They could have simply upped some of the additive selfbuffs by a notch. Right at the start of Mod 16. Some developers do small adjustments like that all the time, once a certain amount of balance has achieved. But it's all spoiled milk now anyways. NW devs seem to prefer larger changes which isn't bad per se either, it just always introduces... new "challenges"...
Both solutions have their advantages and disadvantages. Personally I'm in the swift and small changes camp, since you at least basically can't break anything... On the other hand the change to damage formula and unifying selfbuffs of all classes is definitely welcome even if it indeed looks like it's not _the_ solution for everything.
And yes, I agree 5% or less margin on sustained single target would be preferable. There will always be differences for other situations and obviously classes with 2 DPS paragons have a lot more tools available while the other classes powers are more situational or downright suboptimal in many cases (e.g. Sunburst, Bastion, Chains on a DPS Cleric even with massive changes they would probably still always be horrible)
I think i need be more specific here and stop beating around the bush. Right now, the only argument i can see from the other side is that, "at this stage, something might be bugged". That's it! They cannot disapprove the fact that the disparity is even bigger now. It could be that wiz might be doing more damage than intended but if vice versa then that there is an issue. Notwithstanding that, the disparity is larger even after the introduction of this formula, which was thought to be the magical formula, cure it all solution. But as it stands, that doesn't seem to be the case and it actually affects cryptic's credibility because it shows that they never intended non-dps classes to be equal in dps, eventhough they clearly stated that all dps paragons will be treated individually. My only argument is that the disparity would have been much more closer than before but instead it seems to get larger. I don't want to be the bringer of sorrowful tides, but this needs to be clarified now that this whole damage formula was all about bringing the margin closer than it currently is. It remains to be seen but look at Warlock thread over there, you'll get the full picture then.
1
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I can speak as a dps cleric that nothing currently is bugged of my powers, at least those that i am using for my rotations. Seems to be the case for the Barb as well right now. Arcanist however has had issues in the past and even more so on preview, at this point and time.
.
Nothing is bugged you say? I am pretty sure if I test Cleric I will find something, I just can't be bothered because so much is broken that ANY comparison at all is misleading. Gaining 100% increased damage on Wizard for using a Control power for example, or another 100% from using a daily. As for Barb:
I main a dps cleric, i know my rotations and encounter far better than you think. I specifically stated that nothing is bugged with the encounters i used according to ACT, not that the class itself has no bugs at all. Barb on the other hand i do not main but from that ACT pic, it seems like a bug that reduces their damage. If so, you actually support my findings.
No, it isn't a bug that reduces their damage, its a bug that increases it by far more than intended. Ordinary damage in that picture - 473.6. After Battle fury - 2889.1. That is a 510% damage buff, which is 500% more than intended. The buff is used at time = 19:32:53 and it expires at 19:33:01. In case you were not aware, the effectiveness of this buff decreases over time. But considering you have failed to read any of the bug reports in this thread, I think this might be a little bit beyond your scope.
Wow! Every time i start saving up to upgrade one of my r13 weapon enchants to r14 you guys nerf it. The need for constant rebuilding has become all consuming and no fun unless you are a dev being paid to testpilot all this HAMSTER constantly. Unfortunately the trend to make NW a constant endless respec project is killing the ability to simply PLAY the game. Perhaps it is a scam to make everyone cash shop the current temporary semi effective builds for the 30-60 days they will temporarily be somewhat effective before everything gets nerfed and adjusted and balanced again so we have to start all over again. The development team is demonstrating exactly why trying to keep even one or two characters temporarily semi current is throwing money and time away. Thank you for showing me once again that the effort to participate in NW content consistantly is a waste of time. Ive got youtube to watch. Its sad that it is actually MORE fun to WATCH someone who has spent lots of time and money on NW than it is to actually play NW and constantly have the rug pulled out from under us. This game has a lot of potential. This is a very sad state of affairs. Please give NW some freaking stability and stop nerfing everything. Just let us PLAY the game.
P. S. Vorpal lower than 30% crit sev is ridiculous. Stop breaking the game!
I can speak as a dps cleric that nothing currently is bugged of my powers, at least those that i am using for my rotations. Seems to be the case for the Barb as well right now. Arcanist however has had issues in the past and even more so on preview, at this point and time.
.
Nothing is bugged you say? I am pretty sure if I test Cleric I will find something, I just can't be bothered because so much is broken that ANY comparison at all is misleading. Gaining 100% increased damage on Wizard for using a Control power for example, or another 100% from using a daily. As for Barb:
I main a dps cleric, i know my rotations and encounter far better than you think. I specifically stated that nothing is bugged with the encounters i used according to ACT, not that the class itself has no bugs at all. Barb on the other hand i do not main but from that ACT pic, it seems like a bug that reduces their damage. If so, you actually support my findings.
No, it isn't a bug that reduces their damage, its a bug that increases it by far more than intended. Ordinary damage in that picture - 473.6. After Battle fury - 2889.1. That is a 510% damage buff, which is 500% more than intended. The buff is used at time = 19:32:53 and it expires at 19:33:01. In case you were not aware, the effectiveness of this buff decreases over time. But considering you have failed to read any of the bug reports in this thread, I think this might be a little bit beyond your scope.
I don't know if 30% can be justified with the bugs, as you have stated both classes are doing more than intended. We'll see in the future.
> Nothing is bugged you say? I am pretty sure if I test Cleric I will find something, I just can't be bothered because so much is broken that ANY comparison at all is misleading. Gaining 100% increased damage on Wizard for using a Control power for example, or another 100% from using a daily. As for Barb:(Quote)
I think i need be more specific here and stop beating around the bush. Right now, the only argument i can see from the other side is that, "at this stage, something might be bugged". That's it! They cannot disapprove the fact that the disparity is even bigger now. It could be that wiz might be doing more damage than intended but if vice versa then that there is an issue. Notwithstanding that, the disparity is larger even after the introduction of this formula, which was thought to be the magical formula, cure it all solution. But as it stands, that doesn't seem to be the case and it actually affects cryptic's credibility because it shows that they never intended non-dps classes to be equal in dps, eventhough they clearly stated that all dps paragons will be treated individually. My only argument is that the disparity would have been much more closer than before but instead it seems to get larger.
Due to how the new formula works hopefully it will make it easier to adjust selfbuffs or magnitude of powers. Before if they adjusted Ranger powers everything benefitted from multiple selfbuffs, whereas on a Barb or Cleric any change would have had a smaller effect. Now only the amount of selfbuffs is different.
Warlock is the only class I never really played, so I can't say much about what's going on with them, but it looks like they made adjustments downwards despite the fact that Warlock wasn't exactly overperforming before. You'd expect the opposite and it would also be more fun testing.
I don't want to be the bringer of sorrowful tides, but this needs to be clarified now that this whole damage formula was all about bringing the margin closer than it currently is. It remains to be seen but look at Warlock thread over there, you'll get the full picture then.
Well, if balance is not the plan devs should just stop working on it and spend more time relocating Sergeant Knox and Sybella in PE!
Nevertheless the new formula is still a great opportunity even if it's not a magical solution right out of the gate. If the classes were balanced before (other then having different types of selfbuffs) it might have worked better.
I do not care how long you play the game, how many guides that I never used or trust did you published, I do not owe you anything so do not speak in my name. Do any of you main a CW? -I do. The Demon Lord set does not give 10 , does not give 8 , in fact does not give 3% in reality. -There is power bonus gear that outshines damage bonus gear. -Who uses a passive for a daily?! Who, when one has 3 daily in a dungeon run? . Do you know that the game is not a single target game? It is not Counter Strike or something. 1.CW have 40 magnitude At- will ! 2.And that At- will does not Critical Strike. Does not even proc runes in runic encounters. 3.And that At-will gets stuck 10% at the time. 4.We do not have any AoE but 1 that has 200 magnitude and 15 sec cool down.
Who keeps pushing the CW nerfing are out of their mind. In the real game we are dead weight already because we can not clear trash mobs and trash mobs are what takes time in a dungeon. And at the Bosses we must not DPS to not bugg them or send them into deadly mechanics. So what am I at use for in a party?
If you convince the developers to change all the game for ToMM, you might as well offer yourself as support DPS for CW in any content from now on because it will take more time for the CW than for a tank to finish a quest.
There are many things that does not work either as the developers state , either as you state.
If you want single target better DPS , I want a decent AoE just like you have. Not to say that I am suppose to be able to do crowed control. .
I agree with your MAIN point. Wizard does not need to be nerfed. It's pretty much at the sweet spot right now, just needs some broken mechanics fixed and some of the skills buffed.. the ones that NO one uses. That said, the proccing, Rimefire, smoulder, and AP gain have always been hosed up. They should continue cleaning it up even if it makes a nerf here or there.
I am guessing you run Thaumaturge mostly. If so, consider switching to an Arcanist build with SS & Arcane Presence or whatever. Make sure to select the feat for 10 stacks of Arcane, and also the one that gives +40 magnitude to ice skills. IT and ST are of course the back bone of the build and so awesome AoE. Use Disintegrate (master slot) + Entangling force for the last slot. There are lots of small situational variants and replacements available such as repel for boss fights. Max your defense & put a little buff into your health and you become a living nuclear torpedo with decent versatility and a unique role.
3
tassedethe13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 806Arc User
What's the point to up CW for trash packs when trash packs already melt fast ?
I run my CW-alt and I have no issues (not the slightes) in terms of survivability doing solocontent, mobs freeze die or freeze and die in short. That's where my dps Fighter has far more problems, esp. in downscaled content/dungeons where I got onehitted out of nowhere several times (felt like bug alert tbh)
Whats the point of replying before reading? CW must do solo content too. CW must be useful in party. At trash we are useless , at Bosses we must stand around to avoid DPSing Durfi, Nostura, Trobriand right into deadly mechanics or bugg Kabal and so on. You can not talk about total damage output of one class outside of the playing content. Lets hit 1 dummy with all we have it is not real testing. .
Please stop wasting your energy and ours as well. No one wants a wiz nerf, the best way of testing dps is on a 1min dummy test with same conditions for all classes but ST (obviously equal gear and skill ceiling players). For Aoe you can do the maths but then you won't be able to take into account the cast time and the amount of people you hit on average.
So ST tests are appropriate when you are comparing dps because they are convenient to test. Arcanist just seems to be the best ST dps dealer live right now. This sole purpose of having the same formula was to allow the dev's to balance classes and presumably lower the margin between pure dps and non-meta dps. It only makes sense to use wiz as an ST -dps comparison. Right now there are too many bugs so it's better to wait for more updates before testing. But i do agree that Thaum is beyond trash right now and needs help. But right now thaum has way too many bugs live to even compare. Once the bugs are sorted, a good comparison can be made with other classes.
Post edited by sobi#1980 on
1
tassedethe13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 806Arc User
Whats the point of replying before reading? CW must do solo content too. CW must be useful in party. At trash we are useless , at Bosses we must stand around to avoid DPSing Durfi, Nostura, Trobriand right into deadly mechanics or bugg Kabal and so on. You can not talk about total damage output of one class outside of the playing content. Lets hit 1 dummy with all we have it is not real testing. .
I read, but everybody has to deal with Durfi, Nostura, Trobriand mechanics... not only CW. You got it easier than other classes due to your shift range, yet nobody is asking for a nerf of shift range, that would be stupid logic. CW are able to do solo content, CW are useful to team.
If you aren't the top DPS as a CW in dungeons, you aren't playing it properly. Maybe read some guides or look at some research. Following your own head gets you nowhere and neither does being the best keyboard warrior. And when making statements, maybe provide proof. Does certain stuff not work the way we want them to work? Sure Does the lack of feedback anger us sometimes? Sure Have we ever had balance between DPS classes? Not that I know of, but we work with what we are given
2. - We all have to do with Boss mechanics- Yes, but if I am only good at single target and I can not DPS the Boss, it is so hard to understand that I am at disadvantage? .
Please tell me how being good at aoe would help ? If you cannot attack you cannot attack. And it's the same thing for everybody, aoe or single target dps, is it hard to understand?
Btw you are not at disadvantage because you are range and can attack right after a dodge, thing that melee can't do every time.
> @magdalena#1708 said: > I do not care how long you play the game, how many guides that I never used or trust did you published, I do not owe you anything so do not speak in my name. > Do any of you main a CW? > -I do. The Demon Lord set does not give 10 , does not give 8 , in fact does not give 3% in reality. > -There is power bonus gear that outshines damage bonus gear. > -Who uses a passive for a daily?! Who, when one has 3 daily in a dungeon run? > . > Do you know that the game is not a single target game? It is not Counter Strike or something. > 1.CW have 40 magnitude At- will ! > 2.And that At- will does not Critical Strike. Does not even proc runes in runic encounters. > 3.And that At-will gets stuck 10% at the time. > 4.We do not have any AoE but 1 that has 200 magnitude and 15 sec cool down. > > Who keeps pushing the CW nerfing are out of their mind. > In the real game we are dead weight already because we can not clear trash mobs and trash mobs are what takes time in a dungeon. > And at the Bosses we must not DPS to not bugg them or send them into deadly mechanics. > So what am I at use for in a party? > > If you convince the developers to change all the game for ToMM, you might as well offer yourself as support DPS for CW in any content from now on because it will take more time for the CW than for a tank to finish a quest. > > There are many things that does not work either as the developers state , either as you state. > > If you want single target better DPS , I want a decent AoE just like you have. Not to say that I am suppose to be able to do crowed control. > .
You seem to be very familiar with wizard or at least more than sharp. I'm currently using Sharp's guide but I suppose you're able to outperform him. Do you happen to have any build or guide you could share with me? Thank you very much
4
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited October 2019
How is a CW squishier than an HR, or a TR?
Cap your defense, and invest in barkshield, hp, and incoming healing, like everyone else. Still have issues, then slot shield on tab and tank better than tanks.
Wizard squishy? It's tanker than a Fighter or a Paladin in pvp... When i pug REQ and a decent Wizard is in the group, he's rushing all the dungeon without issues like a walk in the park.
1.- I run my CW alt and it is ok. - WE are talking here either do nerf CW, either to buff other classes for -balancing-. How the heck is balancing only by buffing classes that outDPS CW right now in dungeons ? Oh, pls, do not post that your CW is the paingiver at the same level gear up. you know it is a lie.
2. - We all have to do with Boss mechanics- Yes, but if I am only good at single target and I can not DPS the Boss, it is so hard to understand that I am at disadvantage?
3. -Testing on dummy makes sense.- Yes, it does, in phase 1. Then go solo in phase 2 and see how many mobs packs there are , how long it takes to finish the dungeon for each class. I do not even dare to say to do the same dungeon in different party combinations bc it is obvious I am talking to the walls.
4. -CW are at advantage for being range. - No, they are not. They are ranged bc they are squishy. Choose 1 advantage people , you just can not have it all in 1 build.
But if you want to have it all in 1 build, I want to have at least 2 builds that are useful.
Make the Thaumaturge able to crowed control as it was suppose to do. .
It's usually logical for games to focus balance around the latest addition to the game, in this case, ToMM. Considering ToMM's difficulty and clear rate compared to the rest of the content though, I'll address LoMM, mSP, ToNG, etc.
Any geared dps with half a hand would force Arcturia, Nostura, Orcus and other annoying bosses™ into phase before finishing their rotation. It doesn't really matter how potent your damage is, you're never going to use it fully; I'm guessing that's your first argument. While that's true, it's irrelevant to class balancing. There are 2 ways to go about balancing with a type of content in mind. You either balance for the whole community, or the target audience. Take LoMM, for example. IL 20k+. That would mean that there are ~3 groups of people running LoMM, the barely equipped ones (20-21k IL), the "target audience" for LoMM (21k - 23k), and the endgame players (23k+). The first 2 groups don't have the damage to force phases on most bosses, so, in those cases, the concept of an Arcanist CW having great ST damage and not so good AoE stands. You win on the one, you lose on the other. On the last group, it really doesn't matter. Saying other classes "outdps CW" because you are dps racing in LoMM, as a 24k CW vs a 24k HR/TR means nothing.
Finally, there's the sole concept of AoE vs ST. When was the last time your group wiped to a camp? When was the last time people abandoned the instance because you couldn't get past a group of mobs? By design, being good at ST is more useful than being good in AoE. Mobs are supposed to fill the gaps between bosses, not the other way around.
Considering range; Having range is (also by design) more advantageous than not. However, due to the fact that in NW having range is useless more often than not (since you'll be forced into melee range for various reasons either way), losing too much as a tradeoff for having something you can't use would be unfair, yes. Thankfully, that's not the case, at all. A CW is just as tanky as any other dps class. At bis, you can have 80k defense, 5x tacticals, bark, 320k HP and 50ishK of the other defensive stats without sacrificing an inch of your dps. Saying "ew, defense doesnt add to my damage" and staying on the red areas to get an extra hit off for paingiver doesn't make your class squishy, sorry.
To clarify; I'm not saying CW needs nerfs, buffs, or that the game is balanced in any way. My opinion is for another post. I'm saying that your reasoning behind your opinion is not accurate.
I would like to thank everyone who went in and found bugs with this over the weekend. We are currently preparing fixes for the powers that were still 1+ and are getting the 1+ change to combat severity into the next build.
I can never say for sure when the next preview build will go up, but we are hoping to get another build up soon so that the changes can be looked at without the issues that were found being in the way.
Vorpal will be changed to be 20% at rank 14 with this same update.
Will you guys be changing the formula for healing as well when it comes to critical severity? Because this will change to Vorpal will hit healers harder than DPS if that’s the case
Will you guys be changing the formula for healing as well when it comes to critical severity? Because this will change to Vorpal will hit healers harder than DPS if that’s the case
It is changed for healers as well, just not clarified in the post.
Comments
P. S. Vorpal lower than 30% crit sev is ridiculous. Stop breaking the game!
Warlock is the only class I never really played, so I can't say much about what's going on with them, but it looks like they made adjustments downwards despite the fact that Warlock wasn't exactly overperforming before. You'd expect the opposite and it would also be more fun testing. Well, if balance is not the plan devs should just stop working on it and spend more time relocating Sergeant Knox and Sybella in PE!
Nevertheless the new formula is still a great opportunity even if it's not a magical solution right out of the gate. If the classes were balanced before (other then having different types of selfbuffs) it might have worked better.
I am guessing you run Thaumaturge mostly. If so, consider switching to an Arcanist build with SS & Arcane Presence or whatever. Make sure to select the feat for 10 stacks of Arcane, and also the one that gives +40 magnitude to ice skills. IT and ST are of course the back bone of the build and so awesome AoE. Use Disintegrate (master slot) + Entangling force for the last slot. There are lots of small situational variants and replacements available such as repel for boss fights. Max your defense & put a little buff into your health and you become a living nuclear torpedo with decent versatility and a unique role.
So ST tests are appropriate when you are comparing dps because they are convenient to test. Arcanist just seems to be the best ST dps dealer live right now. This sole purpose of having the same formula was to allow the dev's to balance classes and presumably lower the margin between pure dps and non-meta dps. It only makes sense to use wiz as an ST -dps comparison. Right now there are too many bugs so it's better to wait for more updates before testing. But i do agree that Thaum is beyond trash right now and needs help. But right now thaum has way too many bugs live to even compare. Once the bugs are sorted, a good comparison can be made with other classes.
You got it easier than other classes due to your shift range, yet nobody is asking for a nerf of shift range, that would be stupid logic.
CW are able to do solo content, CW are useful to team.
Does certain stuff not work the way we want them to work? Sure
Does the lack of feedback anger us sometimes? Sure
Have we ever had balance between DPS classes? Not that I know of, but we work with what we are given
Btw you are not at disadvantage because you are range and can attack right after a dodge, thing that melee can't do every time.
> I do not care how long you play the game, how many guides that I never used or trust did you published, I do not owe you anything so do not speak in my name.
> Do any of you main a CW?
> -I do. The Demon Lord set does not give 10 , does not give 8 , in fact does not give 3% in reality.
> -There is power bonus gear that outshines damage bonus gear.
> -Who uses a passive for a daily?! Who, when one has 3 daily in a dungeon run?
> .
> Do you know that the game is not a single target game? It is not Counter Strike or something.
> 1.CW have 40 magnitude At- will !
> 2.And that At- will does not Critical Strike. Does not even proc runes in runic encounters.
> 3.And that At-will gets stuck 10% at the time.
> 4.We do not have any AoE but 1 that has 200 magnitude and 15 sec cool down.
>
> Who keeps pushing the CW nerfing are out of their mind.
> In the real game we are dead weight already because we can not clear trash mobs and trash mobs are what takes time in a dungeon.
> And at the Bosses we must not DPS to not bugg them or send them into deadly mechanics.
> So what am I at use for in a party?
>
> If you convince the developers to change all the game for ToMM, you might as well offer yourself as support DPS for CW in any content from now on because it will take more time for the CW than for a tank to finish a quest.
>
> There are many things that does not work either as the developers state , either as you state.
>
> If you want single target better DPS , I want a decent AoE just like you have. Not to say that I am suppose to be able to do crowed control.
> .
You seem to be very familiar with wizard or at least more than sharp. I'm currently using Sharp's guide but I suppose you're able to outperform him. Do you happen to have any build or guide you could share with me? Thank you very much
Cap your defense, and invest in barkshield, hp, and incoming healing, like everyone else. Still have issues, then slot shield on tab and tank better than tanks.
Or let the tank grab aggro.
What solo phase 2? What mobs?
Any geared dps with half a hand would force Arcturia, Nostura, Orcus and other annoying bosses™ into phase before finishing their rotation. It doesn't really matter how potent your damage is, you're never going to use it fully; I'm guessing that's your first argument.
While that's true, it's irrelevant to class balancing. There are 2 ways to go about balancing with a type of content in mind. You either balance for the whole community, or the target audience.
Take LoMM, for example. IL 20k+. That would mean that there are ~3 groups of people running LoMM, the barely equipped ones (20-21k IL), the "target audience" for LoMM (21k - 23k), and the endgame players (23k+).
The first 2 groups don't have the damage to force phases on most bosses, so, in those cases, the concept of an Arcanist CW having great ST damage and not so good AoE stands. You win on the one, you lose on the other.
On the last group, it really doesn't matter. Saying other classes "outdps CW" because you are dps racing in LoMM, as a 24k CW vs a 24k HR/TR means nothing.
Finally, there's the sole concept of AoE vs ST. When was the last time your group wiped to a camp? When was the last time people abandoned the instance because you couldn't get past a group of mobs? By design, being good at ST is more useful than being good in AoE. Mobs are supposed to fill the gaps between bosses, not the other way around.
Considering range; Having range is (also by design) more advantageous than not. However, due to the fact that in NW having range is useless more often than not (since you'll be forced into melee range for various reasons either way), losing too much as a tradeoff for having something you can't use would be unfair, yes. Thankfully, that's not the case, at all. A CW is just as tanky as any other dps class.
At bis, you can have 80k defense, 5x tacticals, bark, 320k HP and 50ishK of the other defensive stats without sacrificing an inch of your dps. Saying "ew, defense doesnt add to my damage" and staying on the red areas to get an extra hit off for paingiver doesn't make your class squishy, sorry.
To clarify; I'm not saying CW needs nerfs, buffs, or that the game is balanced in any way. My opinion is for another post. I'm saying that your reasoning behind your opinion is not accurate.
I can never say for sure when the next preview build will go up, but we are hoping to get another build up soon so that the changes can be looked at without the issues that were found being in the way.
Vorpal will be changed to be 20% at rank 14 with this same update.
Alts:
Saxy Healz Paladin (Oathkeeper) [Xbox and PC]
Saxon Ranger (Warden)
Yuri Wizard (Thaumaturge)
Member of the guild: Legacy (Xbox) and Strawberry Yakuza (PC)