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  • caldochaud#4880 caldochaud Member Posts: 182 Arc User
    Considering how Halaster had a habit of cloning himself (Ref: Neverwinter Nights:Hordes of the Underdark) , its too bad the chest didn't have a chance to drop a Halaster clone as a companion...
    "Talent is a flame. Genius is a fire." - Sir Bernard Williams
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,235 Cryptic Developer
    edited July 2019

    Any chance you will do another re-balance of the classes damage? I don't see the class balance to be well done right now and think another pass needs to happen. With some classes that are about to be left out of the trial due to how they perform I think this should be a big issue in this mod.

    Class balance will be something we are continually watching and adjusting, as the recent adjustments to Cleric and Paladin have hopefully made evident. There are some adjustments coming up in the not too distant future and we're currently building in more hooks on the back end to capture more data.

    We'd like to make absolutely sure that when we do make adjustments we're not overshooting so we don't have to buff anyone and then immediately nerf them. I do understand the frustration while waiting for these adjustments, however, and we absolutely appreciate your patience.
  • cherryman1cherryman1 Member Posts: 311 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    Any chance you will do another re-balance of the classes damage? I don't see the class balance to be well done right now and think another pass needs to happen. With some classes that are about to be left out of the trial due to how they perform I think this should be a big issue in this mod.

    Class balance will be something we are continually watching and adjusting, as the recent adjustments to Cleric and Paladin have hopefully made evident. There are some adjustments coming up in the not too distant future and we're currently building in more hooks on the back end to capture more data.

    We'd like to make absolutely sure that when we do make adjustments we're not overshooting so we don't have to buff anyone and then immediately nerf them. I do understand the frustration while waiting for these adjustments, however, and we absolutely appreciate your patience.
    I appreciate that. I want all classes to be able to do the new hardest content. If there is too much of an imbalance as right now some of the classes will 100% be left out of the content. I think that the classes are fairly balanced in two groups. The ones you did are similar in balance as are the ones that noworries did are similar in balance. The problem is that the distance between the two groups is vast in mod 16.
    Guild Leader: Under the Influence (GH20)
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  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,179 Arc User
    edited July 2019

    I don't know about other classes, you would need to check.

    for the spec that's best at running away:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQ2Z0G8P8VNR9bAzz1Y1BCgfab81nC6Iv-ZZdxO7MHDtsu2bzjN8A_NzV3qgnHjUBXEjJ1cn0YDIHta/pubhtml?gid=1302561348&single=true

    something something was checked with og hunt gear and not new rings something something not bothering to recheck

    ---

    not sure it's too relevant, but assuming the bonuses haven't changed since mod 13, looking at the Kiuno and Wrappers tabs to get a general idea of what counted as ranged or melee (not every ability was checked and you'd need to translate some abilities from the old names to new names)
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zVx4NtB1dT3Cm2XpgFmMQqI1fVxc4xPn9O6Lxd34uwI/edit

  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,011 Arc User
    @asterdahl devaluing doesn't seem likely to me with the trial. not many will be able to complete it anyway and people are going to want to equip stuff at first for themselves. if it isn't salable gear people just won't get it at all and it will be valueless to the people running it and so they will stop running it for something that takes less time. I think it's a super idea to have unbound equipment for sale on the ah or trade if nothing else. it will encourage activity and economy more than anything else. by the time the gear becomes devalued it's going to be on to the next mod.
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  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,071 Arc User

    There are healer checks in ToMM which are much more demanding than the nostura curse or the boreworm and prior to the nerfs, if 1 of our healers fell off or died we could still finish it just fine.

    OoT: The boreworm is not really a heal check. With my HR I found it's less risky just to walk/dodge around and chug a potion from time to time than to rely on a healer thay may get stunned or proned. It's an heal check only if you group up and eat the damage through healing.

    Back to the discussion. I understand that you may want to have some difficult content, I like it too as it sets a target to reach. The real issue is that in NWO only the last module top content is really relevant from a reward point of, so if you make it too difficult most people will just give up. At the beginning of the game valuable content was available in all dungeons, each epic dungeon dropped pieces of BOE armor sets, first boss at CN dropped rings, last boss dropped weapons, so people could progress through the game by doing different content, suited to their skill and gear levels. Obviously those more skilled progressed faster but also others could get meaningful stuff and feel a sense of accomplishment and progress. Today you have the choice of either mindlessly grind through super-easy stuff or to do the last top-level content, with almost nothing in between.


    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    By the way, do you know what the stat caps are?
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,949 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    Class balance will be something we are continually watching and adjusting, as the recent adjustments to Cleric and Paladin have hopefully made evident.

    The problem is just that it is next to impossible to balance the classes for all types of content due to certain fundamental decisions. Here is one example - I mostly play as a DPS Cleric - my favourite class/role combo. Now, if I am in a long fight, I can deliver about the same DPS as most of the the other classes (except Wizards, of course). So, is the balance OK? Well, if I am in some content that is dominated by a series of easy fights (trash clearing), I grossly underperform the other classes - this is because of the pip management - some other classes may enter the fight with a hard-hitting encounter off cooldown, while I have to build up pips to maximize my encounters, and by the time I do, the group may be dead.

    Now, I'm not really complaining, just pointing out that with design differences like this you cannot balance for all types of content, (boss fights, trash cleaning, PvP, etc..) at the same time.

    Make NWO great again, please....
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,949 Arc User
    Just wondering - are ToMM and the new expeditions considered "Undermountain", for the purposes of the "+5% damage in Undermountain" gear ?
    Make NWO great again, please....
  • hrakhhrakh Member Posts: 130 Arc User
    Still consider it very telling that in all the times @asterdahl talked about healers in his very welcome replies, the warlock was never mentioned...

    It must either not be a healer.. or its in a good place...
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 447 Arc User
    > @hrakh said:
    > Still consider it very telling that in all the times @asterdahl talked about healers in his very welcome replies, the warlock was never mentioned...
    >
    > It must either not be a healer.. or its in a good place...

    I've heard that warlocks are doing very nicely in the trial, so I am guessing they are in a good place. At least at that end of the skill range.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,150 Arc User

    By the way, do you know what the stat caps are?

    80k arp, 80k crit, 80k defense, 85k crit resist, 130k ca, 80k acc, 80k deflect.
  • lordaeoloslordaeolos Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 160 Arc User

    By the way, do you know what the stat caps are?

    Pretty easy to figure out any cap values on your own, this applies to all levels.

    You can find enemy stat ratings for a skirmish/dungeon/trial in the queue details.

    For arp, acc, defense, deflect and awareness: Enemy stat Ratings + 50,000 (so in ToMM, 30,000 + 50,000 = 80,000)

    For Crit Avoidance: Enemy Stat Rating + 55,000 (so in ToMM, 30,000 + 55,000 = 85,000)

    For CA: Enemy Stat Rating + 100,000 (So in ToMM, 30,000 + 100,000 = 130,000)
    "Lord Willow"
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  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 447 Arc User

    By the way, do you know what the stat caps are?

    Pretty easy to figure out any cap values on your own, this applies to all levels.

    You can find enemy stat ratings for a skirmish/dungeon/trial in the queue details.

    For arp, acc, defense, deflect and awareness: Enemy stat Ratings + 50,000 (so in ToMM, 30,000 + 50,000 = 80,000)

    For Crit Avoidance: Enemy Stat Rating + 55,000 (so in ToMM, 30,000 + 55,000 = 85,000)

    For CA: Enemy Stat Rating + 100,000 (So in ToMM, 30,000 + 100,000 = 130,000)
    Remember that Enemies have 10K more CA just like players do, so awareness is Enemy stat rating +60,000 (30,000+60,000=90,000)
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,166 Arc User
    tom#6998 said:

    arcanjo86 said:

    @asterdahl the 990 and 1010 char rings need to be bound to account while lower version need to be unbound, high item level rings need to be locked behind a time spent + rng in tomm, making them easier to acquire on ah by putting a pay to win mechanic were player cash in zen to then exchange for ad and buy them from ah, because its looking more like a pay to win rings. if this goes like this to live, i don't need to do tomm to get leg ring, i just neeed to farm ad for leg rings

    how are these rings pay to win? To have a playerdriven economy does not equal pay 2 win. And yeah, if you cant do Lomm but farm up the AD to buy the rings thats completely fine. Making them unbound has way way way more pros then cons. Its better for ppl that run ToMM since they can trade/sell the rings if they get ones the dont need/want, and its better for ppl that get HAMSTER by RNG, its better for ppl that dont run ToMM since they could buy them, and its better for the AD/ZEN economy since it will drain AD.
    I dislike where the top end rings drop from. They also should be placed elsewhere, also unbound, but have a lower % to drop. This would make it so that the average player doesn't feel slighted by this mod. Right now, this mod is for the top 1% in this game and that 1% will see less people playing as there is no new dungeon/trial for the lower geared/non-elite players to run.

    This is definitely DWF all over again. Seriously cryptic developers, go to DCUO forms and look up DWF and complaints on that from the community. You can learn from another company mistakes, but I don't think you will.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,166 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    Any chance you will do another re-balance of the classes damage? I don't see the class balance to be well done right now and think another pass needs to happen. With some classes that are about to be left out of the trial due to how they perform I think this should be a big issue in this mod.

    Class balance will be something we are continually watching and adjusting, as the recent adjustments to Cleric and Paladin have hopefully made evident. There are some adjustments coming up in the not too distant future and we're currently building in more hooks on the back end to capture more data.

    We'd like to make absolutely sure that when we do make adjustments we're not overshooting so we don't have to buff anyone and then immediately nerf them. I do understand the frustration while waiting for these adjustments, however, and we absolutely appreciate your patience.
    If you do class balancing you need to create a guild highlighting AoE and single target builds for each paragon for the pure DPS classes and than for the other classes dps paragon as well. You also should make the guides it available in game to help out new players to the game or to a class.

    Even with that said class balancing is a hard as it typically happens at a sparring target. At that you used capture data but are you capturing how a player runs through their rotation, what gear/enchantment the player is using, etc... than using that to help track where things are?

    Again, I'm going back to DCUO. They balanced all classes at a sparring target using their so called rotations etc.. the reality was burst type classes did more damage than DoT classes in actual game content. They eventually removed the simplicity and went back to an open game giving player more options as they found out that they cannot truly balance class do to factors and simply now try to get them close enough but not balance.

  • cherryman1cherryman1 Member Posts: 311 Arc User

    asterdahl said:

    Any chance you will do another re-balance of the classes damage? I don't see the class balance to be well done right now and think another pass needs to happen. With some classes that are about to be left out of the trial due to how they perform I think this should be a big issue in this mod.

    Class balance will be something we are continually watching and adjusting, as the recent adjustments to Cleric and Paladin have hopefully made evident. There are some adjustments coming up in the not too distant future and we're currently building in more hooks on the back end to capture more data.

    We'd like to make absolutely sure that when we do make adjustments we're not overshooting so we don't have to buff anyone and then immediately nerf them. I do understand the frustration while waiting for these adjustments, however, and we absolutely appreciate your patience.
    If you do class balancing you need to create a guild highlighting AoE and single target builds for each paragon for the pure DPS classes and than for the other classes dps paragon as well. You also should make the guides it available in game to help out new players to the game or to a class.

    Even with that said class balancing is a hard as it typically happens at a sparring target. At that you used capture data but are you capturing how a player runs through their rotation, what gear/enchantment the player is using, etc... than using that to help track where things are?

    Again, I'm going back to DCUO. They balanced all classes at a sparring target using their so called rotations etc.. the reality was burst type classes did more damage than DoT classes in actual game content. They eventually removed the simplicity and went back to an open game giving player more options as they found out that they cannot truly balance class do to factors and simply now try to get them close enough but not balance.

    Balance is bad right now due to the fact that they are balanced at the target dummy. That doesn't provide a good damage balance since not all classes and abilities hit all of the time which skews the end game results of classes when applied to normal game play. Balance at the top in abilities in end game content since mid game just means that a poor mid game class needs a little extra in stats and better items than a good early game class. Bad balance at the end game means a class that doesn't get into content.
    Guild Leader: Under the Influence (GH20)
    Yule (Barb): 26k : Siren (TR): 27k : Torun (DC): 27k : Siren OP (OP): 28k : Siren SW (SW): 25k : Modern (F): 26k : Cherry1 (CW) : 27k
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 869 Arc User

    tom#6998 said:

    arcanjo86 said:

    @asterdahl the 990 and 1010 char rings need to be bound to account while lower version need to be unbound, high item level rings need to be locked behind a time spent + rng in tomm, making them easier to acquire on ah by putting a pay to win mechanic were player cash in zen to then exchange for ad and buy them from ah, because its looking more like a pay to win rings. if this goes like this to live, i don't need to do tomm to get leg ring, i just neeed to farm ad for leg rings

    how are these rings pay to win? To have a playerdriven economy does not equal pay 2 win. And yeah, if you cant do Lomm but farm up the AD to buy the rings thats completely fine. Making them unbound has way way way more pros then cons. Its better for ppl that run ToMM since they can trade/sell the rings if they get ones the dont need/want, and its better for ppl that get HAMSTER by RNG, its better for ppl that dont run ToMM since they could buy them, and its better for the AD/ZEN economy since it will drain AD.
    I dislike where the top end rings drop from. They also should be placed elsewhere, also unbound, but have a lower % to drop. This would make it so that the average player doesn't feel slighted by this mod. Right now, this mod is for the top 1% in this game and that 1% will see less people playing as there is no new dungeon/trial for the lower geared/non-elite players to run.

    This is definitely DWF all over again. Seriously cryptic developers, go to DCUO forms and look up DWF and complaints on that from the community. You can learn from another company mistakes, but I don't think you will.
    interesting, so u basically think that the rewards should not correlate with the effort put into? Or how should we interpret this?
    There is already WAY to much valuable loot in Mindnumbing, 0 effort MEs that require nothing of the player except time. If this is where all the valuable loot should come from they can outright remove dungeons from the game, cause whats the point then?

    I strongly disagree with the Idea that the only factor in what loot u get during your playtime is RNG, that turns this game into a slot machine and nothing else.
  • greyjay1greyjay1 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    Bug Hypothermia
    My warlock had 383k HP and 80k Defense, (she also had >350k shielded HP), I think she shouldn't have died in this situation:
    The arrows were not targeted at my warlock. Sadly I did not run the combatlog.




  • gripnir78gripnir78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 374 Arc User
    greyjay1 said:

    Bug Hypothermia
    My warlock had 383k HP and 80k Defense, (she also had >350k shielded HP), I think she shouldn't have died in this situation:
    The arrows were not targeted at my warlock. Sadly I did not run the combatlog.




    Your crit avoidance is very low - you can see on the picture you were critically hited - WAI.

    Dont blame game for your lack of stats here
  • dogis#8617 dogis Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    gripnir78 said:

    greyjay1 said:

    Bug Hypothermia
    My warlock had 383k HP and 80k Defense, (she also had >350k shielded HP), I think she shouldn't have died in this situation:
    The arrows were not targeted at my warlock. Sadly I did not run the combatlog.




    Your crit avoidance is very low - you can see on the picture you were critically hited - WAI.

    Dont blame game for your lack of stats here
    Critical Avoidance only reduce "chance" to get critical hit. Not dmg.

    1)shielded HP should be over 500k (if you would go with x2 paladins) it will raise up your survivability.
    2)as we can see from screen 1 you were only 3-4 ppl at "arrow" area. on 2nd screen , only 2 ppl over there...instead to be all together and split dmg. Seems like you havn't done mehanics properly , and as a result = death.
  • dogis#8617 dogis Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    New weapons, would be only 2% higer base dmg then previous (with no useful bonuses) 100%+5% of pwer , still will be more useful, then 102% +5% arm.pen. and 5% def. any ideas to rework new wepaons !? Thank you.
  • gripnir78gripnir78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 374 Arc User

    gripnir78 said:

    greyjay1 said:

    Bug Hypothermia
    My warlock had 383k HP and 80k Defense, (she also had >350k shielded HP), I think she shouldn't have died in this situation:
    The arrows were not targeted at my warlock. Sadly I did not run the combatlog.




    Your crit avoidance is very low - you can see on the picture you were critically hited - WAI.

    Dont blame game for your lack of stats here
    Critical Avoidance only reduce "chance" to get critical hit. Not dmg.

    1)shielded HP should be over 500k (if you would go with x2 paladins) it will raise up your survivability.
    2)as we can see from screen 1 you were only 3-4 ppl at "arrow" area. on 2nd screen , only 2 ppl over there...instead to be all together and split dmg. Seems like you havn't done mehanics properly , and as a result = death.
    Yes - it reduce - he is far below a cap like 31k short on it - so he is getting critted like every 3rd shot. With new module critical severity for opponents is turned on. As you see his dmg taken is critical that an may be some mechanical failure and voila - as I said - WAI
  • greyjay1greyjay1 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    gripnir78 said:

    greyjay1 said:

    Bug Hypothermia
    My warlock had 383k HP and 80k Defense, (she also had >350k shielded HP), I think she shouldn't have died in this situation:
    The arrows were not targeted at my warlock. Sadly I did not run the combatlog.

    Your crit avoidance is very low - you can see on the picture you were critically hited - WAI.

    Dont blame game for your lack of stats here
    Everyone else took ~60k damage, going off 50% critical severity a critical hit should deal ~90k damage, my warlock had >700k effective HP. Unless this attack benefits from significantly more Critical Severity, your suggestion makes no sense.


    1)shielded HP should be over 500k (if you would go with x2 paladins) it will raise up your survivability.

    Shielded Hit Points no longer stack, multiple paladins can not stack their shields.


    2)as we can see from screen 1 you were only 3-4 ppl at "arrow" area. on 2nd screen , only 2 ppl over there...instead to be all together and split dmg. Seems like you havn't done mehanics properly , and as a result = death.

    As far as I know the intended amount of people to survive Hypothermia is 5 people, since at a later point 2 of them appear at the same time.
    And again, my warlock did not have the arrows on it.

    Anyways I do believe that the damage was so high, because I may have immunity-framed the following debuff:

    If that's the case, is it working as intended?

    Here is the timestamp of viral's stream:
    https://twitch.tv/videos/457875023?t=44m00s

    @asterdahl could you please clarify?
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