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  • dogis#8617 dogis Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    Tyvm for answers.

    Can't make plenty of tests , as can't copy character to test server (((((

    hopefully some1 will post prop. tests about crit/healing and etc..with game/ACT
    screens.

    @greyjay1
    @gripnir78


  • dogis#8617 dogis Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    Did some tests.... attached......





    1st screen 59def (11% less) 59crit.avoid. = received dmg 58.6%

    2nd screen 75def (cap) 69.7 crit.avoid (cap) = received dmg 48.5%

    same results , with non and crit hits.....


    cm'on guys , Crit Avoidance only affect to getting lower chance on crit hit...not DMG......

    You were wrong , please...before to tell something , CHECK IT.

    Do NOT confuse ppl.....


    Sry for caps.


  • greyjay1greyjay1 Member Posts: 162 Arc User

    Did some tests.... attached......

    1st screen 59def (11% less) 59crit.avoid. = received dmg 58.6%

    2nd screen 75def (cap) 69.7 crit.avoid (cap) = received dmg 48.5%

    same results , with non and crit hits.....


    cm'on guys , Crit Avoidance only affect to getting lower chance on crit hit...not DMG......

    You were wrong , please...before to tell something , CHECK IT.

    Do NOT confuse ppl.....


    Sry for caps.


    I don't know who you are responding to, but yes, critical avoidance "only" reduces the chance to recieve critical hits.
    Critical hits deal 50% more damage than normal hits.
  • dogis#8617 dogis Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    @greyjay1

    Everyone else took ~60k damage, going off 50% critical severity a critical hit should deal ~90k damage


    prob. diff with translation, but that's what you tried to proove....isn't ?

    or you meantion as every1 else get 60k hit , and only you such a massive dmg ?!

    sry , if understand incorrectly 1st time.

    Cause what we saw from screen , the hit was for 320k.....if it would be for 215k it will be fine..isn't ?! and someone would stand near with you.... easy as it is.....split by 107k.
  • greyjay1greyjay1 Member Posts: 162 Arc User

    @greyjay1

    Everyone else took ~60k damage, going off 50% critical severity a critical hit should deal ~90k damage


    prob. diff with translation, but that's what you tried to proove....isn't ?

    or you meantion as every1 else get 60k hit , and only you such a massive dmg ?!

    sry , if understand incorrectly 1st time.

    Cause what we saw from screen , the hit was for 320k.....if it would be for 215k it will be fine..isn't ?! and someone would stand near with you.... easy as it is.....split by 107k.

    I was saying, if everyone took a non crit for 60k damage and I took the same hit, but crit, then it would have dealt 50% more damage aka 90k.
    (60k x 150% = 90k)
    And I should have survived in that case.
    However I took massively more damage => this is highly likely not related to crit at all!
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,166 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    tom#6998 said:

    tom#6998 said:

    arcanjo86 said:

    @asterdahl the 990 and 1010 char rings need to be bound to account while lower version need to be unbound, high item level rings need to be locked behind a time spent + rng in tomm, making them easier to acquire on ah by putting a pay to win mechanic were player cash in zen to then exchange for ad and buy them from ah, because its looking more like a pay to win rings. if this goes like this to live, i don't need to do tomm to get leg ring, i just neeed to farm ad for leg rings

    how are these rings pay to win? To have a playerdriven economy does not equal pay 2 win. And yeah, if you cant do Lomm but farm up the AD to buy the rings thats completely fine. Making them unbound has way way way more pros then cons. Its better for ppl that run ToMM since they can trade/sell the rings if they get ones the dont need/want, and its better for ppl that get HAMSTER by RNG, its better for ppl that dont run ToMM since they could buy them, and its better for the AD/ZEN economy since it will drain AD.
    I dislike where the top end rings drop from. They also should be placed elsewhere, also unbound, but have a lower % to drop. This would make it so that the average player doesn't feel slighted by this mod. Right now, this mod is for the top 1% in this game and that 1% will see less people playing as there is no new dungeon/trial for the lower geared/non-elite players to run.

    This is definitely DWF all over again. Seriously cryptic developers, go to DCUO forms and look up DWF and complaints on that from the community. You can learn from another company mistakes, but I don't think you will.
    interesting, so u basically think that the rewards should not correlate with the effort put into? Or how should we interpret this?
    There is already WAY to much valuable loot in Mindnumbing, 0 effort MEs that require nothing of the player except time. If this is where all the valuable loot should come from they can outright remove dungeons from the game, cause whats the point then?

    I strongly disagree with the Idea that the only factor in what loot u get during your playtime is RNG, that turns this game into a slot machine and nothing else.
    This fix/update will split the community moreso than what I saw with DWF in DCUO. I am for a more balanced approach that provides all players at least a way to earn the gear/item. Right now that is not happening with the rings if it stays as is as other pointed out the first few to land will be selling for 30M or maybe more. Yeah fair for the select few, but not all players considering how few will beat the content or have the AD to buy the rings.

    I can easily get into the trial as I have all the stats and everything that is needed and I love mechanical heavy content like this so I'm looking forward to this trial. However, I'm not a selfish player wanting to ensure my wealth in game grows while laughing at those that are less fortunate that cannot run specific content. I'm the type of player that has taken well under geared players through CoDG, T9, LoMM, etc.. to help them not only get through the content but learn the mechanics.

    The reality is this one update will simply split the game more and make some players angry and quit. The middle of the road players is what keeps gaming running when to many elite players are the only ones playing you will see the game change again but for the middle of the road player in hopes to safe face; it what DCUO had to do after releasing DWF unlike NWO they were doing MONTHLY content so it was an easy road to recovery at that time. NWO its every 4 months or longer so that won't be an easy road to recovery if to many players simply say enough is enough and quit.

    As for the ME and other content stuff they get dull and boring for those middle gear players that can't run ToMM and with that comes departure from the game. Next mod will help define NWO future.

    I'm looking forward to playing ToMM but I know most of the players I run with regularly won't be able to join me do to IL or not having the required stats.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 869 Arc User

    tom#6998 said:

    tom#6998 said:

    arcanjo86 said:

    @asterdahl the 990 and 1010 char rings need to be bound to account while lower version need to be unbound, high item level rings need to be locked behind a time spent + rng in tomm, making them easier to acquire on ah by putting a pay to win mechanic were player cash in zen to then exchange for ad and buy them from ah, because its looking more like a pay to win rings. if this goes like this to live, i don't need to do tomm to get leg ring, i just neeed to farm ad for leg rings

    how are these rings pay to win? To have a playerdriven economy does not equal pay 2 win. And yeah, if you cant do Lomm but farm up the AD to buy the rings thats completely fine. Making them unbound has way way way more pros then cons. Its better for ppl that run ToMM since they can trade/sell the rings if they get ones the dont need/want, and its better for ppl that get HAMSTER by RNG, its better for ppl that dont run ToMM since they could buy them, and its better for the AD/ZEN economy since it will drain AD.
    I dislike where the top end rings drop from. They also should be placed elsewhere, also unbound, but have a lower % to drop. This would make it so that the average player doesn't feel slighted by this mod. Right now, this mod is for the top 1% in this game and that 1% will see less people playing as there is no new dungeon/trial for the lower geared/non-elite players to run.

    This is definitely DWF all over again. Seriously cryptic developers, go to DCUO forms and look up DWF and complaints on that from the community. You can learn from another company mistakes, but I don't think you will.
    interesting, so u basically think that the rewards should not correlate with the effort put into? Or how should we interpret this?
    There is already WAY to much valuable loot in Mindnumbing, 0 effort MEs that require nothing of the player except time. If this is where all the valuable loot should come from they can outright remove dungeons from the game, cause whats the point then?

    I strongly disagree with the Idea that the only factor in what loot u get during your playtime is RNG, that turns this game into a slot machine and nothing else.
    This fix/update will split the community moreso than what I saw with DWF in DCUO. I am for a more balanced approach that provides all players at least a way to earn the gear/item. Right now that is not happening with the rings if it stays as is as other pointed out the first few to land will be selling for 30M or maybe more. Yeah fair for the select few, but not all players considering how few will beat the content or have the AD to buy the rings.

    I can easily get into the trial as I have all the stats and everything that is needed and I love mechanical heavy content like this so I'm looking forward to this trial. However, I'm not a selfish player wanting to ensure my wealth in game grows while laughing at those that are less fortunate that cannot run specific content. I'm the type of player that has taken well under geared players through CoDG, T9, LoMM, etc.. to help them not only get through the content but learn the mechanics.

    The reality is this one update will simply split the game more and make some players angry and quit. The middle of the road players is what keeps gaming running when to many elite players are the only ones playing you will see the game change again but for the middle of the road player in hopes to safe face; it what DCUO had to do after releasing DWF unlike NWO they were doing MONTHLY content so it was an easy road to recovery at that time. NWO its every 4 months or longer so that won't be an easy road to recovery if to many players simply say enough is enough and quit.

    As for the ME and other content stuff they get dull and boring for those middle gear players that can't run ToMM and with that comes departure from the game. Next mod will help define NWO future.

    I'm looking forward to playing ToMM but I know most of the players I run with regularly won't be able to join me do to IL or not having the required stats.
    u didnt adress my point at all so why did u quote me?
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,150 Arc User

    Snip.

    The harder something is the more rewarding it should be, otherwise people won't do it. It is a pretty basic concept. I won't take the time to write a full response and instead just quote myself from earlier in the thread since I basically addressed all this in my suggestion:

    Loot: @asterdahl
    I get that you do not want the weapons to be sold on the auction house, but I feel that at the very least, all the rings up to +4 should be sell able on the auction house with +5 remaining the illusive, hard to get item that is farmed for. This is good for multiple reasons:

    1) AD sink. Selling +4 rings drains 10% of their sale value from the auction house.
    2) Incentive to continue running the trial for a long period of time. There are very few people who will be able to initially complete the trial. To my knowledge, on preview, my group is the only one which is currently successful at that. Out of that list, there are even fewer who would continue to farm for the +5 rings. Giving us something to do with the excess rings we don't want is some form of incentive.
    3) Getting a high ranking ring of a type you do not need, which is good for someone else is frustrating. There is a great video by the developers of path of exile on trade and 1 of the things they comment on is that having a super rare and hard to get item is cool, but part of the bragging rights of having the item comes from the ability to trade it.
    4) Incentive to players who have not already unlocked it, to work towards unlocking it as an alternative way of making currency.
    5) This isn't something that is going to be, "on farm" for a while. Groups will be trying it and failing it for a long time and being able to complete it, proves that you don't "need" the drops anyhow.
    6) Once people have their weapons, there is little incentive to keep running it if it is hard to find people who want to run it. The rings would keep people running it and incentivize them to teach new players how to do the dungeon as they won't always have all the people online they need, instead of just quitting running it entirely.

    If you are unwilling to do that, in my opinion then no ring lower than +4 should drop and +1, +2 and +3 should be removed from the drop table. Having rings that serve no purpose to you drop which are bound or have no value is quite frankly insulting, considering the amount of effort and coordination it takes to be able to complete this trial.

  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,166 Arc User

    Snip.

    The harder something is the more rewarding it should be, otherwise people won't do it. It is a pretty basic concept. I won't take the time to write a full response and instead just quote myself from earlier in the thread since I basically addressed all this in my suggestion:

    Loot: @asterdahl
    I get that you do not want the weapons to be sold on the auction house, but I feel that at the very least, all the rings up to +4 should be sell able on the auction house with +5 remaining the illusive, hard to get item that is farmed for. This is good for multiple reasons:

    1) AD sink. Selling +4 rings drains 10% of their sale value from the auction house.
    2) Incentive to continue running the trial for a long period of time. There are very few people who will be able to initially complete the trial. To my knowledge, on preview, my group is the only one which is currently successful at that. Out of that list, there are even fewer who would continue to farm for the +5 rings. Giving us something to do with the excess rings we don't want is some form of incentive.
    3) Getting a high ranking ring of a type you do not need, which is good for someone else is frustrating. There is a great video by the developers of path of exile on trade and 1 of the things they comment on is that having a super rare and hard to get item is cool, but part of the bragging rights of having the item comes from the ability to trade it.
    4) Incentive to players who have not already unlocked it, to work towards unlocking it as an alternative way of making currency.
    5) This isn't something that is going to be, "on farm" for a while. Groups will be trying it and failing it for a long time and being able to complete it, proves that you don't "need" the drops anyhow.
    6) Once people have their weapons, there is little incentive to keep running it if it is hard to find people who want to run it. The rings would keep people running it and incentivize them to teach new players how to do the dungeon as they won't always have all the people online they need, instead of just quitting running it entirely.

    If you are unwilling to do that, in my opinion then no ring lower than +4 should drop and +1, +2 and +3 should be removed from the drop table. Having rings that serve no purpose to you drop which are bound or have no value is quite frankly insulting, considering the amount of effort and coordination it takes to be able to complete this trial.

    First I want to make this very clear, I believe the trial is to easy and should be made harder with a higher cap for enemy stats, higher IL requirement to access the trial and more mechanics should be added that requires team work that would make the trail even better. However, given their deployment schedule I know none of that would happen so the trial is what it is.

    Within that same breath the average player is not going to enjoy mod 17 at all. Just like the average end game player hated mod 15; whereas the average also hated mod 15 as it was mainly for new players. This mod is not even for most end game players it is for a very narrow group of players, no more than 5% of the in game population will complete this content within the first few months if not a year. With NWO having releasing not much in dungeon or trials annually this is really a bad move as it is for a very select few.

    Adding to the issue is now rings, top end rings for that matter, can be acquired only through dungeon and they can be sold on the AH. That makes it so the very few who beat this dungeon will get rich fast, yeah it removes some AD but it also is a Cryptic and NWO elite player way of waving its middle fingers at the rest of the community. Is that how players who can complete the dungeon want to be view.

    I do see your points Sharp and I'm not saying that the rings should have the same odds to drop in a ME; I believe the odds for ME should be similar to that of getting a legendary mount from a LB. Where the odds in ToMM would be similar to getting the electric collar in LoMM. See the difference? There is still a chance for the average without the need to drop millions to buy the ring, though the odds are not in their favor vs a player who completes ToMM who has a much higher odd of getting the ring.

    As for incentive again, it still would be there for the player running ToMM as they would have a higher chance at getting the ring and being able to sell it.
    tom#6998 said:

    tom#6998 said:

    tom#6998 said:

    arcanjo86 said:

    @asterdahl the 990 and 1010 char rings need to be bound to account while lower version need to be unbound, high item level rings need to be locked behind a time spent + rng in tomm, making them easier to acquire on ah by putting a pay to win mechanic were player cash in zen to then exchange for ad and buy them from ah, because its looking more like a pay to win rings. if this goes like this to live, i don't need to do tomm to get leg ring, i just neeed to farm ad for leg rings

    how are these rings pay to win? To have a playerdriven economy does not equal pay 2 win. And yeah, if you cant do Lomm but farm up the AD to buy the rings thats completely fine. Making them unbound has way way way more pros then cons. Its better for ppl that run ToMM since they can trade/sell the rings if they get ones the dont need/want, and its better for ppl that get HAMSTER by RNG, its better for ppl that dont run ToMM since they could buy them, and its better for the AD/ZEN economy since it will drain AD.
    I dislike where the top end rings drop from. They also should be placed elsewhere, also unbound, but have a lower % to drop. This would make it so that the average player doesn't feel slighted by this mod. Right now, this mod is for the top 1% in this game and that 1% will see less people playing as there is no new dungeon/trial for the lower geared/non-elite players to run.

    This is definitely DWF all over again. Seriously cryptic developers, go to DCUO forms and look up DWF and complaints on that from the community. You can learn from another company mistakes, but I don't think you will.
    interesting, so u basically think that the rewards should not correlate with the effort put into? Or how should we interpret this?
    There is already WAY to much valuable loot in Mindnumbing, 0 effort MEs that require nothing of the player except time. If this is where all the valuable loot should come from they can outright remove dungeons from the game, cause whats the point then?

    I strongly disagree with the Idea that the only factor in what loot u get during your playtime is RNG, that turns this game into a slot machine and nothing else.
    This fix/update will split the community moreso than what I saw with DWF in DCUO. I am for a more balanced approach that provides all players at least a way to earn the gear/item. Right now that is not happening with the rings if it stays as is as other pointed out the first few to land will be selling for 30M or maybe more. Yeah fair for the select few, but not all players considering how few will beat the content or have the AD to buy the rings.

    I can easily get into the trial as I have all the stats and everything that is needed and I love mechanical heavy content like this so I'm looking forward to this trial. However, I'm not a selfish player wanting to ensure my wealth in game grows while laughing at those that are less fortunate that cannot run specific content. I'm the type of player that has taken well under geared players through CoDG, T9, LoMM, etc.. to help them not only get through the content but learn the mechanics.

    The reality is this one update will simply split the game more and make some players angry and quit. The middle of the road players is what keeps gaming running when to many elite players are the only ones playing you will see the game change again but for the middle of the road player in hopes to safe face; it what DCUO had to do after releasing DWF unlike NWO they were doing MONTHLY content so it was an easy road to recovery at that time. NWO its every 4 months or longer so that won't be an easy road to recovery if to many players simply say enough is enough and quit.

    As for the ME and other content stuff they get dull and boring for those middle gear players that can't run ToMM and with that comes departure from the game. Next mod will help define NWO future.

    I'm looking forward to playing ToMM but I know most of the players I run with regularly won't be able to join me do to IL or not having the required stats.
    u didnt adress my point at all so why did u quote me?
    I played other games with harder content and you know what I got from beating the harder content, not some stupid award/ring where I can rip off other players because I was the first to complete the content. Instead I got a very cool and unique title, a vanity pet, and a new and unique style that was only available by beating said content.

    I feel bad for people who think that the award for beating hard content should be an item that can be sold for millions.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,166 Arc User



    You realize that its a 10 man trial, with 1 single drop? even if its 1 drop and they sell it for 30 mil, there arent many people out there rushing to buy it, so the price will drop and drop and drop until it will reach a decent price, maybe 8 mil AD, and all of that is going to get split in 10. because no one will agree to pick up the loot and keep it for themselves. Running few times a difficult dugneon with a group of people creates bonds which also helps at improving trust, so no one is going to ninja loot, because no one is going to play that Trial with him... I dont kno where are your concerns coming from thou... the game in module 0 was exactly like this, and people were scared of public queue and not the private groups, while this Trial is intended to private groups mostly, to guilds, to friends, i have no idea why you want to trivialize this Trial, like the rest of the game is right now.. imo all of the other Dungeons should follow the example of this Trial, make them hard, and rewarding with BoE.

    First, how am I trying to trivialize the trial like the rest of the game? I want the trial to be harder or have you missed that part? Go back and read what I posted. Even in a prior post where I asked for a normal I wanted the master version if it could be done, to be harder. Again, never have I asked for the trial to be gimped so that elite players don't have something worth running.

    As for my where I'm coming from; I'm looking at this from a bigger picture and the impact this mod will have to full game community and not a select few. IMO content needs to be designed for most players and if you design content that is specifically for elite end game player you need to have a similar option with lower awards for the average player. It is why I am all for normal and master content. Master content should have additional mechanics, enemies with high stats and BtA awards that are better than what is found in normal.

    This update is for the 5% and more than likely the same group that doesn't need the AD from a 8M ring sale.
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 423 Arc User
    First of all, the rings are like leg mounts imho, a sign of prestige, but in no way are they required to beat any of the content currently in Neverwinter. There's only really two types of people I can see buying the rings at a high price, and once these people get theirs, the prices will fall to more reasonable numbers, just like staff of flowers for example. The two types of people I can see buying these rings are:

    1) PvP players that want a competitive advantage in stats before others can get theirs.
    2) Anyone that just wants to look cool.

    I can't see any other valid reason to purchase a +4/5 ring from ToMM as all the counter stats to enter into that dungeon are already easily achievable even using old gear.

    All content in the game is completable without a leg mount and will be without any of these rings. And honestly, these rings do even less for you than a leg mount does, what do they do? Increase your counter stats even further past the caps and are basically useless in all pve content.

  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 869 Arc User
    ppl like u are what trigger me the most @mebengalsfan#9264

    claiming that it will be soooo easy for u, cause u are the greatest player ever, but because u have such a big hearth u care about the "casual" player so much, that u have to argue here for their imaginary position because they for some reason cant use the forums.

    U know what, it wouldnt surprise me if u will never even set foot into the new trial.
  • dogis#8617 dogis Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    Can some1 confirm, is any rune works against new boss !?

    Thank you.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,150 Arc User
    Although it is too late in development now, I am throwing these ideas here in the hopes we can maybe? see some stuff like this in future.

    Phase 1:
    1. Could have been improved by having him use the Castle Never 2nd boss ceiling swap mechanic.
    2. He could also maybe use the Orcus balls mechanic here.

    Phase 3:
    1. Reuse an altered version of the eCC firebomb, which target locks a single player and does not deal initial damage when it hits them, takes ~4 seconds after being targeted to be thrown and then on impact it leaves a persistent ground AoE. The AoE expires when he flies away to use Disintegration Wave.
    2. At 30% hp a second Halaster appears, who cannot be targeted and is aggroed towards whoever has the second highest aggro. Every 40 seconds he teleports to a different quadrant and does a disintegration wave, until the fight is over. In between the disintegration wave he sends Arcane Blasts and shoots large "chromatic orbs" as projectiles, which you can avoid by moving out of the way of them as they travel in a straight direction. The ghost does not use his standard array of Heatwave, Super Storm and Whiteout.
    3. The platform in Phase 3 is split into 3 concentric disks, which rotate in opposite directions to each other slowly.The ground effects however would remain static, so you would need to be careful repositioning to avoid effects on the ground.
    4. Add an attack called Power Surge which begins by applying a DoT on everyone which ticks for 10% of their hp per tick and after 10 ticks it stops, then it heals them for 150% of their HP. If anyone ends up with more than 200% of their hp, those players immediately die.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,011 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    asterdahl said:

    hustin1 said:

    asterdahl said:

    asterdahl said:

    hustin1 said:

    ToNG came out before scaling. That changes everything, now. You won't be able to rely on power creep to carry you through it a mod or two from now, as with ToNG. Wherever the devs set the arbitrary IL cap will determine how difficult it is pretty much for all time.

    I don't think the devs will listen, but they should release this as nToMM and eToMM.

    I understand your concern, but the item level cap on a queue is not the same as the item level required to enter. When scaling is enforced on the Tower of the Mad Mage (in quite a long while from now) we plan to scale everyone down to an item level where the Tower can have a reasonably high completion rate with a public group. If at that time, you want to experience something closer to the original difficulty, you will of course be able to select minimum item level scaling with a premade group.
    that doesn't negate the idea of a e trial vs n trial and e dungeon vs n dungeon. I really would like to see this. you're releasing a module that will only appeal to the bis of the bis. and those that aren't bis are already bored and leaving for other games, if you want to not lose players you need to release content that everyone can enjoy. i like the idea of having challenging content but having a normal dungeon that has mechanics that are similar but not as punishing is a good way for people to learn without being ridiculous. Codg really needed a n version with a camp fire. those that didn't get a chance to learn the mechanics when it first dropped never will get a chance to learn mechanics because it's unforgiving. we had n and e versions for a number of mods and they worked. they made everyone happy. why not continue with this old tradition that got left behind at some point. lomm as it stands is pretty easy and has HAMSTER rewards. there could easily be a more punishing version with good rewards. we have a lack of things to grind for to keep people inthe game. it would have been nice to see gear that is actually worth having that only drops from a difficult dungeon. but its ALSO really good to have the dungeon at it's current difficulty level so newer players can also enjoy it.
    Although the Tower of the Mad Mage is the only queued content releasing with Module 17, there is additional content releasing with the module, and that other content does not require nearly as high an item level or skill level. Ultimately, introducing an master and standard version of a piece of content is not a 0 cost proposition.

    What I mean by that is, we don't just flip a switch and make a normal mode of content this challenging, time would have to be spent making adjustments beyond simple numerical modifications, and then that version would have to be playtested, fitted with rewards, etc. In addition, a few modules down the road, having the two difficulties of the content when there is fairly lenient scaling in place puts the content in an awkward position. Sometimes the two difficulties feel very similar. Mechanically some of our older master-vs-non-master trials feel significantly different thanks to the non-master allowing infinite respawning, but this is something we would like to stay away from in all but the easiest content moving forward.

    Development time spent making that alternate version would directly be taken away from making other content, like new dungeons for coming modules which we can get started on earlier, and will be available for a wider range of skills. Currently that's where we are investing our time. However, as I mentioned, this is an experiment, so it's possible based on the reception now and over the coming months, that we will make adjustments to how we handle the next trial. So please continue to send your feedback and let us know how you feel once the trial's been on live for a while.
    The problem with not having a learning version is that it makes it very hard for many players to ever learn the mechanics. The stakes for success become so high that everyone wants a "sure thing". This manifests itself in private chat channels specifically for forming premades where only the most BiS are invited, for instance. It manifests in 95% of the LFG requests demanding only players who have run it before. It results in a lot of toxicity in the community as a whole as we get divided between the "invited" and the "invited-nots".

    This has been going on for quite some time. For a long time after ToNG came out, if you weren't part of the meta you couldn't get in a ToNG group to save your life. Same for CoDG, where it's even more critical that players have ample time to practice the mechanics. Many of these mechanics require not only knowledge but **practice**, and the effect of having no ability to learn the mechanics with lower stakes means many players never get that chance.
    I understand your concerns. However, one issue about having a "normal" difficulty version of mechanically difficult content to "teach" mechanics is that if the difficulty is not significantly lower, you run into the same issues where people are failing the mechanics and groups don't want to deal with wipes and stop inviting new players. If it is significantly lower, you run the very serious risk of people not actually learning the mechanics at all, because they can be ignored or other players can carry them through the mechanic.

    If a mechanic isn't lethal or isn't in danger of draining the healer's resources to the point that the group wipes, the mechanic will be ignored in favor of DPS. Of course, it's possible for hyper-motivated players playing these more casual encounters to try to use them as a chance to practice with low stakes of their own volition, but how many fall into that category is a question. The answer is usually a very small number.

    That's not to say that this isn't a problem we'd like to work to solve. Halaster builds upon a lot of mechanics that have been introduced in previous boss encounters. He may throw some new combinations at you, but for the most part its things you have already seen in other content, just flashier and with higher stakes. The reason I point this out is that we've been trying to build up the general library of mechanics that everyone is familiar with since I took over boss encounter design with Fangbreaker Island.

    It's been gradual, and I think the overall shift has been towards the playerbase handling mechanics better. Of course, before Module 16, there were so many tools that could be used to circumvent the need to deal with mechanics, so that has always been a major setback. From that perspective, Module 16 was a big step forward. But we're still building.

    But the issue you are describing of learning groups vs. farm groups is something that any game with difficult, group-oriented content struggles with. There are a number of ways it can be approached, and we have tried some things. The new player bonus in random queues for instance, incentivizes helping new players. Of course, if that incentive is large enough for players to bother teaching someone how to do something as difficult as this trial, it's likely to be so big that there's a motivation to seek out players who may not have even wanted to do the content, or maybe even roll up new characters.

    Phew! I think I rambled a bit there, so I do apologize. Putting in better tools for players to "teach" themselves, and others, as well as to learn is definitely something on our minds now that we've finally solved some of the issues with mechanics being something that can be easily ignored. I don't have anything to announce right now on that front to coincide with this trial, but we'd like to first see how something of this difficulty is received by the community. I can't stress enough that, if you're really enjoying the content, please let us know!
    in the past the main difference between the two (n trial m trial) has been strategically placed camp fire or respawn options not serious difficulty changes. codg needed a campfire before going into the tilt phase and having a restart at the baby option. basically chances to go again after a fail without having to start over so you actually have a chance to learn the mechanics.
    I don't know how it would be applicable to this trial because i haven't done it yet.
    msva sva was a chance to respawn instead of being out.

    from what I've read here it seems like something along these lines would be beneficial in a lesser rewarded version where it would be possible to actually learn what to do without the punishment of having to start it all over again.

    castle ravenloft. could have had a n version with the same difficulty where you can rejoin the fight if you fail a part of it or restart with his health where it was when you died.

    Post edited by thefiresidecat on
    xbox guild

    Main toons
    Tiberius Rex SW Combat hr 17.4k
    Rincewind CW 18k


    PC imaginary friends special events only

  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,150 Arc User
    please do not remove any of the mechanics from the current version, it is a lot of fun to do and in my opinion the added mechanics don't make it significantly more difficult. If anything, just increase the timer and call it a day.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,150 Arc User
    During the final phase he sometimes does Disintegration Wave on diametrically opposite sides of the platform, forcing a party wide death as there are no safe spaces to stand:


  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 317 Arc User
    The reward rings are madly overstatted, but the extra stat has zero utility. the If you have these rings, you've already got through the only content where you would be helped out and people who are on 24k item level already had the required caps (at least for the offensive) or those caps are not need to be filled to grind the content. It'd probably helpful in the next content, but those content will be designed with these ring in mind, so it just creates a problem for itself to solve.

    Now, on a more specific notes:



    Making a ring (or anything) into a single stat makes balancing your character stats a nightmare. As I said, this won't matter in this mod, but if it does matter in mod18, I have to go and design my whole character around 1 ring excess stats. A ring that I'm not even using for it's stat, but the effect. These are the times where I miss the power as a choice from the equipment.



    Why there are 3 types of the same ring? Or why there are not 3 type of every ring? The latter would make the content more interesting and dillute the reward pool naturally, so the rare versions of the rings could be removed.

  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 423 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    ^^ Like I said, only people who will buy these rings are pvpers, those that want to look cool, or maybe even those that look at them like collectables.

    So everyone should just stop trippin over these damn rings and them being boe and only accessible to the top 1%.

  • nigantarnigantar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 20 Arc User
    Bug:

    Class: DC / Arbiter
    Feat: Focused Light

    After Permafrost the feat "Focused Light" is not longer working as intended ( Daunting Light works as it works without that feat ).
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 317 Arc User
    edited July 2019

    ^^ Like I said, only people who will buy these rings are pvpers, those that want to look cool, or maybe even those that look at them like collectables.

    So everyone should just stop trippin over these damn rings and them being boe and only accessible to the top 1%.

    @quickfoot#7851 No, everyone should not just "stop trippin over these damn rings", because the whole point of the preview forum is to think before making mistakes.

    First, if you can convert real money into the BiS items, that's P2W, which you can, by buying and selling Zen.

    Second, effort does not get you the rings, it's an RNG roll. You've got the Lionheart set for your effort, because that was the actual result of your work. The rings are just a lottery, where you have to beat the cashier to get your scratchers. For example, there are people who have not got the Rising power legendary ring for years, even though they went more than 300 Demogorgons. While other people got them in less than 10 runs. That's plain luck.

    So, if we want to reward the players running tomm for their actual effort, they should actually get something of value, not just in a really low possibility.


    Now, do I have problem with the +4-5 rings being the P2W luckrolls? Not really. This game, in essence, is free to play, but not free to maintain. Until they try an almost suicidal attempt to be subscription-based (which I'd personally endorse for a fitting price), the game needs to encourage paying. It can stay BoE.

    But this trial has an artifact set, which is garbage and would bring the same value for those who farm it as the rings if it were desireable (so, good). If diversity is a problem, maybe nerf the demogorgon set, what everyone uses make 3-4 type of it. Or make the Lionheart set drop in a BoE state from the trial. But at least both will be an AD and ward sink for those who willing to pay.

    Making the rings the only thing worth getting and selling is not really good monetizationwise, unrewarding for those who get it (and just won't need it) and very shortsighted. And, the almost +10k stat is just a ridiculous jump that is not needed. If there were a ton of item with inflated stats that will be fine, but only the rings flought through the roof.
  • greyjay1greyjay1 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    Hypothermia

    It would be nice if Hypthermia would work like this:
    Inside the Circle of the Hypothermia target: Everyone takes the same amount of damage (more players = less damage/player).
    Outside: No one takes damage.


    Right now it doesn't always work like this, if a player outside the circle is close to a player inside the circle, he will sometimes take massive damage. The same happens if a player runs into the circle a few frames before it explodes.
    Here are some more unexpected deaths from Hypothermia (with logs)

    Deaths of "Idiot Rogue" and "Get a Grip 12":



    Death of "Cara 7":


  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,166 Arc User



    You realize that its a 10 man trial, with 1 single drop? even if its 1 drop and they sell it for 30 mil, there arent many people out there rushing to buy it, so the price will drop and drop and drop until it will reach a decent price, maybe 8 mil AD, and all of that is going to get split in 10. because no one will agree to pick up the loot and keep it for themselves. Running few times a difficult dugneon with a group of people creates bonds which also helps at improving trust, so no one is going to ninja loot, because no one is going to play that Trial with him... I dont kno where are your concerns coming from thou... the game in module 0 was exactly like this, and people were scared of public queue and not the private groups, while this Trial is intended to private groups mostly, to guilds, to friends, i have no idea why you want to trivialize this Trial, like the rest of the game is right now.. imo all of the other Dungeons should follow the example of this Trial, make them hard, and rewarding with BoE.

    First, how am I trying to trivialize the trial like the rest of the game? I want the trial to be harder or have you missed that part? Go back and read what I posted. Even in a prior post where I asked for a normal I wanted the master version if it could be done, to be harder. Again, never have I asked for the trial to be gimped so that elite players don't have something worth running.

    As for my where I'm coming from; I'm looking at this from a bigger picture and the impact this mod will have to full game community and not a select few. IMO content needs to be designed for most players and if you design content that is specifically for elite end game player you need to have a similar option with lower awards for the average player. It is why I am all for normal and master content. Master content should have additional mechanics, enemies with high stats and BtA awards that are better than what is found in normal.

    This update is for the 5% and more than likely the same group that doesn't need the AD from a 8M ring sale.
    I m in no way elite, or consider myself elite, and to be honest not even the people that tried on preview the trial are that elite or hardcore... a Trial was released and some players are testing it, what makes them Elite? what makes you think they are the only ones can do it? make your group if you dont like that specific group, run with your friends, guilds or with stranger and challenge the content, i do not understand where is this fear coming from, and why people can't see that all of this "i want a piece of cake without effort" is actually ruining the game, it wasn't PVP players and it's not these 5% elitist soya milk dairy free players ruining the game, its you the majority on the forum, that will always try to nerf everythin that can drive players to do someth, reason why population left in this game is exactly this, Dungeons aren't the main attractive part of the game, its all of these boring micro mini games like quests and campaigns and heroics, all of these errands.. Game peaked when Dungeons were difficult and rewarding and items were BoE.

    Developers respondend already making a lower version would mean taking time to make a newer dungeon, i am not trying to pick a fight here, but if you are trying to see the bigger picture, try to see other perspectives, because i am not speakin from the perspective of a 26k item level player, i speak from a player that can't take all of these brain dead campaigns, and for once there is a Trial where we can consider it challenging and it should stay that way, because it's the only way to educate players and also make developers to relase even better ones, so that the game gains retention and other newer players will join and get the same thrill... If you dont understand it, go on Preview and try it yourself.
    All honesty I want the current ToMM to be harder not easier. That is just me. But at the same time I try to look at the bigger picture and that is the community and how the average players will react. Wait until mod 17 hits; than people will post it needs to be adjusted/lowered. Than it will hit console and if it is not fixed prior to console launch more players will come here and do the same. That is asking for the content to be fixed to be easier.

    Do you remember the mechanic of CODG for the original push pull. I loved it and you know what happened to many players could not stay up so the pull push was adjusted to be EASIER and yet still people fell off. I could do CoDG pull push in my sleep almost because it was so easy, prior to the fix and than it became so easy my dog almost could do it.

    I'm just speaking from experience as I have seen this type of situation in a MMO more than once now. It is why content needs to be design around the average player, especially when the game creates minimum content annually. With that said, if the devs want to create harder content simply tweak the normal and make it harder and add a few additional mechanics. Seen this done plenty in other games and has worked well.

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