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The Maths of the new Random Queue System

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  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,109 Arc User

    Votekicks don't even work 50% of the time. You only need one sympathizer to shoot it down, and sometimes that person simply doesn't notice the leech. Some leeches are smarter than others. The ones with end-game gear that can take a beating just park their character in the middle of things. It's easier for their behavior to go unnoticed, and their pet gets them onto the scoreboard.

    The only consequence of leaving that I care about is that I'm no longer being taken advantage of by someone I despise. Sometimes I get a disparaging tell sent after me from one of the enablers, and I go right ahead and block him too.

    Yes, vote kick usually does not work. I don't bother with kicks anymore unless they are blocking my progress. I do report them, all of them. The guy who hasn't moved from the starting campfire for the entire run, report. The guy who did only a few hundred hundred DPS and is still near the starting campfire, report. The two or more guys that seemingly follow and mirror each other, one report with all the accounts.

    I do not know if the devs do anything now. I do hope at the very least they are collecting the data and maybe one day they can use it to suss out and ban the botting and farming accounts, and maybe even the owner accounts.
  • grrowler#0622 grrowler Member Posts: 185 Arc User

    I wonder if the longer queue times will deter leeches somewhat.
    If it's taking five times longer to queue, think leeches will still be so blasé about being kicked?

    I run into leeches every day now. I've just recently started abandoning queue and taking the leaver penalty whenever the rest of the team knocks down the kick vote. After taking a moment to block and report the offending "player," I pm, Have fun carrying the leech, then I go back to whatever I was doing 'til I can queue again.

    It's not a solution, but I don't feel so aggravated this way. And on the plus side, if the leech happens to be a sociopath, maybe knowing they've irritated another human being will give them the warm and fuzzies, and they can go another day without hurting people irl.

    I have done the same - I feel a bit guilty about this, but as someone else mentioned - I am sure the spot gets refilled by an immediate reinforcement.

    when someone that is afk is obviously a leech, I initiate a vote kick that usually is voted down - I wonder if possibly the reason is that a common tactic is to multi-box? I just find it frustrating - it almost seems like 75% of the CTA skirmishes that I have run have a leecher.
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User
    edited September 2019

    I'm going to ask something a bit controversial here, but what the hell.

    I read a lot of comments about how, before sorting anything else out, the devs should "solve the problem of leechers".

    Ok.
    What IS the problem with leechers in low level skirmishes? I'm not saying that there isn't a problem before anyone accuses me of that, I'm asking what makes them a priority over what I would consider more important issues such as getting Queue lead times down to a manageable amount.

    How about one problem is the cheating when multiple accounts are used to farm AD or manipulate the queue. And another problem is some players getting upset by freeloaders.
    But, other than it being annoying, does it negatively impact the game?

    I have encountered leechers many times, and over time I have developed an intricate and complex method of coping.
    I shrug my shoulders, say "HAMSTER 'em!" and get on with my own game.
    I don't recall it ever having a negative impact on the outcome of a low level Skirmish.

    As long as they had the decency to join the party at the ring to start the skirmish, at worst it may have added a minute or so to the time needed to complete the run. (VERY rarely I might add...)
    When they first merged Skirmishes with Dungeons to create the RIQ, what WAS a problem, was people not wanting to run, for instance, PoM. They would just stand in the lobby and not allow the thing to even start, waiting for the timer to let the party kick them or someone else to get fed up and quit, thereby freeing the leecher to leave with no penalty.
    That hardly happens now. (Those guys would now rather put up with a 10 minute Skirmish than having to work hard in a 25 minute CN run with potentially a 14k Tank, 2 guys who have just got the Vistani Set and a part time Healer.)

    But of course if they are doing that or it extends to the level of AFKing a Dungeon where you need them to join up to unlock a new zone or meet the boss, then YES, that is what I would describe as a genuine problem, not simply an annoyance, and that is something that would need to be addressed, but in recent months the instances of that sort of behaviour seem to have declined dramatically.
    Just standing around doing nothing in a low level Skirmish? Meh... HAMSTER 'em!

    I wonder if it's a generational thing?
    Maybe I'm just too old, and don't get how a complete stranger being a bit of a HAMSTER for a short period of time in a video game elevates beyond being a minor annoyance to genuinely cause "upset"?

    People can be HAMSTER.
    Experienced players of this game as recently as the Mod 16 drop were perfectly happy to pretend to help newer players complete new content, simply so that they could steal +4 Companion Gear and prevent their fellow players from getting it.
    Compared to that sort of HAMSTER-ishness, watching someone stand around doing nothing is really not worth getting "Upset" over.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,641 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    .

    @asterdahl

    funny how your data on wait times doesn't match up with what people have to say about the wait times, isn't it.

    @asterdahl As he said, definitely, please review your data, people (dps) are waiting wayyyyy more for RLQ.
    Or maybe your data correspond to a mean time taking into account the healer waiting time: if this latter is 1 seconds, of course it reduces artificially the overall waiting time...

    One support character is more than enough for RLQ, changing the requirement to one support only would be a good compromise.

    AVERAGE queue times...
  • wylonuswylonus Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,376 Arc User
    sometimes i get wary of joining random pug and find out some are running multiple characters by a single guy or shady guild or buddy system and get voted kicked out before claiming my rewards from chest while they do nothing but make me do all the killings.
    shady vote-kicked, leeching, and often get abandoned before 1st boss/ringleader are those big problems, "trust no one".
  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,109 Arc User


    But, other than it being annoying, does it negatively impact the game?

    Cheating, in general, negatively impacts the game in the long run.

    Some people may be okay with it because in the short term the cheaters are triggering quick MotH/DL for them to run with little or no queue time. In the long term, these cheaters are earning more AD then other players are normally able to make, making it harder for the other players to keep up in the long run.
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User


    But, other than it being annoying, does it negatively impact the game?

    Cheating, in general, negatively impacts the game in the long run.

    Some people may be okay with it because in the short term the cheaters are triggering quick MotH/DL for them to run with little or no queue time. In the long term, these cheaters are earning more AD then other players are normally able to make, making it harder for the other players to keep up in the long run.
    Aside from the fact that I haven't seen a rule that says that standing still and not actively participating in content is actually cheating, and not just "being a HAMSTER", (and there's no amount of code in the world that will ever stop people from being dicks), I still cant get myself into the mindset that seems to get people so upset by this.

    How are they earning "...more AD than other players are normally able to make?" And in what sort of volume that it imbalances the economy to the point that the rest of us are unable to keep up?
    I'm not disagreeing with you, I just want to know where you get that information from.
    But... having said that, I don't see how getting lazy people to contribute to a low level skirmish would have any impact on the economy.

    (And if that were the case, and the economy is being adversely impacted by people standing still in Prophecy of Madness, I'm fairly sure Cryptic would already be all over it like a rash, because if it impacts the in game economy it impacts Zen, and if it impacts Zen it impacts their bottom line, and since Zen is how they pay to keep the game going, THAT is their major focus whether anything else needs fixing or not. And it should be. Because I for one would put up with bugs and problems for longer if the other option was the game folding.)

    I'd rather worry about everyone having to wait considerably longer for RIQ/RLQ to fire than how many RAD a freeloader earns from standing still in a low level skirmish.

    I understand that having someone to point a finger at and blame for the ills of the world is a convenient vent these days, but I really believe the game has far bigger things to focus on fixing than lazy leechers.

    Once again, I'm not condoning it, I'm not encouraging it, and I'm not advocating that people should do it.
    I am, in fact, very much against it.
    What I'm saying is that in the bigger picture, there are waaay more important things Cryptic could be spending their time fixing.
  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Member Posts: 821 Arc User

    ...I still cant get myself into the mindset that seems to get people so upset by this...

    I wish I was more like this.
    I try to ignore it, but it's one of those things that just gets under my skin - almost as bad as the dinkus that won't stop hopping for fifteen minutes straight.

    I guess what I really, really want is to believe that there occurs that rare, beautiful moment when the game drops five chronic leeches into a queue together. How marvelous. Beyond that, I'd love to see the developers code it so that every time they attempt to queue, all the people on my block list get the gift of each other in perpetuity.

    You know what it is? They're the bad guys. That's what upsets me.
    If a childhood packed with TMNT, He-man, Darkwing Duck, Thundercats - etc, has taught me anything, it's that effort always saves the day, and bad guys always lose. In Neverwinter, not only do they win, they win without trying - in your queue, because of your effort. That's just wrong.
  • lordtweety#3604 lordtweety Member Posts: 275 Arc User
    It's also easy to form a party of 5 and run your CTAs in private queue. As the leader in a private queue you can kick anyone who isn't actively participating. Maybe it's not as easy as just hitting the join queue button, but it takes away all the hassle of dealing with leeches. And you never know, you might meet people that you might want to run with in the future. It's possible.
    Main: Angels Scar
    Guild: Ruathym Corsairs
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User
    edited September 2019

    ...I still cant get myself into the mindset that seems to get people so upset by this...

    I wish I was more like this.
    I try to ignore it, but it's one of those things that just gets under my skin - almost as bad as the dinkus that won't stop hopping for fifteen minutes straight.

    I guess what I really, really want is to believe that there occurs that rare, beautiful moment when the game drops five chronic leeches into a queue together. How marvelous. Beyond that, I'd love to see the developers code it so that every time they attempt to queue, all the people on my block list get the gift of each other in perpetuity.

    You know what it is? They're the bad guys. That's what upsets me.
    If a childhood packed with TMNT, He-man, Darkwing Duck, Thundercats - etc, has taught me anything, it's that effort always saves the day, and bad guys always lose. In Neverwinter, not only do they win, they win without trying - in your queue, because of your effort. That's just wrong.
    Try thinking of them this way; rather than the bad guys, they are the person who is on the mission with the heroes who either secretly works for the bad guys, or thinks the mission is a bad idea...

    The pointless HAMSTER head, who is a pain in the HAMSTER, complains all the time, gets under their feet a bit and no one likes, and everyone smiles when they die.

    Let's not elevate these piles of human toe jam to full on Bad Guy status, that would be a badge of honour to these jokers.
    They are no Hans Gruber, they are the lawyer who gets eaten by the TRex while sitting on the HAMSTER.
  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Member Posts: 821 Arc User

    Let's not elevate these piles of human toe jam to full on Bad Guy status, that would be a badge of honour to these jokers.

    That's a good point - and an accurate description.
    Supposedly you can learn a lot about people from the choices they make in a game. I imagine these particular people must be puny, meager souls irl.

    But I'd like to challenge the devs or whoever's in charge to take a week or two and only play with the people on our block lists, just so they can see what it feels like to be forced to queue with these flaccid parasites.
  • lordtweety#3604 lordtweety Member Posts: 275 Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    Why don't they just make the healers more fun? That should give us incentive to play healers.

    A warlock was healing me the other day for ... wait for it .... 1 hp at a time. That was ONE hit point per second. ONE.

    So again, why would you play a soulweaver?

    Honestly, if more healers are needed.... healers need to be interesting and meaningful so people want to play them.

    I was going to make a bunch of warlock suggestions... but the apathy on getting positive changes to the warlock kicked in, so I deleted them.
    Main: Angels Scar
    Guild: Ruathym Corsairs
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,665 Arc User
    Soulweaver has a passive that does that and yes, it's useless. However that isn't the exent of warlock healing. If that is the only healing you're getting from one, it's a sign they are either completely new/clueless or else they only queued as healer for the role bonus and faster queue time and they arr just trying to dps.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,665 Arc User
    I healed MSP this weekend using Shatterspark and TAB only. No need to sacrifice your own health that I've seen. My warlock isn't geared for LOMM but otherwise its easier to heal on her than Pally or Cleric. Shatterspark doesn't require aiming and TAB for Soulweaver is so much haster than Pally/Cleric.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    I think the issue isn't really the change to the Q, but the fact that mod 16 and 17 has seen players that main clerics, paladins, warlocks, and fighters leave the game. Many of these players played as a support role. Losing these players has hurt the overall ability to get into the update RLQ and RIQ faster.

    There are also the players of those classes that simply will not play the support side because the player dislikes how the support side of the class is played. I am one of those players that have given up playing my Fighter and Cleric as I dislike how both of those classes play as a support role. I tried to even tinker with a warlock and paladin and simply did not enjoy playing any of the support classes in this game.

    I usually play a support character in a MMO but mod 16 made the support side in NWO very boring.

    First let's talk about tanking; given the long cool down of abilities and how threat is generated the fighter and paladin slower moving attacks makes them lose threat very often; rarely do I not go into a LoMM without gaining threat from the tank. I have yet to be in a run where a tank is able to hold threat away from me or another damage dealer. Yeah there are times when you can hold threat but typically its only a single target and with how mobs work, tanking is well not optimized from my experience in NWO. Also being slow with attacks makes tanking very boring as well.

    Second let's talk about healing; it boring. All three healer are boring to play; they simply don't offer anything that imo truly makes them special or awesome to play or invest in game resources towards. I have gone through LoMM a few times as a healer and have yet to complete a run where I have not fell asleep when I healed LoMM. I have seen more clerics hanging it up and going to a pure damage dealer class, playing the cleric as a damage dealer or leaving the game all together. I have seen Paladin simply walk away because tanking and healing are both not worth playing.

    Playing support overall is boring and add to it the lose of some of the support players this adds up to longer Q times.

    Not sure how Cryptic is collecting their data but the average Q time on PS4 is fairly quick, less than 2 minutes. When it comes to RAQ or REQ I typically have to wait 2 hours usually do to a healer. Honestly I don't want to deal with 15-30 minute Q time for RLQ or RIQ. If this update to Q comes to consoles I'm done. I'm not going to play as a healer and I don't have the patience to wait 15 minutes for a Q that will take me 2-5 minutes to beat.

  • foxeatingwolf#7316 foxeatingwolf Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    I must be one of the very VERY few, or even the only DC player who actually feels slightly buffed and enjoys playing devout cleric even more now (And yes, I admit nearly rage quit at first when I saw what things were going to be on paper...) It's the healing word radius that made me forgive everything, I LOVE healing word and reaching everyone without problem due to 80 radius! I am pretty good at managing my divinity, or at least I'd like to think I am.

    And now with this extra bonus for rlq, which should have been there all along for support roles (and really, that was probably the only change that was needed), I feel like I'm in a golden era for being a healer! But Paladin and Warlock healers still need a little help imo, help them out and I think the queues will be in a good place!
  • regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 3,041 Arc User
    Well, for a short while the RLQ was starting instantly with a Healer or Tank loadout, but that seem to be changing and the waiting time is increasing every day a bit more.

    And if the players supporting this update aren't supporting the game financially too, then who is? I highly doubt that any player that is being forced into a Healer or Tank loadout is going to spend money on this game. So, i'm left wondering if the only game plan here's to hope for the best and that enough players will go for the ZEN Charge Promotions and the seasonal sales to keep the lights on?

    Anyway, at the moment i wouldn't be surprised if at some point it's going to be better to play with a DPS loadout again, since the waiting time will be the same as with a Healer or Tank loadout...
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
  • benyrbenyr Member Posts: 238 Arc User
    edited September 2019

    just to throw a left-handed monkey wrench at your maths… every player with more than 1 year in game has a DC alt. They used to be mandatory for running dungeons as buffers. The fact that those players are suddenly unwilling to play those toons is an entirely different conversation.

    For me this is spot on, enjoyment of running a dungeon plays a huge role in peoples willingness to queue. I'm a long time player, I have 8 toons (one of each class) all over 24k IL so i can queue for whatever role I want. However guess how many random queues i've joined in the last 2 months? None, not once I have i bothered.

    Compare this to my activity pre mod 16, when i'd join random's all the time. I enjoyed doing it as particularly on my main i could guarantee a successful run, meet new people and pass on tips to newer players. Essentially paying back the help and support i received from the community when i first started.

    Why the change? Two reasons, firstly the changes mod 16 brought made the dungeons harder to run than they were previously and also inadvertently introduced a lot of bugs. I found these factors combined increased the frustration of the players and dramatically increased the chances of finding yourself in a toxic run with players throwing blame at one another. Then secondly the play style of Tanks and healers now is just no fun to play anymore.

    For me this means that anyone who has been in the game any length of time and has built up a good friend network, or is in an active alliance and probably has a choice of classes to play are firstly only running in pre-made groups, and secondly are preferring to run as DPS, only running as a Tank or healer when its their turn to have to do so in a group of friends.

    When I log my Pally in my chat box lights up with people asking me to join a run, but i dislike the playstyle that much i only ever agree to do so for a select group of people.

  • flippy#8481 flippy Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    stoniar said:

    I wonder if the longer queue times will deter leeches somewhat.
    If it's taking five times longer to queue, think leeches will still be so blasé about being kicked?

    I run into leeches every day now. I've just recently started abandoning queue and taking the leaver penalty whenever the rest of the team knocks down the kick vote. After taking a moment to block and report the offending "player," I pm, Have fun carrying the leech, then I go back to whatever I was doing 'til I can queue again.

    It's not a solution, but I don't feel so aggravated this way. And on the plus side, if the leech happens to be a sociopath, maybe knowing they've irritated another human being will give them the warm and fuzzies, and they can go another day without hurting people irl.

    I have done the same - I feel a bit guilty about this, but as someone else mentioned - I am sure the spot gets refilled by an immediate reinforcement.

    when someone that is afk is obviously a leech, I initiate a vote kick that usually is voted down - I wonder if possibly the reason is that a common tactic is to multi-box? I just find it frustrating - it almost seems like 75% of the CTA skirmishes that I have run have a leecher.
    leechers ok, but you missed the obvious level 80 bots running in pairs too.

    something icky about a pair of 80's with item level just barely above the level 46 pair ( strange both run in pairs )

    at least its not like the early mod 16 syndrome where 2-4 of the random was filled with people using the exact same strange movement pattern --- back up , face away from the enemy . . .

  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,489 Arc User
    What I am observing is that the class mix in RLQ seems a lot more on target now. I regularly see class bonus for dps in RLQ now. If/when this class mix propagates up to RIQ and RAQ, things will be a lot better.
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 709 Arc User

    What I am observing is that the class mix in RLQ seems a lot more on target now. I regularly see class bonus for dps in RLQ now. If/when this class mix propagates up to RIQ and RAQ, things will be a lot better.

    Because it is harder to be an ok DPS than an ok support class.

    And older DPS gave up on RLQ and RIQ ( time is money and in the waiting time for RLQ-RIQ they can get the AD from somewhere else ) and fresh DPS die at the sight of a mob because they only know ME.

    We said that this will happen, but what do we know , the devs know better , they are omniscient.

    .
    Its a bit sad how hard old content is on fresh 20ks with decent gear. One could think they didn't have any incentive to run older content, huh ... :D
    Oh, I forgot. Legacy!
    - bye bye -
  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Member Posts: 417 Arc User

    Because it is harder to be an ok DPS than an ok support class

    I find the dps role easier to handle than any other, though maybe a bit more costly AD-wise.


    And older DPS gave up on RLQ and RIQ (time is money and in the waiting time for RLQ-RIQ they can get the AD from somewhere else)

    My main (since 2016, so i'm not a so "old") is a today a 24k Rogue, seconded by a 23k Cleric and Fighter, and i have a "little" alt-army of 34 toons.

    Since the 100k AD account-wide limit, I use the RLQ as a filler between the 1rst and 2nd pray, and the RIQ as a filler between the 2nd and 3rd pray.

    Personnally it's more like it doesn't matter which toon and role I throw in RIQ-RLQ, it's equally "intersting and fun" to do my 11000th cloak tower or my 2000th CN or ETOS or etc.
    I just choose my toon depending on what is up as a role bonus + if i have enough rAD bonus on him, or what's my mood of the day.

  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,489 Arc User
    Well.. my experience with solo RQs is a little bit different. I run RLQ-RIQ-RAQ daily with an occasional REQ thrown in for fun if I feel like it. I usually use some sort of healer or tank for RLQ-RIQ-RAQ(bonus) and my main Wiz for REQ.

    (Note this is on PC.. CODG is removed from queues on PC.)

    RLQ always is easy.. i tend to bring one of my poor and ungeared healer invoke alts for this, and there never are significant issues.
    RIQ can be somewhat more challenging. I usually bring a 22k Cleric or a 23.5k Fighter for this. Mostly runs are trivial, but there are some spots like Folly and Bank Heist that can create problems with low dps.
    RAQ also usually is completeable. I usually run this on my 23.5k Fighter. (As you can see there is a trend with using better geared characters for the higher queues). The problem in RAQ tends to be people not knowing the tactics. Even in groups where my Fighter is top dps(which means the dps is really low) we can usually complete the runs, but it sometimes takes a bit of teaching tactics and some time.
    REQ. Running this on my 25k Wizard. It mostly works out, I think we have had to replace some dps at Arcturia occasionally, but overall not too bad.

    In sum: I rarely do not complete an RQ run, but sometimes it requires some persistence and patience. That is also one of the reasons I like solo RQs.. the experience is different each time. The probability of failing just adds some exitement to otherwise boring runs.
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