easy Solution for Masterwork be viewable every Mod

onlymat · October 2019

It´s sad that Masterwork is godlike for 1 Mod and then dead for 3 or more mods.

My Solution would be:

Make every Weapon and most gear possible to do a Masterwork Version of it.
Give it 10 % more stats than the "normal " gear and for weapons see example.

Example:

You run ME and you drop Alabaster Weapon
With this drop you unlocked the ability to make Alabaster Weapons in Masterwork - so you need to drop it once to be able to make a better Masterwork Version of it for all classes.

For Weapons it should add 10% more stats and the bonus should be a little better - the bonus on alabster weapons stack 10 times - let it stack 12 times for Masterwork Version.

Benefits:

Easier for Developers to maintain:

If you do a new piece of gear - you can only copy it give it 10% more stats define what Masterwork lvl you need to have to make it AND what resources it needs - far touched residuum for example is not needed for anything now - it could be usefull again to drop Mantikor things in Fangbreaker and to get the residuum from MSP. It would make content usefull again

Better for Masterworkers:

Masterworkers can now get better Weapons, Gear and so on EVERY Mod. They can decide what to run to drop it once - because it needs to drop once to builded.

Better for the community:

If I can´t run a dungeon because I´m too weak or I don´t like it - I can still buy the gear what you can get even a better Version of it - this will be expensive but hey it was really expensive to get MW up.
If the Mantikore things and the Far touched Residuum is neede to build MW Weapons or gear or whatever all runs make sense again. On every run I have a chance to drop something what can give me alot of AD when selling so I can upgrade my toon to run higher lvl Dungeons.
Even if the loot is not the best there is a small additional chance drop something expensive

What do you think?

darthpotater · October 2019

In my opinion Masterwork should never be able to craft gear. I find sad that BIS weapons or armor is done by crafting (and I am a mastercrafter myself dont think I say this because I cant).

I think masterwork should be used to make alternative complementary items like we have now in jewels and kits. Consumable items that are needed by everyone and cycles the economy and makes your character better but not breaking the essence of getting the best items in dungeons / trials.

Items like enchantment items for overload slots, like Greater corrupt black ice enchantment but with more viable versions.

Scrolls of life, scrolls of protection or other consumables to help in tough battles

Potent potions instead to give them in events farmed by bots could be done in masterwork, etc.

just my 2 cents

isaacorion · October 2019

Problem: Lionheart set
What happens when a person acquires the Lionheart set as MC recipe?
On top of first having to clear ToMM enough to get the set as drops or buy the set, you then have to go and Mastercraft a new set just because MC Lionheart is better than base Lionheart.
And then that opens a whole new puddle of trouble if MC Lionheart is unbound: people can now simply buy the strongest weapons from the hardest trial instead of practicing and running the trial for the set
or if the set is Acct Bound: if you ran the Trial for Lionheart and unlock the recipe for MC Lionheart but are not a crafter, you'll never get to upgrade to the better MC Lionheart.

In my opinion a lot of the problems with Mastercraft falling off would be solved if Mastercraft was added at the start of a new gear cycle and not at the end. (for example Titansteel stuff should have been added with M10, not Mod 11.5 with Chult arriving just a bit afterward)

onlymat · October 2019

darthpotater said:
In my opinion Masterwork should never be able to craft gear. I find sad that BIS weapons or armor is done by crafting (and I am a mastercrafter myself dont think I say this because I cant).

I think masterwork should be used to make alternative complementary items like we have now in jewels and kits. Consumable items that are needed by everyone and cycles the economy and makes your character better but not breaking the essence of getting the best items in dungeons / trials.

Items like enchantment items for overload slots, like Greater corrupt black ice enchantment but with more viable versions.

Scrolls of life, scrolls of protection or other consumables to help in tough battles

Potent potions instead to give them in events farmed by bots could be done in masterwork, etc.

just my 2 cents

you need something what people want to buy

onlymat · October 2019

isaacorion#1994 said:
Problem: Lionheart set
What happens when a person acquires the Lionheart set as MC recipe?
On top of first having to clear ToMM enough to get the set as drops or buy the set, you then have to go and Mastercraft a new set just because MC Lionheart is better than base Lionheart.
And then that opens a whole new puddle of trouble if MC Lionheart is unbound: people can now simply buy the strongest weapons from the hardest trial instead of practicing and running the trial for the set
or if the set is Acct Bound: if you ran the Trial for Lionheart and unlock the recipe for MC Lionheart but are not a crafter, you'll never get to upgrade to the better MC Lionheart.

In my opinion a lot of the problems with Mastercraft falling off would be solved if Mastercraft was added at the start of a new gear cycle and not at the end. (for example Titansteel stuff should have been added with M10, not Mod 11.5 with Chult arriving just a bit afterward)

exactly this. Its very hard to run and drop stuff. The better UNBOUND Set would cost Millions - and if someone is willing to pay - why not. It would help all - because to make those weapons you need Manticore thing or far touched residuum and so on - so even lower lvl people can have a lucky drop.

And we talk about only 10% more stats - so not too much of a better set.

The next thing you have to think about - there are many people new people in this game - when they are ready to run TOMM everything is outdated - so this is not the Problem.

I think this way would work alot better, because MC would be usefull in every Mod. There are so many things to craft it would be usefull again. And the Developers wouldn´t have too much work foor new MC Gear and Weapons.
If they have the time they can add a new lvl to MC and the raise for newer gear the requirement again to craft the newest things.

akemnos · October 2019

That is the thing though is there are a ton of people who would be willing to pay. Sure the initial costs of the MC version of the lionheart would be outrageously high but that will naturally drop. More and more will get put up and the price will even out to something people can actually afford.

Combine this with now theoretically all those who bought the MC version of the item now have absolutely no reason to ever run this content. why run the content when i can just buy my way past it completely.

onlymat · October 2019

akemnos said:
That is the thing though is there are a ton of people who would be willing to pay. Sure the initial costs of the MC version of the lionheart would be outrageously high but that will naturally drop. More and more will get put up and the price will even out to something people can actually afford.

Combine this with now theoretically all those who bought the MC version of the item now have absolutely no reason to ever run this content. why run the content when i can just buy my way past it completely.

first: If you ojnly run content for the drops and not for the fun, then something is just wrong.
second: If you think like that - why run MSP? You can buy the artifact of aution house.

I think we need a Masterwork Solution similar to this I suggested so everything would be usefull again.

ATM without those changes - are you running FBI? MSP? Farm it? Now there is nothing to farm there are no drops worth something - and MSP is even very long to run.

So if you would change Masterwork to something like this - It could be that drops in FBI or MSp or T9 or wherever are worth something and people for groups again to farm content. That whats keep the game alive I think.

akemnos · October 2019

There is a huge difference between running MSP and TOMM.

MSP is able to be completed by a large percentage of the population. Tomm is able to be completed by 1-5% of the population.

Even with shiny new bought MC lionheart weapons 99% of the people who buy them are still not going to run the trial as the logistics and co-ordination required for it are out of the realms of possibility for most people. The dungeon is not puggable and unless you have an alliance that is specifically excited for this trial chances are you are not going to run it.

so yes regardless of whether you think it is fun or not most of the people who might buy this on the AH would then completely ignore the content as they no longer need to even think about running it.

onlymat · October 2019

akemnos said:
There is a huge difference between running MSP and TOMM.

MSP is able to be completed by a large percentage of the population. Tomm is able to be completed by 1-5% of the population.

Even with shiny new bought MC lionheart weapons 99% of the people who buy them are still not going to run the trial as the logistics and co-ordination required for it are out of the realms of possibility for most people. The dungeon is not puggable and unless you have an alliance that is specifically excited for this trial chances are you are not going to run it.

so yes regardless of whether you think it is fun or not most of the people who might buy this on the AH would then completely ignore the content as they no longer need to even think about running it.

"a large percentage of the population"
Yes and this large percentage needs something to drop. If you run MSP if you run FBI and you are one of the 95% who can´t run TOMM because too weak or whatever you still need somethin viewable.

I know people quitted with mod 16 they never run T9 and they never run CODG. They had many toons - but everything was boring and progress almost not possible - the lucky good drop from content they can run like FBI and MSP never happend and now they are out.

I don´t know how long you play this game: But you can ignore all content because 1 or 2 Mods later you get better stuff - so if you are not BIS lvl or near BIS lvl you will not start TOMM in Mod17.

You are right 5% of people are able to run it. But all other people need a chance to catch up by playing the game - with only the 100k AD you can get per day this will never happen - but if you play alot and randomly could drop good things again in MSP and FBI and get another 400k from selling the Items you can catch up just by playing the game.

And like you wroten on your other comment: "That is the thing though is there are a ton of people who would be willing to pay."

That would help the Developers even mor and the game would stay healthy.

darthpotater · October 2019

onlymat said:

darthpotater said:
In my opinion Masterwork should never be able to craft gear. I find sad that BIS weapons or armor is done by crafting (and I am a mastercrafter myself dont think I say this because I cant).

I think masterwork should be used to make alternative complementary items like we have now in jewels and kits. Consumable items that are needed by everyone and cycles the economy and makes your character better but not breaking the essence of getting the best items in dungeons / trials.

Items like enchantment items for overload slots, like Greater corrupt black ice enchantment but with more viable versions.

Scrolls of life, scrolls of protection or other consumables to help in tough battles

Potent potions instead to give them in events farmed by bots could be done in masterwork, etc.

just my 2 cents
you need something what people want to buy

All of the examples I put are things people want to buy,... and more than 1 time.

onlymat · October 2019

darthpotater said:

onlymat said:

darthpotater said:
In my opinion Masterwork should never be able to craft gear. I find sad that BIS weapons or armor is done by crafting (and I am a mastercrafter myself dont think I say this because I cant).

I think masterwork should be used to make alternative complementary items like we have now in jewels and kits. Consumable items that are needed by everyone and cycles the economy and makes your character better but not breaking the essence of getting the best items in dungeons / trials.

Items like enchantment items for overload slots, like Greater corrupt black ice enchantment but with more viable versions.

Scrolls of life, scrolls of protection or other consumables to help in tough battles

Potent potions instead to give them in events farmed by bots could be done in masterwork, etc.

just my 2 cents
you need something what people want to buy
All of the examples I put are things people want to buy,... and more than 1 time.

you are right, but I doubt it will happen because it would not be good for the game:

example:

"Scrolls of life" - people buy keys for lockboxes get tradebars and many of them use tradebars to get scrolls of life or buy them with AD.
This game needs something people can invest AD for it - the game needs AD get out of the game.

This needs to stay and you can´t let people craft scrolls of life because the price of AD would fall.
The thing is: If you would people let craft Weapons and gear and other ones buy them - it would cost Millions of AD and with the tradehouse alot of AD leave the game. And it would be a neverending cycle because next mod better drop better Masterwork gear or weapon or whatever.

And what we talk about - 10 % more stats for the people who are BIS and want to squeeze out every last bit of DPS.

Weapons and Gear would have many good sideffects I think.
If it would need alot of Refinement points to upgrade the refinement Items would rise in price again - so people can start farming ref Items and sell them on the Tradehouse - even lower lvl toons can do this. ATM noone farm for ref points because not needed. If you need alot of Profession resources for crafting the weapons the price for the Resources would rise so people would start farming resources again to sell - would need to spend guild marks would need to spend resources for the guild.
It would help in many ways - and atm I don´t see somethiung negative if you could craft the weapons and gear.

Not to forget its not much work for the Developers - and thats one of the goals they have too.

darthpotater · October 2019

onlymat said:

you are right, but I doubt it will happen because it would not be good for the game:

example:

"Scrolls of life" - people buy keys for lockboxes get tradebars and many of them use tradebars to get scrolls of life or buy them with AD.
This game needs something people can invest AD for it - the game needs AD get out of the game.

This needs to stay and you can´t let people craft scrolls of life because the price of AD would fall.
The thing is: If you would people let craft Weapons and gear and other ones buy them - it would cost Millions of AD and with the tradehouse alot of AD leave the game. And it would be a neverending cycle because next mod better drop better Masterwork gear or weapon or whatever.

And what we talk about - 10 % more stats for the people who are BIS and want to squeeze out every last bit of DPS.

Weapons and Gear would have many good sideffects I think.
If it would need alot of Refinement points to upgrade the refinement Items would rise in price again - so people can start farming ref Items and sell them on the Tradehouse - even lower lvl toons can do this. ATM noone farm for ref points because not needed. If you need alot of Profession resources for crafting the weapons the price for the Resources would rise so people would start farming resources again to sell - would need to spend guild marks would need to spend resources for the guild.
It would help in many ways - and atm I don´t see somethiung negative if you could craft the weapons and gear.

Not to forget its not much work for the Developers - and thats one of the goals they have too.

I disagree. If you can create a new char, drop $$$ in the game and get BIS gear without running any dungeon, then you can call it Forgotten Crafters or something.

Maybe we have a total different vision of what a DnD game should be.

And scrolls was just an example, I dont have the real stats, but I craft a lot of jewel kits and marks and they sell like candies every day, and I am sure they are a good AD sink (by crafting + AH cut). Much better than weapons.

akemnos · October 2019

Agreed with Darth. No developer wants to make content that allows others to completely skip "new content" and still get the rewards with no or limited effort.

I understand there are things like the auto level 80 and campaign completion tokens but the difference is you have to finish those at least once before you can buy them. If they were to allow for BIS equipment to be crafted and sold on the Auction House, that is an entire new module that they have just spent the last 6 months working on that can now effectively be skipped by anyone who decides they would rather buy the equipment instead of trying to acquire it naturally.

The loot tables from MSP/FBI or any other old dungeon are actually irrelevant to the discussion. Those loot tables are garbage now as everything is outdated and that is a problem as there is no incentive to run those dungeons except for fun or RAQ. The loot tables can be fixed in other ways that are likely much better.

For example your fix doesn't even help people run FBI as the drop happens from Hati (the first boss) so all it does is make Hati farms popular again.

onlymat · October 2019

akemnos said:
Agreed with Darth. No developer wants to make content that allows others to completely skip "new content" and still get the rewards with no or limited effort.

I understand there are things like the auto level 80 and campaign completion tokens but the difference is you have to finish those at least once before you can buy them. If they were to allow for BIS equipment to be crafted and sold on the Auction House, that is an entire new module that they have just spent the last 6 months working on that can now effectively be skipped by anyone who decides they would rather buy the equipment instead of trying to acquire it naturally.

The loot tables from MSP/FBI or any other old dungeon are actually irrelevant to the discussion. Those loot tables are garbage now as everything is outdated and that is a problem as there is no incentive to run those dungeons except for fun or RAQ. The loot tables can be fixed in other ways that are likely much better.

For example your fix doesn't even help people run FBI as the drop happens from Hati (the first boss) so all it does is make Hati farms popular again.

The content is skipped by 95%n of the community because they can´t run it you said it yourself. Until 95% of people are ready to run it we are in Mod 32 if this games lives that long....

"For example your fix doesn't even help people run FBI as the drop happens from Hati (the first boss) so all it does is make Hati farms popular again. "

Then add some drops to other bosser or use the dragon turtle thingy too - problem fixed.

" they would rather buy the equipment instead of trying to acquire it naturally"

YOU are the one who said 95% are not able to finish and I agree - so how could 95% - the majority of the game try to get equipment naturally? When they are ready to get the gear its long time outdated.

"If they were to allow for BIS equipment to be crafted and sold on the Auction House, that is an entire new module that they have just spent the last 6 months working on that can now effectively be skipped by anyone who decides they would rather buy the equipment instead of trying to acquire it naturally."

if 1-5 % of people are able to run it and not everyone is mastercrafter what do you think the price will look like? You can get extra AD from people wanting to buy this stuff - the majority will not buy because there are other things to do - but they can farm you create new markets again.

You can buy your way to endgame easier than before: And to be honest a engame build is since mod 16 easy to get. The boons are so weak they don´t really matter for endgame.
So get a new lvl 80 char buy radiants rank 15. buy a augument pet rank it up to legendary - get the power runestones rank 15. run some ME´s for some gear to upgrade your IL - you now have just bought a very viewable toon.
ATM you don´t have to play the game to get good or get good boons - everything that needs time to progress is gone in this game since mod 16. Eveything else you can buy.

lordaeolos · October 2019

This is from someone who enjoys crafting, wishing it had more long term value, and feels the pain of crafting losing viability rather quickly. Masterwork is not and has never been designed to be a profitable venture for the player base, it is meant to be a means to reduce the amount of AD in the game.. an "AD Sink", sure it can be VERY profitable for a select few players that invest the time and research to make a profit immediately upon release, but for the majority of people the costs outweigh the profits, in fact nearly the entire crafting system works this way... some of the problem is supply and demand, some is items losing value to new releases, and some of the problem is in the community itself racing each other to the bottom.

ecrana · October 2019

I've always liked the idea of being able to craft your own gear or upgrades to your gear.

But the more I think about this implementation, the less I like it.

I've always firmly believed that crafters should be able to make the BiS gear in the game for sale.

With that in mind, I've always had zero issues with gear you obtain through campaigns being a step below MC gear.

The notion you're selling is, quite honestly, perpetuating a problem I see a lot of people having with NW. The need to constantly change out their weapon set every single mod.

Now, with your idea, on top of the need to change the set every mod they would also have to purchase the upgraded set from a crafter.

That just sounds annoying to me.

I would just prefer that they release a new MC weapon set that would be BiS for a few mods.

Or let people craft an item that allows them to upgrade their current weapons in unique ways. Like adding more stats, set bonuses, etc, similar to the way you were able to modify the ToO artifacts with additional books.

thefabricant · October 2019

I am also firmly in the, "professions should not craft gear" club, solely because it puts 2 systems at odds with each other, professions and the dungeons. The systems should compliment each other, not force each other into obsolescence. Imo, the correct solution is instead of requiring someone with professions to perform the upgrade of the item or to craft the new piece of bis gear, instead they are able to manufacture the things used to do the upgrades. For example, if you could craft and sell sell the items used to vivify the bronzewood gear in mods gone past. Then they could sell those materials and everyone could do the upgrades themselves. Doing this, the 2 systems remain complimentary.

Of coarse, doing this means removing a lot of the current crafting recipes, which means new ones would need to fill the void. For example, crafting overload enchantments. Oils which act as temporary buffs on weapons could also work. Also, "reforging kits" which players could use to change an items stat distribution. Say an item has 2000 power, 2000 crit, they could have the option of splitting the item into 2750 power, 1000 crit. Reforging items like this would lose them total stats, but it would allow them to put stats on items where they want them. Alchemy could stay virtually the same but have more recipes added.

Also items that buff mounts could be added, for example stirrups which would temporarily give increased mount movement. Or a whip, which would allow a mount to take more hits before being dismounted. There is plenty of room for having professions create *useful* items which do not conflict with the progression system within dungeons.

Also, I feel that the acquisition of resources should change. See my post here about that.

onlymat · October 2019

thefabricant said:
I am also firmly in the, "professions should not craft gear" club, solely because it puts 2 systems at odds with each other, professions and the dungeons. The systems should compliment each other, not force each other into obsolescence. Imo, the correct solution is instead of requiring someone with professions to perform the upgrade of the item or to craft the new piece of bis gear, instead they are able to manufacture the things used to do the upgrades. For example, if you could craft and sell sell the items used to vivify the bronzewood gear in mods gone past. Then they could sell those materials and everyone could do the upgrades themselves. Doing this, the 2 systems remain complimentary.

Of coarse, doing this means removing a lot of the current crafting recipes, which means new ones would need to fill the void. For example, crafting overload enchantments. Oils which act as temporary buffs on weapons could also work. Also, "reforging kits" which players could use to change an items stat distribution. Say an item has 2000 power, 2000 crit, they could have the option of splitting the item into 2750 power, 1000 crit. Reforging items like this would lose them total stats, but it would allow them to put stats on items where they want them. Alchemy could stay virtually the same but have more recipes added.

Also items that buff mounts could be added, for example stirrups which would temporarily give increased mount movement. Or a whip, which would allow a mount to take more hits before being dismounted. There is plenty of room for having professions create *useful* items which do not conflict with the progression system within dungeons.

Also, I feel that the acquisition of resources should change. See my post here about that.

then it needs something to be what people want.
Maybe weapon kits or Armor kits to upgrade the weapon by a percentage of stats?

If it is something what gives temporary buffs only I can´t see people buying it.
Since I played this game I never used food to buff myself - it cost too much and is wasted because you don´t get something for it.
If I finish the dungeon with this buff 3 min faster - not a gamchanger. So I think many people won´t buy those temporary buff things.

Weapon kits or Armor kits would be nice because you still have to run content to get your weapons

It needs somethig to be what can stay forever - so every mod its in. It makes no sense to rewar MC every few Mods only to become obsolete some Mods later - its repetitive work for the Developers and so its wasted resources.

tom · October 2019

What i would like to see as beeing craftable are the perks u now have on Rings/armor. As its now, if u want a certain dps perk, u are locked into certain stats. If they were craftable that would allow alot more choice on which stats u have on your gear.

darthpotater · October 2019

onlymat said:

If it is something what gives temporary buffs only I can´t see people buying it.
Since I played this game I never used food to buff myself - it cost too much and is wasted because you don´t get something for it.
If I finish the dungeon with this buff 3 min faster - not a gamchanger. So I think many people won´t buy those temporary buff things.

This is because you are not running ToMM, people is buying Greater Corrupt Black ice enchantments (8 hours of duration) and food, because every bit of advantage counts

tom#6998 said:
What i would like to see as beeing craftable are the perks u now have on Rings/armor. As its now, if u want a certain dps perk, u are locked into certain stats. If they were craftable that would allow alot more choice on which stats u have on your gear.

Yes things like this are what I was suggesting, things that makes your gear better and allow you to customize, but are consumables that you need with every gear, also other kits stronger (more stats or dual-triple stats?) than actual kits with no MasterCrafting.

therealprotex · October 2019

onlymat said:
YOU are the one who said 95% are not able to finish and I agree - so how could 95% - the majority of the game try to get equipment naturally? When they are ready to get the gear its long time outdated.

Becoming BiS should be hard. Very hard. Casual players (like myself) should almost never be able to reach BiS status. And the casual player won't need to be BiS, at least not in this game. Everything below ToMM, including LoMM, is more or less easily done without the best weapons and equipment. You can run LoMM with 950 gear and alabaster weapons.

If you really want to become a BiS player, stop being casual, invest more time and effort in the game, master the hardest content and earn the best weapons and equipment.

Just my 2 cc.

easy Solution for Masterwork be viewable every Mod

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