Game Content is now too easy

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  • tom#6998
    tom#6998 Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    kangkeok said:

    I think the big question is:
    ¿Do we want to every player be able to beat every content in the game?

    or we can ask in other way:
    ¿Do the devs want to every player be able to beat every content in the game?

    The answer to this is easy:
    The option that makes players spend more money in the game.

    I think that having harder dungeons than we have now, make players spend more money but I could be wrong, I dont have the data.

    Back in the first days of the game, CN was a mith to me, but I wasnt frustrated about that. I worked in other dungeons (normal and then epic) and character to get enough power and skill to be able to do first boss in CN. Then second boss. Then 1000 fails in dracolich.

    After entering a good guild I could finish CN for the first time, learned lots of things from better players and then everything was more easy, the game released more content, and CN was a farming routine, having new harder dungeons.

    And that was a nice experience, character and progress in the game, desire for improvement and fun.

    If when I started playing neverwinter the game was as easy as is now, I am sure I would quit in the first month of the game. Maybe not everyone likes this kind of gameplay wheere you need to work to be better.

    Is just an opinion, I respect all the positions made here but for me one of the things that made this game fall is the trivialize of the content we had until mod 16.

    Actually if u start a new character in mod 16, without any help from your main character, its not as easy as u think. Being a newbie these in mod16 is very different compare to the past.

    First, your damage is double mitigated by enemy defend and deflect. We used to only need to work on arpen which scale like 1% for 250 stat? Nowadays its 1% to 1k stat. On top of that newbie these days need to deal with accuracy aswell. U can imagine how low their effectiveness gonna be in the content especially RIQ without a higher ilvl to carry. Furthermore being a lvl80 further gimp their stat in RIQ too.

    Second, their AD gain. Its no longer the same as in the past where we could salvage purple stuff for AD. These days newbie earning are limited to leveling que 1k RAD per run and RIQ 2k RAD per run. With ME and daily bonus, they earn around 40-50k Rad. The rest is farming RIQ at 2k RAD per run.

    So I wouldn't say content is easy for low ilvl. In fact they are harder due to the nature of how their stat and dungeon scale. They could only rely on higher ilevel to carry them through the content. If u put only 14-15k in prophecy of madness, its gonna be party wipe after party wipe.
    well about the AD gain, they still get AD out of each dungeon chest, but you are rights its less then it was some mods ago.
  • darthpotater
    darthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,156 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    kangkeok said:


    Actually if u start a new character in mod 16, without any help from your main character, its not as easy as u think. Being a newbie these in mod16 is very different compare to the past.

    First, your damage is double mitigated by enemy defend and deflect. We used to only need to work on arpen which scale like 1% for 250 stat? Nowadays its 1% to 1k stat. On top of that newbie these days need to deal with accuracy aswell. U can imagine how low their effectiveness gonna be in the content especially RIQ without a higher ilvl to carry. Furthermore being a lvl80 further gimp their stat in RIQ too.

    Second, their AD gain. Its no longer the same as in the past where we could salvage purple stuff for AD. These days newbie earning are limited to leveling que 1k RAD per run and RIQ 2k RAD per run. With ME and daily bonus, they earn around 40-50k Rad. The rest is farming RIQ at 2k RAD per run.

    So I wouldn't say content is easy for low ilvl. In fact they are harder due to the nature of how their stat and dungeon scale. They could only rely on higher ilevel to carry them through the content. If u put only 14-15k in prophecy of madness, its gonna be party wipe after party wipe.

    I didnt level a character since long time ago, but I help a lot of low level player to progress.

    If I am not wrong, (just talking about what I hear here and there) leveling to 70 is still very easy, and then you get enough equip and rank 8s to get to 80 (easy too).

    Once you are level 80, you start doing ME and you get end game gear. You can work on boons (easy) and raise your IL while doing low level dungeons.

    Upgrading enchants to rank 9-10 or buy them is very cheap, and I didnt make the calcs but at this point (with a basic augment and few cheap compainons) you are in the 20k range. (correct me if I am wrong)

    I am not telling that once you are 20k you can do everything in the game, but meeting the requisites to the hardest dungeon in the game in 15 days of gameplay seems a bit well.... easy.

    Then you can start building your character better and farming everything you can (events for example) and if you know what to do and what is the best return for investment, you can progress faster.

    Not talking about if you have good friends that can help you farming LoMM (yesterday I played with 2 guys with 20k and we did the dungeon).

    So, if all of this is true, the game is very easy.

    The problem I see, is that most players have no clue about what to do, or what is the most effective way to improve their character. As you say, they have armor pen or accuracy problems but that is because they dont know (or they dont care) about the game mechanics.

    You need to ask and search for the information, there is a lot of info in the web.
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  • kangkeok
    kangkeok Member Posts: 1,123 Arc User
    edited July 2019

    kangkeok said:


    Actually if u start a new character in mod 16, without any help from your main character, its not as easy as u think. Being a newbie these in mod16 is very different compare to the past.

    First, your damage is double mitigated by enemy defend and deflect. We used to only need to work on arpen which scale like 1% for 250 stat? Nowadays its 1% to 1k stat. On top of that newbie these days need to deal with accuracy aswell. U can imagine how low their effectiveness gonna be in the content especially RIQ without a higher ilvl to carry. Furthermore being a lvl80 further gimp their stat in RIQ too.

    Second, their AD gain. Its no longer the same as in the past where we could salvage purple stuff for AD. These days newbie earning are limited to leveling que 1k RAD per run and RIQ 2k RAD per run. With ME and daily bonus, they earn around 40-50k Rad. The rest is farming RIQ at 2k RAD per run.

    So I wouldn't say content is easy for low ilvl. In fact they are harder due to the nature of how their stat and dungeon scale. They could only rely on higher ilevel to carry them through the content. If u put only 14-15k in prophecy of madness, its gonna be party wipe after party wipe.

    I didnt level a character since long time ago, but I help a lot of low level player to progress.

    If I am not wrong, (just talking about what I hear here and there) leveling to 70 is still very easy, and then you get enough equip and rank 8s to get to 80 (easy too).

    Once you are level 80, you start doing ME and you get end game gear. You can work on boons (easy) and raise your IL while doing low level dungeons.

    Upgrading enchants to rank 9-10 or buy them is very cheap, and I didnt make the calcs but at this point (with a basic augment and few cheap compainons) you are in the 20k range. (correct me if I am wrong)

    I am not telling that once you are 20k you can do everything in the game, but meeting the requisites to the hardest dungeon in the game in 15 days of gameplay seems a bit well.... easy.

    Then you can start building your character better and farming everything you can (events for example) and if you know what to do and what is the best return for investment, you can progress faster.

    Not talking about if you have good friends that can help you farming LoMM (yesterday I played with 2 guys with 20k and we did the dungeon).

    So, if all of this is true, the game is very easy.

    The problem I see, is that most players have no clue about what to do, or what is the most effective way to improve their character. As you say, they have armor pen or accuracy problems but that is because they dont know (or they dont care) about the game mechanics.

    You need to ask and search for the information, there is a lot of info in the web.
    I have leveled a new character in a different account during mod 15 and all I can say its hell. The moment u reach lvl70, all u can do to gain AD is by grinding leveling que till u get to 15k ilvl. Its true like tom said i could increase my AD gain by making keys but then i need those resources to unlock my boons. When u get to farm RIQ things get abit easier. My daily AD gain jump from 20k+ to 30k+. Its still a hell.

    Mod 16 might be easier since they lowered the requirement and MEs but still life as a newbie isn't easy. Even though I get to que RAQ now that character is 16k ilvl, its still not easy since most run I need people to carry me. If there is only people between 16k-18k in RAQ, expect a rough ride and abandon instance pop up. I gave up that account since then and I stick with my main.
  • wylonus
    wylonus Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,376 Arc User
    hey, pugs have feelings too.

  • cherryman1
    cherryman1 Member Posts: 345 Arc User
    Having also done the play up your character like a new player to feel the experience it is a very poor feeling indeed. The leveling up part was fine. There are a LOT of things that people in here are taking for granted though. While the 3xME and RLQ are easy to do each day that is still about 1 hour of time to finish those for a new player on average. This gets that daily income of rAD to about 25k a day. Then getting to where you can play RIQ is pretty hard especially if you don't play it with friends. If you don't have someone else who will carry you each day the RIQ experience is the same as the Pre Mod 16 RAQ experience. Those who have been around long enough know all of the people who came here saying they needed to nerf FBI etc... I also did some number crunching and found that just due to how below the stat caps my class was without putting any money into it I was losing about 75% of my damage in a dungeon. How many dungeons would everyone in here fail if they were in a group where everyone in that dungeon had a straight 75% of their damage removed. That is a LOT of lost damage. Unless there is an end game player in the RIQ a good portion of them were failures. On good days that first RIQ was a win but on the bad days the RIQ was a failure for 2 or 3 attempts in a row before I just stopped for that toon on that day. You also have to remember that scaling affects enchants and gear more than companions and mounts. This means that the best way to do well in the randoms is to upgrade the most expensive items that take a long time to accumulate. Those of us who have a good amount of time into the game have taken for granted the fact that we have all of our mounts/companions.

    That is where I am coming from for this expansion since I wanted to experience the new player woes I was hearing about from players who just started the game. I also simulated what it would be like playing the RIQ queue as a new player who played the game for 30/60/90/120 days. I would say that RIQ felt like i was useless at 30 days. I was only a contributing player at 90 days worth of gear and 120 days didn't feel much different than the 90 day build. The way I did this was go into my personal player stash and pulled out some companions/mounts and each 30 days I simulated that I earned 750,000 AD to place on that toon. Most companions were at the time going for 100k AD to 500k AD each and purple mounts were going for about 200k+ AD each at that time.
    Guild Leader: Under the Influence
    Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    chemjeff said:

    LOMM runs take 25 minutes, CR runs take 35 minutes, and CODG takes 10 minutes with a group that understands the mechanics.

    Well here is my experience, as a casual daily player:
    LOMM: 1 hour
    CR: can't be finished
    CODG: fall off platform
    This is the norm when Qing alone or with one or two other people that are part of your preformed group.

    As for a PUG (pick up group); it all depends if the group knows what the mechanics of the dungeon are. I have ran with a PUG from the Yawning portal quite a few times and have yet to fail LoMM. The average completion time vs. running with my guildies or alliance is around 5-10 minutes longer. So typically 45+ minutes vs 30 minutes.

    For those that keep stating PUG and doing REQ, RAQ, etc... those are not PUG groups, that is simply Qing into the content and getting a Q group. A PUG is when you are picked up at the yawning portal for a preform formed group outside of your alliance and friends; that is a PUG group. To many players associate PUG with Q group vs. what PUG actually means.

    I laugh every time I see PUG and than someone says you should do call out and get into a premade group at the Yawning portal, because that would be a PUG vs. joining a Q group.
  • mightyeriksson
    mightyeriksson Member Posts: 842 Arc User

    I agree the game is too easy, they should increase the HP of the new raid boss by at least 50%.

    It didn't look that easy for you guys earlier today, when you failed, and failed, and failed again and again...
    Did you finish it in the end?
    I think you missed the obvious sarcasm in his post, my friend.
    It was mostly in jest, I watched Viral yesterday when he streamed a few attempts, and it looked like they had a rough time...
  • tom#6998
    tom#6998 Member Posts: 952 Arc User

    I agree the game is too easy, they should increase the HP of the new raid boss by at least 50%.

    It didn't look that easy for you guys earlier today, when you failed, and failed, and failed again and again...
    Did you finish it in the end?
    I think you missed the obvious sarcasm in his post, my friend.
    It was mostly in jest, I watched Viral yesterday when he streamed a few attempts, and it looked like they had a rough time...
    we had a rough, but also a great time!
  • cherryman1
    cherryman1 Member Posts: 345 Arc User
    edited July 2019

    chemjeff said:

    LOMM runs take 25 minutes, CR runs take 35 minutes, and CODG takes 10 minutes with a group that understands the mechanics.

    Well here is my experience, as a casual daily player:
    LOMM: 1 hour
    CR: can't be finished
    CODG: fall off platform
    This is the norm when Qing alone or with one or two other people that are part of your preformed group.

    As for a PUG (pick up group); it all depends if the group knows what the mechanics of the dungeon are. I have ran with a PUG from the Yawning portal quite a few times and have yet to fail LoMM. The average completion time vs. running with my guildies or alliance is around 5-10 minutes longer. So typically 45+ minutes vs 30 minutes.

    For those that keep stating PUG and doing REQ, RAQ, etc... those are not PUG groups, that is simply Qing into the content and getting a Q group. A PUG is when you are picked up at the yawning portal for a preform formed group outside of your alliance and friends; that is a PUG group. To many players associate PUG with Q group vs. what PUG actually means.

    I laugh every time I see PUG and than someone says you should do call out and get into a premade group at the Yawning portal, because that would be a PUG vs. joining a Q group.
    People use PUG to mean both of the things you described. Your going to find it difficult to set what things mean. I usually will talk a little bit with the person to figure out which way they are using that term.
    Guild Leader: Under the Influence
    Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
  • lantern22
    lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,110 Arc User
    kangkeok said:

    Second, their AD gain. Its no longer the same as in the past where we could salvage purple stuff for AD. These days newbie earning are limited to leveling que 1k RAD per run and RIQ 2k RAD per run. With ME and daily bonus, they earn around 40-50k Rad. The rest is farming RIQ at 2k RAD per run.

    So I wouldn't say content is easy for low ilvl. In fact they are harder due to the nature of how their stat and dungeon scale. They could only rely on higher ilevel to carry them through the content. If u put only 14-15k in prophecy of madness, its gonna be party wipe after party wipe.

    Starting off a new character back then wasn't easy either, and in fact having a geared character that isn't in a R20 guild isn't that easy either. But now ppl seem to QQ if they can't get to finish the latest dungeon NOW and sook if they have to work for it.

    Whilst AD gain might be lower, cost to gear up is also lower. R11 Azure is now under 100K back then it was up around 800K. You can get R14 Black Ice enchants now for 730K they used to be over 2 mil. RP is dirt cheap - a stack of emeralds used to be 40-70k now they are 17k, black pearls were 20k+ now 4K. The only thing that is more expensive is Wards and you don't need too many of those to get to around 20K mark. easier

    Stats on gear that you get from MEs is now massive - easier.

    20K toon can run MEs - (24K per day if you take the time to get Chaos runes), RLQ - 12K (with 50% AD bonus) and RIQ 18K with bonus. Thats around 50K without any drops (I got a 300K AH drop in the RLQ yesterday). So that's a R11 enchant every second day, that is much faster than it took me to get R11s a few years ago, much faster. easier

    and random advanced Q's aren't easy for anyone if you solo Q and the other ppl don't know what they are doing.

    The bosses in FBI are so easy now its a joke, taking the stacks off the turtle just gimped it beyond belief . . . could go on but meh . . .

    please go back to normal and epic versions of the dungeons so both groups can be happy

  • mightyeriksson
    mightyeriksson Member Posts: 842 Arc User
    tom#6998 said:

    I agree the game is too easy, they should increase the HP of the new raid boss by at least 50%.

    It didn't look that easy for you guys earlier today, when you failed, and failed, and failed again and again...
    Did you finish it in the end?
    I think you missed the obvious sarcasm in his post, my friend.
    It was mostly in jest, I watched Viral yesterday when he streamed a few attempts, and it looked like they had a rough time...
    we had a rough, but also a great time!
    Nice, I had to log off before I saw you all take him down, did the trial feel like it was in the right place?
  • katamaster81899
    katamaster81899 Member Posts: 1,157 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:

    micky1p00 said:

    There are several major discords, one for each class at least (2 for DCs) there are Facebook groups for all classes (DC have two) will we ever see chemjeff there?

    Do you have the addresses for these?
    dont waste your time, they are ran by elitist's who care more about meta builds then actually doing something interesting and fun
    Well to be honest I am not very good at using Discord in the first place.
    I hope to god this is a joke. If it's not... wow.

    If you can't figure out how to use Discord.... it's no wonder you're struggling to play DC. This game here might be better suited to your skills. https://www.solitr.com/


    More seriously though, if the devs have stated that this content is for endgame, and meant to be extremely challenging, I think it is realistic to expect that players will need to communicate verbally during the battle in order to complete it successfully.
    Post edited by katamaster81899 on
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  • kangkeok
    kangkeok Member Posts: 1,123 Arc User
    .

    chemjeff said:

    LOMM runs take 25 minutes, CR runs take 35 minutes, and CODG takes 10 minutes with a group that understands the mechanics.

    Well here is my experience, as a casual daily player:
    LOMM: 1 hour
    CR: can't be finished
    CODG: fall off platform
    This is the norm when Qing alone or with one or two other people that are part of your preformed group.

    As for a PUG (pick up group); it all depends if the group knows what the mechanics of the dungeon are. I have ran with a PUG from the Yawning portal quite a few times and have yet to fail LoMM. The average completion time vs. running with my guildies or alliance is around 5-10 minutes longer. So typically 45+ minutes vs 30 minutes.

    For those that keep stating PUG and doing REQ, RAQ, etc... those are not PUG groups, that is simply Qing into the content and getting a Q group. A PUG is when you are picked up at the yawning portal for a preform formed group outside of your alliance and friends; that is a PUG group. To many players associate PUG with Q group vs. what PUG actually means.

    I laugh every time I see PUG and than someone says you should do call out and get into a premade group at the Yawning portal, because that would be a PUG vs. joining a Q group.
    Thanks for your clarification. I will keep in mind.
  • kangkeok
    kangkeok Member Posts: 1,123 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    lantern22 said:

    kangkeok said:

    Second, their AD gain. Its no longer the same as in the past where we could salvage purple stuff for AD. These days newbie earning are limited to leveling que 1k RAD per run and RIQ 2k RAD per run. With ME and daily bonus, they earn around 40-50k Rad. The rest is farming RIQ at 2k RAD per run.

    So I wouldn't say content is easy for low ilvl. In fact they are harder due to the nature of how their stat and dungeon scale. They could only rely on higher ilevel to carry them through the content. If u put only 14-15k in prophecy of madness, its gonna be party wipe after party wipe.

    Starting off a new character back then wasn't easy either, and in fact having a geared character that isn't in a R20 guild isn't that easy either. But now ppl seem to QQ if they can't get to finish the latest dungeon NOW and sook if they have to work for it.

    Whilst AD gain might be lower, cost to gear up is also lower. R11 Azure is now under 100K back then it was up around 800K. You can get R14 Black Ice enchants now for 730K they used to be over 2 mil. RP is dirt cheap - a stack of emeralds used to be 40-70k now they are 17k, black pearls were 20k+ now 4K. The only thing that is more expensive is Wards and you don't need too many of those to get to around 20K mark. easier

    Stats on gear that you get from MEs is now massive - easier.

    20K toon can run MEs - (24K per day if you take the time to get Chaos runes), RLQ - 12K (with 50% AD bonus) and RIQ 18K with bonus. Thats around 50K without any drops (I got a 300K AH drop in the RLQ yesterday). So that's a R11 enchant every second day, that is much faster than it took me to get R11s a few years ago, much faster. easier

    and random advanced Q's aren't easy for anyone if you solo Q and the other ppl don't know what they are doing.

    The bosses in FBI are so easy now its a joke, taking the stacks off the turtle just gimped it beyond belief . . . could go on but meh . . .

    please go back to normal and epic versions of the dungeons so both groups can be happy

    Its true price got cheap and gear stat are higher but u must consider the new scaling of stat in mod 16, 1% for 1000stat point vs 1% for 400Stat point in the past. Also, it isn't about getting to 20k ilvl too. Like cherryman said, u have to build your character right to be effective in higher level content. Enchantment alone isnt enough. Those right companion, mount & insignia are not easy to invest. Its takes weeks to month. Takes longer if your daily AD gain is lesser than 100k. Then there are those bondings stone that require ward.

    Also enchantment price drop when the cap is increase. Back in the days r8 enchant cost 100k when the cap is r12. Nowadays r8 is 1k when the cap is r15. So buying r11 at 100k is like buying r8 back in the days. U cant compare on that.

    Also there is another factor that I forgot to mention earlier. Beside the need of doing extra run on dungeon Q to reach the daily AD cap, newbie also need to catch up on boons. That means a hell lot of dailies from old content they need to do everyday. Frankly RAQ are just a luxury for a newbie. RIQ and leveling que are more time efficient and its their main focus. Repeated failure in dungeon are gonna cost them real hard looking at the time they had each day to play catch up. So yeah, its way easier to level a toon in the past.
  • lantern22
    lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,110 Arc User
    kangkeok said:

    lantern22 said:

    kangkeok said:

    Second, their AD gain. Its no longer the same as in the past where we could salvage purple stuff for AD. These days newbie earning are limited to leveling que 1k RAD per run and RIQ 2k RAD per run. With ME and daily bonus, they earn around 40-50k Rad. The rest is farming RIQ at 2k RAD per run.

    So I wouldn't say content is easy for low ilvl. In fact they are harder due to the nature of how their stat and dungeon scale. They could only rely on higher ilevel to carry them through the content. If u put only 14-15k in prophecy of madness, its gonna be party wipe after party wipe.

    Starting off a new character back then wasn't easy either, and in fact having a geared character that isn't in a R20 guild isn't that easy either. But now ppl seem to QQ if they can't get to finish the latest dungeon NOW and sook if they have to work for it.

    Whilst AD gain might be lower, cost to gear up is also lower. R11 Azure is now under 100K back then it was up around 800K. You can get R14 Black Ice enchants now for 730K they used to be over 2 mil. RP is dirt cheap - a stack of emeralds used to be 40-70k now they are 17k, black pearls were 20k+ now 4K. The only thing that is more expensive is Wards and you don't need too many of those to get to around 20K mark. easier

    Stats on gear that you get from MEs is now massive - easier.

    20K toon can run MEs - (24K per day if you take the time to get Chaos runes), RLQ - 12K (with 50% AD bonus) and RIQ 18K with bonus. Thats around 50K without any drops (I got a 300K AH drop in the RLQ yesterday). So that's a R11 enchant every second day, that is much faster than it took me to get R11s a few years ago, much faster. easier

    and random advanced Q's aren't easy for anyone if you solo Q and the other ppl don't know what they are doing.

    The bosses in FBI are so easy now its a joke, taking the stacks off the turtle just gimped it beyond belief . . . could go on but meh . . .

    please go back to normal and epic versions of the dungeons so both groups can be happy

    Its true price got cheap and gear stat are higher but u must consider the new scaling of stat in mod 16, 1% for 1000stat point vs 1% for 400Stat point in the past. Also, it isn't about getting to 20k ilvl too. Like cherryman said, u have to build your character right to be effective in higher level content. Enchantment alone isnt enough. Those right companion, mount & insignia are not easy to invest. Its takes weeks to month. Takes longer if your daily AD gain is lesser than 100k. Then there are those bondings stone that require ward.

    Also enchantment price drop when the cap is increase. Back in the days r8 enchant cost 100k when the cap is r12. Nowadays r8 is 1k when the cap is r15. So buying r11 at 100k is like buying r8 back in the days. U cant compare on that.

    Also there is another factor that I forgot to mention earlier. Beside the need of doing extra run on dungeon Q to reach the daily AD cap, newbie also need to catch up on boons. That means a hell lot of dailies from old content they need to do everyday. Frankly RAQ are just a luxury for a newbie. RIQ and leveling que are more time efficient and its their main focus. Repeated failure in dungeon are gonna cost them real hard looking at the time they had each day to play catch up. So yeah, its way easier to level a toon in the past.
    Those prices are from last year - when R14s were BIS, so imo your comparison to R8s and R12 is not accurate.

    Boons aren't as critical in Mod 16 as they were prior to that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all the power boons add up to about 2500 Power - compare that the 8000 you get from SH boon, so meh boons - another things that is easier on the new player, just ask to join a R20 guild, not very hard.

    These days new players get a set of vistani gear for completing the Ravenloft intro and a set of R8 enchants - we never got anything like that when I started. Then they get a set of undermountain gear (and weapons) when you start that campaign along with arti's (allbeit crappy ones) and wait - more R8 enchants. You get BIS companion gear from just doing the campaign that is worth a whole stack of close to BIS enchants. We never got anything like that.

    With all that freely gifted and shiny new gear that you get for about one weeks worth of playing, they should be able to go back to Sharandar and DR and survive without too many problems.

    How much do we want gifted to new players? - a full set of BIS Artis? Maybe fully refined weapons and armour / weapon enchants? A couple of campaign completion tokens?

    If you ask me, half the problem with RAQ these days is it is too easy for new players to make the IL cut off and gear up and they are in there without enough practice and no idea about how to play their class or with brains enough for simple things like let the tank get aggro before they launch their ranged attacks. Like you said yourself, players need to learn how to build their toons correctly, and making it faster and easier to gear up is not going to help that, it will make it worse. But just on that, guess what, - it is easier to build a toon now as well because powers & feats all got gimped.

    How does the saying go - "you can give a man a fish and feed him for a day, or you can teach him how to fish and feed him for his life". I don't think giving new players more free stuff, or making it easier, is the solution. They need to learn how to play.

    How about this? - If players want to be BIS and fully end game, they work for it like everyone else had to . . . . . or there is another option - pay for it and support the game. If they make things too easy, we will all be sitting around saying there is nothing to do, nothing to work towards, no sense of accomplishment when you can finally go back to stuff that was hard and breeze through it and know that you have earned it.
  • mentinmindmaker
    mentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,367 Arc User
    edited July 2019

    chemjeff said:

    LOMM runs take 25 minutes, CR runs take 35 minutes, and CODG takes 10 minutes with a group that understands the mechanics.

    Well here is my experience, as a casual daily player:
    LOMM: 1 hour
    CR: can't be finished
    CODG: fall off platform
    This is the norm when Qing alone or with one or two other people that are part of your preformed group.

    As for a PUG (pick up group); it all depends if the group knows what the mechanics of the dungeon are. I have ran with a PUG from the Yawning portal quite a few times and have yet to fail LoMM. The average completion time vs. running with my guildies or alliance is around 5-10 minutes longer. So typically 45+ minutes vs 30 minutes.

    For those that keep stating PUG and doing REQ, RAQ, etc... those are not PUG groups, that is simply Qing into the content and getting a Q group. A PUG is when you are picked up at the yawning portal for a preform formed group outside of your alliance and friends; that is a PUG group. To many players associate PUG with Q group vs. what PUG actually means.

    I laugh every time I see PUG and than someone says you should do call out and get into a premade group at the Yawning portal, because that would be a PUG vs. joining a Q group.
    People use PUG to mean both of the things you described. Your going to find it difficult to set what things mean. I usually will talk a little bit with the person to figure out which way they are using that term.
    The distinction is preformed vs. PUG.

    PUG is what you get when you queue solo for a RQ, and it basically means you have no control of what quality people you play with. (And usually you get a not-too-well-geared group)

    A preformed group can pick the people that participates, so usually low-gear people get weeded out.

    This is what I perceive to be the normal use for these concepts.
  • kangkeok
    kangkeok Member Posts: 1,123 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    lantern22 said:

    kangkeok said:

    lantern22 said:

    kangkeok said:

    Second, their AD gain. Its no longer the same as in the past where we could salvage purple stuff for AD. These days newbie earning are limited to leveling que 1k RAD per run and RIQ 2k RAD per run. With ME and daily bonus, they earn around 40-50k Rad. The rest is farming RIQ at 2k RAD per run.

    So I wouldn't say content is easy for low ilvl. In fact they are harder due to the nature of how their stat and dungeon scale. They could only rely on higher ilevel to carry them through the content. If u put only 14-15k in prophecy of madness, its gonna be party wipe after party wipe.

    Starting off a new character back then wasn't easy either, and in fact having a geared character that isn't in a R20 guild isn't that easy either. But now ppl seem to QQ if they can't get to finish the latest dungeon NOW and sook if they have to work for it.

    Whilst AD gain might be lower, cost to gear up is also lower. R11 Azure is now under 100K back then it was up around 800K. You can get R14 Black Ice enchants now for 730K they used to be over 2 mil. RP is dirt cheap - a stack of emeralds used to be 40-70k now they are 17k, black pearls were 20k+ now 4K. The only thing that is more expensive is Wards and you don't need too many of those to get to around 20K mark. easier

    Stats on gear that you get from MEs is now massive - easier.

    20K toon can run MEs - (24K per day if you take the time to get Chaos runes), RLQ - 12K (with 50% AD bonus) and RIQ 18K with bonus. Thats around 50K without any drops (I got a 300K AH drop in the RLQ yesterday). So that's a R11 enchant every second day, that is much faster than it took me to get R11s a few years ago, much faster. easier

    and random advanced Q's aren't easy for anyone if you solo Q and the other ppl don't know what they are doing.

    The bosses in FBI are so easy now its a joke, taking the stacks off the turtle just gimped it beyond belief . . . could go on but meh . . .

    please go back to normal and epic versions of the dungeons so both groups can be happy

    Its true price got cheap and gear stat are higher but u must consider the new scaling of stat in mod 16, 1% for 1000stat point vs 1% for 400Stat point in the past. Also, it isn't about getting to 20k ilvl too. Like cherryman said, u have to build your character right to be effective in higher level content. Enchantment alone isnt enough. Those right companion, mount & insignia are not easy to invest. Its takes weeks to month. Takes longer if your daily AD gain is lesser than 100k. Then there are those bondings stone that require ward.

    Also enchantment price drop when the cap is increase. Back in the days r8 enchant cost 100k when the cap is r12. Nowadays r8 is 1k when the cap is r15. So buying r11 at 100k is like buying r8 back in the days. U cant compare on that.

    Also there is another factor that I forgot to mention earlier. Beside the need of doing extra run on dungeon Q to reach the daily AD cap, newbie also need to catch up on boons. That means a hell lot of dailies from old content they need to do everyday. Frankly RAQ are just a luxury for a newbie. RIQ and leveling que are more time efficient and its their main focus. Repeated failure in dungeon are gonna cost them real hard looking at the time they had each day to play catch up. So yeah, its way easier to level a toon in the past.
    Those prices are from last year - when R14s were BIS, so imo your comparison to R8s and R12 is not accurate.

    Boons aren't as critical in Mod 16 as they were prior to that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all the power boons add up to about 2500 Power - compare that the 8000 you get from SH boon, so meh boons - another things that is easier on the new player, just ask to join a R20 guild, not very hard.

    These days new players get a set of vistani gear for completing the Ravenloft intro and a set of R8 enchants - we never got anything like that when I started. Then they get a set of undermountain gear (and weapons) when you start that campaign along with arti's (allbeit crappy ones) and wait - more R8 enchants. You get BIS companion gear from just doing the campaign that is worth a whole stack of close to BIS enchants. We never got anything like that.

    With all that freely gifted and shiny new gear that you get for about one weeks worth of playing, they should be able to go back to Sharandar and DR and survive without too many problems.

    How much do we want gifted to new players? - a full set of BIS Artis? Maybe fully refined weapons and armour / weapon enchants? A couple of campaign completion tokens?

    If you ask me, half the problem with RAQ these days is it is too easy for new players to make the IL cut off and gear up and they are in there without enough practice and no idea about how to play their class or with brains enough for simple things like let the tank get aggro before they launch their ranged attacks. Like you said yourself, players need to learn how to build their toons correctly, and making it faster and easier to gear up is not going to help that, it will make it worse. But just on that, guess what, - it is easier to build a toon now as well because powers & feats all got gimped.

    How does the saying go - "you can give a man a fish and feed him for a day, or you can teach him how to fish and feed him for his life". I don't think giving new players more free stuff, or making it easier, is the solution. They need to learn how to play.

    How about this? - If players want to be BIS and fully end game, they work for it like everyone else had to . . . . . or there is another option - pay for it and support the game. If they make things too easy, we will all be sitting around saying there is nothing to do, nothing to work towards, no sense of accomplishment when you can finally go back to stuff that was hard and breeze through it and know that you have earned it.
    So I made a mistake on the price but does that takes me out of the argument that enchantment price drop as new enchantment cap is increased? I'm sure it doesn't. Its just unfair to talk about price when things depreciate as more powerful stuff is released in the game. I might have complain about rank 5 was once was 65k and now its less than 1k?

    There are 4 tier of power boon. Each tier giving 1250 power to a total sum of 5k power for all 4 tier. So that's definitely more than 2500 power. Not to mention the 4% outgoing heal at tier 5 and those bonus u get at tier 6. So yes, boon does has its weight on player.

    People tend to think vistani gear are there to spoil new player. In fact, those gear are necessary to help them to get by undermountain content. Starting those content with a subpar leveling gear obtain from level 60+ quest just wont cut it. Its even impractical to expect new player to grind level 70 BIS gear to do undermountain content like the veterans do.

    New player are working their HAMSTER out I'm sure. Its just easy to say they don't. If u think RAQ is easy for new player to make IL cut off, think again. RAQ isn't gonna happen if there are no higher level to carry them. Putting bunch of 16k ilvl even in the easiest FBI, would end up with multiple wipe not to mention it will takes ages to complete. And that's only fbi. What if CR or Tong popped? RAQ is just a luxury to the new player. They could have not done it for the day if they had bad luck with getting easier dungeon or a good group.

    Days are very much different now than those that we know in the past. Especially so many changes had been done to the game. Its just unfair to assume things u experience as a newbie in the past are the same as newbie these days.
  • dionchi
    dionchi Member Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    I still say when any player intentionally queues for a random queue (regardless of level) - they should have the foresight to know they will be placed in a random area (not always to their preference), with a random selection of people (again not always meeting their personal preference as to play style, equipment or whatever) and best, simplest and most assured way of avoiding ares or players one might not prefer or personally approve of is to avoid the clearly specified "RANDOM" queue to begin with...

    Yes, I'm also unhappy if I queue for random and wind up in an area I don't like, or have to put up with soloists, AFK'res or leeches in my party - but sometimes that's the nature of random queues, so I try to be a team player, slog through as best I can with the sure knowledge that I can always queue for another run when this one is over...

    Content "too hard" - "too easy", AFK'ers, Leeches, speed runners who abandon their party and competent and inept soloists... I'm of the opinion that 10 times out of 10 players know exactly what they may have to contend with when they make the decision to queue for random content and if it really upset them they wouldn't queue random...

    I don't think it's unreasonable for some players to request the addition of more difficult content, easier content, more solo friendly content, more group friendly content... But to expect currently available content be changed to accommodate individual preference, when in truth all it amounts to is "preference", I'm neither shocked nor surprised when there doesn't appear to be an immediate or even eventual, response. ¢¢

    Now that being said, my personal preference is leave all current content as it is (or as was pre-Mod16) and develop new content, some "progressively harder" some "extremely harder", some more "group friendly" and some kind of "solo friendly"... in other words exactly what you have already been doing ~

    Thanks.
    DD~
  • dionchi
    dionchi Member Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    Well now... Just took a look at a few of the MOD17 changes and for everyone who has been complaining that Neverwinter has become "too easy" or who have been demanding harder more challenging content... it looks like you're complaints and wishes are going to be addressed - but probably not in the way you were hoping for ~ (be careful what you wish for).

    It seems there will be a couple of areas where the content will be much more challenging - and solo unfriendly - meaning no matter how good an individual's game is, unless there is some very well thought out coordination and cooperation among party members the run is going to fail... if one player tries to slack their way through the content (AFK, Leech, whatever) then there is a very good chance the mission in it's entirety, will likely fail.

    This should be fun...
    DD~
  • wylonus
    wylonus Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,376 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    i am deaf, how do i am able to hear thru discord and vocals? if i used other devices "listening translator", i have to read and watch the game screen to keep eye on incoming red effect attacks. i used to play eq2 with raid teams, and starting increasing more frustrated as more new vocal technologies. wearing headphone all day trying to indenify what words other players spoke. hardest voices ever are those who "lisp" are difficult to recognized words and specific sounds, and most male voices are too deep, women voices are easy to spot due to high tone and take time to get familar with local accents.
    not easy to find some members who has time to work with me, so many players had left and getting newer members and most still dont know that i am deaf.
    i am tired of headphones and been getting headaches from it.

    edit to remind,
    getting tired of complex fight scriptings that i did got years on eq2 raids, all i want was to get nice gears so i can do the quests, but lately, newer "heroic" zones are too tough to solo when there isnt other players doing other stuffs, and some are becoming ghost towns, i had seen other players begging for groups and trying to catch up or still looking for exclusive loot they want, or finding rare collectable "?" that was on the ground.

    many players dont care for collection quest and being mocked when they said "WHY do that when you can buy one from auction or claiming those zones are unpopular or outdated"
    really??? i am so broke and those items are way overpriced, and they are cheating with "multi-boxing" or snap up and remark ups at higher prices, and hoarding to sell golds and plats from 3rd party sites. so i had it enough with them.

    already burnout on complex fight scriptings, when i play NWO when it was first launched, it was a breath of new life and seem it getting harder, we been nerfed so hard by Mod 6 and Mod 16, nearly gave up and not trusting devs again and would expecting "Mod 6 version 3.0" all over again, i played ESO and i like it better, they scaled challenges so much better than NWO's new scaling, it is way too messy and frustrating.
    Post edited by wylonus on
  • wylonus
    wylonus Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,376 Arc User
    just before Eq2 split from Sony, they added pretty good concepts for zones, copies of same zone.

    1. Solo-hard challenges (nothing overwhelming) (basic solo)
    2. standard group, new fight scripts, often some tough fights, extra mobs (Standard)
    3. elite heroic group, more challenging, and often hardcore known as (Hardmode)

    as you click portals/doors, you get option to select challenges.

    what i am saying the Bavoria's Hunt was on right track for scaling of challenges, and That Tales of the Old, isnt right way. some are too excessive scriptings, some players doesnt want to explore whole zone, they just want rush to the boss and get out.
    also that AI's weekly challenges isnt right way, players hate that "anyone dies" they lose and so sick of trying again. players think this is dirty and seem dishonest way to hurt players by devs's no death clause, due to one-shot bug.
  • mentinmindmaker
    mentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,367 Arc User
    I agree that there is a problem related to content requiring too complex coordination. If the coordination is so complex you must have voice in the group, a lot of players will be left out.
    * People with hearing impairments
    * People with missing english language skills(unless they play in a local language team)
    * People that for various reasons cannot have (loud) sound on and cannot wear headphones(typical family/parent setting)

    It is very possible to make hard content without making it extremely coordination demanding.
  • thefabricant
    thefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    The developer responsible for the new trial specifically said that the new trial was intended to challenge endgame groups and it does. Not only that, he said that when it goes live it will not be available to public queue or random queue (it won't go into the possible list of dungeons to REQ). My character is nearly BiS (legendary insignias and the correct gear choices, missing things like a shirt which I haven't dropped yet) and is only just over 24000 item level, it is very clear that this raid was not designed to be completed by everyone and that is fine. If you are the type of player that likes nail bitingly difficult content, then this is content for you.

    I had fun running it, I think it is fine as is, although the developer said they will be making it harder than it currently is and that is fine by me as well, its just more fun for me long term. Those of us who completed it, will be working on a player guide for it, but do not expect everyone to finish this dungeon, in fact, if you don't know every single player in your group well and run with them regularly+co-ordinate on voice chat, do not expect to finish at all.
  • tom#6998
    tom#6998 Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    > @mentinmindmaker said:
    > I agree that there is a problem related to content requiring too complex coordination. If the coordination is so complex you must have voice in the group, a lot of players will be left out.
    > * People with hearing impairments
    > * People with missing english language skills(unless they play in a local language team)
    > * People that for various reasons cannot have (loud) sound on and cannot wear headphones(typical family/parent setting)
    >
    > It is very possible to make hard content without making it extremely coordination demanding.

    Content that is very hard and requires no communication? How does that look like?

    Im sorry for ppl who arent able to use voicechat because of reasons they cant influence. But to have to design all content in the game arround that seems not like a good solution.

    Do u also complain that Legs are usefull for playing soccer and the game should be changed so ppl in wheelchairs can compete equally?
  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    Content is about to get a little harder...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • lantern22
    lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,110 Arc User
    kangkeok said:

    If u think RAQ is easy for new player to make IL cut off, think again. RAQ isn't gonna happen if there are no higher level to carry them. Putting bunch of 16k ilvl even in the easiest FBI, would end up with multiple wipe not to mention it will takes ages to complete. And that's only fbi. What if CR or Tong popped? RAQ is just a luxury to the new player. They could have not done it for the day if they had bad luck with getting easier dungeon or a good group.


    RAQ = Random Advanced Queue, not Random "easily finished by a group of players that have been playing a week or two" Queue. Advanced - Advanced should be hard for new players to complete.

    But probably just have to agree to disagree.
  • kangkeok
    kangkeok Member Posts: 1,123 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    lantern22 said:

    kangkeok said:

    If u think RAQ is easy for new player to make IL cut off, think again. RAQ isn't gonna happen if there are no higher level to carry them. Putting bunch of 16k ilvl even in the easiest FBI, would end up with multiple wipe not to mention it will takes ages to complete. And that's only fbi. What if CR or Tong popped? RAQ is just a luxury to the new player. They could have not done it for the day if they had bad luck with getting easier dungeon or a good group.


    RAQ = Random Advanced Queue, not Random "easily finished by a group of players that have been playing a week or two" Queue. Advanced - Advanced should be hard for new players to complete.

    But probably just have to agree to disagree.
    Oh I'm not denying that fact. I'm just pointing out that the reduced ilvl requirement for RAQ in mod 16 doesn't make it easy for new player to make an ilvl cut off like u said