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  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Posts: 721Member Arc User
    edited September 14
    .
    Post edited by frogwalloper#6494 on
  • abaddon#2855 abaddon Posts: 8Member Arc User
    ITT shows that dungeons and such are broken and need to be more difficult because everyone wants the healer class deleted.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Posts: 3,592Member Arc User
    a compromise might be to give people a checkbox. match me with full party inc healer and tank or match me with anything. but don't keep the two systems separate. so match me with anything can be used in parties that are exclusive to need dc and tank or anything.
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  • titi227titi227 Posts: 9Member Arc User
    So, random intermediate Q requires 14k. Do the devs realize what 14k means? Usually 3 out of 5 people are in absolutely terrible gear and just don't contribute in any way. Should i even bring 17k needed for advanced Q? You get 17k at lvl 80 with the giveaway quest gear. The rescaled dungeons are insanely hard for randoms. Ok, i'm fine with waiting, but groups usually don't finish.

    Had tanks with 19k defense. After waiting for 30 minutes for it to pop, you get a tank with 19k def, you wipe (obviously) and everyone leaves. It's infuriating. People will either leave the game or just ignore the stupid random Q's. I'm gonna roll an alt and run 3 more ME's, because even if they bore me to death, at least i'm sure i'll finish them. I'm sure others are in the same boat. If you devs tried to make people ignore random Q's all together, congratulations - you did it.
  • pakatapoespakatapoes Posts: 63Member Arc User
    There is several posts on this forum with different titles but that is a bout the same things, the RQ's or that downscaling that nobody is fan of . How can so many people be wrong , this game should be the best . But the Dev's dont listen , if you want to sell something , you should listen what your costumer is asking. And they are asking the same thing , put RQ's back as it was and stop that downscaling. If you PUG you die its nobody's fault , premade get your own healer and tank if you think the dungeon is hard
  • b4t1b4tb4t1b4t Posts: 197Member Arc User
    A better suggestion to the problem is to do a force role. Meaning regardless of what you que up as if a party needs say a tank and you are on a class that can tank you get qued in as the tank regardless if you was qued up as a dps. Yes this also would mean that sw might que as a heal or a cleric as a dps or heal but it would also make ques pop faster.
    The reason ques are so long is not really because lack of the people playing the class its lack of people wanting to use that class.
    GWF can tank so why not que as a tank or sw can que as a heal but some just wants to dps.
    If you force it and make the que put you in as a spec thats required in the party it go faster.
  • darkheart#6758 darkheart Posts: 273Member Arc User
    > @b4t1b4t said:
    > A better suggestion to the problem is to do a force role. Meaning regardless of what you que up as if a party needs say a tank and you are on a class that can tank you get qued in as the tank regardless if you was qued up as a dps. Yes this also would mean that sw might que as a heal or a cleric as a dps or heal but it would also make ques pop faster.
    > The reason ques are so long is not really because lack of the people playing the class its lack of people wanting to use that class.
    > GWF can tank so why not que as a tank or sw can que as a heal but some just wants to dps.
    > If you force it and make the que put you in as a spec thats required in the party it go faster.

    Yes, let's force a role on people that have no desire to play that role. Let's see how quickly you completely wipe out people running a random queue, and leave the game.

    This queue mess is just another in a long line of mistakes the devs have recently made, but won't admit to it. I can't wait till it hit consoles and more people yell and scream about 20 or 30 minute wait times.
  • dionchidionchi Posts: 815Member Arc User
    edited September 16
    The first character I intentionally rolled when starting to play Neverwinter was a Cleric, I actually preferred playing a buffing/healing Cleric but even before Mod 16 I felt Clerics were being nerfed and after Mod 16 it seemed to me Clerics took an extra heavy downgrade. I felt most of the Cleric's buffs were eliminated and quite a few of the Cleric's healing abilities were also eliminated, I mean I used to be able to apportion a small amount of healing just being in a party and standing near a player that needed it. Sun Burst in addition to pushing back opponents also used to give out a little healing - no longer after Mod 16.

    Unsurprisingly after Mod 16 a lot of players abandoned their Clerics because aside from being much less effective as healers their ability to buff party members became largely non-existent.

    Now Neverwinter requires a "healer" in random queues but now with three main healer classes (Cleric, Paladin and Warlock) Clerics are largely still on the outs because Paladins and Warlocks in addition to healing, those classes also seem to be much more effective offensively.

    I'm currently working on upgrading my Cleric with better gear, enchantments and such but all things being equal, I personally still believe Clerics have again been given the short (and dirty) end of the abilities stick - but it is what it is - adapt or move on.

    As to the wait times, to me they seem to have improved a bit. I haven't encountered a 5 or 6-minute wait time for a random leveling queue recently (knock on wood).

    ¢¢
    DD~
  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Posts: 778Member Arc User
    Ya know...I never thought I would say this as I've mained healing classes since mod 3 and have waited ages for healing to be relevant again. I was wrong. Remove the role requirements from the event and leveling queues and just bring back lifesteal. Both mods 16 and 17 have shown be that this crew can't make healing and healers interesting to play. While there are some players that DO enjoy healing in this game there aren't enough to justify punishing the players that don't but want to play the game. Fix it all back and give the healers something else that makes their class choice useful but allows other players the opportunity to enjoy the game.
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  • b4t1b4tb4t1b4t Posts: 197Member Arc User
    I never said it would be a good strong idea. I just gave an idea that would make waiting on a queue become faster then longer.
    Their idea was good but the way the game is played it failed.
    On paper yes in game no.
    There is no way to really make a queue become fast if there just isn't enough people to make parties fast enough.
    When I say people I mean the specs we run.
    I remember when I played all day how long queued up as a dps was for a random expert. Some times I had to wait an hour just for it and half that time the party failed.
    Then had to wait another hour.
    I do not mind waiting as long as the wait time does not become long and 1 hour just to long.
  • anna#2001 anna Posts: 3Member Arc User
  • paulamyo#4926 paulamyo Posts: 47Member Arc User
    edited September 20
    I think I will introduce another variant to this problem.

    I think that RLQ should be for people leveling.

    It should not be worth entering RLQ with a lvl 80 25K IL character. With a character of that level all the instances in RLQ are ridicously easy and I find very ilogical that those players are entering RLQ.

    I think it would be good to remove the rAD reward from RLQ for lvl80 characters, and increase for example the RAQ and RIQ rewards to compensate that.

  • akemnosakemnos Posts: 576Member Arc User
    If you remove the RAD award from RLQ than absolutely no one will be running it. The random queue was made originally to combat this because people would be queue for 4-6 hours waiting for other people to queue for the leveling dungeons before logging off without running it.

    All this does is hurt those new people as they will almost never run those queues and then be even more lost when they get to the advanced versions of them.
  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Posts: 721Member Arc User
    akemnos said:

    If you remove the RAD award from RLQ than absolutely no one will be running it. The random queue was made originally to combat this because people would be queue for 4-6 hours waiting for other people to queue for the leveling dungeons before logging off without running it.

    All this does is hurt those new people as they will almost never run those queues and then be even more lost when they get to the advanced versions of them.

    I totally agree with you, but a maxed-out beefcake cavorting about the Cloak Tower is always going to be a strange sight.
    And I suppose Mod 16 has been pretty kind to leveling characters. I bet they still get left in the dust by the endgame herd, but not nearly as bad as before.
  • prethenprethen Posts: 132Member Arc User
    Just tried Tiamat last night. Waste of time and still ultra-difficult (as opposed to pre-Mod 16 days).
  • aerhythia#3255 aerhythia Posts: 107Member Arc User
    b4t1b4t said:

    A better suggestion to the problem is to do a force role. Meaning regardless of what you que up as if a party needs say a tank and you are on a class that can tank you get qued in as the tank regardless if you was qued up as a dps. Yes this also would mean that sw might que as a heal or a cleric as a dps or heal but it would also make ques pop faster.
    The reason ques are so long is not really because lack of the people playing the class its lack of people wanting to use that class.
    GWF can tank so why not que as a tank or sw can que as a heal but some just wants to dps.
    If you force it and make the que put you in as a spec thats required in the party it go faster.

    Why force it though? We don't even have that as an option yet. We also can't queue for multiple random queues. If tanks & healers queue for REQ which has supposedly one of the highest queueing times it means there are less tanks & healers available for the other queues.

    Forcing would work a lot better if players with 2 DPS paragons would be forced to play premade hero Knox & Celeste characters, following your logic.
  • lordtweety#3604 lordtweety Posts: 273Member Arc User
    Someone else suggested this in another thread and I think it's great. If you're queue is taking 5 minutes and you need a tank or healer, bring in Celeste and/or Sgt Knox. And, as unlikely as it maybe, bring in Xuna and/or Makos if you need DPS. This way, even if you are the last player in Neverwinter you can still make your rad from the leveling queue.

    It solves the wait time, solves the problem for the low level guy trying to queue for the blacklake skirmish or for his first rlq and shouldn't be that hard to implement - they have these roles already elsewhere in game (don't quote me on that, haven't played/leveled a new toon in a while).

    Tether Knox and Celeste to the lowest level char so they don't run off or get left behind. And program them to do the job of tank and healer.
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  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Posts: 721Member Arc User
    edited September 21
    Celeste, Knox, Makos, and Xuna would all be a welcome change over some of the dingbats we're forced to queue with.
    Heck, teaming up with a dead rat beats queuing with any of the leeches on my block list.
  • b4t1b4tb4t1b4t Posts: 197Member Arc User
    Looking at how they are doing the system things do make sense. Sure we do not wish for that to happen but if you really look at how it is then yes sooner or later they will add the feature.
    Same thing will item level. Now how its all done item level makes no sense being a requirement. Each queue should have its own requirement based off min stats a player needs. It just makes more sense now.
    Not saying they will now but I do see that happening at some point.
    I would not enjoy it neither trust me. I main a warlock dps and the last thing I would want to do is try and heal a dungeon when I know 100% I suck at healing on a lock.
    Yet if you look at how its all done right now adding that would fix the long dreadful wait times for a queue to actually pop.
    I am against the idea my self but there really is not much other ways cryptic can make a queue pop faster when those in the queue are mostly dps classes.
  • onlymatonlymat Posts: 283Member Arc User
    edited September 21
    The Reason queues don´t pop anymore is the whole class change. Many of the BIS DC´s I know are gone - they don´t want to be healing bots for People who still can´t finisch Malabog. I also know many of the BIS Pallys (Powershare ones) who also stopped playing and queuing - no Power share ends you with a too weak group and all your work over the past years helps nothing to improve the group as whole. So they also decided to stop - not only running but many of them left the game.

    Before Mod16
    My main always was a DODC - I was near BIS lvl and I knew that I could finisch all smaller dungeons like malabo up to castle never with every group - I know I´m in we finisch. In Dungeons like MSP I knew if we have a real tank we finisch if I´m in. I buffed alot and I also have done enough damage to finisch the dungeons.

    A friend of mine was a Power share Pally completly BIS. When he random queued all day and farmed all dungeons all skirmishes everything. Because of his Powershare he finished everything. He made the group so much stronger.

    Now with Mod 16

    I can play as healer only because as DPS you don´t find any queues popping and I refuse to wait an hour for nothing. So as a healer I´m in pretty fast. but now all the Problems start - in most queues the teams are much too weak - many of the new players have no clue how to setup their chars and they have very often not enough dps to finisch a dungeon.
    The main Problem here is: It makes NO difference if I´m in (26k DC) or a 3 k DC would be in - the DC does NOT make a difference - only in lomm you need a healer who knows what to do - all other content noone needs to care what healer is in.
    Upgrade a healer or play a high lvl DC doesn´t make sense - you only need it in 1 dungeon = lomm.
    o for me is the question - do I run random queues? no I don´t. If I run something I run with premade groups and I live with the huge amount of rAD I still have. A BIS healer in a dungeon like Castle Never adds NOTHING to a Party. My 25k CW does make a difference in Castle Never.

    My Pally friend stopped running. Sure hes still a good tank and hes now 27k but he ends up with much too weak groups and again he gives the Party nothing.

    So to write it down very easily: The Tanks and Healers (especially DCs) get destroyed with mod 16. Progress for them means nothing - if you play a 26k dc in Caste Never together with a 27k Pally Tank doesn´t influence the game one bit.
    A group with a 10k healer and 10k tank with 3 25k DPS is so much better than a group with a 26k DC with a 27k Tank and 3 10k DPS.

    Like I have written - the tanks and the DC´s are the only classes what don´t make a difference in a group - they give nothing extra to the group. With my 25.7k cw a dungeon run gets faster if it pops (I do a lot of damage) but with my over 26k DC the run get not influenced.

    With this decition to make Progress for tanks and dcs not needed (only in lomm) many high class DC´s and Tanks left.

    The needed change would be - make the DC´s and Tanks buffer again - I need to feel a difference if I play with a 10k DC or a 26k DC. Like I do on my CW. If this will not be done - no queues will pop anymore.





  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Posts: 721Member Arc User
    edited September 21
    Or maybe get rid of regeneration and insignia heals. Making heals more rare would make healers and tanks more important, wouldn't it?
  • prethenprethen Posts: 132Member Arc User
    prethen said:

    Just tried Tiamat last night. Waste of time and still ultra-difficult (as opposed to pre-Mod 16 days).

    I have to update and say my experience is all over the place now. Definitely there's a longer wait time. Last Tiamat run finished literally with a few seconds to spare. I also completed LOMM for the first time!

  • dionchidionchi Posts: 815Member Arc User

    I think I will introduce another variant to this problem.

    I think that RLQ should be for people leveling.

    It should not be worth entering RLQ with a lvl 80 25K IL character. With a character of that level all the instances in RLQ are ridicously easy and I find very ilogical that those players are entering RLQ.

    I think it would be good to remove the rAD reward from RLQ for lvl80 characters, and increase for example the RAQ and RIQ rewards to compensate that.

    From what I understand in addition to making RLQ's queue faster, giving higher level characters access to RLQ's was supposed to be so that lower level characters can learn how to better play by watching veteran players - maybe even get a higher level player to offer insight to a lower level player how to better configure their character - which of course rarely happens when a higher level character takes off running ahead, leaving lower level characters behind to fend for themselves. That was a problem pre-Mod16 and despite changes intended to address this, remains a problem currently.

    Eventually I figure movement speed for anyone entering RLQ's will be moderated to be the same regardless of additional enhancements or upper level players will be denied access to RLQ's all together given the current behavior...

    But that's just my guess.
    onlymat said:

    The Reason queues don´t pop anymore is the whole class change. Many of the BIS DC´s I know are gone - they don´t want to be healing bots for People who still can´t finisch Malabog. I also know many of the BIS Pallys (Powershare ones) who also stopped playing and queuing - no Power share ends you with a too weak group and all your work over the past years helps nothing to improve the group as whole. So they also decided to stop - not only running but many of them left the game.

    -snip-

    So to write it down very easily: The Tanks and Healers (especially DCs) get destroyed with mod 16. Progress for them means nothing - if you play a 26k dc in Caste Never together with a 27k Pally Tank doesn´t influence the game one bit.
    A group with a 10k healer and 10k tank with 3 25k DPS is so much better than a group with a 26k DC with a 27k Tank and 3 10k DPS.

    Like I have written - the tanks and the DC´s are the only classes what don´t make a difference in a group - they give nothing extra to the group. With my 25.7k cw a dungeon run gets faster if it pops (I do a lot of damage) but with my over 26k DC the run get not influenced.

    With this decition to make Progress for tanks and dcs not needed (only in lomm) many high class DC´s and Tanks left.

    The needed change would be - make the DC´s and Tanks buffer again - I need to feel a difference if I play with a 10k DC or a 26k DC. Like I do on my CW. If this will not be done - no queues will pop anymore.

    I think the reason DC's got nerfed is because in addition to DC's, Paladins and now SW's can also act as "healers" on par with Clerics. Personally I don't mind Paladins instead of DC's being able to buff party members but since the primary roll of a Cleric is to heal - they should be able to heal over and above what any other class can, however that doesn't seem to be the case currently. Paladins can heal, buff and do damage, Scourge Warlocks can heal, debuff and do damage, but Clerics can only heal and do damage and the Cleric's healing seems to be little or no better than Paladins or Warlocks from my experience in the game. The Cleric's ability to heal is so low as a matter of fact, that if it weren't for the requirement of a healer in each party, i figure most groups would probably prefer to have a healing Paladin or Warlock in their group as opposed to a Cleric.

    ¢¢
    DD~
  • onlymatonlymat Posts: 283Member Arc User


    I think the reason DC's got nerfed is because in addition to DC's, Paladins and now SW's can also act as "healers" on par with Clerics. Personally I don't mind Paladins instead of DC's being able to buff party members but since the primary roll of a Cleric is to heal - they should be able to heal over and above what any other class can, however that doesn't seem to be the case currently. Paladins can heal, buff and do damage, Scourge Warlocks can heal, debuff and do damage, but Clerics can only heal and do damage and the Cleric's healing seems to be little or no better than Paladins or Warlocks from my experience in the game. The Cleric's ability to heal is so low as a matter of fact, that if it weren't for the requirement of a healer in each party, i figure most groups would probably prefer to have a healing Paladin or Warlock in their group as opposed to a Cleric.

    ¢¢
    not the nerf is the problem the problem is: Healers give NOTHING to the group. You rund random queues and you donß t feel a difference if you play it with a 26k healer or a 10k healer.
    So the guy upgraded his healer to 26k gets NOTHING for it. It doesn´t help the group its just not needed for 99% of Content and
    soo it makes no sense to upgrade healers or play them. Same with tanks.

    On my CW i feel the queues if there are 10k dps is inside or 25k dps! So it makes sense to upgrade DPS - it makes no sense to upgrade other than DPS.

  • eastcrow#9222 eastcrow Posts: 9Member Arc User
    edited September 24
    Simple Solution:

    1. Remove that mandatory 'holy trinity' for skirmishes. Put it back as it was.

    2. Nerf Bank Heist.

    Why? Because NOBODY loves it anyway (well, except a couple weirdos prolly). The ONLY reason peoples queue for that skirmish is to get the remaining balance of their weekly hauls. AI is a low level campaign, hence low level characters need to run it. No endgame players queue for that, like ever. Rewards are total garbage.

    3. Fire whoever had that idea.
  • dionchidionchi Posts: 815Member Arc User
    edited September 25
    onlymat said:

    not the nerf is the problem the problem is: Healers give NOTHING to the group. You rund random queues and you donß t feel a difference if you play it with a 26k healer or a 10k healer.
    So the guy upgraded his healer to 26k gets NOTHING for it. It doesn´t help the group its just not needed for 99% of Content and
    soo it makes no sense to upgrade healers or play them. Same with tanks.

    On my CW i feel the queues if there are 10k dps is inside or 25k dps! So it makes sense to upgrade DPS - it makes no sense to upgrade other than DPS.

    The reason healers now give "nothing" to the group is precisely because they've been nerfed.

    Clerics used to be able to heal a lot more and more often than they do now. In addition to healing Clerics used to be able to provide buffs to party members and again that ability has been removed from Clerics. Also as healers leveled up and were able to acquire more potent artifacts, enchantments, etc., their ability to provide even more healing to group members also increased significantly. That does not seem to be the case presently.

    I'm not arguing healers aren't significantly contributing to the group as a matter of fact I'm agreeing, but what I am saying is this didn't used to be the case pre Mod16 and the reason healers aren't significantly contributing to the group is because they've been nerfed.

    Several powers that used to heal pre Mod16 don't offer healing anymore and not only are Clerics not able to dispense the same amount of healing they did prior to Mod16 the cooldown period between being able to dispense healing has increased. We got characters with higher levels of hit points and at the same time healers have had their ability to heal reduced - at least that's the way I see it and I've played a DC since day 1 in Neverwinter.
    DD~
  • kors#9447 kors Posts: 65Member Arc User


    Even easier:
    - Remove Bank Heist from queue and queue list because it's garbage;
    - Same for IG, or, at least, make worth doing it.
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Posts: 259Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited September 25
    onlymat said:


    not the nerf is the problem the problem is: Healers give NOTHING to the group. You rund random queues and you donß t feel a difference if you play it with a 26k healer or a 10k healer.
    So the guy upgraded his healer to 26k gets NOTHING for it. It doesn´t help the group its just not needed for 99% of Content and
    soo it makes no sense to upgrade healers or play them. Same with tanks.

    The design was good, and then toys flew out of the pram with many crying loudy that they didn't feel as powerful as before due to the scaling.
    Sadly, and perhaps necessarily with the player-base hit already taken, Cryptic renegged and adjusted to give BIS their powerful feeling back.
    From that, you get a knockon effect eroding the design. Part of that is that the mobs etc get killed before you get to the point of relying on your healer. In two more rounds sicne then they've set about giving the enemies smaller hits and less health.

    A key facet of the design was to get rid of insta-kills, slow down combat, and rely on healers to get you through it. Bring the over-power back to DPS, and you get the win before you get to feel the need for the healer.

    The other game breaking consequence is the inability to even get random queues to pop. All the non-DPS classes now have a DPS paragon path. Because their "true role" isn't perceived with enough value and respect, they're queuing as DPS - and the queues are pretty much dead, unable to find tanks, and particularly, healers.

    It's pretty simple and obvious, that if the fights last long enough, and the enemies do enough damage that you're not going to survive without good healers - that this whole situation completely changes.

    Far as I can see, this one is on the players.
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