This is a HUGE change and doesn't effect all classes equally. The fact you don't see giving a very large % of damage an issue let me put it into a different set of terms.
Putting on the brakes right here. You speak as if the change to CA some players are asking for is giving away a ton of damage for free that isn't already perfectly available to everyone. Any player who is dealing great damage already is doing so in large part by leveraging combat advantage, regardless of class. Good Wizards, Warlocks, Arbiters etc. are already getting CA. The only class that consistently gets CA regardless of positioning right now is Warlock while having NPNM slotted; every other class in the game needs to be sufficiently close to the target to enjoy CA uptime.
You vastly overstate the risks of being close to enemies and are selling short the advantages of staying closer together as a group. Even with the buff meta gone, there are compelling reasons to stay within reasonably close range and very few reasons not to do so.
If they do change CA at some point, the only appreciable difference will be that bad DPS who camp out away from the party will do more damage, but not as much as those who are better positioned. As discussed earlier, they will also be completely at the mercy of the tank's chosen positioning and have to spend a lot more time adjusting if they lose CA and are forced to fix it on their end. Staying within 20' is just so much easier on yourself and everyone else.
We already argued about these points earlier with other people on the why's these are incorrect. Physics explains the tanks positioning and how they get it more frequent. For some reason you still haven't gotten that even if something doesn't kill you there are still dodges and blocks that happen in game to slow down the melee class with stuns/immobilization effects/knock downs. The discussion has been on how those slow down the dps in the fight for melee as compared to how frequent you can freely attack as a ranged player in older content. They also can kill the less prepared players of those classes.
I'm gonna stop the discussion since we have come around full circle and going over the same things as previously discussed.
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
This is a HUGE change and doesn't effect all classes equally. The fact you don't see giving a very large % of damage an issue let me put it into a different set of terms.
Putting on the brakes right here. You speak as if the change to CA some players are asking for is giving away a ton of damage for free that isn't already perfectly available to everyone. Any player who is dealing great damage already is doing so in large part by leveraging combat advantage, regardless of class. Good Wizards, Warlocks, Arbiters etc. are already getting CA. The only class that consistently gets CA regardless of positioning right now is Warlock while having NPNM slotted; every other class in the game needs to be sufficiently close to the target to enjoy CA uptime.
You vastly overstate the risks of being close to enemies and are selling short the advantages of staying closer together as a group. Even with the buff meta gone, there are compelling reasons to stay within reasonably close range and very few reasons not to do so.
If they do change CA at some point, the only appreciable difference will be that bad DPS who camp out away from the party will do more damage, but not as much as those who are better positioned. As discussed earlier, they will also be completely at the mercy of the tank's chosen positioning and have to spend a lot more time adjusting if they lose CA and are forced to fix it on their end. Staying within 20' is just so much easier on yourself and everyone else.
We already argued about these points earlier with other people on the why's these are incorrect. Physics explains the tanks positioning and how they get it more frequent. For some reason you still haven't gotten that even if something doesn't kill you there are still dodges and blocks that happen in game to slow down the melee class with stuns/immobilization effects/knock downs. The discussion has been on how those slow down the dps in the fight for melee as compared to how frequent you can freely attack as a ranged player in older content. They also can kill the less prepared players of those classes.
I'm gonna stop the discussion since we have come around full circle and going over the same things as previously discussed.
I suppose we'll end on the note of agreeing to disagree, because you clearly haven't "gotten it," either.
This is a HUGE change and doesn't effect all classes equally. The fact you don't see giving a very large % of damage an issue let me put it into a different set of terms.
Putting on the brakes right here. You speak as if the change to CA some players are asking for is giving away a ton of damage for free that isn't already perfectly available to everyone. Any player who is dealing great damage already is doing so in large part by leveraging combat advantage, regardless of class. Good Wizards, Warlocks, Arbiters etc. are already getting CA. The only class that consistently gets CA regardless of positioning right now is Warlock while having NPNM slotted; every other class in the game needs to be sufficiently close to the target to enjoy CA uptime.
You vastly overstate the risks of being close to enemies and are selling short the advantages of staying closer together as a group. Even with the buff meta gone, there are compelling reasons to stay within reasonably close range and very few reasons not to do so.
If they do change CA at some point, the only appreciable difference will be that bad DPS who camp out away from the party will do more damage, but not as much as those who are better positioned. As discussed earlier, they will also be completely at the mercy of the tank's chosen positioning and have to spend a lot more time adjusting if they lose CA and are forced to fix it on their end. Staying within 20' is just so much easier on yourself and everyone else.
We already argued about these points earlier with other people on the why's these are incorrect. Physics explains the tanks positioning and how they get it more frequent. For some reason you still haven't gotten that even if something doesn't kill you there are still dodges and blocks that happen in game to slow down the melee class with stuns/immobilization effects/knock downs. The discussion has been on how those slow down the dps in the fight for melee as compared to how frequent you can freely attack as a ranged player in older content. They also can kill the less prepared players of those classes.
I'm gonna stop the discussion since we have come around full circle and going over the same things as previously discussed.
Good ranged dps classes are already in the same spot as melee dps to take advantage of buffs/healings/etc, so those same stuns/immobilization/etc are going to affect the ranged classes as they do with melee, they don't just magically not affect ranged characters in melee range. This change doesn't affect the "Meta" in any way. All the change will do is give early/mid geared ranged characters who don't stand with the rest of the group more damage.
1) Weapon Damage is the same for all classes now. Yes I said it, go check if you don't believe me.
2) The wide disparity in terms of DPS in some classes especially the HR and Wizard. Yes they should get the combat advantage bonus, however the difference in DPS will just be that wider.
So you can talk around it all you want about positioning, pros and cons about fighting up close vs at range etc it all comes down to the point that there is no class balance. Certain classes will be in demand over others which is the sad reality of the situation.
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therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
I'll bring this up to the rest of the team for discussion/answers!
its actually 15' not 50, this forces ranged classes to play melee.
What's even more weird, if I am not mistaken there is an armour item with 1000 item Level that adds to your CA when you are more than 50' AWAY from your enemy.
Hmm! This is what this thread is all about if you read the first few posts.
I know. But what's weird is that he Devs KNOW that there is the range limit of 20' and still they create items that boost your CA when you are further away than this limit. As if the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing...
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,218Arc User
I'll bring this up to the rest of the team for discussion/answers!
its actually 15' not 50, this forces ranged classes to play melee.
What's even more weird, if I am not mistaken there is an armour item with 1000 item Level that adds to your CA when you are more than 50' AWAY from your enemy.
Hmm! This is what this thread is all about if you read the first few posts.
I know. But what's weird is that he Devs KNOW that there is the range limit of 20' and still they create items that boost your CA when you are further away than this limit. As if the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing...
Right hand never knows what the left hand is doing. Only the brain knows what both hands are doing.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
1) Weapon Damage is the same for all classes now. Yes I said it, go check if you don't believe me.
2) The wide disparity in terms of DPS in some classes especially the HR and Wizard. Yes they should get the combat advantage bonus, however the difference in DPS will just be that wider.
So you can talk around it all you want about positioning, pros and cons about fighting up close vs at range etc it all comes down to the point that there is no class balance. Certain classes will be in demand over others which is the sad reality of the situation.
no it won't. hr's are not ranged if they're doing high dps and adding range to ca won't change that. wizards have confines of their gear that require them to remain closish if they want to do high dps and that won't change either. wizards and hrs also tend to be on the squishier side. they get no support from tank or heals if they are far off. they're going to be spending more time dodging than the melee classes. it isn't that much of a benefit. people are really getting their knickers in a twist over nothing here. and if you're far away telling exactly what little zone you need to be in to get said CA is also a lot more difficult. i sometimes have a hard time finding exactly where I'm supposed to stand when the boss is spinnign around anyway good luck to someone at a distance who can't see the blue circle. odds are their uptime is going to be significantly lower than someone right there. there is no cone of effectiveness that extends 80 feet
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therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
I'll bring this up to the rest of the team for discussion/answers!
its actually 15' not 50, this forces ranged classes to play melee.
What's even more weird, if I am not mistaken there is an armour item with 1000 item Level that adds to your CA when you are more than 50' AWAY from your enemy.
Hmm! This is what this thread is all about if you read the first few posts.
I know. But what's weird is that he Devs KNOW that there is the range limit of 20' and still they create items that boost your CA when you are further away than this limit. As if the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing...
Right hand never knows what the left hand is doing. Only the brain knows what both hands are doing.
So, what you are saying is that they create useless items on purpose instead of lacking knowledge? Intriguing...
All this debate about whether them increasing CA limit will benefit rangers or not, lemme ask you, in previous mods, there was no limits to the range on CA, was there any advantage to rangers over melee classes? NO, so why is there going to be any difference now? it wont make any difference, the only thing it will do is give ranged classes more room to build their characters the way they want and not just go with the popular opinion of what is BiS or not. It gives no advantage to anyone over any other, it will just remove limitations which are currently in the game, not sure why this is such a big issue to see.
In previous mods, the only reasons why any ranged class would stay at melee range was mainly due to Annointed army buff, nothing else cos healing wasn't that important, even now its debatable whether u need as much heals or not, most of the time i end up using stones instead of waiting for the healer. Eitherway healers can equally heal you from distance so u dont really need to be right on their face for them to heal you.
Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
All this debate about whether them increasing CA limit will benefit rangers or not, lemme ask you, in previous mods, there was no limits to the range on CA, was there any advantage to rangers over melee classes? NO, so why is there going to be any difference now? it wont make any difference, the only thing it will do is give ranged classes more room to build their characters the way they want and not just go with the popular opinion of what is BiS or not. It gives no advantage to anyone over any other, it will just remove limitations which are currently in the game, not sure why this is such a big issue to see.
I don't even know many rangers that spend much time fighting at range anyway. So all they're getting is more room to possibly use ranged powers more frequently. I don't see the issue here. They currently have CA because most build melee warden and spend a lot of time in close range. Oh no, now they'll be as effective from a distance too? Why complain?
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arcanjo86Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,093Arc User
guess not many know, even if you aren't on ca position rogues in party can offer melee dps chars in party ca when they cast smoke bomb from stealth when melee dps isn't on flanking position, balance is there, all players need to experience and get knowledge about other class in the game and see what can they offer on a varied party composition, right now 2 rogues can synch their smoke bombs to provide combat advantage to 3rd melee dps in party(barb, fighter or ranger, yes rangers are locked to melee dps because rework ruined their switch from melee to range(vice versa) synergy battle style they had) and time it when each other can cast it. The range increased to 85 will open a new road for ranger, and for warlocks, clerics arbiter and wizards.
Giving CA in terms of damage is like giving somewhere in the 15% to 50% range of increase to ranged damage depending on stats.
What? Where do you come up with those types of numbers and, most importantly, why?
What part of "everyone have CA bonus" you don't understand? Where does it write, specifically, that Ranged classes shouldn't be allowed to have CA bonus at a range when we already know that it happened before, too? You're fighting a completely and utterly pointless battle here and without any reasonable argument, I'm afraid...
That will unbalance the meta since most of the mechanics in old content worked with everyone being close while needing to do enough damage to win.
"META" is still under development tbh. What "META" do you talk about? Something that doesn't exist anymore? Are you aware of how Neverwinter started, even? Have you been here since early days to see how things worked?
With the way the game played that made sure everyone was close by for all of the buffs. This would mean content that required this would be pointless since everyone would stand outside of the range of the mechanics for old content fights and just kill everything.
So, it is pointless to kill things from the range, but it is not pointless to kill things from close...because of? What? Your personal sense of how combat mechanics should work? I don't understand your stance at all, it all just seems that you are afraid that Ranged classes are going to get more spotlight. And, frankly, nothing will change. Ranged classes will only have a bit more options to evade and keep better dps on enemies. You still need someone to stand close to the enemies for it to work, so it's not like ranged classes immediately get 50% bonus dmg, lol.
This could change the entire meta from melee combat to ranged combat. Why have to do mechanics in fights when you can kill from a range without issues. Every class has the ability to do close melee combat. Out of the classes right now at least 3 of them can only do melee combat (barbarian, fighter, rogue). When the meta shifts to only using ranged classes will they give those with classes that aren't wanted in parties the ability to change to them?
MOD16 already changed the entire meta drastically. MOD3 already changed meta drastically. MOD6 changed meta drastically. MOD8 changed meta drastically. MOD12 changed meta drastically. You seem sad that ranged classes are getting some love from developers now. Not sure why, but okay.
CA has been working this way at least since mod 8 and on. If it worked that way from Mod 3 to mod 7 then I am not sure it is a good reason to go back to it.
CA has been working like this since I can remember and each and every class had CA bonus. Some classes had more CA feats and powers than others, but I highly doubt that you had a problem with that sort of "unbalanced", correct me if I'm wrong.
I agree this will help the ranger and warlock classes which the archer part is quite lackluster. The best classes after this change would be the warlock, wizard, cleric and ranger. The wizard is already over performing at this stage and needs no more help. I don't know what other classes would be brought in queues with that type of power up to the best dps class right now.
Why is "best classes" a thing for you to think about? Also, have you been fighting for ranged classes with this much passions during MOD8 and onward? I doubt it, really. And ranged classes needed more love from developers, but didn't get it at all for many mods. God knows how many times Wizard got crippled, and yet people like you are still having issues with others enjoying stuff. How many mods was GWF the top DPS? Do you think that should remain like that forever? How many mods were 2DC2OP meta prominent? Let's not focus on that at all, cause you'd lose arguments rather quickly if I start to talk about that.
In regards to CA positioning you have a healer and tank class that can move into any position and focus on their role of healing/tanking/giving CA. The way that geometry works and positioning works the area you need to be in for CA at range is MUCH larger than the area you need to be in right next to the monsters. This means that getting CA to ranged is easier than when you are closer to the target. You also don't have anywhere near as much to disrupt ranged combatants compared to melee.
We're done with (de)buff meta. We do not need classes that outperform others in healing/tanking because they have more (de)buffing options to choose from, leaving other classes in dirt.
And because you keep pushing this agenda we can't have nice things and we'll have resets on how the game works because someone isn't satisfied with the fact that ranged classes have CA bonus at a range, imagine that. How dare they have CA bonus when it should be melee exclusive.
Stop pursuing this "melee power" and start thinking about including at least one ranged class in a team that can keep dpsing from a distance whilst others can keep aggro and heal. Unless, of course, you're playing only to be top paingiver, in which case all I'm going to say i lol and have a nice day.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
so after thinking about the implications here its painfully obvious why my cleric does 1/2 the dps of other classes....she never has CA....my top priority is her never dying so i keep her at a good range whenever possible, usually the max range for her powers....and increasing the range of CA to 80' or 100' would actually go a long way towards class balance, I made some comments here without sitting down and thinking it out. I support this increase, it needs to be at least as far as the max range of our ranged powers.
Giving CA in terms of damage is like giving somewhere in the 15% to 50% range of increase to ranged damage depending on stats.
What? Where do you come up with those types of numbers and, most importantly, why?
What part of "everyone have CA bonus" you don't understand? Where does it write, specifically, that Ranged classes shouldn't be allowed to have CA bonus at a range when we already know that it happened before, too? You're fighting a completely and utterly pointless battle here and without any reasonable argument, I'm afraid...
That will unbalance the meta since most of the mechanics in old content worked with everyone being close while needing to do enough damage to win.
"META" is still under development tbh. What "META" do you talk about? Something that doesn't exist anymore? Are you aware of how Neverwinter started, even? Have you been here since early days to see how things worked?
With the way the game played that made sure everyone was close by for all of the buffs. This would mean content that required this would be pointless since everyone would stand outside of the range of the mechanics for old content fights and just kill everything.
So, it is pointless to kill things from the range, but it is not pointless to kill things from close...because of? What? Your personal sense of how combat mechanics should work? I don't understand your stance at all, it all just seems that you are afraid that Ranged classes are going to get more spotlight. And, frankly, nothing will change. Ranged classes will only have a bit more options to evade and keep better dps on enemies. You still need someone to stand close to the enemies for it to work, so it's not like ranged classes immediately get 50% bonus dmg, lol.
This could change the entire meta from melee combat to ranged combat. Why have to do mechanics in fights when you can kill from a range without issues. Every class has the ability to do close melee combat. Out of the classes right now at least 3 of them can only do melee combat (barbarian, fighter, rogue). When the meta shifts to only using ranged classes will they give those with classes that aren't wanted in parties the ability to change to them?
MOD16 already changed the entire meta drastically. MOD3 already changed meta drastically. MOD6 changed meta drastically. MOD8 changed meta drastically. MOD12 changed meta drastically. You seem sad that ranged classes are getting some love from developers now. Not sure why, but okay.
CA has been working this way at least since mod 8 and on. If it worked that way from Mod 3 to mod 7 then I am not sure it is a good reason to go back to it.
CA has been working like this since I can remember and each and every class had CA bonus. Some classes had more CA feats and powers than others, but I highly doubt that you had a problem with that sort of "unbalanced", correct me if I'm wrong.
I agree this will help the ranger and warlock classes which the archer part is quite lackluster. The best classes after this change would be the warlock, wizard, cleric and ranger. The wizard is already over performing at this stage and needs no more help. I don't know what other classes would be brought in queues with that type of power up to the best dps class right now.
Why is "best classes" a thing for you to think about? Also, have you been fighting for ranged classes with this much passions during MOD8 and onward? I doubt it, really. And ranged classes needed more love from developers, but didn't get it at all for many mods. God knows how many times Wizard got crippled, and yet people like you are still having issues with others enjoying stuff. How many mods was GWF the top DPS? Do you think that should remain like that forever? How many mods were 2DC2OP meta prominent? Let's not focus on that at all, cause you'd lose arguments rather quickly if I start to talk about that.
In regards to CA positioning you have a healer and tank class that can move into any position and focus on their role of healing/tanking/giving CA. The way that geometry works and positioning works the area you need to be in for CA at range is MUCH larger than the area you need to be in right next to the monsters. This means that getting CA to ranged is easier than when you are closer to the target. You also don't have anywhere near as much to disrupt ranged combatants compared to melee.
We're done with (de)buff meta. We do not need classes that outperform others in healing/tanking because they have more (de)buffing options to choose from, leaving other classes in dirt.
And because you keep pushing this agenda we can't have nice things and we'll have resets on how the game works because someone isn't satisfied with the fact that ranged classes have CA bonus at a range, imagine that. How dare they have CA bonus when it should be melee exclusive.
Stop pursuing this "melee power" and start thinking about including at least one ranged class in a team that can keep dpsing from a distance whilst others can keep aggro and heal. Unless, of course, you're playing only to be top paingiver, in which case all I'm going to say i lol and have a nice day.
That made my day, haven't laughed that much in a while
Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
I see a lot of comments about the CA positioning and it seems that people miss certain aspects of movement. People mentioned the Bore Worm in LoMM, so let's examine that.
In our scenario, the tank has engaged the worm and it's focused on him. The melee classes have moved into CA position and are actively attacking the worm with a melee range of 5'. The Ranged classes have also moved into a CA position but are 70' away from the worm.
We apply some basic geometry here and need to calculate the distance along the circumference of a circle to understand how much distance the player must travel at a given radius from the target. If the worm rotates 90 degrees then the melee class needs to move approx 7' to gain positional combat advantage whilst the ranged class must travel 110' to gain positional combat advantage. As a result the amount of time the melee class is not only attacking but from a combat advantage position is greater than the time the ranged class is attacking from a combat advantage position. Here's a quick online calculation site if you want to have a look for yourself: https://www.omnicalculator.com/math/circumference
You also have to remember that not all combat will allow for a ranged class to be effective, most mobs will close the distance to the highest aggro and will reduce the effectiveness of the ranged class if they pull the aggro.
The effective fighting area within Trorbriand's arena at the end of LoMM doesn't lend itself to a ranged attack class especially when the scorpions join the fight. Arcturia teleports around a lot making ranged combat ineffective, Mimics would need to be targeted from a range through those phases which could help the team (All we're after is a smooth run and getting the loot at the end of the dungeon - right ?). Imagine the disadvantage the healer would be at if the ranged class was to be cocooned, would the healer be able to get there in time ?
A soulweaver warlock has a range on some of their healing, they can't use Shatterspark from too far away or you won't get healed so that means that the ranged class either doesn't get healing or the healer needs to be in a perfect sweet spot to heal everyone. Cleric's have an AoE heal that won't get the ranged class too, sure they shouldn't be taking as much damage though.
The argument that ranged classes shouldn't get CA from range and be out of danger from the enemy doesn't really track with some basic principles of combat. If you're walking along the street and got in a fight with some guy, and you're punching each other, some guy 50' away with a rifle is gonna deal some major damage if he shoots you, do you want to go tell him that as he's too far away for you to punch him that he shouldn't get so much damage and nerf him to use blanks instead of real ammo?
If the devs were to ensure that CA was given to players that were engaged in combat and that CA was only applied from players/companions/feats actively engaged in combat with that enemy that should help to alleviate the concern that @noworries#8859 indicated about a player running around that you couldn't even see but giving combat advantage.
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arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
In the above scenario, it would have to be the tank that moves first for any changes to have to be made. If the tank has aggro, he can just stand there. Even if he were to move, due to the resulting cone behind the boss/in front of the tank in which you would be considering flanking, the ranged character has the bigger arc (110') in which CA is applied vs the melee's 7'. Granted the melee can just move that small distance, but the ranged doesn't really have to much either due to how big the CA zone is. Stationary fights, like the Boreworm (when it is there to be hit) are easily for ranged, the mobile ones, like Drufi however would be harder. A good tank however will know how to position themselves so the dps can get that CA
c1k4ml3kc3 took and quoted a lot of responses out of context above. Not sure how to respond to a lot of them since none of responses include what I am responding towards and your responses mostly talk on a tangent of what I say. Lets give it a shot.
What I am trying to get towards is not me saying we shouldn't have a strong ranged group in game. If they wanted to make the meta ranged all they had to do was increase the amount that ranged powers do and balance them. Some of the responses about range are due to the fact that currently we have in the past had a buff-debuff meta that the abilities of the buffs were local to melee range. CA is the only buff that is still local to melee range from that meta. All of the old content is balanced around making everyone melee to do damage so mechanics ignore a lot of ranged classes. This is the case since in the past they removed so much damage from the ranged classes that you failed the dps checks to make it through the content if you were ranged. The change of CA would be a straight buff to ranged class damage since melee classes and abilities have to be in CA range to be used. All of the discussions have been about the mechanics of CA and damage formulas and why or why not damage would increase or change the meta. Some of you just can't get to the place in these theoretical discussions since your prejudices won't let you just run with the scenario. My main problem has always been there there are 7 dps classes and 7 of them can play in melee range. Of those 7 classes only 4 of them can play in ranged combat. The only reason that we have the melee classes being viable is that they have done more damage than ranged classes because the mechanics in the game (buffs) pushed them into it. This may have been on purpose due to having 3 classes that aren't viable in anything but melee combat and it would repeat the issues of creating content for ranged/melee like FBI when it came out with anti melee mechanics. Unless the idea is to remove those melee classes from the game or give them bows (make them have ranged abilities) they need to change a lot of mechanics in the game to keep melee classes playable. CA is the last of the buff/debuff meta that added damage for just being melee. Just adding CA to ranged classes may not make a huge difference but it may because it has been a huge inclusion in past builds in the game. Nobody knows fully if it will but if it does I don't want the change because I want class balance where every class is viable end game. Just increasing the range of CA without doing a pass on balancing the classes will just make the current imbalance worse.
FYI, I have all classes end game minus one and whatever the meta changes towards won't affect me in the slightest. It will affect a lot of my friends and players who are on classes that don't do as well as others if we went to an all ranged meta. Lets look at the barbarian class in this mod. They are under performing in terms of damage compared to other classes. They are pulled into LoMM since they made LoMM on the easy side so there really isn't any content that any dps classes can't do. With ToMM, the dps checks will likely keep that class out of it unless they can get in as a tank. If we went to an all ranged meta the rogue/barb/fighter classes that lack ranged abilities wouldn't be asked into parties because it is essentially like reducing the number of players in the group. My perfect scenario of damage is all classes are balanced within a 3% variance of damage. Right now the variance I am seeing at top levels is about a ~30% difference between the best dps class wizard and the worst classes (take your pick - SW/TR/Barb/Fighter) after taking into consideration player abilities.
At the end of the day there just needs to be something that keeps the melee classes viable or the position that the ranged classes feel now will swap to the melee classes. Except, the melee classes can't do anything ranged to compensate like the ranged classes can do for melee which just might be why ranged damage has always been lower than melee.
Giving CA in terms of damage is like giving somewhere in the 15% to 50% range of increase to ranged damage depending on stats.
What? Where do you come up with those types of numbers and, most importantly, why?
What part of "everyone have CA bonus" you don't understand? Where does it write, specifically, that Ranged classes shouldn't be allowed to have CA bonus at a range when we already know that it happened before, too? You're fighting a completely and utterly pointless battle here and without any reasonable argument, I'm afraid...
In the Old CA and possibly the new model CA gave your character 15% damage just for making a character (before going through the rest of the damage formula) and then everything that improved CA afterwards added to the CA percentage. Some old builds were all about increasing this damage as close to 100% as possible. Then the rest of the formula for damage is calculated based on your other stats. CA damage is also removed from the equation when you don't have CA on the mobs your hitting. This was to show how large of a potential increase that giving CA to ranged classes which don't have it now could become. Class balance is the argument.
Rhetorical questions: Do classes that can't do their jobs in end game get invited into the content by other players? No Do classes that can't do their jobs well in end game get invited into the content by other players? Rarely
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
That will unbalance the meta since most of the mechanics in old content worked with everyone being close while needing to do enough damage to win.
"META" is still under development tbh. What "META" do you talk about? Something that doesn't exist anymore? Are you aware of how Neverwinter started, even? Have you been here since early days to see how things worked?
META will always change. I don't mind an all ranged meta if all classes can participate in that meta. Right now 3 of the 7 classes won't be able to participate if the meta moves to all ranged. The only classes not getting the CA buff right now are ranged classes. Giving them CA at range would be a pure damage buff to ranged classes and it is a large one. Adding damage to that group without further adjustments would unbalance the classes as well as potentially make melee classes into where they aren't invited to parties. The entire change is about adding a huge buff to ranged classes. Hence the reason that they COULD become where there is a meta where ranged is the best. I want balance in any meta that happens and I want it for all classes. I want to stop this class of the mod thing that has been going on. Mod 16 seems to be be the mod of the CW, Mod15 was HR, Mod 14 was TR, Mod 12/13 was barb... This is what I saw being a high level support for the majority of these mods. FYI, I have been around so long that my original toon I couldn't get the name I wanted on it so I had to put a 1 behind it.
With the way the game played that made sure everyone was close by for all of the buffs. This would mean content that required this would be pointless since everyone would stand outside of the range of the mechanics for old content fights and just kill everything.
So, it is pointless to kill things from the range, but it is not pointless to kill things from close...because of? What? Your personal sense of how combat mechanics should work? I don't understand your stance at all, it all just seems that you are afraid that Ranged classes are going to get more spotlight. And, frankly, nothing will change. Ranged classes will only have a bit more options to evade and keep better dps on enemies. You still need someone to stand close to the enemies for it to work, so it's not like ranged classes immediately get 50% bonus dmg, lol.
The comment is based on old mods combat system and why in the old system players were pushed to be melee due to the system. If the damage increase to ranged classes increased enough (hypothetical teritory here) then a META of all ranged dps could happen. If the meta was everyone was ranged and old content didn't have any of their mechanics updated we would see mechanics skipped since they were built in a period of time that expected buffs to make the party stick close together. Without any more buffs to keep players close by you can play anywhere and only mechanics that did damage would cause a group to stay together. Potions, healers that have range would allow several mechanics to be skipped in old content. Unless you think just like the current devs that players won't want to play old content (remembers back to start of mod 16).
This could change the entire meta from melee combat to ranged combat. Why have to do mechanics in fights when you can kill from a range without issues. Every class has the ability to do close melee combat. Out of the classes right now at least 3 of them can only do melee combat (barbarian, fighter, rogue). When the meta shifts to only using ranged classes will they give those with classes that aren't wanted in parties the ability to change to them?
MOD16 already changed the entire meta drastically. MOD3 already changed meta drastically. MOD6 changed meta drastically. MOD8 changed meta drastically. MOD12 changed meta drastically. You seem sad that ranged classes are getting some love from developers now. Not sure why, but okay.
I'm not worried about changing the meta. I'm worried that a change this big which is similar to the changes we had in mod 16 to combat will cause more balance issues when we aren't balanced right now.
CA has been working this way at least since mod 8 and on. If it worked that way from Mod 3 to mod 7 then I am not sure it is a good reason to go back to it.
CA has been working like this since I can remember and each and every class had CA bonus. Some classes had more CA feats and powers than others, but I highly doubt that you had a problem with that sort of "unbalanced", correct me if I'm wrong.
You don't have CA at range. Is this our disconnect on why we are so far apart in this discussion? I play 7 of the 8 classes at end game. I am not affected as much as others when it comes to balance outside of the fact I like to play all of the classes at end game.
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
I agree this will help the ranger and warlock classes which the archer part is quite lackluster. The best classes after this change would be the warlock, wizard, cleric and ranger. The wizard is already over performing at this stage and needs no more help. I don't know what other classes would be brought in queues with that type of power up to the best dps class right now.
Why is "best classes" a thing for you to think about? Also, have you been fighting for ranged classes with this much passions during MOD8 and onward? I doubt it, really. And ranged classes needed more love from developers, but didn't get it at all for many mods. God knows how many times Wizard got crippled, and yet people like you are still having issues with others enjoying stuff. How many mods was GWF the top DPS? Do you think that should remain like that forever? How many mods were 2DC2OP meta prominent? Let's not focus on that at all, cause you'd lose arguments rather quickly if I start to talk about that.
Every class can be melee, not all can be ranged. The passion is to make all classes balanced for end game content. Not because of any play style like your trying to make it out to be or because I dislike a class. My entire point is end game balance of classes.
In regards to CA positioning you have a healer and tank class that can move into any position and focus on their role of healing/tanking/giving CA. The way that geometry works and positioning works the area you need to be in for CA at range is MUCH larger than the area you need to be in right next to the monsters. This means that getting CA to ranged is easier than when you are closer to the target. You also don't have anywhere near as much to disrupt ranged combatants compared to melee.
We're done with (de)buff meta. We do not need classes that outperform others in healing/tanking because they have more (de)buffing options to choose from, leaving other classes in dirt.
And because you keep pushing this agenda we can't have nice things and we'll have resets on how the game works because someone isn't satisfied with the fact that ranged classes have CA bonus at a range, imagine that. How dare they have CA bonus when it should be melee exclusive.
Stop pursuing this "melee power" and start thinking about including at least one ranged class in a team that can keep dpsing from a distance whilst others can keep aggro and heal. Unless, of course, you're playing only to be top paingiver, in which case all I'm going to say i lol and have a nice day.
We are done with the buff meta but, we have to look at the way the game was made to see where things are at. This quote is when I am giving a hypothetical of what COULD happen if we move to a ranged meta. I also know that the classes won't be balanced but further out of balance if we just give a huge damage buff to 4 classes. One class which is over performing compared to the rest of the classes is in this group that over performs. I want end game class balance so stop saying I hate ranged classes. I like to be able to play all classes in end game since that is what I do in game. I like being able to say in queue I will fill role as to allow for anyone to join the group. When balancing of classes is bad this means fewer classes I can play end game while doing this.
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
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therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
It is harder to stand close behind the boss then it is to stand far behind the boss, simply because there is a smaller area to fit into. Also, it is better gameplay to stand close, as it makes the healers job easier.
It is harder to stand close behind the boss then it is to stand far behind the boss, simply because there is a smaller area to fit into. Also, it is better gameplay to stand close, as it makes the healers job easier.
I don't get both arguments. A good melee dps is "better" than a range dps because he has less space to move if he wants to stay in the CA area? I though a good dps is distinct from a bad dps because he delivers more damage per second.
And a ranged dps usually is far away from the boss, so he gets less hit. Hence, he needs less healing. So I fail to see the logic in that argument of yours.
Btw (and unrelated to CA for ranged dps), a good group does not only take positions in front (tank) and behind (healer, dps) the boss. A good group surrounds the boss, so the CA area widens up to a full circle around the boss.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
It is harder to stand close behind the boss then it is to stand far behind the boss, simply because there is a smaller area to fit into. Also, it is better gameplay to stand close, as it makes the healers job easier.
I don't get both arguments. A good melee dps is "better" than a range dps because he has less space to move if he wants to stay in the CA area? I though a good dps is distinct from a bad dps because he delivers more damage per second.
And a ranged dps usually is far away from the boss, so he gets less hit. Hence, he needs less healing. So I fail to see the logic in that argument of yours.
Btw (and unrelated to CA for ranged dps), a good group does not only take positions in front (tank) and behind (healer, dps) the boss. A good group surrounds the boss, so the CA area widens up to a full circle around the boss.
It takes more skill to position in a smaller area than a larger area. As you increase the area behind the boss, it becomes easier and easier to fit into that space, thus making it easier and easier to get CA. With a range of 85', its very easy to accidentally get CA by simply standing in that circle segment. Currently positioning for CA is a deliberate choice, not something you would do accidentally.
The hit less thing is a non argument, since 1) in the newest content it isn't true (his attacks that will hit you are unavoidable and occur across the entire map) and 2) Healers rely on AoE heals, if you are outside of the area you are just wasting their divinity.This isn't a game where healers have strong single target heals.
Comments
I'm gonna stop the discussion since we have come around full circle and going over the same things as previously discussed.
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
1) Weapon Damage is the same for all classes now. Yes I said it, go check if you don't believe me.
2) The wide disparity in terms of DPS in some classes especially the HR and Wizard. Yes they should get the combat advantage bonus, however the difference in DPS will just be that wider.
So you can talk around it all you want about positioning, pros and cons about fighting up close vs at range etc it all comes down to the point that there is no class balance. Certain classes will be in demand over others which is the sad reality of the situation.
In previous mods, the only reasons why any ranged class would stay at melee range was mainly due to Annointed army buff, nothing else cos healing wasn't that important, even now its debatable whether u need as much heals or not, most of the time i end up using stones instead of waiting for the healer. Eitherway healers can equally heal you from distance so u dont really need to be right on their face for them to heal you.
The range increased to 85 will open a new road for ranger, and for warlocks, clerics arbiter and wizards.
What part of "everyone have CA bonus" you don't understand? Where does it write, specifically, that Ranged classes shouldn't be allowed to have CA bonus at a range when we already know that it happened before, too? You're fighting a completely and utterly pointless battle here and without any reasonable argument, I'm afraid... "META" is still under development tbh. What "META" do you talk about? Something that doesn't exist anymore? Are you aware of how Neverwinter started, even? Have you been here since early days to see how things worked? So, it is pointless to kill things from the range, but it is not pointless to kill things from close...because of? What? Your personal sense of how combat mechanics should work? I don't understand your stance at all, it all just seems that you are afraid that Ranged classes are going to get more spotlight. And, frankly, nothing will change. Ranged classes will only have a bit more options to evade and keep better dps on enemies. You still need someone to stand close to the enemies for it to work, so it's not like ranged classes immediately get 50% bonus dmg, lol. MOD16 already changed the entire meta drastically. MOD3 already changed meta drastically. MOD6 changed meta drastically. MOD8 changed meta drastically. MOD12 changed meta drastically. You seem sad that ranged classes are getting some love from developers now. Not sure why, but okay. CA has been working like this since I can remember and each and every class had CA bonus. Some classes had more CA feats and powers than others, but I highly doubt that you had a problem with that sort of "unbalanced", correct me if I'm wrong. Why is "best classes" a thing for you to think about? Also, have you been fighting for ranged classes with this much passions during MOD8 and onward? I doubt it, really. And ranged classes needed more love from developers, but didn't get it at all for many mods. God knows how many times Wizard got crippled, and yet people like you are still having issues with others enjoying stuff. How many mods was GWF the top DPS? Do you think that should remain like that forever? How many mods were 2DC2OP meta prominent? Let's not focus on that at all, cause you'd lose arguments rather quickly if I start to talk about that. We're done with (de)buff meta. We do not need classes that outperform others in healing/tanking because they have more (de)buffing options to choose from, leaving other classes in dirt.
And because you keep pushing this agenda we can't have nice things and we'll have resets on how the game works because someone isn't satisfied with the fact that ranged classes have CA bonus at a range, imagine that. How dare they have CA bonus when it should be melee exclusive.
Stop pursuing this "melee power" and start thinking about including at least one ranged class in a team that can keep dpsing from a distance whilst others can keep aggro and heal. Unless, of course, you're playing only to be top paingiver, in which case all I'm going to say i lol and have a nice day.
In our scenario, the tank has engaged the worm and it's focused on him. The melee classes have moved into CA position and are actively attacking the worm with a melee range of 5'. The Ranged classes have also moved into a CA position but are 70' away from the worm.
We apply some basic geometry here and need to calculate the distance along the circumference of a circle to understand how much distance the player must travel at a given radius from the target. If the worm rotates 90 degrees then the melee class needs to move approx 7' to gain positional combat advantage whilst the ranged class must travel 110' to gain positional combat advantage.
As a result the amount of time the melee class is not only attacking but from a combat advantage position is greater than the time the ranged class is attacking from a combat advantage position.
Here's a quick online calculation site if you want to have a look for yourself:
https://www.omnicalculator.com/math/circumference
You also have to remember that not all combat will allow for a ranged class to be effective, most mobs will close the distance to the highest aggro and will reduce the effectiveness of the ranged class if they pull the aggro.
The effective fighting area within Trorbriand's arena at the end of LoMM doesn't lend itself to a ranged attack class especially when the scorpions join the fight. Arcturia teleports around a lot making ranged combat ineffective, Mimics would need to be targeted from a range through those phases which could help the team (All we're after is a smooth run and getting the loot at the end of the dungeon - right ?). Imagine the disadvantage the healer would be at if the ranged class was to be cocooned, would the healer be able to get there in time ?
A soulweaver warlock has a range on some of their healing, they can't use Shatterspark from too far away or you won't get healed so that means that the ranged class either doesn't get healing or the healer needs to be in a perfect sweet spot to heal everyone. Cleric's have an AoE heal that won't get the ranged class too, sure they shouldn't be taking as much damage though.
The argument that ranged classes shouldn't get CA from range and be out of danger from the enemy doesn't really track with some basic principles of combat. If you're walking along the street and got in a fight with some guy, and you're punching each other, some guy 50' away with a rifle is gonna deal some major damage if he shoots you, do you want to go tell him that as he's too far away for you to punch him that he shouldn't get so much damage and nerf him to use blanks instead of real ammo?
If the devs were to ensure that CA was given to players that were engaged in combat and that CA was only applied from players/companions/feats actively engaged in combat with that enemy that should help to alleviate the concern that @noworries#8859 indicated about a player running around that you couldn't even see but giving combat advantage.
What I am trying to get towards is not me saying we shouldn't have a strong ranged group in game. If they wanted to make the meta ranged all they had to do was increase the amount that ranged powers do and balance them. Some of the responses about range are due to the fact that currently we have in the past had a buff-debuff meta that the abilities of the buffs were local to melee range. CA is the only buff that is still local to melee range from that meta. All of the old content is balanced around making everyone melee to do damage so mechanics ignore a lot of ranged classes. This is the case since in the past they removed so much damage from the ranged classes that you failed the dps checks to make it through the content if you were ranged. The change of CA would be a straight buff to ranged class damage since melee classes and abilities have to be in CA range to be used. All of the discussions have been about the mechanics of CA and damage formulas and why or why not damage would increase or change the meta. Some of you just can't get to the place in these theoretical discussions since your prejudices won't let you just run with the scenario. My main problem has always been there there are 7 dps classes and 7 of them can play in melee range. Of those 7 classes only 4 of them can play in ranged combat. The only reason that we have the melee classes being viable is that they have done more damage than ranged classes because the mechanics in the game (buffs) pushed them into it. This may have been on purpose due to having 3 classes that aren't viable in anything but melee combat and it would repeat the issues of creating content for ranged/melee like FBI when it came out with anti melee mechanics. Unless the idea is to remove those melee classes from the game or give them bows (make them have ranged abilities) they need to change a lot of mechanics in the game to keep melee classes playable. CA is the last of the buff/debuff meta that added damage for just being melee. Just adding CA to ranged classes may not make a huge difference but it may because it has been a huge inclusion in past builds in the game. Nobody knows fully if it will but if it does I don't want the change because I want class balance where every class is viable end game. Just increasing the range of CA without doing a pass on balancing the classes will just make the current imbalance worse.
FYI, I have all classes end game minus one and whatever the meta changes towards won't affect me in the slightest. It will affect a lot of my friends and players who are on classes that don't do as well as others if we went to an all ranged meta. Lets look at the barbarian class in this mod. They are under performing in terms of damage compared to other classes. They are pulled into LoMM since they made LoMM on the easy side so there really isn't any content that any dps classes can't do. With ToMM, the dps checks will likely keep that class out of it unless they can get in as a tank. If we went to an all ranged meta the rogue/barb/fighter classes that lack ranged abilities wouldn't be asked into parties because it is essentially like reducing the number of players in the group. My perfect scenario of damage is all classes are balanced within a 3% variance of damage. Right now the variance I am seeing at top levels is about a ~30% difference between the best dps class wizard and the worst classes (take your pick - SW/TR/Barb/Fighter) after taking into consideration player abilities.
At the end of the day there just needs to be something that keeps the melee classes viable or the position that the ranged classes feel now will swap to the melee classes. Except, the melee classes can't do anything ranged to compensate like the ranged classes can do for melee which just might be why ranged damage has always been lower than melee. In the Old CA and possibly the new model CA gave your character 15% damage just for making a character (before going through the rest of the damage formula) and then everything that improved CA afterwards added to the CA percentage. Some old builds were all about increasing this damage as close to 100% as possible. Then the rest of the formula for damage is calculated based on your other stats. CA damage is also removed from the equation when you don't have CA on the mobs your hitting. This was to show how large of a potential increase that giving CA to ranged classes which don't have it now could become. Class balance is the argument.
Rhetorical questions:
Do classes that can't do their jobs in end game get invited into the content by other players? No
Do classes that can't do their jobs well in end game get invited into the content by other players? Rarely
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
> I think CA should have remained at its previous range, it helps differentiate between good dps and bad dps.
How?
And a ranged dps usually is far away from the boss, so he gets less hit. Hence, he needs less healing. So I fail to see the logic in that argument of yours.
Btw (and unrelated to CA for ranged dps), a good group does not only take positions in front (tank) and behind (healer, dps) the boss. A good group surrounds the boss, so the CA area widens up to a full circle around the boss.
The hit less thing is a non argument, since 1) in the newest content it isn't true (his attacks that will hit you are unavoidable and occur across the entire map) and 2) Healers rely on AoE heals, if you are outside of the area you are just wasting their divinity.This isn't a game where healers have strong single target heals.
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k