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Tiamat 10 Person is Still Unplayable

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  • fyrstigorfyrstigor Member Posts: 299 Arc User

    arazith07 said:

    arazith07 said:

    fyrstigor said:

    @cherryman1

    Personally i havent leveled a toon in years, so i cant speak...

    I just did this to see what a new player experiences for mod 16. I wrote about it in another part of the forum. I did this in this current mod and that is what I am speaking from. If you haven't done it then either you can take my word for it or try it out. Best way to test it is run a RIQ without any mounts and none with insignias, no mount powers, no better than rank 8 bondings, 1 white companion for the 2 gold, rank 8 enchants, the companion gear with rank 8 runes, 950 level items on your toon on a character without boons. No weapon or armor enchantments and only mount is one of the free white mounts from the mount store. See how enjoyable the RIQ experience is at that point and see if your a contributing member of the party. FYI, your stats are high in scaled content on that toon probably due to having companions/mounts. Use the 3 given artifacts and none with combat abilities. FYI, gear and enchants are more heavily scaled than mounts/companions in scaled content. Now try Many Coins/Tiamat/MPF/LOL with a group that is similarly geared / inexperienced and see how the experience is for you. Oh, and no stronghold boons. That is the new player experience that I got to see. The only wins were if you have 1 or 2 higher level players added into the party.

    RLQ and MEs can be done. RLQ is hard at this point still and there are still enough people doing MEs that will carry you through them. RIQ was only able to be done if you got someone who can carry you. Granted, over time you would earn more rAD but doing the method above only gives you 25k a day.

    Your stats were about 15k to 20k high on each stat across the board so that means you had something extra that a new player wouldn't be given.
    New and intermediate are not the same thing, I would expect intermediate to be content for those who have played for a month, which will give the player a good amount of ME gear, some purple companions(namely the energon and a cheap augment), maybe a purple mount, some blue mounts, some boons, and a guild for those who are not anti-social.
    It takes less than 24 hours of in game time to get to level 80 and capable of RIQ. When does that new player hit that intermediate area? Is it when they can queue for the content or is it after months of working on their toon?
    For the minimum requirements, sure. But I'm sure that the intent of RIQ is for mid game content, and it's even in the name, Intermediate. Just because you can queue for something, doesn't mean you should. I will agree that this can be better handled by Cryptic in requiring more to unlock it. A new player should not be able to just jump into mid game right off the bat, all that does is setup player expectations that the rest of the game should be easy and is why you get so many complaining about later dungeons being too hard, as there is that big jump in skill. M16 served to bridge that gap somewhat.
    Most of what I am trying to say in this thread is to show those players who are saying that all the new players are bad may not be completely correct all of the time. Some of the players who are joining the event are decent players, but since they can have such badly scaled stats they can't do the content without better geared players. Best analogy would be like trying to do LoMM while taking off all your gear and having the person who has gear on calling the player without his a bad player because he now can't kill the mimics. Then having that same person say they just need to spend more AD when the reason they are doing RIQ is for extra rAD for the day. It's like the chicken and the egg.
    Its not really the chicken and the egg here though. Everyone have choices. Everyone can earn RADs. And if the only place u are able to do is Master of Hunt, RLQ, ESOT or some easy things like that. That sucks for u. But then thats where u start, u run those things, u earn the RADs u can. U grow. U become stronger and u start doing harder and harder content.

    New players shouldnt expect to jump from leveling right into mid game content or endgame content, just because they have itemlvl for it.
  • cherryman1cherryman1 Member Posts: 341 Arc User
    fyrstigor said:

    arazith07 said:

    arazith07 said:

    fyrstigor said:

    @cherryman1

    Personally i havent leveled a toon in years, so i cant speak...

    I just did this to see what a new player experiences for mod 16. I wrote about it in another part of the forum. I did this in this current mod and that is what I am speaking from. If you haven't done it then either you can take my word for it or try it out. Best way to test it is run a RIQ without any mounts and none with insignias, no mount powers, no better than rank 8 bondings, 1 white companion for the 2 gold, rank 8 enchants, the companion gear with rank 8 runes, 950 level items on your toon on a character without boons. No weapon or armor enchantments and only mount is one of the free white mounts from the mount store. See how enjoyable the RIQ experience is at that point and see if your a contributing member of the party. FYI, your stats are high in scaled content on that toon probably due to having companions/mounts. Use the 3 given artifacts and none with combat abilities. FYI, gear and enchants are more heavily scaled than mounts/companions in scaled content. Now try Many Coins/Tiamat/MPF/LOL with a group that is similarly geared / inexperienced and see how the experience is for you. Oh, and no stronghold boons. That is the new player experience that I got to see. The only wins were if you have 1 or 2 higher level players added into the party.

    RLQ and MEs can be done. RLQ is hard at this point still and there are still enough people doing MEs that will carry you through them. RIQ was only able to be done if you got someone who can carry you. Granted, over time you would earn more rAD but doing the method above only gives you 25k a day.

    Your stats were about 15k to 20k high on each stat across the board so that means you had something extra that a new player wouldn't be given.
    New and intermediate are not the same thing, I would expect intermediate to be content for those who have played for a month, which will give the player a good amount of ME gear, some purple companions(namely the energon and a cheap augment), maybe a purple mount, some blue mounts, some boons, and a guild for those who are not anti-social.
    It takes less than 24 hours of in game time to get to level 80 and capable of RIQ. When does that new player hit that intermediate area? Is it when they can queue for the content or is it after months of working on their toon?
    For the minimum requirements, sure. But I'm sure that the intent of RIQ is for mid game content, and it's even in the name, Intermediate. Just because you can queue for something, doesn't mean you should. I will agree that this can be better handled by Cryptic in requiring more to unlock it. A new player should not be able to just jump into mid game right off the bat, all that does is setup player expectations that the rest of the game should be easy and is why you get so many complaining about later dungeons being too hard, as there is that big jump in skill. M16 served to bridge that gap somewhat.
    Most of what I am trying to say in this thread is to show those players who are saying that all the new players are bad may not be completely correct all of the time. Some of the players who are joining the event are decent players, but since they can have such badly scaled stats they can't do the content without better geared players. Best analogy would be like trying to do LoMM while taking off all your gear and having the person who has gear on calling the player without his a bad player because he now can't kill the mimics. Then having that same person say they just need to spend more AD when the reason they are doing RIQ is for extra rAD for the day. It's like the chicken and the egg.
    Its not really the chicken and the egg here though. Everyone have choices. Everyone can earn RADs. And if the only place u are able to do is Master of Hunt, RLQ, ESOT or some easy things like that. That sucks for u. But then thats where u start, u run those things, u earn the RADs u can. U grow. U become stronger and u start doing harder and harder content.

    New players shouldnt expect to jump from leveling right into mid game content or endgame content, just because they have itemlvl for it.
    We will have to agree to disagree. If you have the item level to do something I believe that should mean you can at least complete it if you play well.

    Also, read my sig since your hung up thinking that I can't do the stuff.
    Guild Leader: Under the Influence
    Yule (Barb): 55k : Siren (TR): 60k : Torun (DC): 54k : Siren OP (OP): 59k : Siren SW (SW): 54k : Modern (F): 62k : Cherry1 (CW) : 48k Siren HR (HR): 54k
  • kangkeokkangkeok Member Posts: 1,121 Arc User
    Frankly people shouldn't even be talking about things they don't even know or experienced and later on trying to get excuses to cover up their blunder. Just makes them look how ignorant.
  • kangkeokkangkeok Member Posts: 1,121 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    arazith07 said:

    fyrstigor said:

    @cherryman1

    Personally i havent leveled a toon in years, so i cant speak...

    I just did this to see what a new player experiences for mod 16. I wrote about it in another part of the forum. I did this in this current mod and that is what I am speaking from. If you haven't done it then either you can take my word for it or try it out. Best way to test it is run a RIQ without any mounts and none with insignias, no mount powers, no better than rank 8 bondings, 1 white companion for the 2 gold, rank 8 enchants, the companion gear with rank 8 runes, 950 level items on your toon on a character without boons. No weapon or armor enchantments and only mount is one of the free white mounts from the mount store. See how enjoyable the RIQ experience is at that point and see if your a contributing member of the party. FYI, your stats are high in scaled content on that toon probably due to having companions/mounts. Use the 3 given artifacts and none with combat abilities. FYI, gear and enchants are more heavily scaled than mounts/companions in scaled content. Now try Many Coins/Tiamat/MPF/LOL with a group that is similarly geared / inexperienced and see how the experience is for you. Oh, and no stronghold boons. That is the new player experience that I got to see. The only wins were if you have 1 or 2 higher level players added into the party.

    RLQ and MEs can be done. RLQ is hard at this point still and there are still enough people doing MEs that will carry you through them. RIQ was only able to be done if you got someone who can carry you. Granted, over time you would earn more rAD but doing the method above only gives you 25k a day.

    Your stats were about 15k to 20k high on each stat across the board so that means you had something extra that a new player wouldn't be given.
    New and intermediate are not the same thing, I would expect intermediate to be content for those who have played for a month, which will give the player a good amount of ME gear, some purple companions(namely the energon and a cheap augment), maybe a purple mount, some blue mounts, some boons, and a guild for those who are not anti-social.
    It takes less than 24 hours of in game time to get to level 80 and capable of RIQ. When does that new player hit that intermediate area? Is it when they can queue for the content or is it after months of working on their toon?
    For the minimum requirements, sure. But I'm sure that the intent of RIQ is for mid game content, and it's even in the name, Intermediate. Just because you can queue for something, doesn't mean you should. I will agree that this can be better handled by Cryptic in requiring more to unlock it. A new player should not be able to just jump into mid game right off the bat, all that does is setup player expectations that the rest of the game should be easy and is why you get so many complaining about later dungeons being too hard, as there is that big jump in skill. M16 served to bridge that gap somewhat.
    So u expect player to restrain themselves to earn AD? Its kinda naïve to think that way. Cryptic lower them because they are aware of new player experience. Do you know how many time a new player need to grind everyday to gain the access to RIQ in mod 15? Do u know how slow new player progress is without RIQ? This is why people need to level a fresh toon before saying things like this.

    Even if they are not ready, at least they get the chance to be carried by higher ilvl player in mod 16. Asking them to grind master of the hunt again is plain stupid.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,343 Arc User
    I have a PS4 account that I use for making characters to try out new character stuff and I am not tempted to use all the stuff I do have available on my PC account, so I do know how it is.

    Again, you DO NOT need to do Random queues to earn rAD beyond the 3x MEs and RLQ as a new player. I never said they should grind out MotH or DL. Queue for a dungeon, like VT, CN, ndemo, or any of the other easy multiple chest dungeons. These are perfectly viable ways to earn rAD if you cannot complete most of the dungeons in RIQ. Anyways we are far off the topic of this forum thread.
  • kangkeokkangkeok Member Posts: 1,121 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    arazith07 said:

    I have a PS4 account that I use for making characters to try out new character stuff and I am not tempted to use all the stuff I do have available on my PC account, so I do know how it is.

    Again, you DO NOT need to do Random queues to earn rAD beyond the 3x MEs and RLQ as a new player. I never said they should grind out MotH or DL. Queue for a dungeon, like VT, CN, ndemo, or any of the other easy multiple chest dungeons. These are perfectly viable ways to earn rAD if you cannot complete most of the dungeons in RIQ. Anyways we are far off the topic of this forum thread.

    U do realize those dungeon that u mention are part of RIQ. So what's the reason they can't they que for RIQ again? Its just easy for u to say like that when obviously u don't know what its like.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,343 Arc User
    kangkeok said:

    arazith07 said:

    I have a PS4 account that I use for making characters to try out new character stuff and I am not tempted to use all the stuff I do have available on my PC account, so I do know how it is.

    Again, you DO NOT need to do Random queues to earn rAD beyond the 3x MEs and RLQ as a new player. I never said they should grind out MotH or DL. Queue for a dungeon, like VT, CN, ndemo, or any of the other easy multiple chest dungeons. These are perfectly viable ways to earn rAD if you cannot complete most of the dungeons in RIQ. Anyways we are far off the topic of this forum thread.

    U do realize those dungeon that u mention are part of RIQ. So what's the reason they can't they que for RIQ again? Its just easy for someone to say like that when they don't even know what its like.
    Considering this thread is about Tiamat and the topic of other similar harder dungeons in the RIQ came up, maybe so they don't run across those dungeons that they can't do. I am constantly helping and giving advice to those in my guild who started with M16, or returned, and all of them aren't having troubles with RIQ after a month of playing, which is on target with what I said earlier. And I have gone on to PS4 to refine my advice and make sure that I wasn't spouting anything that would be counter-productive. Don't discount other people's experience and what they say because they don't match up with your line of thinking or experiences. There are alternatives, randoms aren't the only way to earn money.
  • kangkeokkangkeok Member Posts: 1,121 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    arazith07 said:

    kangkeok said:

    arazith07 said:

    I have a PS4 account that I use for making characters to try out new character stuff and I am not tempted to use all the stuff I do have available on my PC account, so I do know how it is.

    Again, you DO NOT need to do Random queues to earn rAD beyond the 3x MEs and RLQ as a new player. I never said they should grind out MotH or DL. Queue for a dungeon, like VT, CN, ndemo, or any of the other easy multiple chest dungeons. These are perfectly viable ways to earn rAD if you cannot complete most of the dungeons in RIQ. Anyways we are far off the topic of this forum thread.

    U do realize those dungeon that u mention are part of RIQ. So what's the reason they can't they que for RIQ again? Its just easy for someone to say like that when they don't even know what its like.
    Considering this thread is about Tiamat and the topic of other similar harder dungeons in the RIQ came up, maybe so they don't run across those dungeons that they can't do. I am constantly helping and giving advice to those in my guild who started with M16, or returned, and all of them aren't having troubles with RIQ after a month of playing, which is on target with what I said earlier. And I have gone on to PS4 to refine my advice and make sure that I wasn't spouting anything that would be counter-productive. Don't discount other people's experience and what they say because they don't match up with your line of thinking or experiences. There are alternatives, randoms aren't the only way to earn money.
    As if those dungeon that u mention earlier are easy for them. No, they still need people to carry them even in a dungeon with end chest like VT and CN. They might as well que for RIQ. So your statement is kinda pointless and contradicts its own.
  • finmakinfinmakin Member Posts: 390 Arc User
    Yesterday I joined a 10 man tiamat run, since I wanted to see if the stories are true.
    I died once since i am shortlegged and the jump to other platform was a little to big... But the run was smoothly with no issues
    Ogguk The Beholder… Justicar Paladin
    Puny Tank

    Guildleader of NWLC Alpha
  • cherryman1cherryman1 Member Posts: 341 Arc User
    finmakin said:

    Yesterday I joined a 10 man tiamat run, since I wanted to see if the stories are true.
    I died once since i am shortlegged and the jump to other platform was a little to big... But the run was smoothly with no issues

    I think part of what you need to say in this is if it was just by joining randoms in RIQ or did you get into it with a premade? They aren't complaining about premades who can discuss who does what and inform others what they need to do before hand. Issue is with a set of 10 strangers not coordinating.
    Guild Leader: Under the Influence
    Yule (Barb): 55k : Siren (TR): 60k : Torun (DC): 54k : Siren OP (OP): 59k : Siren SW (SW): 54k : Modern (F): 62k : Cherry1 (CW) : 48k Siren HR (HR): 54k
  • oldtimer#7525 oldtimer Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    Tiamat is perfectly doable and can be comfortably completed with a random team full of 16-17k item level players. Getting to 17k item level and balancing all of your offensive stats without guild boons costs less than 50k AD so don't even talk about how *hard* that would be for a newbie. Learning the 5 or so mechanics of the fight takes 10 minutes while playing or 2 minutes of explanation.

    You know and follow the mechanics and it's easy, you don't know / don't follow the mechanics and you will fail miserably regardless of gear and that is just the way it should be.

    The only change Tiamat needs is a circle just like Demogorgon so that people can communicate if needed before they actually engage with the trial. Not that that will make a huge difference for randoms where no one is willing to learn or listen ( again, looking at Demogorgon as an example ) but it should be introduced for consistency if nothing else.
  • wylonuswylonus Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,376 Arc User
    tiamat just broken again, still one shotted, even the devils making 1 hit kills, even i am at 23k. it was fine few days ago,. now it no good.
  • salidor#0795 salidor Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    cannot confirm. I was in this morning with 23k SW (beside the fact that player left RIQ queue so it was undoable after time)

    Fighting alone for the blue gem does huge damage from mobs but no one shots
    i was alone on blue dragon with gem and get no one shots (it was like 20% hp)

    There were no one shots at clerics and not on black or white dragon (but there i not receiving all of the damage)
  • wylonuswylonus Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,376 Arc User
    decided to do dragon heralds for heroic encounters on weekly challenges, got it completed. this patch just mess up taimat again. i never saw taimat heads cast red effect that far at campfire, was that intend to kill afk'ers? even when other players que'd in the spot got intant death.

  • kangkeokkangkeok Member Posts: 1,121 Arc User
    finmakin said:

    Yesterday I joined a 10 man tiamat run, since I wanted to see if the stories are true.
    I died once since i am shortlegged and the jump to other platform was a little to big... But the run was smoothly with no issues

    Like Tiamat in mod 5, it only gets better when more people know about the tactics & mechanics. The frustration that people face here are thing of the past when most of the player base are still clueless of the mechanic. So I don't think its fair to compare it to what it is now. However I only speak for PC and do not rule out that there wont be issue with other platform like PS4 & xbox since they are updated at later date.
  • wylonuswylonus Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,376 Arc User
    problem with those dont know or possible ingore picking up the dragon glyphs, that why they get so many wipes and one shots.
  • feanor70118feanor70118 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,155 Arc User

    It is playable.

    1) Each tank goes to 1 side.
    2) Their team must get the souls to use for that side.
    3) Stay on your tanks side during the Cleric phases.
    4) DPS 1/3-1/2 off each head each time. Same as before all to Black, then burn down to 1/3-1/2 then Blue and so on.

    In short play the mechanics and stop expecting it to be a simple smash and done.

    Um, no.
    For a lot of reasons.
    Firstly, this is not an endgame campaign any longer. People would have had to time and motivation to learn the machanics when it was, and you know what? The mechanics meant everybody picking dragon souls in even numbers (before we realized that only two actually matter), 1 party per dragon, and people rarely finishing at all. It only took a few days before players invented the zerg method, ignoring the designed mechanics and winning most of the time (if everybody learned and avoided which abilities and items caused lag problems for the whole raid). It was months later before the lag problems were actually fixed. Point being, learning the mechanics was a bad idea. Workarounds made what was then endgame content playable.

    But now? Scaling is a disaster. It was always a bad idea and removing 60% of the players from the raid only makes that clearer. People who weren't around in mod 5 are NOT EVER going to learn the mechanics for a raid that has no reason to be this difficult. Mod 16 killed endgame player population just like mod 6 did and just like many of us warned that it would. Because, as it turns out, experienced players actually know more about the game than novice devs. There aren't going to be enough powerful players for Tiamat, as currently designed, to be playable.

    So the fix is not a learn-to-play issue. It's an undo-these-mistakes issue. It's a listen-to-players issue.
  • finalfantasyac7finalfantasyac7 Member Posts: 582 Arc User
    The rewards you get from Tiamat is not worth the time.
    It was ok doing it in mod 15, beating tiamat within 6 minutes tho.
    Also most dungeons are not worth our time due to scaling. Making it harder to beat Lair of lostmauth for example and for what.. same HAMSTER rewards such as blue outdated mod 5 gears worth 100 RP or something, 3K rad, and some other useless items.



    My warlock is 22K IL without gh20 boons so im missing 2K extra item level from that.
    All stats capped with 260k hp, 150K power, legendary mounts and comps, all power insignias but none of this HAMSTER matters cuz we are HAMSTER scaled to Item level 14K lol.
    Btw, lava instantly kills you so don't use life scrolls cuz it's useless lmao.

    Warlock- Lv80. || Rogue - Lv80. || Wizard - Lv80. || Paladin - Lv80. || Cleric - Lv80. || Ranger - Lv70. || Barbarian - Lv70. || Fighter - Lv70.

    ¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨

  • fyrstigorfyrstigor Member Posts: 299 Arc User

    It is playable.

    1) Each tank goes to 1 side.
    2) Their team must get the souls to use for that side.
    3) Stay on your tanks side during the Cleric phases.
    4) DPS 1/3-1/2 off each head each time. Same as before all to Black, then burn down to 1/3-1/2 then Blue and so on.

    In short play the mechanics and stop expecting it to be a simple smash and done.

    Um, no.
    For a lot of reasons.
    Firstly, this is not an endgame campaign any longer. People would have had to time and motivation to learn the machanics when it was, and you know what? The mechanics meant everybody picking dragon souls in even numbers (before we realized that only two actually matter), 1 party per dragon, and people rarely finishing at all. It only took a few days before players invented the zerg method, ignoring the designed mechanics and winning most of the time (if everybody learned and avoided which abilities and items caused lag problems for the whole raid). It was months later before the lag problems were actually fixed. Point being, learning the mechanics was a bad idea. Workarounds made what was then endgame content playable.

    But now? Scaling is a disaster. It was always a bad idea and removing 60% of the players from the raid only makes that clearer. People who weren't around in mod 5 are NOT EVER going to learn the mechanics for a raid that has no reason to be this difficult. Mod 16 killed endgame player population just like mod 6 did and just like many of us warned that it would. Because, as it turns out, experienced players actually know more about the game than novice devs. There aren't going to be enough powerful players for Tiamat, as currently designed, to be playable.

    So the fix is not a learn-to-play issue. It's an undo-these-mistakes issue. It's a listen-to-players issue.
    Yea, this isnt endgame anymore, thats why its in RIQ. Thats why the itemlvl to enter is only 13k. Thats why its pretty easy to do and complete. The mechanics havnt changed for tiamat its still the same as always. The part with each party for each head wasnt a mechanic, that was an intended way of playing. Players found something else to be easier so they did that, and have done it ever since, and still do.

    Scaling isnt a disaster. Im capped on stats at lvl 80, and have found nothing being to hard because of scaling. Most content is actually easier that what it used to be. So even someone who isnt capped on stats can still do content just fine. And tiamat isnt any different. Ofc going in on as DPS with all points put into defense instead of offense stats means it gonna be hard for u to do anything. But the scaling or the dungeons arent to blame for players building wrong. Stupid players will have a hard time, as its supposed to be.

    Im not sure i would agree that endgame players have all gone. I still see plenty endgame runs, i still have plenty on my friendlist, in my guild, in my alliance. And i still see lots of activity in the pug channels. In my experience the only endgame players who decided to quit was those who refused to play the game now that they cant oneshot all bosses. Its the endgamers who insisted that they could be the only dps on the team and the 4 others had to be support to buff their dmg. And to be fair, most of those only played with each other, most of thoses didnt do random ques, they didnt play with the normal average guy. So all of them leaving didnt really hurt anyone but themselves, and no one really cares they are gone anyway.

    Experienced players often know more about how the game is right now yes. But they will never know what direction Cryptic wanna take the game, or how they wanna see the game change.
  • finalfantasyac7finalfantasyac7 Member Posts: 582 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    How anyone with the right mind thinks that scaling is ok ??
    You spend your time gearing up your character, doing campaigns to unlock boons, have rank 15 enchants, reaching level 80, reaching item level 27K, and $$ to give your character some extra boost just to find out you can't play 99% of the dungeons at full power ?
    It's like playing final fantasy or any other rpg game where you finally have reached level 99 but you get scaled back to level 50 because the level 50 enemies were too easy to kill at level 99. Lol, what a joke !!

    No matter what anyone says. Scaling is not ok and should be removed from all level 70 dungeons. Don't care about level 60 or lower level dungeons tho.
    Warlock- Lv80. || Rogue - Lv80. || Wizard - Lv80. || Paladin - Lv80. || Cleric - Lv80. || Ranger - Lv70. || Barbarian - Lv70. || Fighter - Lv70.

    ¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨

  • feanor70118feanor70118 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,155 Arc User
    fyrstigor said:



    Yea, this isnt endgame anymore, thats why its in RIQ. Thats why the itemlvl to enter is only 13k. Thats why its pretty easy to do and complete. The mechanics havnt changed for tiamat its still the same as always. The part with each party for each head wasnt a mechanic, that was an intended way of playing. Players found something else to be easier so they did that, and have done it ever since, and still do.

    Scaling isnt a disaster. Im capped on stats at lvl 80, and have found nothing being to hard because of scaling. Most content is actually easier that what it used to be. So even someone who isnt capped on stats can still do content just fine. And tiamat isnt any different. Ofc going in on as DPS with all points put into defense instead of offense stats means it gonna be hard for u to do anything. But the scaling or the dungeons arent to blame for players building wrong. Stupid players will have a hard time, as its supposed to be.

    Not sure who you're talking to here. I don't really care. It is not reasonable to expect players to gear up and learn mechanics for a raid that only occasionally comes up in the RIQ and isn't even necessary to get the few boons from the relevant campaign. The RIQ should be winnable for any bunch of players at the minimum IL that happen to get thrown together by the queue. Of course, it's been years since Cryptic understood the need to either set IL gates at a realistic level or design content for the states IL. But Tiamat in its present state is a shining beacon of clueless design. Fixes that broke stuff, bad interaction with scaling, unrealistic DPS checks, all resulting in sucking yet more enjoyment out of the game and wasting time for those of us who are at BiS or near level but just aren't strong enough to carry nine other players.
    fyrstigor said:


    Im not sure i would agree that endgame players have all gone. I still see plenty endgame runs, i still have plenty on my friendlist, in my guild, in my alliance. And i still see lots of activity in the pug channels. In my experience the only endgame players who decided to quit was those who refused to play the game now that they cant oneshot all bosses. Its the endgamers who insisted that they could be the only dps on the team and the 4 others had to be support to buff their dmg. And to be fair, most of those only played with each other, most of thoses didnt do random ques, they didnt play with the normal average guy. So all of them leaving didnt really hurt anyone but themselves, and no one really cares they are gone anyway.

    Experienced players often know more about how the game is right now yes. But they will never know what direction Cryptic wanna take the game, or how they wanna see the game change.

    Well, congraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatulations on somehow having a guild/alliance that wasn't decimated by the Great Catastrophe of Mod 16. In my experience, a whole lot of friendly, active and helpful players haven't much logged on since mod 16 came out on preview and every aspect of the game has suffered as a result. And it wasn't the endgames who insisted on a one-dps 4-buff model: it was the devs who refused to listen to players, wouldn't balance the classes, wouldn't design content realistically, and pretty much ignored players' input for years on end. So pardon me if I'm not interested in how they want to see the game change, and don't think that's relevant to how it ought to change. At best it's been one step forward and two steps back every time they make a major change. Mod 16 has a nice boon tab. Cutting down on buff powers was a good idea. New gear being less useful than old stuff was not. Failing to properly update stats on old artifacts was not. Failing to stick to D&D ideas regarding different stats for different classes was not. Failing to keep professions relevant was not, especially immediately after a mod that emphasized professions. Fouling up the REQ was not. More unrealistic IL gates (conversely, unrealistic DPS checks) was not.

    Obviously, I could go on. But ideally, any random group of 10 people who've got the gear should be able to finish a 10-person raid. That isn't the case, so it's on the devs to fix, not us.

    Once upon a time, the random queues would give us parties that, with a bit of patience and maybe more than one try at a final boss, would allow us to finish dungeons and get our AD for a day. That was a good idea and I cannot understand why the devs have been unable to get back to it since mod 6.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,343 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    The minimum items are set for a level in which a group of that item level (13k in this case), and has the skill to play their class, knows the mechanics, and are actually a good player. Then the more geared out you get, the less that skill and following mechanics matter. With every dungeon that has been released since they introduced minimum iL requirements (with the exception of ToMM), I have been able to take a group of players who barely meet the requirements, but are skilled in their class and successfully complete it. Despite what people say, the devs do play their dungeons before letting players test it, but they also know how the dungeon was intended to play, they know how to play their class, and base the entry requires off of that. If you are newer to the game, you may want to either A.) wait until you have more gear or knowledge of the dungeon or class, or B.) have friends/guild/alliance carry you through it and learn that way.
  • feanor70118feanor70118 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,155 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    The minimum items are set for a level in which a group of that item level (13k in this case), and has the skill to play their class, knows the mechanics, and are actually a good player. Then the more geared out you get, the less that skill and following mechanics matter. With every dungeon that has been released since they introduced minimum iL requirements (with the exception of ToMM), I have been able to take a group of players who barely meet the requirements, but are skilled in their class and successfully complete it. Despite what people say, the devs do play their dungeons before letting players test it, but they also know how the dungeon was intended to play, they know how to play their class, and base the entry requires off of that. If you are newer to the game, you may want to either A.) wait until you have more gear or knowledge of the dungeon or class, or B.) have friends/guild/alliance carry you through it and learn that way.

    Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure. Show me the video of a 5 person 11k run at FBI.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,343 Arc User
    Sorry I don't have videos to back me up, only personal and secondhand antidotes. It's not like anyone would put a video up that is an hour long that would be pretty boring to watch and is not entertainment. Considering a 15k could solo it though, it's not that far fetched that an 11k group could.
  • fyrstigorfyrstigor Member Posts: 299 Arc User

    fyrstigor said:



    Yea, this isnt endgame anymore, thats why its in RIQ. Thats why the itemlvl to enter is only 13k. Thats why its pretty easy to do and complete. The mechanics havnt changed for tiamat its still the same as always. The part with each party for each head wasnt a mechanic, that was an intended way of playing. Players found something else to be easier so they did that, and have done it ever since, and still do.

    Scaling isnt a disaster. Im capped on stats at lvl 80, and have found nothing being to hard because of scaling. Most content is actually easier that what it used to be. So even someone who isnt capped on stats can still do content just fine. And tiamat isnt any different. Ofc going in on as DPS with all points put into defense instead of offense stats means it gonna be hard for u to do anything. But the scaling or the dungeons arent to blame for players building wrong. Stupid players will have a hard time, as its supposed to be.

    Not sure who you're talking to here. I don't really care. It is not reasonable to expect players to gear up and learn mechanics for a raid that only occasionally comes up in the RIQ and isn't even necessary to get the few boons from the relevant campaign. The RIQ should be winnable for any bunch of players at the minimum IL that happen to get thrown together by the queue. Of course, it's been years since Cryptic understood the need to either set IL gates at a realistic level or design content for the states IL. But Tiamat in its present state is a shining beacon of clueless design. Fixes that broke stuff, bad interaction with scaling, unrealistic DPS checks, all resulting in sucking yet more enjoyment out of the game and wasting time for those of us who are at BiS or near level but just aren't strong enough to carry nine other players.
    Why are u talking about scaling? These new players u talk of who only hae minimun itemlvl isnt gonna be scaled. I wasnt on my new toon at 13.1k itemlvl. So if ur not scaled and u cant do it, u most likely have all the wrong stats in, or ur playing ur toon not optimal.

    I agree that min itemlvl over the years have been set somewhat wrong. But min itemlvl is just that, a min. If a minor part of the community is able to do a dungeon at min itemlvl, its set correctly. If majority needs more, that sucks for them. But holding some back from content because the majority is to bad to complete at set itemlvl isnt really a solution either.

    And for Tiamat ur just plain wrong. Scaling is fine, for those who are scaled, now remember not everyone or everything gets scaled equally. DPS checks are fine aswell. And u have 25 min to complete it. No one said it must be done in 15.


    fyrstigor said:


    Im not sure i would agree that endgame players have all gone. I still see plenty endgame runs, i still have plenty on my friendlist, in my guild, in my alliance. And i still see lots of activity in the pug channels. In my experience the only endgame players who decided to quit was those who refused to play the game now that they cant oneshot all bosses. Its the endgamers who insisted that they could be the only dps on the team and the 4 others had to be support to buff their dmg. And to be fair, most of those only played with each other, most of thoses didnt do random ques, they didnt play with the normal average guy. So all of them leaving didnt really hurt anyone but themselves, and no one really cares they are gone anyway.

    Experienced players often know more about how the game is right now yes. But they will never know what direction Cryptic wanna take the game, or how they wanna see the game change.

    Well, congraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatulations on somehow having a guild/alliance that wasn't decimated by the Great Catastrophe of Mod 16. In my experience, a whole lot of friendly, active and helpful players haven't much logged on since mod 16 came out on preview and every aspect of the game has suffered as a result. And it wasn't the endgames who insisted on a one-dps 4-buff model: it was the devs who refused to listen to players, wouldn't balance the classes, wouldn't design content realistically, and pretty much ignored players' input for years on end. So pardon me if I'm not interested in how they want to see the game change, and don't think that's relevant to how it ought to change. At best it's been one step forward and two steps back every time they make a major change. Mod 16 has a nice boon tab. Cutting down on buff powers was a good idea. New gear being less useful than old stuff was not. Failing to properly update stats on old artifacts was not. Failing to stick to D&D ideas regarding different stats for different classes was not. Failing to keep professions relevant was not, especially immediately after a mod that emphasized professions. Fouling up the REQ was not. More unrealistic IL gates (conversely, unrealistic DPS checks) was not.

    Obviously, I could go on. But ideally, any random group of 10 people who've got the gear should be able to finish a 10-person raid. That isn't the case, so it's on the devs to fix, not us.

    Once upon a time, the random queues would give us parties that, with a bit of patience and maybe more than one try at a final boss, would allow us to finish dungeons and get our AD for a day. That was a good idea and I cannot understand why the devs have been unable to get back to it since mod 6.
    Im sure all guilds and alliances took a hit. Some of us just tried to be an active part in keeping going, and trying to have our members not listen to all the crybabies out there who proclaimed the game to be dead and impossible to play at mod 16.

    Before mod 16, all the dungeons could be completed with 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps. Just wasnt much of anyone doing it that way because it was slower, and u needed better DPS to complete it compared to just taking lesser geared buffers and 1 or 2 good DPS. When TONG came out u could do with 3 DPS just fine from launch. When CR came out that was way way harder to do. The devs buffed dungeons because everyone was doing the 1 dps trick. Devs where making dungeons so that it was harder to oneshot, leaving those who didnt play like that at a huge disadvantage. So yes, it was the players forcing this way of playing that made things bad. It was the devs fault for giving us the option to. Now the option has been taken away, and many are crying about it and complaining that the game is to hard or impossible because they can no longer solo all dungeon.

    Failing to update stats on old artifacts? U mean that they where giving 999 instead of 1000? That has no game impact what so ever. If u mean all old artifacts doesnt give the same stats as new ones. Why would they? They are old, we need new better shiny stuff to chase.

    The lifecycle of professions have always been like it is now. Its updated, its good. Then a mod or 2 with no updates where no one use it. I dont think cryptic team is big enough to have professions updated with every mod. But thats nothing new, its always been like that.

    REQ is easier than ever before. Itemlvl gate on LoMM is the most realistic i have seen in years. The DPS check of LoMM is the easiest they have come out with in years.

    And ur wrong, any group of randoms with min itemlvl shouldnt be able to complete said content. Completing content shouldnt be a matter of itemlvl, it should be a matter of team play and mechanics. Itemlvl should only have a say in how fast said content will be done. And once upon a time random ques would give us 1 or 2 players who could solo everything so the team could be AFK and still everyone got the rewards. Now group has been put into group content, and many others like u complaining about that.
  • tebtengri#5279 tebtengri Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    > @bigman99#8273 said:
    > Ive beat the new Tiamat a few times and also lost it a few times. Also I didn't know their were gems at all and i've run this thing about 100 times. What are the gems?
    >
    > IMO, if they want us to play to a mechanic they should post the mechanic somewhow or a least have a text summary of the mission. I have not ever and will never look on the internet on how to play a game mission. To me, this is the job of the game.
    >
    > Cradle, Castle Ravenloft and Drufi are fails in terms of game information. Everyone says.. .go look on the interent. I won't. Unfortunately other players must suffer through my dozen fails till I learn whats going on. This is the game's failure.
    >
    > First of all if you refuse to look for information for something you are preparing to do, that IS a failure on your part. Whether it be a video game or a road trip or a presentation you have to make (school, management, advertising etc.) failure to plan is still a failure. As for it being the game's fault that you don't notice (100 times and not knowing about the gems?) or cant be bothered to learn how to beat a mechanic...well that is just bad gaming on your part right there; ask old Everquest players how hard it could be to earn an epic quest weapon, without a quest journal, then you will see a fail from the game itself. Tiamat isn't what it used to be, but it is absolutely beatable. CR had/has its own issues with bugs, but there are visual and audio ques, that when working correctly do announce the start of a vital mechanic. If i'm not mistaken, isn't there some lore under battle tactics about Drufi the first time you fight her? And plenty of people beat CoDG everyday.

    Expecting someone to prepare is one thing. The game having some type of book or something that has lore related way to handle mechanics(at least for non-new content) would help. Maybe make it pop up if you fail a queued dungeon: "Go talk to X person to find out how to handle Tiamat".

    Obviously hoping for that much non-profit generating content this late is a dream but it'd be great
  • fyrstigorfyrstigor Member Posts: 299 Arc User

    > @bigman99#8273 said:

    > Ive beat the new Tiamat a few times and also lost it a few times. Also I didn't know their were gems at all and i've run this thing about 100 times. What are the gems?

    >

    > IMO, if they want us to play to a mechanic they should post the mechanic somewhow or a least have a text summary of the mission. I have not ever and will never look on the internet on how to play a game mission. To me, this is the job of the game.

    >

    > Cradle, Castle Ravenloft and Drufi are fails in terms of game information. Everyone says.. .go look on the interent. I won't. Unfortunately other players must suffer through my dozen fails till I learn whats going on. This is the game's failure.

    >

    > First of all if you refuse to look for information for something you are preparing to do, that IS a failure on your part. Whether it be a video game or a road trip or a presentation you have to make (school, management, advertising etc.) failure to plan is still a failure. As for it being the game's fault that you don't notice (100 times and not knowing about the gems?) or cant be bothered to learn how to beat a mechanic...well that is just bad gaming on your part right there; ask old Everquest players how hard it could be to earn an epic quest weapon, without a quest journal, then you will see a fail from the game itself. Tiamat isn't what it used to be, but it is absolutely beatable. CR had/has its own issues with bugs, but there are visual and audio ques, that when working correctly do announce the start of a vital mechanic. If i'm not mistaken, isn't there some lore under battle tactics about Drufi the first time you fight her? And plenty of people beat CoDG everyday.



    Expecting someone to prepare is one thing. The game having some type of book or something that has lore related way to handle mechanics(at least for non-new content) would help. Maybe make it pop up if you fail a queued dungeon: "Go talk to X person to find out how to handle Tiamat".



    Obviously hoping for that much non-profit generating content this late is a dream but it'd be great

    U understand that his book of lore is already there and have been for a long time. And message does show on ur screen when an entry is made in it.

    I can agree it would be nice if it would pop every single time someone failed. Maybe eventually even the slowest of all would get the hint and look there.
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