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DC near useless in ToMM?

Hi!

I had some aticipation and ilussion to enter ToMM with my DC. I have been preparing for some time, getting companions and equipment with the sole intention to be able to enter and finish ToMM.

I am very dissapointed when I have discovered that my DC is not wanted as healer because of the need of the paladin shields, as without them it seems near impossible to finish ToMM, and my DC is not wanted as DPS because it´s not a wizard or a rogue.

This trial at this point seems designed for 4 classes, and HAMSTER the rest.

Thanks for the dissapointment.
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Comments

  • devilxjkdevilxjk Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    just tomm is not for all, you have to wait for mod 18 like others. It's like an "extra content". Take it easy.

    i would only ask to @asterdahl if they are also monitoring which classe are playing Tomm to balance in mod 18
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User

    Hi!

    I had some aticipation and ilussion to enter ToMM with my DC. I have been preparing for some time, getting companions and equipment with the sole intention to be able to enter and finish ToMM.

    I am very dissapointed when I have discovered that my DC is not wanted as healer because of the need of the paladin shields, as without them it seems near impossible to finish ToMM, and my DC is not wanted as DPS because it´s not a wizard or a rogue.

    This trial at this point seems designed for 4 classes, and HAMSTER the rest.

    Thanks for the dissapointment.

    every run we completed had a DC in it, so what u percive is not how its for the ppl that actually finish ToMM
  • paulamyo#4926 paulamyo Member Posts: 73 Arc User
    tom#6998 said:



    every run we completed had a DC in it, so what u percive is not how its for the ppl that actually finish ToMM

    Perhaps my perception is bad. What does it mean "LF1M ToMM healer OP".

    It means that DC is so wanted that they let us for other groups or what?
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,439 Arc User

    tom#6998 said:



    every run we completed had a DC in it, so what u percive is not how its for the ppl that actually finish ToMM

    Perhaps my perception is bad. What does it mean "LF1M ToMM healer OP".

    It means that DC is so wanted that they let us for other groups or what?
    It's probably a counting issue, how many healers you need in ToMM?
    Guild: The Imaginary Friends
    If you disagree with me: My opinions are my own and do not reflect on my guild and friends.
    If you agree with me: My opinions are totally the guild official policy !
    ;)
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User

    tom#6998 said:



    every run we completed had a DC in it, so what u percive is not how its for the ppl that actually finish ToMM

    Perhaps my perception is bad. What does it mean "LF1M ToMM healer OP".

    It means that DC is so wanted that they let us for other groups or what?
    It means that u want 2 healers for ToMM, the most comfortable setup in my Opinion includes a heal OP and either a Cleric or a healwarlock.
    So yes, good healOPs are in Demand right now, but u dont want to take 2 pallys, so maybe those groups alrdy had a cleric.
    Now if u arent ok with 2x DC not beeing the optimal group comp, then thats another discussion, but DCs are definitly not useless.
  • paulamyo#4926 paulamyo Member Posts: 73 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:



    It's probably a counting issue, how many healers you need in ToMM?

    Oh yeah, the problem it´s that I cant count.

    3 responses until now:

    1- ToMM is not for you, DC, wait 6 months or so.
    2- Your perception is bad.
    3- The problem is that you cant count.

    Thanks for the input guys.

  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Member Posts: 316 Arc User
    A healer OP is required but there is room for either DC or soulweaver for the second spot. Burst heals and HoTs are needed as well, and a OP cannot do that.
    And for training runs, I think it doesn't hurt to take more supports as you will fail quite early.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,439 Arc User
    edited August 2019

    micky1p00 said:



    It's probably a counting issue, how many healers you need in ToMM?

    Oh yeah, the problem it´s that I cant count.

    3 responses until now:

    1- ToMM is not for you, DC, wait 6 months or so.
    2- Your perception is bad.
    3- The problem is that you cant count.

    Thanks for the input guys.

    What input you want if about 10 of the 12 successful runs yesterday had a dc...

    And people rely less on Paladins when they realize that defensive stats are not for show, but actually useful.

    Meanwhile, what you expected, for everyone to join in on your false parade? Sorry, no, DCs are welcome and needed. Yet, like every time, there are people that looking for groups, but only few organize and make groups, especially those that took the time and familiarize themselves with what needed, and the mechanics.

    Bottom line, read a guide, form a group, your spot is assured.
    Guild: The Imaginary Friends
    If you disagree with me: My opinions are my own and do not reflect on my guild and friends.
    If you agree with me: My opinions are totally the guild official policy !
    ;)
  • callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,498 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    micky1p00 said:



    It's probably a counting issue, how many healers you need in ToMM?

    Oh yeah, the problem it´s that I cant count.

    3 responses until now:

    1- ToMM is not for you, DC, wait 6 months or so.
    2- Your perception is bad.
    3- The problem is that you cant count.

    Thanks for the input guys.

    Bottom line, read a guide, form a group, your spot is assured.
    This is so true.

    Early on in NWO I learned I had to make things happen myself when no one else was going to do it for me.

    SO I learnt how to organise the Dragon Runs, organise BHE Trains in Lonely Wood and Barovia, learn how to get a group together for KOS and the other heroics. I learned how to get materials to make runes for ME runs.

    Sometimes you have to organise things yourself and others WILL join you :)

  • paulamyo#4926 paulamyo Member Posts: 73 Arc User
    I was expecting only some constructive responses, and oviously I was not getting that.

    The only thing that I expect is that the classes are balanced and some class is not the one necessary for the content. Would you go to ToMM with a DC and a SW? Most people wouldn´t, as I can see for the classes asked.

    And you are all talking all about healers, but DC is not designed only as a healer. All of you are assuming that if I enter ToMM, it will be as a healer. Why is Arbiter so back that you even don´t mention the posssibility to enter as DPS?
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    tom#6998 said:

    tom#6998 said:



    every run we completed had a DC in it, so what u percive is not how its for the ppl that actually finish ToMM

    Perhaps my perception is bad. What does it mean "LF1M ToMM healer OP".

    It means that DC is so wanted that they let us for other groups or what?
    It means that u want 2 healers for ToMM, the most comfortable setup in my Opinion includes a heal OP and either a Cleric or a healwarlock.
    So yes, good healOPs are in Demand right now, but u dont want to take 2 pallys, so maybe those groups alrdy had a cleric.
    Now if u arent ok with 2x DC not beeing the optimal group comp, then thats another discussion, but DCs are definitly not useless.

    I was expecting only some constructive responses, and oviously I was not getting that.

    The only thing that I expect is that the classes are balanced and some class is not the one necessary for the content. Would you go to ToMM with a DC and a SW? Most people wouldn´t, as I can see for the classes asked.

    And you are all talking all about healers, but DC is not designed only as a healer. All of you are assuming that if I enter ToMM, it will be as a healer. Why is Arbiter so back that you even don´t mention the posssibility to enter as DPS?

    can u point out why my response was not constructive? I didnt mean to offend u, im just stating how i see it.
  • nigantarnigantar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 28 Arc User
    Heal-DC is totaly fine at ToMM...so go for it boiz ;)
  • paulamyo#4926 paulamyo Member Posts: 73 Arc User
    tom#6998 said:

    tom#6998 said:

    tom#6998 said:



    every run we completed had a DC in it, so what u percive is not how its for the ppl that actually finish ToMM

    Perhaps my perception is bad. What does it mean "LF1M ToMM healer OP".

    It means that DC is so wanted that they let us for other groups or what?
    It means that u want 2 healers for ToMM, the most comfortable setup in my Opinion includes a heal OP and either a Cleric or a healwarlock.
    So yes, good healOPs are in Demand right now, but u dont want to take 2 pallys, so maybe those groups alrdy had a cleric.
    Now if u arent ok with 2x DC not beeing the optimal group comp, then thats another discussion, but DCs are definitly not useless.

    I was expecting only some constructive responses, and oviously I was not getting that.

    The only thing that I expect is that the classes are balanced and some class is not the one necessary for the content. Would you go to ToMM with a DC and a SW? Most people wouldn´t, as I can see for the classes asked.

    And you are all talking all about healers, but DC is not designed only as a healer. All of you are assuming that if I enter ToMM, it will be as a healer. Why is Arbiter so back that you even don´t mention the posssibility to enter as DPS?

    can u point out why my response was not constructive? I didnt mean to offend u, im just stating how i see it.
    Your response was ok, sorry. I didn´t see it in my post saying thanks for the help ironically, as you can see I mention the other 3 but not yours.

    I was typing when you posted and didn´t see it before.

    Sorry and thanks for the response.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,439 Arc User
    edited August 2019

    I was expecting only some constructive responses, and oviously I was not getting that.

    The only thing that I expect is that the classes are balanced and some class is not the one necessary for the content. Would you go to ToMM with a DC and a SW? Most people wouldn´t, as I can see for the classes asked.

    And you are all talking all about healers, but DC is not designed only as a healer. All of you are assuming that if I enter ToMM, it will be as a healer. Why is Arbiter so back that you even don´t mention the posssibility to enter as DPS?

    Because your main complain it about a healer and you compared to OP on several of your posts.

    Did you buy all your companions and gear as DPS or as a healer? If I were you, and can't afford both, I would gear a healer, because there is practically an assured spot there.

    Now why is it important if I go with a DC and an SW, or not, or DC and OP, the DC is there anyway, or you are a DC. You have a spot, your argument is moot.


    Constructive doesn't mean jump on the 'agree' bandwagon and support your 'infallible' arguments.
    When you are simply wrong, you are simply wrong.

    You were constructively shown that you are wrong, and what to do about it. It's up to you know try to either wriggle this argument with no end, or go and form a group..
    Groups for end-game ( a true end-game ) are not pugs, you need guild, friends, and the 'networking' it takes, or you can ofc form a pug group, did we see you do, "Looking for 2 tanks, 4 DPS for TOMM?" I guess not.
    Guild: The Imaginary Friends
    If you disagree with me: My opinions are my own and do not reflect on my guild and friends.
    If you agree with me: My opinions are totally the guild official policy !
    ;)
  • paulamyo#4926 paulamyo Member Posts: 73 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    I was expecting only some constructive responses, and oviously I was not getting that.

    The only thing that I expect is that the classes are balanced and some class is not the one necessary for the content. Would you go to ToMM with a DC and a SW? Most people wouldn´t, as I can see for the classes asked.

    And you are all talking all about healers, but DC is not designed only as a healer. All of you are assuming that if I enter ToMM, it will be as a healer. Why is Arbiter so back that you even don´t mention the posssibility to enter as DPS?

    Because your main complain it about a healer and you compared to OP on several of your posts.

    Did you buy all your companions and gear as DPS or as a healer? If I were you, and can't afford both, I would gear a healer, because there is practically an assured spot there.

    Now why is it important if I go with a DC and an SW, or not, or DC and OP, the DC is there anyway, or you are a DC. You have a spot, your argument is moot.


    Constructive doesn't mean jump on the 'agree' bandwagon and support your 'infallible' arguments.
    When you are simply wrong, you are simply wrong.

    You were constructively shown that you are wrong, and what to do about it. It's up to you know try to either wriggle this argument with no end, or go and form a group..
    Groups for end-game ( a true end-game ) are not pugs, you need guild, friends, and the 'networking' it takes, or you can ofc form a pug group, did we see you do, "Looking for 2 tanks, 4 DPS for TOMM?" I guess not.
    1- The first responses where: dont enter ToMM and wait for next mod, you are periceving it wrong, and you cant count. If you say that for saying that is not constructive I´m asking for jump on the agree bandwagon, well, I don´t agree.

    2- I talked about healers AND dps´s on the first post, and talked about OPs, and wizards, and rogues. After that everybody talked about the healers, so I answered. But from the start I talked about dps´s too. Its you that are assuming that if I enter ToMM, it will be as healer.

    3- I buy companions for healer, and other companions for DPS. It´s mandatory if you want to permorm in both. Different equipment, different runes. It´s like 2 different characters but with the same mounts.

    4-. If allways one of the healer slots must be for an OP, then many many DC´s and SW will get out. You know hoy many OPs there are compared with DCs for example? I´m not saying that we must left OPs out, simply that all the combinations should work, not oly the ones with an OP.

    One class being mandatory for healing is not fair. And 2 classes being preferred for DPS is not fair, all should be more or less balanced.
  • paulamyo#4926 paulamyo Member Posts: 73 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    And that "form your group with the classes you want" makes me laught.

    Enter and fail. But ey: you entered so shut up.
  • feadan#2363 feadan Member Posts: 69 Arc User


    I am very dissapointed when I have discovered that my DC is not wanted as healer because of the need of the paladin shields

    That's my experience looking for a TOMM group, too.

    The absurd thing is, they overhauled the whole game in mod 16 because healing was useless as everyone was either at full health or one-hit dead. Only took a few months and we're right back where we started :p
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,439 Arc User
    edited August 2019


    1- The first responses where: dont enter ToMM and wait for next mod, you are periceving it wrong, and you cant count. If you say that for saying that is not constructive I´m asking for jump on the agree bandwagon, well, I don´t agree.

    2- I talked about healers AND dps´s on the first post, and talked about OPs, and wizards, and rogues. After that everybody talked about the healers, so I answered. But from the start I talked about dps´s too. Its you that are assuming that if I enter ToMM, it will be as healer.

    3- I buy companions for healer, and other companions for DPS. It´s mandatory if you want to permorm in both. Different equipment, different runes. It´s like 2 different characters but with the same mounts.

    4-. If allways one of the healer slots must be for an OP, then many many DC´s and SW will get out. You know hoy many OPs there are compared with DCs for example? I´m not saying that we must left OPs out, simply that all the combinations should work, not oly the ones with an OP.

    One class being mandatory for healing is not fair. And 2 classes being preferred for DPS is not fair, all should be more or less balanced.

    You have BiS DC as both healer and DPS? With all the set of companion and gear it takes, capped critical avoidance on healer loadout? And capped offensive stats on DPS (except CA, no need for that). (just curious - this is not a snarky comment)

    I will more than agree that all combinations of DPS should work, and currently the DPS roles are not equal.

    The support classes have uniqueness, each work a bit differently, utilizing this uniqueness to the party benefit is not a bad thing. Are two DC viable? I"m actually sure they are, but it will take from the DPS to actually gear properly. Interestingly, most of those who jumped on the ToMM bandwagon without knowing what they are doing, are not geared correctly enough to do it with an OP, so they feel that a BiS uber super OP is mandatory.

    A good OP makes it easier, and cheaper, but that besides the point. Your post is "DC near useless in ToMM?" Which is 100% false.
    Is DC replaceable by SW, yes. Is DC DPS is under-performing, lets assume they do, does it make a DC useless in ToMM? Not even close to it.



    Guild: The Imaginary Friends
    If you disagree with me: My opinions are my own and do not reflect on my guild and friends.
    If you agree with me: My opinions are totally the guild official policy !
    ;)
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,439 Arc User

    And that "form your group with the classes you want" makes me laught.

    Enter and fail. But ey: you entered so shut up.

    The fact that you can't find a group as a DC, is not a class problem, is a "you" problem. Because a DC healer are welcome.

    In no place I've said form with any class, nor your argument was about any classes. Your attempt to strawmen is cute, but not well done enough.
    Guild: The Imaginary Friends
    If you disagree with me: My opinions are my own and do not reflect on my guild and friends.
    If you agree with me: My opinions are totally the guild official policy !
    ;)
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,439 Arc User
    edited August 2019


    I am very dissapointed when I have discovered that my DC is not wanted as healer because of the need of the paladin shields

    That's my experience looking for a TOMM group, too.

    The absurd thing is, they overhauled the whole game in mod 16 because healing was useless as everyone was either at full health or one-hit dead. Only took a few months and we're right back where we started :p
    This is not correct. This is what happens to people who do not understand the needed stats for the content, and think they can just waltz in.

    https://guides.jannenw.info/2019/08/03/tower-of-the-mad-mage-guide/

    Here, read the above, balance the stats, and no more one shots unless it's a mechanics. If people rather blame all the world on their failures but not learn and adapt, it's on them.
    Guild: The Imaginary Friends
    If you disagree with me: My opinions are my own and do not reflect on my guild and friends.
    If you agree with me: My opinions are totally the guild official policy !
    ;)
  • nigantarnigantar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 28 Arc User
    Ok....let me put it that way.....i am a Devout-DC and i have beaten the trial 10 times by now....how can u even think that dc´s are not welcome in ToMM-groups? If u can handle the mechanics and u know what to do u will always be welcome ;)
  • kangkeokkangkeok Member Posts: 1,121 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    From my perspective, people are putting too much credit on pally heals. Indeed pally heal provide an extra layer of hp as shield to the party but it has low heal magnitude. The ideal setup of a party would be consist of a shield provider ( pally) to provide extra layer of hp to the party and a high healing rate healer ( DC or SW ) to get the group hp up fast when the group hp got low or to outheal any high damage the group received. 2 pally is a bad setup since,

    1) their shield do not stack
    2) pally has low healing rate compare to other healer class and its gimping the party healing rate if u have 2 pally in your group.

    For example, pally's healing touch magnitude is 350, DC's bastion of health is 600 magnitude. Which would u rather have?If u have 2 pally in your group, u get only one 350 magnitude of shield and 350 + 350 magnitude of heal. However, if u had 1 pally and 1 dc setup, u will have one 350 magnitude of shield and 350 + 600 magnitude of heal. Its a misconception that pally is the only healer needed in Tomm.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    So end of line is "get BIS to avoid one shots"? From my perception there is no big difference compared to former mods. Except that some broken setups were fixed and megabuffs stopped, agreed. But a big difference? No.

    @kangkeok when my Oathkeeper will be stuffed fully his crit rate same as passive proc will lead to 350 heal plus 2x350 mag shield on crit, actually I spend like a 230k barrier, have to check and at 50% outgoing and swapping all my stones over it might spend a 100% "blue comfort" towards my teammember, but I totally agree about OP+DC/SW =good choice and OP +OP=kaka same as DC+SW=suboptimal (only for those who like the challenge)
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,439 Arc User
    edited August 2019

    So end of line is "get BIS to avoid one shots"? From my perception there is no big difference compared to former mods. Except that some broken setups were fixed and megabuffs stopped, agreed. But a big difference? No.

    Do you think a naked char should go into end-game content and not to die?
    With 20k Defense?
    With 30k Defense?

    Why is that so surprising that a player need gear to match the content? Because in previous mods, NW was broken without recognition and defensive stats had no meaning doesn't mean it is 'normal'

    Glass-canon build shouldn't be without consequences. And here are the consequences..

    PS - in no place I've said you need to be BiS for that purpose, but you do need a minimal set of defensive stats.
    Guild: The Imaginary Friends
    If you disagree with me: My opinions are my own and do not reflect on my guild and friends.
    If you agree with me: My opinions are totally the guild official policy !
    ;)
  • kangkeokkangkeok Member Posts: 1,121 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    There is one thing I learn from playing all the MMO in the past, dead dps is not a dps. If u spec as a glass canon, you are most likely to get one-shot especially in an end game content like Tomm. Its no longer like in mod 15 where all the buff in the world could make your glass arses to be tough like an iron. No one can blame the healer when someone get one shot. In fact, that person who get one-shotted should be blame. Its his responsibility to configure his own equipment and build.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    But I have serious question. Actually I am between 3 chairs. Focus on heal lock, try my dps loadout or switch all over towards Oathkeeper and enter mod 17. I feel like Soulweaver is a good addition to the trial but I find it hard to choose. What is the margin of power you should reach as a healer beside having 50%outgoing healing and as much critstat+critseverity as possible. Anyone got a recommendation?
  • nigantarnigantar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 28 Arc User
    with 140k power/ 140k crit ( round about ) u should be fine + 80k def and 85k crit-avoid and like 380k hp
  • kangkeokkangkeok Member Posts: 1,121 Arc User

    But I have serious question. Actually I am between 3 chairs. Focus on heal lock, try my dps loadout or switch all over towards Oathkeeper and enter mod 17. I feel like Soulweaver is a good addition to the trial but I find it hard to choose. What is the margin of power you should reach as a healer beside having 50%outgoing healing and as much critstat+critseverity as possible. Anyone got a recommendation?

    My warlock is only level 35 so no comment. Maybe ask at your warlock section in the forum? Its off topic to ask for warlock advice here anyway.

  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    The main topic is hardly worth answering so why care that much about? DC runs near every tomm as Devout loadout, answered.
  • cdnbisoncdnbison Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User

    Hi!

    I had some aticipation and ilussion to enter ToMM with my DC. I have been preparing for some time, getting companions and equipment with the sole intention to be able to enter and finish ToMM.

    I am very dissapointed when I have discovered that my DC is not wanted as healer because of the need of the paladin shields, as without them it seems near impossible to finish ToMM, and my DC is not wanted as DPS because it´s not a wizard or a rogue.

    This trial at this point seems designed for 4 classes, and HAMSTER the rest.

    Thanks for the dissapointment.

    Ok, a couple things stand out here:

    1. In your preparation, did you also get a group of people together to run with you? Crazy as it seems, having a guild / alliance to go with, or a solid friends list of people to contact is just as important for stuff like this. The folks that spent time on Preview working together are in-game now doing just that - grouping together, working together. They know each other, know what each brings, and know that they can count on each other in the fight. If you're just waving your arms in a chat channel, you're an unknown variable - which tends to be punished in content like this.

    2. There are 2 healer spots in ToMM. 1 for an OP (for dem shields, yo). That means in a group of 10, *1* slot is there for a Cleric or Templock. Most people know a solid healer, so that slot gets filled (see #1). It's not that they don't want *you*, or that they don't want *Clerics* - they just want a known quantity for the run.

    3. DPS - I main a cleric, and mostly in DPS spec. I do solid DPS, and have topped 100M in a one-wipe LoMM run - and even I will admit that a well played CW or TR will almost certainly humble me on the DPS charts. In content like ToMM, "does ok" doesn't cut it right now. Players want - for obvious reasons - as much bang for the buck as they can get. If someone had a choice between me as a DPS, or some of my alliance mates on the CWs / TRs, I'd totally get why they went with the heavier hitters.

    So, it's not that clerics aren't wanted - it's just that you're trying to fill one spot in a 10 person group, that was likely filled by "this healer I know".
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