> It has worked this way since the beginning of the game.
>
> and it has been reported before but they
> said it had been fixed in mod14 or 15 and
> its clearly not.
Do you have a link to this?
> Also this is something we never noticed in
> past mods as several classes could give CA
>in combat.
Nightmare Wizardry still does this, IIRC
that was ages ago, so obviously not. NW is now paragon path limited, so it cant be called a viable choice. The funny side is that with marking or NW there was no limit to range, so yes i stand on what i said before, thats not working as intended, also if you noticed, when placing CA with class mechanics, the marker is actually a whole circle but with positioning, its broken into sections, which means you sometimes need to move to specific angle to actually get CA, being in the opposite flank doesn't necessarily mean you are getting CA. Atleast for cw and i believe its the same for the rest of the classes, the max range is 80, not 50, we also have a class called "ranger" in the game that are supposed to fight from range.
@vorphied thats actually wrong, in most mmos i've played as a ranged class, i dont see myself constantly being in melee range on bosses, thats why there's a tank and you can use whatever strategy you feel needed, not to mention that healers can heal you from range, nor the fact that you wont actually be taking all that much damage if you are far away and can move in and out if you need healing. At the current states its more of a static gameplay than anything else, just stay there, dps, and get healed, no strategy, nothing. Thats not how mmos work.
In module 14 combat advantage by positioning did not work at all (not just at range) afaik the range thing has always been intended. With that being said, the designing of specific pieces of gear to only work outside of the range of combat advantage but grant bonuses to combat advantage really boggles my mind.
I like a range limit for CA of 20 feet as it allows melee dps to at least somewhat compete with ranged dps. Some ranged dps are granted CA with certain feats ( SW's No Pity, No Mercy). If you grant all classes 80 feet CA then ranged dps are given a super unfair advantage and you would make boss encounters stupid easy as all dps and the healer would stay at range with only the tank in melee range and thus the only person really needing healing then. If ranged do not get CA past 20 feet and play out past 20 feet then there is no need to put any points into CA at all and just stack power in its place or improve on other stats. Melee have to allot a lot of points into CA to get anything out of it so they really have to pay for the extra damage.
If they extend the range of combat advantage they will need to recheck all classes dps in the game and do another complete pass on damage for all classes. Else, classes like fighter and barb will further go backwards in dps which they are on the lower end of the dps meter and classes like wizard, ranger, warlock will skyrocket in damage. This will also affect who gets invited into parties since melee classes unless given a major boost in damage would never get invites to parties since they just can't compete. This then brings back up the issue with do you give more mobility to melee classes to allow them to run ahead again to compensate for monsters that will be running towards the ranged dps classes. Last, the content is built for melee in the game and making ranged the best classes could make a lot of mechanics of dungeons outdated since you wouldn't have to do them.
why would this be true? extending the range doesn't mean the inner range will be affected? and high dps trs and hrs are melee. as a hr i'm never at a distance. wizzies can be at a distance but they're still not getting their best dps if they are because most are still using shadowstalker rings.
I like a range limit for CA of 20 feet as it allows melee dps to at least somewhat compete with ranged dps. Some ranged dps are granted CA with certain feats ( SW's No Pity, No Mercy). If you grant all classes 80 feet CA then ranged dps are given a super unfair advantage and you would make boss encounters stupid easy as all dps and the healer would stay at range with only the tank in melee range and thus the only person really needing healing then. If ranged do not get CA past 20 feet and play out past 20 feet then there is no need to put any points into CA at all and just stack power in its place or improve on other stats. Melee have to allot a lot of points into CA to get anything out of it so they really have to pay for the extra damage.
ranged still needs healing in this game. plenty of attacks go outwards or follow the aggro. in a perfect world the tank is holding aggro but most tanks aren't very good at holding aggro. my hr steals it just by being a dps a good chunk of the time. I can't tell you how often I'm tanking in lomm. it's disappointing. and most dps do not play at range. bad ones do. wizzies sometimes stay in a medium range. but for a good amount of the hunt gear you need to be closer if you want to be effective. hr's tr's and barbies need to be in melee range. and the damage will still track you down and you won't get heals if you're too far away. extending the range isn't going to effect that. if you get a ranged hr in your party you're still going to be a sad panda. it's not going to make them effective. if you get a ranged tr you're going to be even sadder. lol
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
Combat Advantage has always had a range requirement to it due to how that system functions. The current distance is 20 feet.
Why does it have a range? The way this particular combat advantage system was built is purely on flanking positioning and doesn't take into account if the player is engaged in combat with the enemy or not. If we were to look at a system with no distance check what you would see is that just having another player running around somewhere in a zone you're in would be giving you combat advantage against your targets, even when the player isn't in visual range of you.
We aren't in a place where we could spend the time/resources to redesign how combat advantage is structured to change its functionality to not need a distance check, although there is always the potential to do so in the future. For now it does need to have a distance check.
That said, 20 feet is too restrictive so we will look into extending it to 85 feet since the typical max range of a player power is 80 feet.
There is always the potential in the future to do a bigger pass on combat advantage to improve the base mechanic itself so that range doesn't have to be a factor, but for now there isn't room for that in the near term.
That is an incredible announcement. I always wondered about it but never thought any action would be taken. TYVM. It is logical to have CA at range.
Ranged DPS will be very happy. Melee DPS... rage incoming I think.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
That said, 20 feet is too restrictive so we will look into extending it to 85 feet since the typical max range of a player power is 80 feet.
There is always the potential in the future to do a bigger pass on combat advantage to improve the base mechanic itself so that range doesn't have to be a factor, but for now there isn't room for that in the near term.
In my opinion, this would be sufficient. Although any better idea would be a plus. I certainly look forward to changes that makes range isn't a factor.
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arcanjo86Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,093Arc User
Combat Advantage has always had a range requirement to it due to how that system functions. The current distance is 20 feet.
Why does it have a range? The way this particular combat advantage system was built is purely on flanking positioning and doesn't take into account if the player is engaged in combat with the enemy or not. If we were to look at a system with no distance check what you would see is that just having another player running around somewhere in a zone you're in would be giving you combat advantage against your targets, even when the player isn't in visual range of you.
We aren't in a place where we could spend the time/resources to redesign how combat advantage is structured to change its functionality to not need a distance check, although there is always the potential to do so in the future. For now it does need to have a distance check.
That said, 20 feet is too restrictive so we will look into extending it to 85 feet since the typical max range of a player power is 80 feet.
There is always the potential in the future to do a bigger pass on combat advantage to improve the base mechanic itself so that range doesn't have to be a factor, but for now there isn't room for that in the near term.
@noworries#8859 any chance this range increase will be added in mod 17? or future modules?
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arcanjo86Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,093Arc User
If they extend the range of combat advantage they will need to recheck all classes dps in the game and do another complete pass on damage for all classes. Else, classes like fighter and barb will further go backwards in dps which they are on the lower end of the dps meter and classes like wizard, ranger, warlock will skyrocket in damage. This will also affect who gets invited into parties since melee classes unless given a major boost in damage would never get invites to parties since they just can't compete. This then brings back up the issue with do you give more mobility to melee classes to allow them to run ahead again to compensate for monsters that will be running towards the ranged dps classes. Last, the content is built for melee in the game and making ranged the best classes could make a lot of mechanics of dungeons outdated since you wouldn't have to do them.
melee dps classes get combat advantage when behind target in a 0 - 20 range radius, while range dps classes need to come to the 20 range to get the combat advantage, the increase of the combat advantage range is for range dps powers to get combat advantage to max range of 80, because in boreworm (lomm 2nd boss) wiz when behing him and at range far from 20 get no combat advantage damage, forcing wizards and warlocks to get in the 20 range to get the combat advantage bonus and also get hit by boreworm swirl(this boss power is to make healers needed in dungeons).
Big thanks to developer for clearing this out. ===========================
It's a bit scary to think about the gap between the players who know mechanics of the game in comparison to those who don't, as both can equally influence further development of the game. It's like that one person who told everywhere that GWF should do more damage than GF, because he is "great". An actual attempt at an argument. Well, now he's called "barbie" I guess it's time to get a doll house. Jk jk
But I get what's causing all the confusion with CA bonus...
- People started using Augments that are not combat pets, ergo no CA bonus based on positioning - On top of never paying attention to actual game mechanics cause there is no way you can tell me that you never saw the little blue-tinted circular bar on enemy - On top of not having CA bonuses given by Renegade CWs or TRs smoke bomb or whatever else, which most took for granted
Melee classes already have more dmg per hit ratio in comparison to other classes.
Let's get one thing clear, ALL classes have CA bonus. This is not class-bound nor class-restrictive to anyone. You can't take more CA benefit than any other class. This is a fundamental mechanic that worked for over five years now.
If you can get more CA by being at melee range, that doesn't mean anything because any ranged class can come up close and attack mobs. I do it all the time, nothing stops anyone else to do so, too.
Now, you say guys how melee classes will lack in comparison. That's untrue!
1. Ranged classes have their base weapon damage internally reduced in comparison to all other melee classes, bar HR and TR who have it split in two pieces of the equipment. 2. Furthermore, I can't recall a single actual power of ranged classes which has more Magnitude than other melee classes circa MOD16.
As you can see, melee classes already have an upper hand, and by a quite a lot.
I do suggest learning the mechanics first and getting to a reasonable state of the game before calling for buffs or nerfs.
However you look at it, all ranged classes since game's inception had the ability to do CA based damage. Just because you miraculously found out that CA exists and is represented as a blue circle after long 5 years of NWO's existence, that doesn't mean that this feature is either bugged or meant to be used only by melee classes. I've seen a video online that states how CA is bugged because it activates whilst flanking. Pure ignorance in my opinion. Learn the mechanics, learn the history of the mechanic, visit a wiki site maybe? I dunno...
I refuse to acknowledge that in this day and age people don't know what CA is. It is troubling. I understand that new players might not get it, but I don't know... don't know...
I think that this is a nice wake-up call to all people who never pay attention and this is a perfect proof that shows just how easy and void previous mods were since not that many players were paying enough attention to the game's actual mechanics at hand. And CA bonus is the bare minimum I expect that any DPSer know. A reason more to like MOD16.
If it was up to me, I'd never change a single thing and I'd tell to people to learn, finally, how to position themselves in order to get CA bonus.
After people get in tune with the mechanics of CA, then change it if you will. Increasing CA flanking bonus to 80ft (which is a lot) sounds only logical to be honest.
Having 80ft range sounds super sweet, but at that range visibility of the blue square will almost be nonexistent, so navigation should be done based on the position of an ally in the party. In my opinion at that stage all features which provide CA bonus should be gone forever.
Having CA at 80ft in no way benefits ranged classes more, it simply allows them to have more strategy and makes the game for what it was originally intended for. For people who use +% rings, such as the Ring of the Shadowstalker, they still need to be close to the enemy.
However, as a Wizard I always had to let go of items which give bonus damage at range for the sake of CA bonus. This made my gameplay limiting and I agree that it never felt like ranged classes get enough love from developers due to that reason alone. It also made all other rings that give bonus at a range rather unsettling to use. I speak about rings like Ring of the Spellflinger +5
This ring was giving +2.5% damage if you stand 50' or more from enemy. However, it came with two defense slots. I'm sure it had some potential uses, for instance pvp, but it never was used and it's such a wasted opportunity at creating a more dynamic gameplay in PvE.
It's nice to have things that allow a more dynamic gameplay, but in my opinion people already got used to a close-ranged fighting system. Virtually all ranged classes have to go into the center of the fight to do more damage, and not just because of the CA, but because of the powers. If nothing changes, it wouldn't be the most terrible idea, but items which grant bonus at a range should simply be "giving bonus to powers" or "attacks".
It's a mess I must say, but a mess that can be organized easily to make it worthwhile for both developers and players alike.
Or, simply, make a ring that gives CA bonus to the player at all times or for a period of time. It can inherit the "Nightmare Wizardry" feat power. It can be called "Divine perception". This in case people insist to be superlazy and not take the very basic of mechanics into the account. I give up.
Regards
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
If they extend the range of combat advantage they will need to recheck all classes dps in the game and do another complete pass on damage for all classes. Else, classes like fighter and barb will further go backwards in dps which they are on the lower end of the dps meter and classes like wizard, ranger, warlock will skyrocket in damage. This will also affect who gets invited into parties since melee classes unless given a major boost in damage would never get invites to parties since they just can't compete. This then brings back up the issue with do you give more mobility to melee classes to allow them to run ahead again to compensate for monsters that will be running towards the ranged dps classes. Last, the content is built for melee in the game and making ranged the best classes could make a lot of mechanics of dungeons outdated since you wouldn't have to do them.
why would this be true? extending the range doesn't mean the inner range will be affected? and high dps trs and hrs are melee. as a hr i'm never at a distance. wizzies can be at a distance but they're still not getting their best dps if they are because most are still using shadowstalker rings.
Melee class damage is currently higher and gives combat advantage because it also has negatives for being up close. The vast majority of the stuns/knock downs/immobilization effects are close combat. With the reduction of mobility on melee classes and how frequent monsters move around the positioning is the biggest reason for lower damage numbers from the barb and fighter classes. To recap a melee class has to run into position, re-position and chase monsters if players pull from range or try to kite as well as deal with all of the mechanics meant to get dps classes to move away from the monster.
Ranged class damage would be very close to what the melee classes would do with the change to CA proposed. This means that a ranged class now does the same damage per attack that a melee class does without having to re-position, move away, chase down their targets. They would get to continue to attack close to 100% of the time where a melee class is re-positioning 30% to 60% of the fight. With this change would ranged classes be happy with a say 30% cut in their damage off the top because they are getting CA at range?
Right now one of the biggest reasons that the barbarian and fighter are on the low end of dps scale is their need to be in range of the monsters to do their damage. If you give the ranged classes such large advantage to damage making them equals you would also have to add into the game stuns/immobilization effects/knock downs to make the ranged classes stop attacking for large periods of the fight to equal out the damage. This would have to be done not just in the current end game dungeon but all prior content to balance it. When FBI came out how did barb/rogue get through it since everyone stated you needed ranged classes to do it? Are we forgetting that people in game essentially told everyone to stop bringing those classes into content with several of the youtubers of the day making videos to not bring melee classes. Until they implement where you can change your character to the class of the mod they shouldn't be making content that is beneficial to one class type. This mod suffers from the melee classes doing low amounts of damage. We don't need to add into the game a larger gap for those classes. The only class that I think would need the extra damage is the warlock right now. Giving the CW more damage when they need to look at either bringing them more in line with other dps classes or bringing up the other classes to them is really where we are at right now.
Since I believe they killed off some abilities for classes to balance them they really need to look at updating tool tips to reflect what is in place now. Making all of those tool tips active will just unbalance the game. Having played almost all of the classes in end game the last 4 mods I will say that this mod has probably the biggest imbalance of classes in the game I have seen. While I think that may be due to them trying to sell things the class balance in previous mods was harder to judge due to buffs and combinations of buffs applied at different times. In Mod 14 I watched every class be able to one rotate the final boss of the hardest content. In Mod 15 I watch every dps class be able to 2 rotate the final boss in all content with only 1 class able to one rotate them on a lucky crit. In this mod 3 dps classes are very powerful in the TR/CW/HR classes and the SW/Barb/Fighter/Cleric classes are on the low end of the dps pool. So much is the difference that you have people who are main class players for CW/TR/HR asking for content to be harder and low end classes struggling to kill mimics at 130k power because they need to crit to be able to get the kill on the second mimic.
Post edited by cherryman1 on
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
Regardless of whether or not they get around to increasing the effective range of Combat Advantage, melee range is likely to continue to provide optimal damage for all classes.
It's much more difficult to adjust to changes in target positioning from halfway across the room than it is when you're directly behind the enemy, and not every boss in the game is content to stand in one spot and obligingly face the tank for extended periods of time. If a Wizard is pew-pewing from the back lines and the boss makes a sharp turn to execute a mechanic, because aggro has shifted, because it has a partly random action table, or for whatever other reason, that ranged Wizard has much farther to go to reposition for CA than everyone else who was hugging the target's behind and can adjust by scooting little in either direction.
Not to mention that, while group buffing is much more minimal since M16, when the party is positioned closer together you can take better advantage of bonuses like the Wyvern set +%damage splat upon daily use, the Staff of Flowers artifact power, and so on. Hanging out at range without a good reason doesn't make sense, improved CA or no.
Regardless of whether or not they get around to increasing the effective range of Combat Advantage, melee range is likely to continue to provide optimal damage for all classes.
It's much more difficult to adjust to changes in target positioning from halfway across the room than it is when you're directly behind the enemy, and not every boss in the game is content to stand in one spot and obligingly face the tank for extended periods of time. If a Wizard is pew-pewing from the back lines and the boss makes a sharp turn to execute a mechanic, because aggro has shifted, because it has a partly random action table, or for whatever other reason, that ranged Wizard has much farther to go to reposition for CA than everyone else who was hugging the target's behind and can adjust by scooting little in either direction.
Not to mention that, while group buffing is much more minimal since M16, when the party is positioned closer together you can take better advantage of bonuses like the Wyvern set +%damage splat upon daily use, the Staff of Flowers artifact power, and so on. Hanging out at range without a good reason doesn't make sense, improved CA or no.
It would become super simple since the adjust of CA would be on the tank and you would have 1 tank on one side of the mobs and the ranged on the other side. The tank just needs to stay alive and give everyone else CA.
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,213Arc User
A stupid question: Does CA work with DOT? If yes, when will it trigger? When DOT was cast? When DOT was proc?
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
A stupid question: Does CA work with DOT? If yes, when will it trigger? When DOT was cast? When DOT was proc?
That is a good question but I believe that CA is like armor pen in terms of how it is calculated in the formula. Things like doohickey might not have it.
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
> @cherryman1 said: > Regardless of whether or not they get around to increasing the effective range of Combat Advantage, melee range is likely to continue to provide optimal damage for all classes. > > It's much more difficult to adjust to changes in target positioning from halfway across the room than it is when you're directly behind the enemy, and not every boss in the game is content to stand in one spot and obligingly face the tank for extended periods of time. If a Wizard is pew-pewing from the back lines and the boss makes a sharp turn to execute a mechanic, because aggro has shifted, because it has a partly random action table, or for whatever other reason, that ranged Wizard has much farther to go to reposition for CA than everyone else who was hugging the target's behind and can adjust by scooting little in either direction. > > Not to mention that, while group buffing is much more minimal since M16, when the party is positioned closer together you can take better advantage of bonuses like the Wyvern set +%damage splat upon daily use, the Staff of Flowers artifact power, and so on. Hanging out at range without a good reason doesn't make sense, improved CA or no. > > It would become super simple since the adjust of CA would be on the tank and you would have 1 tank on one side of the mobs and the ranged on the other side. The tank just needs to stay alive and give everyone else CA.
It doesn’t always work this smoothly. Bosses that teleport, have semi-random aggro tables, or otherwise change their positioning in ways the tank can’t control throw a wrench in this strategy.
Sometimes there is no difference, and sometimes the tank can’t easily move be to where it would be best for the party.
Still makes no sense to deliberately stand at range when it’s easier and more beneficial for several reasons to stay close.
It doesn’t always work this smoothly. Bosses that teleport, have semi-random aggro tables, or otherwise change their positioning in ways the tank can’t control throw a wrench in this strategy.
Sometimes there is no difference, and sometimes the tank can’t easily move be to where it would be best for the party.
Still makes no sense to deliberately stand at range when it’s easier and more beneficial for several reasons to stay close.
That moving of the monsters/boss already happens right now for melee classes to get combat advantage when not using a skill that gives it to everyone. The difference is it is a HUGE damage buff to get when you do and ranged classes don't have to worry about most of the stuns/damage in the game at range. Ever since they nerfed ranged classes all of the content is built around the expectation that the group is near the tank. This means that ranged classes would get all of the benefits of the melee classes without having to be up close and personal with the monsters. This would kill all combat mechanic fun for most of the people in the game. I already lost a LOT of players due to the removal of buffs to the game. I don't want to lose even more since the new way to do content is to stand at the edge of the fight and have the tank move around giving CA while people press buttons as abilities come off cool down. Not to mention the people who play melee classes that are left would all leave the game.
They would have to put in mechanics into all parts of the game that would make range classes stop fighting for parts of fights as melee classes wouldn't be good in fights. We would have to see mechanics like shields that reflect ranged attacks and one shot kills to range abilities used at specific times in fights to stop everyone from just playing their ranged characters.
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
Ranged class damage would be very close to what the melee classes would do with the change to CA proposed. This means that a ranged class now does the same damage per attack that a melee class does without having to re-position, move away, chase down their targets. They would get to continue to attack close to 100% of the time where a melee class is re-positioning 30% to 60% of the fight. With this change would ranged classes be happy with a say 30% cut in their damage off the top because they are getting CA at range?
If you as a fighter, barbarian, HR or TR move or need to position better, so does the ranged class have to follow you and position themselves better. You gave this argument as if CA will be 100% up for the ranged class. Also, ranged powers are currently not that effective in comparison to the melee ones.
Basically, you are wrong since ranged classes do need to re-position in order to get CA bonus. Range doesn't matter, what matters is positioning.
Frankly, I do not see the reason why would anyone argue against Ranged classes finally getting a combat advantage buff for being at range whilst flanking.
Ranged classes had this before with skills that activate for everyone. They were just called "Renegade Wizards" or "MOFs" who were chosen as debuffers in a team. One was enough because why you'd need 2x Nightmare Wizardry? One was enough even for places like Tiamat or EDemo.
What I'm saying is - nothing changes from how it was before. It's only getting fixed. This can't serve as a jumping board for increasing melee damage as it was never WAI for melee classes to be the only ones with CA bonus.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Ranged class damage would be very close to what the melee classes would do with the change to CA proposed. This means that a ranged class now does the same damage per attack that a melee class does without having to re-position, move away, chase down their targets. They would get to continue to attack close to 100% of the time where a melee class is re-positioning 30% to 60% of the fight. With this change would ranged classes be happy with a say 30% cut in their damage off the top because they are getting CA at range?
If you as a fighter, barbarian, HR or TR move or need to position better, so does the ranged class have to follow you and position themselves better. You gave this argument as if CA will be 100% up for the ranged class. Also, ranged powers are currently not that effective in comparison to the melee ones.
Basically, you are wrong since ranged classes do need to re-position in order to get CA bonus. Range doesn't matter, what matters is positioning.
Frankly, I do not see the reason why would anyone argue against Ranged classes finally getting a combat advantage buff for being at range whilst flanking.
Ranged classes had this before with skills that activate for everyone. They were just called "Renegade Wizards" or "MOFs" who were chosen as debuffers in a team. One was enough because why you'd need 2x Nightmare Wizardry? One was enough even for places like Tiamat or EDemo.
What I'm saying is - nothing changes from how it was before. It's only getting fixed. This can't serve as a jumping board for increasing melee damage as it was never WAI for melee classes to be the only ones with CA bonus.
Giving CA in terms of damage is like giving somewhere in the 15% to 50% range of increase to ranged damage depending on stats. That will unbalance the meta since most of the mechanics in old content worked with everyone being close while needing to do enough damage to win. With the way the game played that made sure everyone was close by for all of the buffs. This would mean content that required this would be pointless since everyone would stand outside of the range of the mechanics for old content fights and just kill everything. This could change the entire meta from melee combat to ranged combat. Why have to do mechanics in fights when you can kill from a range without issues. Every class has the ability to do close melee combat. Out of the classes right now at least 3 of them can only do melee combat (barbarian, fighter, rogue). When the meta shifts to only using ranged classes will they give those with classes that aren't wanted in parties the ability to change to them?
CA has been working this way at least since mod 8 and on. If it worked that way from Mod 3 to mod 7 then I am not sure it is a good reason to go back to it.
I agree this will help the ranger and warlock classes which the archer part is quite lackluster. The best classes after this change would be the warlock, wizard, cleric and ranger. The wizard is already over performing at this stage and needs no more help. I don't know what other classes would be brought in queues with that type of power up to the best dps class right now.
In regards to CA positioning you have a healer and tank class that can move into any position and focus on their role of healing/tanking/giving CA. The way that geometry works and positioning works the area you need to be in for CA at range is MUCH larger than the area you need to be in right next to the monsters. This means that getting CA to ranged is easier than when you are closer to the target. You also don't have anywhere near as much to disrupt ranged combatants compared to melee.
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
Ok everyone, thanks for the responses and "debate" and @noworries#8859 i understand what you are saying but its not 20 ft, its 15, not alot of difference but has to be noted that it literally requires u to be in the same range as the tank.
As for the comments about ranged advantage or melee advantage or whether only pros play as melee/mid range, well that has nothing to do, cos lets take tr and barbies for example, they have mechannics that will keep them alive for long even at melee. They dint just wake up and decide to make barbies have a sentinel paragon, its because they have always been tanky. Trs have their stealth and have features that give them more deflect, movement speed over other classes, Hr can be both but they pretty much in the same boat, they have better movement than other classes.
Giving up combat advantage for power? that would be a brilliant idea if you could chose the stats you want on a gear, which is not the case here, so with the gear you have at your disposal, you can only stack about a certain amount of power, while still having 100k+ CA just sitting there. In a game where bosses have 1 shots mechanic, asking ranged classes to take the hit to the face is pretty dope. If strategy was really a thing in this game, with certain mechanics, dpses shouldn't have to be in the same range as the tank, thats why they are tanks, and even worse when the tank loses aggro randomly. Secondly, the hitbox in this game knows no such thing as "range", if a boss wants to punch you, they will teleport there and still punch you.
There shouldn't even be an argument here about whether or not there should be a range increase, the max range in the game for almost all powers is 80, that should be the base for CA, doesn't matter whether you want to play at melee or range, as long as you can hit with ur power, and well positioned, you should have CA. I cant see any advantages this is giving to ranged classes. Just like the shadowstalker which is definitely meant for melee classes, there is also a ring with the same function for ranged classes when at 50ft or further (yes i know it has defense slots instead, but thats not the point). They have items in the game that will only give you their bonuses when outside 15ft, that should be enough.
I personally never worried about CA, only noticed it wasn't working in a certain mod when soloing, but again, there was a transition from 15 mods where literally all classes could give CA (tanks included, which is an important factor cos u always have one) and you had feats in both paragons that made you notice no difference from playing one or another paragon, thats not the case anymore. Marking doesn't give CA anymore, feats are unique to each paragon.
Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
Ok everyone, thanks for the responses and "debate" and @noworries#8859 i understand what you are saying but its not 20 ft, its 15, not alot of difference but has to be noted that it literally requires u to be in the same range as the tank.
As for the comments about ranged advantage or melee advantage or whether only pros play as melee/mid range, well that has nothing to do, cos lets take tr and barbies for example, they have mechannics that will keep them alive for long even at melee. They dint just wake up and decide to make barbies have a sentinel paragon, its because they have always been tanky. Trs have their stealth and have features that give them more deflect, movement speed over other classes, Hr can be both but they pretty much in the same boat, they have better movement than other classes.
Giving up combat advantage for power? that would be a brilliant idea if you could chose the stats you want on a gear, which is not the case here, so with the gear you have at your disposal, you can only stack about a certain amount of power, while still having 100k+ CA just sitting there. In a game where bosses have 1 shots mechanic, asking ranged classes to take the hit to the face is pretty dope. If strategy was really a thing in this game, with certain mechanics, dpses shouldn't have to be in the same range as the tank, thats why they are tanks, and even worse when the tank loses aggro randomly. Secondly, the hitbox in this game knows no such thing as "range", if a boss wants to punch you, they will teleport there and still punch you.
There shouldn't even be an argument here about whether or not there should be a range increase, the max range in the game for almost all powers is 80, that should be the base for CA, doesn't matter whether you want to play at melee or range, as long as you can hit with ur power, and well positioned, you should have CA. I cant see any advantages this is giving to ranged classes. Just like the shadowstalker which is definitely meant for melee classes, there is also a ring with the same function for ranged classes when at 50ft or further (yes i know it has defense slots instead, but thats not the point). They have items in the game that will only give you their bonuses when outside 15ft, that should be enough.
I personally never worried about CA, only noticed it wasn't working in a certain mod when soloing, but again, there was a transition from 15 mods where literally all classes could give CA (tanks included, which is an important factor cos u always have one) and you had feats in both paragons that made you notice no difference from playing one or another paragon, thats not the case anymore. Marking doesn't give CA anymore, feats are unique to each paragon.
I don't have an issue with ranged classes getting an increase but not to where they over perform a melee class. A ranged class that just stands still doesn't have to move or do any mechanics of the fight shouldn't be presented with what might make them the highest dps group in the game. If they are balanced around what the average melee dps does then having extra ranged damage increases is fine. Until the game mechanics are there that forces the ranged classes to run for their lives 25% to 50% of the time like the Melee classes currently do they should be relegated to lower damage amounts. When they start to add into combat where the mob turns red so that players know to not attack them from range or something similar I don't see why the melee classes should do less damage while having the highest chance to die based on the abilities of the classes being close quarters combat around all of the red circles. The way that they are doing ranged combat mechanics to discourage them is pitiful since it involves having the monsters jump away from the melee combatants and further reduces their damage because they have to chase the monsters. If they had the monsters throw a club that 100% hits the ranged attacker and knocks them down for 3 to 5 seconds that would help to where they could increase the ranged classes damage. Melee is already suffering in damage right now if you look at how each class performs. Those that had their mobility reduced for this mod like the barbarian and fighter aren't able to chase those monsters after they jump to that ranged class. Then you have the fact that everyone has the ability to do melee damage but not everyone can do ranged. When this happens in a group those classes that can't participate in the fights like the dragon turtle when it came out were pushed out of doing the content. You couldn't get into a group for that content as a barbarian/rogue because you were seen as a carry or wasted slot. GF had a hard time getting into the tank slot since it was more skill around tanking as a GF and you didn't buff the damage of the party as much as the OP.
CA has been a HUGE increase to damage in this game so much so that entire builds were around maxing it's damage all the way up to where I saw someone have a 97% increase in damage by pushing CA (several of these builds don't work anymore due to changes). CA gives you 15% damage or did out of the gate for just getting CA. CA works as a damage buff and you get that buff by either getting positional CA on the monster or by abilities that grant everyone CA. Part of the buffing mechanics of classes like CW in previous mods were around giving everyone CA on the monsters which is one of the reasons why you couldn't stack buffers from the same class since you didn't double CA damage. CA has been one of the biggest buffs in the game so saying you didn't know about it doesn't mean that a large group of the the theory crafters who told players how to play didn't include this mechanic into their builds.
The best way for them to increase the ability to change to a CA build would be to increase the stats needed to max it as well as increase amount of damage having CA gives.
Any time they make a change to how damage is done in the game will have a huge ripple effect on all classes. Because some classes will get a lot more capability out of the change while others won't get much of a change. Moving the boundary for CA to 80 feet will have a huge change on how players play the game. This mechanic change would have a huge effect on queues and who is brought into parties and who is discriminated against. Right now CW is the hot commodity in the game and you see people ask specifically for CW's for parties. All of requests for fighter/barbarian/sw etc... you don't see them in game now. The balance between the top dps in the game and the lowest dps in the game needs to be around 3% difference in the end game or so to make everyone wanted. Right now that balance is around 30% which is why you see a LOT less of the lower quality classes in the game right now. My fastest LoMM non CW run is 4 minutes slower than my fastest run which is all CW dps (16:52). Since everyone can finish with any dps that is fine. When they open this next mod and you have dps checks that are supposed to be really hard is where you will start to see the discrimination of classes explode.
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
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therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
I'll bring this up to the rest of the team for discussion/answers!
its actually 15' not 50, this forces ranged classes to play melee.
What's even more weird, if I am not mistaken there is an armour item with 1000 item Level that adds to your CA when you are more than 50' AWAY from your enemy.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,213Arc User
I'll bring this up to the rest of the team for discussion/answers!
its actually 15' not 50, this forces ranged classes to play melee.
What's even more weird, if I am not mistaken there is an armour item with 1000 item Level that adds to your CA when you are more than 50' AWAY from your enemy.
Hmm! This is what this thread is all about if you read the first few posts.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
I don't have an issue with ranged classes getting an increase but not to where they over perform a melee class. A ranged class that just stands still doesn't have to move or do any mechanics of the fight shouldn't be presented with what might make them the highest dps group in the game.
This situation doesn't exist, and that won't change even if CA is reworked to function at range.
It's not as if players are really taking on more risk at melee range. It's amusing watching a "ranged" player run for their life because they decided that being alone in a corner was a great idea when adds find them before they do the main party, and/or they eat a room-wide AoE of some kind. Boss mechanics are generally not confined to immediate the boss' immediate melee range.
With your party is still usually the safest and most efficient place to be, and tweaks to CA won't change that. This is why I'm not saying that they shouldn't "fix" CA; I'm just saying that it doesn't matter much either way. If a player wants to play lone sniper and most likely deal less overall damage while not getting party heals and what buffs there are to be had, they're already paying a fairly steep price for their choice.
I don't have an issue with ranged classes getting an increase but not to where they over perform a melee class. A ranged class that just stands still doesn't have to move or do any mechanics of the fight shouldn't be presented with what might make them the highest dps group in the game.
This situation doesn't exist, and that won't change even if CA is reworked to function at range.
It's not as if players are really taking on more risk at melee range. It's amusing watching a "ranged" player run for their life because they decided that being alone in a corner was a great idea when adds find them before they do the main party, and/or they eat a room-wide AoE of some kind. Boss mechanics are generally not confined to immediate the boss' immediate melee range.
With your party is still usually the safest and most efficient place to be, and tweaks to CA won't change that. This is why I'm not saying that they shouldn't "fix" CA; I'm just saying that it doesn't matter much either way. If a player wants to play lone sniper and most likely deal less overall damage while not getting party heals and what buffs there are to be had, they're already paying a fairly steep price for their choice.
People do take significantly more risk at melee range in boss fights, and in most fights in general. Many examples, but to list a few: Dragon Turtles snapping jaws, Drufi's pbaoe sword swing, Nostura and spreading her curse, Ras Nsi's overhand slash or 270 arc cut that applies partial paralysis, several parts on arcturia fight from getting back to correct corner to not being in melee range of the cocoon, Boreworm spin attack. In many cases, if not most, being well out of melee is the safest place to be.
I don't have an issue with ranged classes getting an increase but not to where they over perform a melee class. A ranged class that just stands still doesn't have to move or do any mechanics of the fight shouldn't be presented with what might make them the highest dps group in the game.
This situation doesn't exist, and that won't change even if CA is reworked to function at range.
It's not as if players are really taking on more risk at melee range. It's amusing watching a "ranged" player run for their life because they decided that being alone in a corner was a great idea when adds find them before they do the main party, and/or they eat a room-wide AoE of some kind. Boss mechanics are generally not confined to immediate the boss' immediate melee range.
With your party is still usually the safest and most efficient place to be, and tweaks to CA won't change that. This is why I'm not saying that they shouldn't "fix" CA; I'm just saying that it doesn't matter much either way. If a player wants to play lone sniper and most likely deal less overall damage while not getting party heals and what buffs there are to be had, they're already paying a fairly steep price for their choice.
People do take significantly more risk at melee range in boss fights, and in most fights in general. Many examples, but to list a few: Dragon Turtles snapping jaws, Drufi's pbaoe sword swing, Nostura and spreading her curse, Ras Nsi's overhand slash or 270 arc cut that applies partial paralysis, several parts on arcturia fight from getting back to correct corner to not being in melee range of the cocoon, Boreworm spin attack. In many cases, if not most, being well out of melee is the safest place to be.
Dragon Turtle's snapping jaws don't deal enough damage to be a concern.
Nostura's curse doesn't require that people hang out at the ends of the arena, just that they don't stand on top of each other.
Ras Nsi's overhand slash should be going in the tank's direction, and no one should be hugging the tank. The arc attack is used only a few times during the fight (depending on how long it takes to kill him), and standing way back just to avoid it is a little excessive.
Cocoon in Arcturia is whatever as long as the cocooned person isn't allowed to die. Having ranged powers is definitely convenient in the Arcturia fight, but deliberately camping out away from everyone else is not necessary.
Boreworm spin attack is whatever. You can slip/dodge/teleport and not even be touched by it.
If we want to cite boss examples, let's not forget Trobriand's adds (a potential aggro and incoming damage issue for a party that isn't tightly controlling the add progression and/or for a tank that isn't bothering with the Scaladars), the AoEs that go off in Strahd's room, Orcus' melee-appearing-but-actually-ranged smite, Withers' frequent randomly targeted splat AoEs and room-wide damage effects, and so on.
Yes, you can avoid some things by hiding in the way back, but you're losing overall damage and are the last person to be healed if you're hit by something unavoidable or make a mistake. The pros of being a wallflower are far outweighed by the cons, and a change to CA won't affect that.
I don't have an issue with ranged classes getting an increase but not to where they over perform a melee class. A ranged class that just stands still doesn't have to move or do any mechanics of the fight shouldn't be presented with what might make them the highest dps group in the game.
This situation doesn't exist, and that won't change even if CA is reworked to function at range.
It's not as if players are really taking on more risk at melee range. It's amusing watching a "ranged" player run for their life because they decided that being alone in a corner was a great idea when adds find them before they do the main party, and/or they eat a room-wide AoE of some kind. Boss mechanics are generally not confined to immediate the boss' immediate melee range.
With your party is still usually the safest and most efficient place to be, and tweaks to CA won't change that. This is why I'm not saying that they shouldn't "fix" CA; I'm just saying that it doesn't matter much either way. If a player wants to play lone sniper and most likely deal less overall damage while not getting party heals and what buffs there are to be had, they're already paying a fairly steep price for their choice.
The hypothetical is that giving CA to ranged could make them the best dps in the game. If that did make them the best we then have melee only classes which could see their desire to play the game go down tremendously. Your example of a ranged lone sniper also includes the mobs having to run over to them. They have time to do something in the mean while before they get to them. You also have tanks that are supposed to keep aggro on monsters. If they can keep it then having the highest dps group that doesn't have to stop their attacking like melee gives a clear cut advantage to them.
As to the fact you can't see the red circles and attacks around the monsters I guess that is just because of all of the classes in your signature you only have a tank that is melee and the rest of the classes can be played in range. Warlock, Ranger, Wizard, Cleric, Paladin... Wonder what it would be like to give 4 of your classes major boosts to ranged damage. Wonder how many barbs, fighters and rogues would be left in the game if that happened.
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
I don't have an issue with ranged classes getting an increase but not to where they over perform a melee class. A ranged class that just stands still doesn't have to move or do any mechanics of the fight shouldn't be presented with what might make them the highest dps group in the game.
This situation doesn't exist, and that won't change even if CA is reworked to function at range.
It's not as if players are really taking on more risk at melee range. It's amusing watching a "ranged" player run for their life because they decided that being alone in a corner was a great idea when adds find them before they do the main party, and/or they eat a room-wide AoE of some kind. Boss mechanics are generally not confined to immediate the boss' immediate melee range.
With your party is still usually the safest and most efficient place to be, and tweaks to CA won't change that. This is why I'm not saying that they shouldn't "fix" CA; I'm just saying that it doesn't matter much either way. If a player wants to play lone sniper and most likely deal less overall damage while not getting party heals and what buffs there are to be had, they're already paying a fairly steep price for their choice.
The hypothetical is that giving CA to ranged could make them the best dps in the game. If that did make them the best we then have melee only classes which could see their desire to play the game go down tremendously. Your example of a ranged lone sniper also includes the mobs having to run over to them. They have time to do something in the mean while before they get to them. You also have tanks that are supposed to keep aggro on monsters. If they can keep it then having the highest dps group that doesn't have to stop their attacking like melee gives a clear cut advantage to them.
As to the fact you can't see the red circles and attacks around the monsters I guess that is just because of all of the classes in your signature you only have a tank that is melee and the rest of the classes can be played in range. Warlock, Ranger, Wizard, Cleric, Paladin... Wonder what it would be like to give 4 of your classes major boosts to ranged damage. Wonder how many barbs, fighters and rogues would be left in the game if that happened.
I'm not sure that you're understanding my point.
My main point is that ALL classes are best played at close range to their targets. Personally I don't care if CA range is extended or not, because I see no reason to hang out far away. Note how I refer to "ranged players," not "ranged classes."
The majority of strong DPS understand this already and are accustomed to staying close to maximize their effectiveness.
Kiting trash mobs is an inefficient strategy, and parties will quickly move on from long-range players who are yanking mobs away from their focused AoE and their tank.
How and why are you assuming that I don't notice red circles and whatnot? Whatever direction you're trying to take this, just...no.
Finally, if you read my comments carefully, including this post, you should understand that I don't see increasing the max range of CA as being impactful one way or the other to the current state of the game. It certainly won't change the way I play.
I don't have an issue with ranged classes getting an increase but not to where they over perform a melee class. A ranged class that just stands still doesn't have to move or do any mechanics of the fight shouldn't be presented with what might make them the highest dps group in the game.
This situation doesn't exist, and that won't change even if CA is reworked to function at range.
It's not as if players are really taking on more risk at melee range. It's amusing watching a "ranged" player run for their life because they decided that being alone in a corner was a great idea when adds find them before they do the main party, and/or they eat a room-wide AoE of some kind. Boss mechanics are generally not confined to immediate the boss' immediate melee range.
With your party is still usually the safest and most efficient place to be, and tweaks to CA won't change that. This is why I'm not saying that they shouldn't "fix" CA; I'm just saying that it doesn't matter much either way. If a player wants to play lone sniper and most likely deal less overall damage while not getting party heals and what buffs there are to be had, they're already paying a fairly steep price for their choice.
The hypothetical is that giving CA to ranged could make them the best dps in the game. If that did make them the best we then have melee only classes which could see their desire to play the game go down tremendously. Your example of a ranged lone sniper also includes the mobs having to run over to them. They have time to do something in the mean while before they get to them. You also have tanks that are supposed to keep aggro on monsters. If they can keep it then having the highest dps group that doesn't have to stop their attacking like melee gives a clear cut advantage to them.
As to the fact you can't see the red circles and attacks around the monsters I guess that is just because of all of the classes in your signature you only have a tank that is melee and the rest of the classes can be played in range. Warlock, Ranger, Wizard, Cleric, Paladin... Wonder what it would be like to give 4 of your classes major boosts to ranged damage. Wonder how many barbs, fighters and rogues would be left in the game if that happened.
I'm not sure that you're understanding my point.
My main point is that ALL classes are best played at close range to their targets. Personally I don't care if CA range is extended or not, because I see no reason to hang out far away. Note how I refer to "ranged players," not "ranged classes."
The majority of strong DPS understand this already and are accustomed to staying close to maximize their effectiveness.
Kiting trash mobs is an inefficient strategy, and parties will quickly move on from long-range players who are yanking mobs away from their focused AoE and their tank.
How and why are you assuming that I don't notice red circles and whatnot? Whatever direction you're trying to take this, just...no.
Finally, if you read my comments carefully, including this post, you should understand that I don't see increasing the max range of CA as being impactful one way or the other to the current state of the game. It certainly won't change the way I play.
This is a HUGE change and doesn't effect all classes equally. The fact you don't see giving a very large % of damage an issue let me put it into a different set of terms. What if they came out and changed all of the gear to where we gave any class 3% more damage gear for everyone but it also said "if your of class X you do 15% more damage". I'm pretty sure most would have an issue with this change. That is the same thing going on here. It just doesn't say class X and essentially says if your ranged you do a huge % more damage.
Having all classes balanced is what makes all classes capable of being played in end game content. This is the number 1 factor, above all else that gets players into content. This is a really big issue for me since I started playing a class that would get auto kicked from content because the balance of classes had it at the bottom and not just by a little bit (TR was too good at PvP they nerfed them out of being useful in PvE). I have played 4 different classes all of which have been nerfed to nothing within 2 mods of me moving to them. Hence the reason that I don't want to see a full on re-balance again because they need to improve some classes due to how imbalanced we are right now before we get to changing around combat in the game. The classes seem to be more balanced around the attack dummies instead of real combat. This is why your seeing barbarians leave the game or move classes since their damage was coming from the ability to stay next to the monsters. Removing their movement speed was a huge reduction in damage that you can't see at the test dummies. Same with fighters and ITF.
You made a comment that makes it seem that you believe that the same amount of damage effects you have to move away from exist in ranged combat as melee combat. This is pretty much a VERY absurd comment because there is so much more melee attacks from monsters in the game than ranged attacks. Anyone saying this either doesn't play the game or is trying to get a rise out of the other person. You might as well as just said armor pen is useless in the game and won't help you at all.
The reason players grouped up close is because of the buffs that players gave to each other that had a short range. A player could lose 200% damage just by being away from the party. Without buffs the need to stay close to each other has almost gone away except for the fact that one major buff called CA is still only for melee range. If they move that to max range then where a player stands then buffs from artifacts and a very few other sources are the only reason to be next to each other. With this change the only reason to group up would be damage effects that require it and healing effect range.
The reason that HR's have low ranged damage right now is due to PvP. The ranger has been so good in PvP and used to be where 1 rotation of them killed a player unless they used some type of reflect and damage mitigation.
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
This is a HUGE change and doesn't effect all classes equally. The fact you don't see giving a very large % of damage an issue let me put it into a different set of terms.
Putting on the brakes right here. You speak as if the change to CA some players are asking for is giving away a ton of damage for free that isn't already perfectly available to everyone. Any player who is dealing great damage already is doing so in large part by leveraging combat advantage, regardless of class. Good Wizards, Warlocks, Arbiters etc. are already getting CA. The only class that consistently gets CA regardless of positioning right now is Warlock while having NPNM slotted; every other class in the game needs to be sufficiently close to the target to enjoy CA uptime.
You vastly overstate the risks of being close to enemies and are selling short the advantages of staying closer together as a group. Even with the buff meta gone, there are compelling reasons to stay within reasonably close range and very few reasons not to do so.
If they do change CA at some point, the only appreciable difference will be that bad DPS who camp out away from the party will do more damage, but not as much as those who are better positioned. As discussed earlier, they will also be completely at the mercy of the tank's chosen positioning and have to spend a lot more time adjusting if they lose CA and are forced to fix it on their end. Staying within 20' is just so much easier on yourself and everyone else.
Comments
If ranged do not get CA past 20 feet and play out past 20 feet then there is no need to put any points into CA at all and just stack power in its place or improve on other stats.
Melee have to allot a lot of points into CA to get anything out of it so they really have to pay for the extra damage.
I always wondered about it but never thought any action would be taken. TYVM.
It is logical to have CA at range.
Ranged DPS will be very happy.
Melee DPS... rage incoming I think.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
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It's a bit scary to think about the gap between the players who know mechanics of the game in comparison to those who don't, as both can equally influence further development of the game. It's like that one person who told everywhere that GWF should do more damage than GF, because he is "great". An actual attempt at an argument. Well, now he's called "barbie" I guess it's time to get a doll house. Jk jk
But I get what's causing all the confusion with CA bonus...
- People started using Augments that are not combat pets, ergo no CA bonus based on positioning
- On top of never paying attention to actual game mechanics cause there is no way you can tell me that you never saw the little blue-tinted circular bar on enemy
- On top of not having CA bonuses given by Renegade CWs or TRs smoke bomb or whatever else, which most took for granted
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Melee classes already have more dmg per hit ratio in comparison to other classes.
Let's get one thing clear, ALL classes have CA bonus. This is not class-bound nor class-restrictive to anyone. You can't take more CA benefit than any other class. This is a fundamental mechanic that worked for over five years now.
If you can get more CA by being at melee range, that doesn't mean anything because any ranged class can come up close and attack mobs. I do it all the time, nothing stops anyone else to do so, too.
Now, you say guys how melee classes will lack in comparison. That's untrue!
1. Ranged classes have their base weapon damage internally reduced in comparison to all other melee classes, bar HR and TR who have it split in two pieces of the equipment.
2. Furthermore, I can't recall a single actual power of ranged classes which has more Magnitude than other melee classes circa MOD16.
As you can see, melee classes already have an upper hand, and by a quite a lot.
I do suggest learning the mechanics first and getting to a reasonable state of the game before calling for buffs or nerfs.
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However you look at it, all ranged classes since game's inception had the ability to do CA based damage. Just because you miraculously found out that CA exists and is represented as a blue circle after long 5 years of NWO's existence, that doesn't mean that this feature is either bugged or meant to be used only by melee classes. I've seen a video online that states how CA is bugged because it activates whilst flanking. Pure ignorance in my opinion. Learn the mechanics, learn the history of the mechanic, visit a wiki site maybe? I dunno...
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I refuse to acknowledge that in this day and age people don't know what CA is. It is troubling. I understand that new players might not get it, but I don't know... don't know...
I think that this is a nice wake-up call to all people who never pay attention and this is a perfect proof that shows just how easy and void previous mods were since not that many players were paying enough attention to the game's actual mechanics at hand. And CA bonus is the bare minimum I expect that any DPSer know. A reason more to like MOD16.
If it was up to me, I'd never change a single thing and I'd tell to people to learn, finally, how to position themselves in order to get CA bonus.
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After people get in tune with the mechanics of CA, then change it if you will. Increasing CA flanking bonus to 80ft (which is a lot) sounds only logical to be honest.
Having 80ft range sounds super sweet, but at that range visibility of the blue square will almost be nonexistent, so navigation should be done based on the position of an ally in the party. In my opinion at that stage all features which provide CA bonus should be gone forever.
Having CA at 80ft in no way benefits ranged classes more, it simply allows them to have more strategy and makes the game for what it was originally intended for. For people who use +% rings, such as the Ring of the Shadowstalker, they still need to be close to the enemy.
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However, as a Wizard I always had to let go of items which give bonus damage at range for the sake of CA bonus. This made my gameplay limiting and I agree that it never felt like ranged classes get enough love from developers due to that reason alone. It also made all other rings that give bonus at a range rather unsettling to use. I speak about rings like Ring of the Spellflinger +5
This ring was giving +2.5% damage if you stand 50' or more from enemy. However, it came with two defense slots. I'm sure it had some potential uses, for instance pvp, but it never was used and it's such a wasted opportunity at creating a more dynamic gameplay in PvE.
It's nice to have things that allow a more dynamic gameplay, but in my opinion people already got used to a close-ranged fighting system. Virtually all ranged classes have to go into the center of the fight to do more damage, and not just because of the CA, but because of the powers. If nothing changes, it wouldn't be the most terrible idea, but items which grant bonus at a range should simply be "giving bonus to powers" or "attacks".
It's a mess I must say, but a mess that can be organized easily to make it worthwhile for both developers and players alike.
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Or, simply, make a ring that gives CA bonus to the player at all times or for a period of time. It can inherit the "Nightmare Wizardry" feat power. It can be called "Divine perception". This in case people insist to be superlazy and not take the very basic of mechanics into the account. I give up.
Regards
Ranged class damage would be very close to what the melee classes would do with the change to CA proposed. This means that a ranged class now does the same damage per attack that a melee class does without having to re-position, move away, chase down their targets. They would get to continue to attack close to 100% of the time where a melee class is re-positioning 30% to 60% of the fight. With this change would ranged classes be happy with a say 30% cut in their damage off the top because they are getting CA at range?
Right now one of the biggest reasons that the barbarian and fighter are on the low end of dps scale is their need to be in range of the monsters to do their damage. If you give the ranged classes such large advantage to damage making them equals you would also have to add into the game stuns/immobilization effects/knock downs to make the ranged classes stop attacking for large periods of the fight to equal out the damage. This would have to be done not just in the current end game dungeon but all prior content to balance it. When FBI came out how did barb/rogue get through it since everyone stated you needed ranged classes to do it? Are we forgetting that people in game essentially told everyone to stop bringing those classes into content with several of the youtubers of the day making videos to not bring melee classes. Until they implement where you can change your character to the class of the mod they shouldn't be making content that is beneficial to one class type. This mod suffers from the melee classes doing low amounts of damage. We don't need to add into the game a larger gap for those classes. The only class that I think would need the extra damage is the warlock right now. Giving the CW more damage when they need to look at either bringing them more in line with other dps classes or bringing up the other classes to them is really where we are at right now.
Since I believe they killed off some abilities for classes to balance them they really need to look at updating tool tips to reflect what is in place now. Making all of those tool tips active will just unbalance the game. Having played almost all of the classes in end game the last 4 mods I will say that this mod has probably the biggest imbalance of classes in the game I have seen. While I think that may be due to them trying to sell things the class balance in previous mods was harder to judge due to buffs and combinations of buffs applied at different times. In Mod 14 I watched every class be able to one rotate the final boss of the hardest content. In Mod 15 I watch every dps class be able to 2 rotate the final boss in all content with only 1 class able to one rotate them on a lucky crit. In this mod 3 dps classes are very powerful in the TR/CW/HR classes and the SW/Barb/Fighter/Cleric classes are on the low end of the dps pool. So much is the difference that you have people who are main class players for CW/TR/HR asking for content to be harder and low end classes struggling to kill mimics at 130k power because they need to crit to be able to get the kill on the second mimic.
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
It's much more difficult to adjust to changes in target positioning from halfway across the room than it is when you're directly behind the enemy, and not every boss in the game is content to stand in one spot and obligingly face the tank for extended periods of time. If a Wizard is pew-pewing from the back lines and the boss makes a sharp turn to execute a mechanic, because aggro has shifted, because it has a partly random action table, or for whatever other reason, that ranged Wizard has much farther to go to reposition for CA than everyone else who was hugging the target's behind and can adjust by scooting little in either direction.
Not to mention that, while group buffing is much more minimal since M16, when the party is positioned closer together you can take better advantage of bonuses like the Wyvern set +%damage splat upon daily use, the Staff of Flowers artifact power, and so on. Hanging out at range without a good reason doesn't make sense, improved CA or no.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
> Regardless of whether or not they get around to increasing the effective range of Combat Advantage, melee range is likely to continue to provide optimal damage for all classes.
>
> It's much more difficult to adjust to changes in target positioning from halfway across the room than it is when you're directly behind the enemy, and not every boss in the game is content to stand in one spot and obligingly face the tank for extended periods of time. If a Wizard is pew-pewing from the back lines and the boss makes a sharp turn to execute a mechanic, because aggro has shifted, because it has a partly random action table, or for whatever other reason, that ranged Wizard has much farther to go to reposition for CA than everyone else who was hugging the target's behind and can adjust by scooting little in either direction.
>
> Not to mention that, while group buffing is much more minimal since M16, when the party is positioned closer together you can take better advantage of bonuses like the Wyvern set +%damage splat upon daily use, the Staff of Flowers artifact power, and so on. Hanging out at range without a good reason doesn't make sense, improved CA or no.
>
> It would become super simple since the adjust of CA would be on the tank and you would have 1 tank on one side of the mobs and the ranged on the other side. The tank just needs to stay alive and give everyone else CA.
It doesn’t always work this smoothly. Bosses that teleport, have semi-random aggro tables, or otherwise change their positioning in ways the tank can’t control throw a wrench in this strategy.
Sometimes there is no difference, and sometimes the tank can’t easily move be to where it would be best for the party.
Still makes no sense to deliberately stand at range when it’s easier and more beneficial for several reasons to stay close.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
They would have to put in mechanics into all parts of the game that would make range classes stop fighting for parts of fights as melee classes wouldn't be good in fights. We would have to see mechanics like shields that reflect ranged attacks and one shot kills to range abilities used at specific times in fights to stop everyone from just playing their ranged characters.
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
Also, ranged powers are currently not that effective in comparison to the melee ones.
Basically, you are wrong since ranged classes do need to re-position in order to get CA bonus. Range doesn't matter, what matters is positioning.
Frankly, I do not see the reason why would anyone argue against Ranged classes finally getting a combat advantage buff for being at range whilst flanking.
Ranged classes had this before with skills that activate for everyone. They were just called "Renegade Wizards" or "MOFs" who were chosen as debuffers in a team. One was enough because why you'd need 2x Nightmare Wizardry?
One was enough even for places like Tiamat or EDemo.
What I'm saying is - nothing changes from how it was before. It's only getting fixed. This can't serve as a jumping board for increasing melee damage as it was never WAI for melee classes to be the only ones with CA bonus.
CA has been working this way at least since mod 8 and on. If it worked that way from Mod 3 to mod 7 then I am not sure it is a good reason to go back to it.
I agree this will help the ranger and warlock classes which the archer part is quite lackluster. The best classes after this change would be the warlock, wizard, cleric and ranger. The wizard is already over performing at this stage and needs no more help. I don't know what other classes would be brought in queues with that type of power up to the best dps class right now.
In regards to CA positioning you have a healer and tank class that can move into any position and focus on their role of healing/tanking/giving CA. The way that geometry works and positioning works the area you need to be in for CA at range is MUCH larger than the area you need to be in right next to the monsters. This means that getting CA to ranged is easier than when you are closer to the target. You also don't have anywhere near as much to disrupt ranged combatants compared to melee.
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
As for the comments about ranged advantage or melee advantage or whether only pros play as melee/mid range, well that has nothing to do, cos lets take tr and barbies for example, they have mechannics that will keep them alive for long even at melee. They dint just wake up and decide to make barbies have a sentinel paragon, its because they have always been tanky. Trs have their stealth and have features that give them more deflect, movement speed over other classes, Hr can be both but they pretty much in the same boat, they have better movement than other classes.
Giving up combat advantage for power? that would be a brilliant idea if you could chose the stats you want on a gear, which is not the case here, so with the gear you have at your disposal, you can only stack about a certain amount of power, while still having 100k+ CA just sitting there. In a game where bosses have 1 shots mechanic, asking ranged classes to take the hit to the face is pretty dope. If strategy was really a thing in this game, with certain mechanics, dpses shouldn't have to be in the same range as the tank, thats why they are tanks, and even worse when the tank loses aggro randomly. Secondly, the hitbox in this game knows no such thing as "range", if a boss wants to punch you, they will teleport there and still punch you.
There shouldn't even be an argument here about whether or not there should be a range increase, the max range in the game for almost all powers is 80, that should be the base for CA, doesn't matter whether you want to play at melee or range, as long as you can hit with ur power, and well positioned, you should have CA. I cant see any advantages this is giving to ranged classes. Just like the shadowstalker which is definitely meant for melee classes, there is also a ring with the same function for ranged classes when at 50ft or further (yes i know it has defense slots instead, but thats not the point). They have items in the game that will only give you their bonuses when outside 15ft, that should be enough.
I personally never worried about CA, only noticed it wasn't working in a certain mod when soloing, but again, there was a transition from 15 mods where literally all classes could give CA (tanks included, which is an important factor cos u always have one) and you had feats in both paragons that made you notice no difference from playing one or another paragon, thats not the case anymore. Marking doesn't give CA anymore, feats are unique to each paragon.
CA has been a HUGE increase to damage in this game so much so that entire builds were around maxing it's damage all the way up to where I saw someone have a 97% increase in damage by pushing CA (several of these builds don't work anymore due to changes). CA gives you 15% damage or did out of the gate for just getting CA. CA works as a damage buff and you get that buff by either getting positional CA on the monster or by abilities that grant everyone CA. Part of the buffing mechanics of classes like CW in previous mods were around giving everyone CA on the monsters which is one of the reasons why you couldn't stack buffers from the same class since you didn't double CA damage. CA has been one of the biggest buffs in the game so saying you didn't know about it doesn't mean that a large group of the the theory crafters who told players how to play didn't include this mechanic into their builds.
The best way for them to increase the ability to change to a CA build would be to increase the stats needed to max it as well as increase amount of damage having CA gives.
Any time they make a change to how damage is done in the game will have a huge ripple effect on all classes. Because some classes will get a lot more capability out of the change while others won't get much of a change. Moving the boundary for CA to 80 feet will have a huge change on how players play the game. This mechanic change would have a huge effect on queues and who is brought into parties and who is discriminated against. Right now CW is the hot commodity in the game and you see people ask specifically for CW's for parties. All of requests for fighter/barbarian/sw etc... you don't see them in game now. The balance between the top dps in the game and the lowest dps in the game needs to be around 3% difference in the end game or so to make everyone wanted. Right now that balance is around 30% which is why you see a LOT less of the lower quality classes in the game right now. My fastest LoMM non CW run is 4 minutes slower than my fastest run which is all CW dps (16:52). Since everyone can finish with any dps that is fine. When they open this next mod and you have dps checks that are supposed to be really hard is where you will start to see the discrimination of classes explode.
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
It's not as if players are really taking on more risk at melee range. It's amusing watching a "ranged" player run for their life because they decided that being alone in a corner was a great idea when adds find them before they do the main party, and/or they eat a room-wide AoE of some kind. Boss mechanics are generally not confined to immediate the boss' immediate melee range.
With your party is still usually the safest and most efficient place to be, and tweaks to CA won't change that. This is why I'm not saying that they shouldn't "fix" CA; I'm just saying that it doesn't matter much either way. If a player wants to play lone sniper and most likely deal less overall damage while not getting party heals and what buffs there are to be had, they're already paying a fairly steep price for their choice.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Nostura's curse doesn't require that people hang out at the ends of the arena, just that they don't stand on top of each other.
Ras Nsi's overhand slash should be going in the tank's direction, and no one should be hugging the tank. The arc attack is used only a few times during the fight (depending on how long it takes to kill him), and standing way back just to avoid it is a little excessive.
Cocoon in Arcturia is whatever as long as the cocooned person isn't allowed to die. Having ranged powers is definitely convenient in the Arcturia fight, but deliberately camping out away from everyone else is not necessary.
Boreworm spin attack is whatever. You can slip/dodge/teleport and not even be touched by it.
If we want to cite boss examples, let's not forget Trobriand's adds (a potential aggro and incoming damage issue for a party that isn't tightly controlling the add progression and/or for a tank that isn't bothering with the Scaladars), the AoEs that go off in Strahd's room, Orcus' melee-appearing-but-actually-ranged smite, Withers' frequent randomly targeted splat AoEs and room-wide damage effects, and so on.
Yes, you can avoid some things by hiding in the way back, but you're losing overall damage and are the last person to be healed if you're hit by something unavoidable or make a mistake. The pros of being a wallflower are far outweighed by the cons, and a change to CA won't affect that.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
As to the fact you can't see the red circles and attacks around the monsters I guess that is just because of all of the classes in your signature you only have a tank that is melee and the rest of the classes can be played in range. Warlock, Ranger, Wizard, Cleric, Paladin... Wonder what it would be like to give 4 of your classes major boosts to ranged damage. Wonder how many barbs, fighters and rogues would be left in the game if that happened.
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
My main point is that ALL classes are best played at close range to their targets. Personally I don't care if CA range is extended or not, because I see no reason to hang out far away. Note how I refer to "ranged players," not "ranged classes."
The majority of strong DPS understand this already and are accustomed to staying close to maximize their effectiveness.
Kiting trash mobs is an inefficient strategy, and parties will quickly move on from long-range players who are yanking mobs away from their focused AoE and their tank.
How and why are you assuming that I don't notice red circles and whatnot? Whatever direction you're trying to take this, just...no.
Finally, if you read my comments carefully, including this post, you should understand that I don't see increasing the max range of CA as being impactful one way or the other to the current state of the game. It certainly won't change the way I play.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Having all classes balanced is what makes all classes capable of being played in end game content. This is the number 1 factor, above all else that gets players into content. This is a really big issue for me since I started playing a class that would get auto kicked from content because the balance of classes had it at the bottom and not just by a little bit (TR was too good at PvP they nerfed them out of being useful in PvE). I have played 4 different classes all of which have been nerfed to nothing within 2 mods of me moving to them. Hence the reason that I don't want to see a full on re-balance again because they need to improve some classes due to how imbalanced we are right now before we get to changing around combat in the game. The classes seem to be more balanced around the attack dummies instead of real combat. This is why your seeing barbarians leave the game or move classes since their damage was coming from the ability to stay next to the monsters. Removing their movement speed was a huge reduction in damage that you can't see at the test dummies. Same with fighters and ITF.
You made a comment that makes it seem that you believe that the same amount of damage effects you have to move away from exist in ranged combat as melee combat. This is pretty much a VERY absurd comment because there is so much more melee attacks from monsters in the game than ranged attacks. Anyone saying this either doesn't play the game or is trying to get a rise out of the other person. You might as well as just said armor pen is useless in the game and won't help you at all.
The reason players grouped up close is because of the buffs that players gave to each other that had a short range. A player could lose 200% damage just by being away from the party. Without buffs the need to stay close to each other has almost gone away except for the fact that one major buff called CA is still only for melee range. If they move that to max range then where a player stands then buffs from artifacts and a very few other sources are the only reason to be next to each other. With this change the only reason to group up would be damage effects that require it and healing effect range.
The reason that HR's have low ranged damage right now is due to PvP. The ranger has been so good in PvP and used to be where 1 rotation of them killed a player unless they used some type of reflect and damage mitigation.
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
You vastly overstate the risks of being close to enemies and are selling short the advantages of staying closer together as a group. Even with the buff meta gone, there are compelling reasons to stay within reasonably close range and very few reasons not to do so.
If they do change CA at some point, the only appreciable difference will be that bad DPS who camp out away from the party will do more damage, but not as much as those who are better positioned. As discussed earlier, they will also be completely at the mercy of the tank's chosen positioning and have to spend a lot more time adjusting if they lose CA and are forced to fix it on their end. Staying within 20' is just so much easier on yourself and everyone else.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH