.

    If you have Vorpal at 25% critical severity, it is a:
    (1+1.25*0.5)/(1+1*0.5)-1=8.3% increase, excluding the DoT. "


    So from above we can estimate that Wiz must be getting 6.65% dps from Vorpal and the ACT result shown by fabricant in the same comment shows he did 10% dps with bile with his wiz. So that is at least 3-4% more dps for wiz and rogues are presumably going to get more with their fast at wills and long CD encounters. This might seem minuscule but in the long run it just adds more dps to their existing high dps anyway.

    At this point and time, i am seriously discouraged. I was saving money to spend on nov sale but i have pretty much decided to spend that on Final fantasy 14.
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    edited October 2019
    sobi#1980 said:

    stark760 said:

    LOMM test on Barb:

    DPS was at 91 mil before last boss and 8 mil bilethorn. It did 4.8 mil of the 33 mil vs Trobriand, to push to 10% overall, and relative increase of 11.49%(best so far). In TOMM, and long fight, prob better if you could reproduce the 17% increase(4.8 mil on top of the 28.2 mil on Trobriand, but scorpions also helped that total I think, so might drop some vs single target). It might be better in some situations, long boss, but also risk that they put cooldown on procs or boss becomes(or is) immune.

    Took off owlbear and tenebrous for test(figure total they would've soaked up another 10% dps and skewed it). Few other thoughts, the 9.4 mil the staff did, doesn't porc the bilethorn, but it does crit, so vorpal would prob up that total some. I used 2 daily of aval/slam for 4.3 mil and 2 for crescendo for 2.25 mil, others might go other ways on that, but I use in situational to max DPS if I can. Not sure if columns in trobriand immune to proc . I figure around 1611 swings counted for proc(subtracted bile hits, steel blitz, doohickey, black ice mount power, retaliation, staff(wreath), focused retaliation, relentless speed) out of the 2374, so around 760 secondary procs.


    Sorry you provided so much data and then there is no summary. Please if you could summarise the bilethorn dps as ST, as we have repeatedly mentioned that it is ST specific weapon enchantment, so testing it on LOMM would actually show less dps than it is capable of doing so. AOE was never part of balancing anyway, otherwise Warlocks with a very good aoe wouldn't be so upset about their lackluster ST. Plus, please don't include staff of flowers into account, not everyone uses it for aoe and especially not on ST bosses. I use decanter for AOE and when i did my tests i used SSC as should be applicable for ST most of the times. This was the same case for Vorpal.

    The baphomet bonus on dummies would skew the results for vorpal but i had low power on preview anyway so the result would be similar on live (was lacking 20-30k power).

    My barb friend is getting minimum of 12% increase in his DPS with Bile whilst using a 1min ST boss rotation with maximum damage output. Another Barb friend of mine has tested his DPS with vorpal and bile and confirmed that he gets at least 7-10% more with Bile on ST. Yes, vorpal is best as overall for aoe and ST but Bile is Bis for ST for barb at the very least.
    Summary was in Demo, it did 6.6% overall, and increase of 7.87%(overall was 18.6 mil, took off the staff damage and baby owl bear for 17 mil total and then bilethorn 1.24 mil of, 1.24/15.75 mil)
    In SVA, it did 7.06% overall. Increase was 7.8%(took off the staff 400k) 1.32 mil on 18.25, so gain of 1.32/16.93(not excluding steel blitz damage just because it doesn't proc bile)
    In LOMM, it did 10.37% overall and increase was 12.66%(excluded 9.45 mil from staff and doohickey/black ice), 114.61 mil with 12.881 mil being done by the bilethorn, 12.881/101.73.

    Sounds like you want a TOMM test specific, with specific equip.
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    Yeah, ACT sums both the bonus that all wep enchantments get and the Bilethorn-specific bonus into a single number, so you have to estimate how much is coming from the 2.5% and subtract. It's generally a bit smaller than exactly 2.5% of your damage.

    Did some new tests on HR. On long boss fights, R9 Bilethorn does closer to 6% (5.7% over 3 minutes, but the Orcus's full bonus is almost always up on training dummies) of my DPS according to ACT, so the procs do ~4%. With exactly 130% crit sev as HR, I get ~3% from R9 Vorpal's 10% crit sev. Bile does do a bit more than Vorpal on bosses for HR, but it's a pretty marginal difference and smaller than equip bonuses.

    The reason i specifically made this post and as i have mentioned in my post title is that Bile is further giving away free dps to the already top 2 dominating DPS aka wiz and rogue. Let's focus on the wiz and below is a quote from TheFabricant when Vorpal was being nerfed on preview ( found pg 2 here https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1252196/damage-buffs-critical-severity-combat-advantage/p2 )

    "
    Assuming you have 75 base crit severity, 25% from potions etc and 100% combat advantage, on live Vorpal is a:
    (1+1+1.5*0.5)/(1+1+0.5)-1 = 10% increase excluding the DoT, ~12% if you include it.

    On preview, if you have 15% vorpal, 25% from potions and 75% base then it is a:

    (1+1.15*0.5)/(1+1*0.5)-1=5% increase, excluding the DoT.

    If you have Vorpal at 25% critical severity, it is a:
    (1+1.25*0.5)/(1+1*0.5)-1=8.3% increase, excluding the DoT. "


    So from above we can estimate that Wiz must be getting 6.65% dps from Vorpal and the ACT result shown by fabricant in the same comment shows he did 10% dps with bile with his wiz. So that is at least 3-4% more dps for wiz and rogues are presumably going to get more with their fast at wills and long CD encounters. This might seem minuscule but in the long run it just adds more dps to their existing high dps anyway.

    At this point and time, i am seriously discouraged. I was saving money to spend on nov sale but i have pretty much decided to spend that on Final fantasy 14.
    Not 100% sure, but the 10% increase on his chart for bilethorn was from live I think, and he said vorpal would be around 10% w/out DOT, 12% with the dot(guessing that the equated increase from the 5%) and 100% combat adv(he had flank in 87% of his test). The 15 and 25% crit sev computations looks to be formula on preview. Again, not 100%, or if that's concrete. Havent seen it announced that vorpal will drop to 15% from 20% max, but very possible. If they leave it at 20% and it splits the difference of his 5% and 8.33% and ends up at 6.67% and ~2% for DOT, that still isn't that far off of the 10% bilethorn on live. On live it looks like he's saying vorpal slightly better than bilethorn if it did 10%, and vorpal is around 12% on live. Not sure what bilethorn is doing on preview though or new formula changes to it.
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    Yeah, ACT sums both the bonus that all wep enchantments get and the Bilethorn-specific bonus into a single number, so you have to estimate how much is coming from the 2.5% and subtract. It's generally a bit smaller than exactly 2.5% of your damage.

    Did some new tests on HR. On long boss fights, R9 Bilethorn does closer to 6% (5.7% over 3 minutes, but the Orcus's full bonus is almost always up on training dummies) of my DPS according to ACT, so the procs do ~4%. With exactly 130% crit sev as HR, I get ~3% from R9 Vorpal's 10% crit sev. Bile does do a bit more than Vorpal on bosses for HR, but it's a pretty marginal difference and smaller than equip bonuses.


    The issue is, with Rank 12 Bile, i can show you my ACT logs where i am getting 3-4% overall Bile damage. I know the 4% bonus from r12 bile is a bit less on ACT but that would mean i get literally no bile dps in a 1 min rotation when ACT confirms i proc bile at least over 90x per minute (cleric).

    Seems really fishy but when i'll go home, i can post my ACT results.
    I think part of the problem there is isolating damage that is included in overall total(steel blitz), but does not proc the bilethorn, so the 5% would be smaller than 5% of overall. That's I took staff of flowers out when trying to figure out the procs and the DPS it gave for figuring out relative increase. Of the 124.22 mil in that LOMM, only 93.488 mil was from swings that proc the bilethorn, so 5% would be 4.6744 mil. Entire total of bile 12.881 mil, so 8.2066 mil done by the 4 sec procs. That's a slippery slope though IMO, to say how effective bilethorn is just on hits it counts, and exclude all DPS swings that don't proc it. 12.881/93.488 would be increase of 13.78%. Each player would have to sift through and subtract all swings and dps that don't proc bilethorn. Also, the staff looks like it procs crit's, so is it infl by vorpals crit sev? When measuring one weapon enchant vs another, if the vorpal increases the staff dps, how does that factor into what to exclude in relative increase, but only on what procs? If saying the bilethorn could've gotten 100% 4 sec, would equate to something like this on that LOMM and relative increase to the 93.488 mil only: 1611 swings/760 4 sec proc= 2.12 x more potential. If secondary procs already totaled 8.2066 mil, possible would be 17.4 mil total possible from secondary swings of bilethorn(DPS varies wildly, but just to show). If you got 17.4 mil and the 4.6744 mil, total from bilethorn would be roughly 22.075 mil, and swing relative increase to 23.6%(5% from rank 14 and 18.6% from 4 secs on 100 of swings). Saying that amount of increase though, requires to not look at DPS that can't proc the bilethorn, and look just at it's effectiveness. Not sure you can do that with the vorpal. The swings of the vorpal on it's damage totals on ACT should be just the 5%, you'd have to figure the sev % dps.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    edited October 2019
    stark760 said:

    sobi#1980 said:

    Yeah, ACT sums both the bonus that all wep enchantments get and the Bilethorn-specific bonus into a single number, so you have to estimate how much is coming from the 2.5% and subtract. It's generally a bit smaller than exactly 2.5% of your damage.

    Did some new tests on HR. On long boss fights, R9 Bilethorn does closer to 6% (5.7% over 3 minutes, but the Orcus's full bonus is almost always up on training dummies) of my DPS according to ACT, so the procs do ~4%. With exactly 130% crit sev as HR, I get ~3% from R9 Vorpal's 10% crit sev. Bile does do a bit more than Vorpal on bosses for HR, but it's a pretty marginal difference and smaller than equip bonuses.

    The reason i specifically made this post and as i have mentioned in my post title is that Bile is further giving away free dps to the already top 2 dominating DPS aka wiz and rogue. Let's focus on the wiz and below is a quote from TheFabricant when Vorpal was being nerfed on preview ( found pg 2 here https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1252196/damage-buffs-critical-severity-combat-advantage/p2 )

    "
    Assuming you have 75 base crit severity, 25% from potions etc and 100% combat advantage, on live Vorpal is a:
    (1+1+1.5*0.5)/(1+1+0.5)-1 = 10% increase excluding the DoT, ~12% if you include it.

    On preview, if you have 15% vorpal, 25% from potions and 75% base then it is a:

    (1+1.15*0.5)/(1+1*0.5)-1=5% increase, excluding the DoT.

    If you have Vorpal at 25% critical severity, it is a:
    (1+1.25*0.5)/(1+1*0.5)-1=8.3% increase, excluding the DoT. "


    So from above we can estimate that Wiz must be getting 6.65% dps from Vorpal and the ACT result shown by fabricant in the same comment shows he did 10% dps with bile with his wiz. So that is at least 3-4% more dps for wiz and rogues are presumably going to get more with their fast at wills and long CD encounters. This might seem minuscule but in the long run it just adds more dps to their existing high dps anyway.

    At this point and time, i am seriously discouraged. I was saving money to spend on nov sale but i have pretty much decided to spend that on Final fantasy 14.
    Not 100% sure, but the 10% increase on his chart for bilethorn was from live I think, and he said vorpal would be around 10% w/out DOT, 12% with the dot(guessing that the equated increase from the 5%) and 100% combat adv(he had flank in 87% of his test). The 15 and 25% crit sev computations looks to be formula on preview. Again, not 100%, or if that's concrete. Havent seen it announced that vorpal will drop to 15% from 20% max, but very possible. If they leave it at 20% and it splits the difference of his 5% and 8.33% and ends up at 6.67% and ~2% for DOT, that still isn't that far off of the 10% bilethorn on live. On live it looks like he's saying vorpal slightly better than bilethorn if it did 10%, and vorpal is around 12% on live. Not sure what bilethorn is doing on preview though or new formula changes to it.

    First of all, Vorpal is officially 20% Crit sev on Live. When Fabricant tested his vorpal damage it was 50% on the first occassion where he got 10% vorpal damage and 2% DOT. The other 2 examples use the new formula as you can see in the maths because he hasn't included CA (since CA and crit sev are now separate)

    So i am assuming the DOT means the initial 5% that vorpal gives but since it probably doesn't proc on every wiz ability, it is less. That would mean a difference of 1-2% for Wiz which seems like that there is no problem here because Vorpal will be superior if you consider AOE as well which vorpal outshines bile in.

    Rogue's are probably going to benefit a lot more depending on their choice of at-wills. If they use Gloaming Cut then they probably will be behind even wiz but Duelist Flurry will most likely make their dps with bile even above barb (0.15sec cast). That would probably give them around 5%-8% more bile dps than other classes. That is a big number as you are already aware of , it's basically adding another vorpal at max range.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    stark760 said:

    sobi#1980 said:

    Yeah, ACT sums both the bonus that all wep enchantments get and the Bilethorn-specific bonus into a single number, so you have to estimate how much is coming from the 2.5% and subtract. It's generally a bit smaller than exactly 2.5% of your damage.

    Did some new tests on HR. On long boss fights, R9 Bilethorn does closer to 6% (5.7% over 3 minutes, but the Orcus's full bonus is almost always up on training dummies) of my DPS according to ACT, so the procs do ~4%. With exactly 130% crit sev as HR, I get ~3% from R9 Vorpal's 10% crit sev. Bile does do a bit more than Vorpal on bosses for HR, but it's a pretty marginal difference and smaller than equip bonuses.


    The issue is, with Rank 12 Bile, i can show you my ACT logs where i am getting 3-4% overall Bile damage. I know the 4% bonus from r12 bile is a bit less on ACT but that would mean i get literally no bile dps in a 1 min rotation when ACT confirms i proc bile at least over 90x per minute (cleric).

    Seems really fishy but when i'll go home, i can post my ACT results.
    I think part of the problem there is isolating damage that is included in overall total(steel blitz), but does not proc the bilethorn, so the 5% would be smaller than 5% of overall. That's I took staff of flowers out when trying to figure out the procs and the DPS it gave for figuring out relative increase. Of the 124.22 mil in that LOMM, only 93.488 mil was from swings that proc the bilethorn, so 5% would be 4.6744 mil. Entire total of bile 12.881 mil, so 8.2066 mil done by the 4 sec procs. That's a slippery slope though IMO, to say how effective bilethorn is just on hits it counts, and exclude all DPS swings that don't proc it. 12.881/93.488 would be increase of 13.78%. Each player would have to sift through and subtract all swings and dps that don't proc bilethorn. Also, the staff looks like it procs crit's, so is it infl by vorpals crit sev? When measuring one weapon enchant vs another, if the vorpal increases the staff dps, how does that factor into what to exclude in relative increase, but only on what procs? If saying the bilethorn could've gotten 100% 4 sec, would equate to something like this on that LOMM and relative increase to the 93.488 mil only: 1611 swings/760 4 sec proc= 2.12 x more potential. If secondary procs already totaled 8.2066 mil, possible would be 17.4 mil total possible from secondary swings of bilethorn(DPS varies wildly, but just to show). If you got 17.4 mil and the 4.6744 mil, total from bilethorn would be roughly 22.075 mil, and swing relative increase to 23.6%(5% from rank 14 and 18.6% from 4 secs on 100 of swings). Saying that amount of increase though, requires to not look at DPS that can't proc the bilethorn, and look just at it's effectiveness. Not sure you can do that with the vorpal. The swings of the vorpal on it's damage totals on ACT should be just the 5%, you'd have to figure the sev % dps.

    I think you are making this more complicated than it is. All we need to compare is Bile v Vorpal for all classes because they are the only BiS choices for ST dps. If you get 10% Bile dps as shown by ACT, it does not matter how many swings that did not proc bile, ACT will take the dps from those respective swings into account. As a dps cleric, most of my dps is from encounter and even i get 160+ hits and only 90 proc. That's why when you test bile and vorpal, you should just do your normal ST rotation with artifact and daily (like we did) and treat it like a boss fight. ofcourse in a boss fight you have to dodge but just to keep things simple and fair, you stay still when testing both enchants. Since this test is not about the numbers but rather about comparison, as long as you keep the conditions the same for both weapon enchants, you should be able to reach a fair comparison for ST dps.

  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    I know it's 20% on live, but the only test that was shown was fabricant's live test for bilethorn. I didn't see one for the CW DPS for live or preview. I saw the 6.65% thrown out, but not sure where that's coming. The 1-2% reduction in the overall DPS of the 5% is also confusing, unless they're saying 1-2%/5% don't proc the DPS, that would 20-40% of the swings or DPS aren't a factor. The 15% and 25% crit sev he showed also doesn't include the combat adv multiplier. So if vorpal was doing 12% before changes, and is doing between 5%(15%) and 8.333%(25% crit sev), flank would then multiply times it as well, and that's not factored it looks like. When it's 12% with combat adv factored in on live, and 5-8.33% without it factored at 15% and 25% crit sev totals for the vorpal, you would think it would x2 as well, to push 15% crit(5% increase) to 10%, and 25%(8.333% increase) to 16.667%. On fabricant's test, the bilethorn did 10%, but also had 86% flank. Not factoring that into the vorpal %, but saying it's part of the bilethorn 10% on live is misleading.

    Not factoring in the swings that don't proc the 4 sec tick is the biggest swing in DPS, and why you want the ST test only. Because only 47% of the actual bilethorn hits proced the 4 sec in that LOMM, it lost 53% of the possible 4 sec, and increase of the 8.2 mil the 4 sec's did, to 17.4 million at 100% bile proc and then 4 sec proc as well, plus the 5% total of 4.67 mil. If the bilethorn doesn't have a huge rate of the 4 sec procing(id say better than 40-50% at least), it doesn't do that good, or better than vorpal. I still don't think saying the % increase it does to swings that proc bilethorn is accurate. People aren't going to change their rotation, I don't think, and remove steel blitz. Removing it from the DPS total or any other DPS from the total, to isolate the bilethorn % dps gain on only bilethorn procs, is not going to be accurate either. It might show max DPS % gain per swing to be 23.6%, but that's on 100% 4 sec procs, so x2 procs for every swing. Huge swing to go from actual 12.88 mil/111.34 mil for 11.57% gain, to saying under optimal circumstance and theoretical 100% 4 sec procs, and exclude all dps that doesn't help proc the bile and then figure relative increase, it could be 23.6%. Try and test it in TOMM with your decanter.
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    Another factor in taking the bilethorn over vorpal, is if you use the ebonized chest piece and the 10% power at 10 stacks. Hitting for 10% of your HP can already be hard to stack to 10. Removing the vorpal crit sev will make the hits weaker and make it harder to proc the stacks I would think.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    edited October 2019
    ...
    Post edited by sobi#1980 on
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    edited October 2019
    That was why I calculated the 93.488 million as the DPS that procd the bilethorn in that LOMM out of the 124 mil. That's important, because the 5% should be on every initial proc(swing). Of the 93.488 million, that 5% would be 4.6744 mil. The 2nd proc you bring up is the 4 sec, that isn't guaranteed unless they're alive, and goes up more than the 5% if have flank and crit. Around 1610 swings procd the 5%, but only another 760 gave the x2 in the dungeon and still added 8.2066 mil. That's why the number of times the 4 sec procs is the big damage swing. The 5% from vorpal rank 14 and bilethorn 14 should be close to equal, only swinging if certain hits can proc from one and not the other.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    stark760 said:

    That was why I calculated the 93.488 million as the DPS that procd the bilethorn in that LOMM out of the 124 mil. That's important, because the 5% should be on every initial proc(swing). Of the 93.488 million, that 5% would be 4.6744 mil. The 2nd proc you bring up is the 4 sec, that isn't guaranteed unless they're alive, and goes up more than the 5% if have flank and crit. Around 1610 swings procd the 5%, but only another 760 gave the x2 in the dungeon and still added 8.2066 mil. That's why the number of times the 4 sec procs is the big damage swing. The 5% from vorpal rank 14 and bilethorn 14 should be close to equal, only swinging if certain hits can proc from one and not the other.

    I do understand that in LOMM most swings won't give x2 as that would happen after 4 secs when mobs have already died, most of the times. So it begs the question, whether the 1st proc damage is automatically added to the let's say at will damage because i only ever saw 1 number float whenever i used an encounter etc. If so, that would make the 40mag a bit more because it is added with another big number and any %dmg buff would increase it more. Though the real factor is the x2 proc that is inflating Bile's dps.

    Why don't you try a rotation on a dummy yourself (preferably on live) and show us the results? I have already made a thread on this on preview bugs, but i need a live version of bile to test and i am broke af to buy one. Any rank at this point would be fine as long as we can show x2 proc is on live as well.
  • nl54#3191 nl54 Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    stark760 said:

    That was why I calculated the 93.488 million as the DPS that procd the bilethorn in that LOMM out of the 124 mil. That's important, because the 5% should be on every initial proc(swing). Of the 93.488 million, that 5% would be 4.6744 mil. The 2nd proc you bring up is the 4 sec, that isn't guaranteed unless they're alive, and goes up more than the 5% if have flank and crit. Around 1610 swings procd the 5%, but only another 760 gave the x2 in the dungeon and still added 8.2066 mil. That's why the number of times the 4 sec procs is the big damage swing. The 5% from vorpal rank 14 and bilethorn 14 should be close to equal, only swinging if certain hits can proc from one and not the other.

    I do understand that in LOMM most swings won't give x2 as that would happen after 4 secs when mobs have already died, most of the times. So it begs the question, whether the 1st proc damage is automatically added to the let's say at will damage because i only ever saw 1 number float whenever i used an encounter etc. If so, that would make the 40mag a bit more because it is added with another big number and any %dmg buff would increase it more. Though the real factor is the x2 proc that is inflating Bile's dps.

    Why don't you try a rotation on a dummy yourself (preferably on live) and show us the results? I have already made a thread on this on preview bugs, but i need a live version of bile to test and i am broke af to buy one. Any rank at this point would be fine as long as we can show x2 proc is on live as well.
    I'll let someone else prove it with an ACT log, but I can assure you that bile isn't double proccing on live, nor is it proccing off of Steel Blitz. I get the initial 5% and one DoT per swing, so it must be a preview only issue.

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  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    nl54#3191 said:

    sobi#1980 said:

    stark760 said:

    That was why I calculated the 93.488 million as the DPS that procd the bilethorn in that LOMM out of the 124 mil. That's important, because the 5% should be on every initial proc(swing). Of the 93.488 million, that 5% would be 4.6744 mil. The 2nd proc you bring up is the 4 sec, that isn't guaranteed unless they're alive, and goes up more than the 5% if have flank and crit. Around 1610 swings procd the 5%, but only another 760 gave the x2 in the dungeon and still added 8.2066 mil. That's why the number of times the 4 sec procs is the big damage swing. The 5% from vorpal rank 14 and bilethorn 14 should be close to equal, only swinging if certain hits can proc from one and not the other.

    I do understand that in LOMM most swings won't give x2 as that would happen after 4 secs when mobs have already died, most of the times. So it begs the question, whether the 1st proc damage is automatically added to the let's say at will damage because i only ever saw 1 number float whenever i used an encounter etc. If so, that would make the 40mag a bit more because it is added with another big number and any %dmg buff would increase it more. Though the real factor is the x2 proc that is inflating Bile's dps.

    Why don't you try a rotation on a dummy yourself (preferably on live) and show us the results? I have already made a thread on this on preview bugs, but i need a live version of bile to test and i am broke af to buy one. Any rank at this point would be fine as long as we can show x2 proc is on live as well.
    I'll let someone else prove it with an ACT log, but I can assure you that bile isn't double proccing on live, nor is it proccing off of Steel Blitz. I get the initial 5% and one DoT per swing, so it must be a preview only issue.

    No it's an issue with my brain. Apparently the initial 5% is also considered as a bile proc by ACT so instead of adding 1 bile proc, it adds 2 i.e. one small 5% initial DOT and then the 40mag. Vorpal on the other hand just does the initial 5% dot and the crit sev bonus is added on crit hits for encounters etc.

    I am sorry for causing all so much trouble. So in future if anyone does test Bile, do note that the number of bile procs should be halved to find out how many 40mag hits you did. That's why you can get as low as 2-3% extra damage from the 40mag hits when the bile procs on ACT might be a bit too much.

    In summary, everything is working perfectly fine on preview as well.
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    nl54#3191 said:

    sobi#1980 said:

    stark760 said:

    That was why I calculated the 93.488 million as the DPS that procd the bilethorn in that LOMM out of the 124 mil. That's important, because the 5% should be on every initial proc(swing). Of the 93.488 million, that 5% would be 4.6744 mil. The 2nd proc you bring up is the 4 sec, that isn't guaranteed unless they're alive, and goes up more than the 5% if have flank and crit. Around 1610 swings procd the 5%, but only another 760 gave the x2 in the dungeon and still added 8.2066 mil. That's why the number of times the 4 sec procs is the big damage swing. The 5% from vorpal rank 14 and bilethorn 14 should be close to equal, only swinging if certain hits can proc from one and not the other.

    I do understand that in LOMM most swings won't give x2 as that would happen after 4 secs when mobs have already died, most of the times. So it begs the question, whether the 1st proc damage is automatically added to the let's say at will damage because i only ever saw 1 number float whenever i used an encounter etc. If so, that would make the 40mag a bit more because it is added with another big number and any %dmg buff would increase it more. Though the real factor is the x2 proc that is inflating Bile's dps.

    Why don't you try a rotation on a dummy yourself (preferably on live) and show us the results? I have already made a thread on this on preview bugs, but i need a live version of bile to test and i am broke af to buy one. Any rank at this point would be fine as long as we can show x2 proc is on live as well.
    I'll let someone else prove it with an ACT log, but I can assure you that bile isn't double proccing on live, nor is it proccing off of Steel Blitz. I get the initial 5% and one DoT per swing, so it must be a preview only issue.

    Fairly certain the reason it shows x2 procs per swing, is 1 proc is the 5% and the other the 4 sec dot, and it combines the hits. On Sobi test, he hit 6 times, and it procd 12 times, 6 for the 5%, and 6 for the DOT. Biggest thing throwing off the totals I think in bigger tests, and is off by a few swings, is the bloodletter counting as a swing when it hurts you(maybe haha).
  • kopisusu36b#1324 kopisusu36b Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    "With that in mind, the order at which classes benefit the most from Bile (in my opinion) is:

    Barb > Rogue> Wiz> Ranger/Warlock>Fighter>Cleric"

    What?? No paladin class, i guess bile is useless for paladin
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    stark760 said:

    nl54#3191 said:

    sobi#1980 said:

    stark760 said:

    That was why I calculated the 93.488 million as the DPS that procd the bilethorn in that LOMM out of the 124 mil. That's important, because the 5% should be on every initial proc(swing). Of the 93.488 million, that 5% would be 4.6744 mil. The 2nd proc you bring up is the 4 sec, that isn't guaranteed unless they're alive, and goes up more than the 5% if have flank and crit. Around 1610 swings procd the 5%, but only another 760 gave the x2 in the dungeon and still added 8.2066 mil. That's why the number of times the 4 sec procs is the big damage swing. The 5% from vorpal rank 14 and bilethorn 14 should be close to equal, only swinging if certain hits can proc from one and not the other.

    I do understand that in LOMM most swings won't give x2 as that would happen after 4 secs when mobs have already died, most of the times. So it begs the question, whether the 1st proc damage is automatically added to the let's say at will damage because i only ever saw 1 number float whenever i used an encounter etc. If so, that would make the 40mag a bit more because it is added with another big number and any %dmg buff would increase it more. Though the real factor is the x2 proc that is inflating Bile's dps.

    Why don't you try a rotation on a dummy yourself (preferably on live) and show us the results? I have already made a thread on this on preview bugs, but i need a live version of bile to test and i am broke af to buy one. Any rank at this point would be fine as long as we can show x2 proc is on live as well.
    I'll let someone else prove it with an ACT log, but I can assure you that bile isn't double proccing on live, nor is it proccing off of Steel Blitz. I get the initial 5% and one DoT per swing, so it must be a preview only issue.

    Fairly certain the reason it shows x2 procs per swing, is 1 proc is the 5% and the other the 4 sec dot, and it combines the hits. On Sobi test, he hit 6 times, and it procd 12 times, 6 for the 5%, and 6 for the DOT. Biggest thing throwing off the totals I think in bigger tests, and is off by a few swings, is the bloodletter counting as a swing when it hurts you(maybe haha).

    Yh that was my stupidity because someone else in this post stated that bile has been proccing 2x for a while and that it was a bug. When i saw this on ACT , i didn't think twice and considered it to be a bug. I have amended my initial post will all of the findings we all did together, if you can read it then it will make sense.

    However, can you stark please provide us with ur barb 1 min rotation? I want to see how much bile % you get and we can do the maths at 50% crit to see how your bile damage compares to it. I just don't know a rogue who i can ask for a test.
  • sobi#1980 sobi Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    stark760 said:

    nl54#3191 said:

    sobi#1980 said:

    stark760 said:

    That was why I calculated the 93.488 million as the DPS that procd the bilethorn in that LOMM out of the 124 mil. That's important, because the 5% should be on every initial proc(swing). Of the 93.488 million, that 5% would be 4.6744 mil. The 2nd proc you bring up is the 4 sec, that isn't guaranteed unless they're alive, and goes up more than the 5% if have flank and crit. Around 1610 swings procd the 5%, but only another 760 gave the x2 in the dungeon and still added 8.2066 mil. That's why the number of times the 4 sec procs is the big damage swing. The 5% from vorpal rank 14 and bilethorn 14 should be close to equal, only swinging if certain hits can proc from one and not the other.

    I do understand that in LOMM most swings won't give x2 as that would happen after 4 secs when mobs have already died, most of the times. So it begs the question, whether the 1st proc damage is automatically added to the let's say at will damage because i only ever saw 1 number float whenever i used an encounter etc. If so, that would make the 40mag a bit more because it is added with another big number and any %dmg buff would increase it more. Though the real factor is the x2 proc that is inflating Bile's dps.

    Why don't you try a rotation on a dummy yourself (preferably on live) and show us the results? I have already made a thread on this on preview bugs, but i need a live version of bile to test and i am broke af to buy one. Any rank at this point would be fine as long as we can show x2 proc is on live as well.
    I'll let someone else prove it with an ACT log, but I can assure you that bile isn't double proccing on live, nor is it proccing off of Steel Blitz. I get the initial 5% and one DoT per swing, so it must be a preview only issue.

    Fairly certain the reason it shows x2 procs per swing, is 1 proc is the 5% and the other the 4 sec dot, and it combines the hits. On Sobi test, he hit 6 times, and it procd 12 times, 6 for the 5%, and 6 for the DOT. Biggest thing throwing off the totals I think in bigger tests, and is off by a few swings, is the bloodletter counting as a swing when it hurts you(maybe haha).

    Me and my Barb friends were talking about this. Apparently, on all of his bile tests he never got 50% crit and 30-35% is the norm. I checked all the ACT logs that i had saved and bile was never at 50%. For barb, who brocs bile over 200x the crit % chance should balance out on 50% or close to it (most of the times). I am not sure if this will increase bile %dmg but what it is doing is reducing the overall crit% value for bile in comparison to vorpal.
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