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tanks, don't need them anymore
pariswinters
Member Posts: 858 Arc User
This is something that i've became aware of with this new module. Tanks are no longer needed for a decent group to complete any dungeon anymore. Personally if I am putting together a team I do not even consider tanks for a slot, because i have no use for them now. 1 healer and 4 dps is good enough for any content currently, hell 5 dps is good really. for Lomm 1 of the DPS can be an Arbiter and just run Bastion of Health and Hallowed Ground, so it can be done without a tank or a healer role in the team, and this is the newest, latest dungeon.
@devs.....you need to take a look at what you've done to roles and rebalance the game so that tanks better fill their role, in past modules it was not a question of even attempting an endgame dungeon without a tank.
@devs.....you need to take a look at what you've done to roles and rebalance the game so that tanks better fill their role, in past modules it was not a question of even attempting an endgame dungeon without a tank.
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HAMSTER was too hard, so we bitched, now it's too easy, so we HAMSTER.
A lot of people said reducing critter hp by 10% across the board was too much in conjunction with the doubling of enchants and tweaking of scaling, but did they listen? No. They did all these tweaks to critters before had too, including reducing the amount they hit for, problem was, a lot of bugs were in place as well, like some defensive buffs not working properly. doh.
Having a tank who tanks means equal DPS's arent gonna swap agro all the time having bosses turn and jump all the time. Having a tank makes it easier on the healer who mostly just needs to heal the tank, and the tank doesnt need as much heals at the dps class would.
I always bring a tank, because the extra dps isnt gonna speed things up that much anyway, and its less chaos, less things that can go run. Its safer and more casual chill to run the dungeon then.
Having 5 dps in LoMM is gonna be hell on ur health stones though. Not something i would personally enjoy.
But compared to before mod 16, a tank is a good think to have now. And its needed for most groups.
In mod 15 a decent cleric with AA spam would give me so much power that my shepards devotion and daily every 8-10 sec would protect everyone. And lifesteal meant u didnt need healers.
http://swhipgaming.blogspot.com
Or did u like the part of one phasing everything, never having to care about or even do mechanics?
Or are u just mad they removed the several millions of temp hp every 10 sec from the paladin, so that now u have to actually pay attention and use ur shield?
> This is something that i've became aware of with this new module. Tanks are no longer needed for a decent group to complete any dungeon anymore. Personally if I am putting together a team I do not even consider tanks for a slot, because i have no use for them now. 1 healer and 4 dps is good enough for any content currently, hell 5 dps is good really. for Lomm 1 of the DPS can be an Arbiter and just run Bastion of Health and Hallowed Ground, so it can be done without a tank or a healer role in the team, and this is the newest, latest dungeon.
>
> @devs.....you need to take a look at what you've done to roles and rebalance the game so that tanks better fill their role, in past modules it was not a question of even attempting an endgame dungeon without a tank.
You have no clue what you’re talking about and I have no idea what you’re agenda is. You’ve already admitted on another post that you’re NOT endgame and have only done CN. You have ZERO actual experience with any endgame dungeon and are regurgitating what you’ve read
Yes, LOMM can be done without a tank...by a extremely small portion of the gaming population. This is not standard nor is it commonplace. Quit making asinine assumptions on material you read then pass it off as a general conclusion
If ur not a very well geared dps u cant do this. Most groups need a tank to clear much of anything.
How many of ur groups in any content, private, randoms, w/e could have done without a tank? And im not talking about ME, cause MEs are solo content. Just real grouped content.
Else u would have to draw the conclusion the healer does to much dmg and to much healing since they can pull agro. So how about we cut all dmg and healing by 50% ? Im sure u would agree thats not the case.
If the DPS hits for 30k. But the healer heals for 150k+. Ur heals are to much for bad dps to out agro. So stop healing so much in random groups, heal for less and u dont have those issues.
So as a "part time" Tank who used to enjoy running Advanced dungeons, I now find myself struggling.
I don't want to make either of my Tanks my main, cos... no fun... but the problem I have as a part-timer is that it is just too easy to lose aggro.
I took a while to warm to the new Paladin mechanics, and I'm still not truly won over, but every time I think I'm handling an encounter, some fat arsed Dragon Born in plate armour starts swinging what looks like a park bench decorated to look like Buddy Hall's house, in some seizure inducing Danse Macabre and boom Aggro gone.
I know,,, I'm probably not playing it right... but it seems I have to use one of my Encounter Slots to compensate for what Kermit the Barbarian does with At Wills.
I'm not sure exactly the point I'm trying to make here... maybe I'm agreeing with the OP, and in a sort of "Casual Tanks aren't as much fun" syngergising with the sentiment of "Don't HAMSTER want you anyway!" from the OP maybe it's a Win-Win?
Or maybe I'm suggesting that in a couple of Mods time when suddenly no one can get Dungeon runs with RQ PUGs and Prophecy, Throne, and MPF are all you can Random queue, because Tanks are nowhere, we all might reconsider how Support roles, (Casual Tanks in particular right now) are treated?
Probably the latter...
Probably a forlorn hope...
It really should scale up as the content and damage of the other classes goes up.
Right now it seems ( and please, someone, correct me if I'm wrong) that Pally Aggro goes up with your own damage, which obviously doesn't increase as much as say, Rogue, or Warlock (my two "Most Fun to play" at the moment... though Warlock could use some love on its Mana feature..)
My Pally is just over 20K (L10 Guild...) and can solo pretty much everything single handed, (maybe 3 Rune MEs are a no no... not that I can't do it, it just takes far too long to kill stuff soloing.)
My main is my Rogue 23K+ (also L10 Guild...) and you are right. I have about 300K HP, capped stats, and frankly plenty of healing from Mount Insignia Bonuses, and also the good sense to dodge (something that wasn't much of an issue pre mod 16, cos... Lifesteal.) My Rogue is in the best place it's been since way before Mod 15 took it behind the bushes and kicked the living HAMSTER out of it and told it never to show it's face in public again.
My Pally isn't quite at the capped out point, (about 10K in aggregated points that need swapping, and then another 5K in the right stats...) but I find that I have to build her around having higher Offence than Defence, JUST so she can generate enough damage to keep (and try and recover) Aggro, and rely on HP and Shield Pool to compensate for taking more damage per blow than a HAMSTER Rogue!
That's not an issue for Cappped Characters, but Casual/Alt Tanks who have to choose where to plough points till they ARE top banana come out of it the worst of both worlds. Stacking Offence only serves to play keepy uppy with DPS for Aggro, and lower Defence means you're not even taking full advantage of the potential of the Class.
I know @asterdahl moved absolute mountains to get the class ready, and compared to what I first saw... sweet mother of God... he did a damned good job. I think any future development into Pally (TBH I'm not at all familiar with Fighter and Barbarian Tanks...) needs to start with finding a way for the Casual/Alt to shine.
This whole new mod and system is quite clearly about playing the long game.
Adding new Tank and Healer paragons will only fill the spots intended for those Alt Load Outs with USEFUL characters down the line, who know how to play, IF the characters are FUN and enjoyable to play.
My first Support Toon was a cleric I built for guild and alliance runs about 4 1/2 years ago. That character barely ever did a jot of healing. Not enough to make a difference anyway. That character was a KEY to unlock content that required 3/1/1... if Guildies wanted to run something that needed a healer... I'd load up and take my turn as the token medic. We don't want to go back to THAT type of play but with Tanks.
Devs have said they wanted tanking to be more of an active part. So u have to hit things to get agro, not just hit the magic key every so often for taunt and then nothing else can ever get agro.
more dmg = more threat have always been the way this game did it. But they also had the taunt encounters. Problem was taunt was long, and it wasnt really a matter of taunting when u lost agro, it was about taunting all the time and the tanking part was pretty boring and there was no difference between a good tank, a bad tank or an a tank taunting every now while being semi afk.
But tanks they do still have a huge advantage on threat compared to DPS, they have several things and comboes that increase threat gen by more than any DPS can output in dmg. But u cant ignore ur offense stats, but then again why would u? U want solo content to take forever?
If u have an alt tank, and are hard pressed for stats. Cap ur offense for lvl 80 mob caps so u can do solo content as best as possible. And then go for defence caps. With decent bondings and the new gear. It shouldnt be very hard to do that, and still maintain 80k+ power and 60k+ CA. And i can say for sure that if u do things right, play well, both paladin and fighter can keep agro from almost anyone.
But yes, the days of having a main, and then a few alts u never did much of anything on, a few alts who cant even close to contribute much of anything to the average groups are over. Those alts worked when everything anyone cared about was how much u could buff. Now u have a job to do, and to do that job u have to put in effort.
Then DPS decided not to have tanks in their groups anymore (helped by devs who gave them too much LS) which resulted in a class what became obsolete and caused me to leave the game for a year and a half since I refused to beg over and over again for a place in a group… I never have seen some of those decent tanks anymore since then, they never returned.
I gave it another try with creating a Paladin when I came back and started all over again from scratch and with the use of proper companion/mount choices, include the right enchantments I fought my way back to the point I was when I left the game... But soon it all became too easy for the simple reason I could not die. I even went to kitchen to make coffee while Orcus in TonG was pounding my head… I know some players (friends) will think "except the moment Ogguk misstepped the rock's towards the twin's in LoL", I am a short legged dwarf afterall…
The moment came that Clerics and Paladins where degraded to just active and passive buffers (which I didn't like to be honest).
Dev's decided to give a complete overhaul of the game to give the Cleric and Tanks the things back they lost e.g. healing and proper tanking and Mod16 comes around the corner.
Since I have the capabillity to adopt easily to new situation all I had to do is adjust my play style to the current requirements..
From day 1 I saw players complaining in PE about all what was new / changed, but when I looked at them they where mostly pretty low enchanted for their levels and I thought that they should working on their character instead of complaining all day long.
I am not a so called elitist (and never will be) since I have worked on my character the old way (and still do every day).
So, at this point I am capable to tank any dungeon in game, and please note that you have tanks and tanks because good gear and proper enchantments doesnt make you automaticly a good tank, knowledge and being able to anticipate in critical situations does.
Now I see it all starting all over again when players are going to advocate that Tanks are not needed in this game.
Devs should adjust the game to make it even harder IMHO, just to keep Clerics and Tanks wanted and needed in groups because I refuse to become obsolete again, if you want to run without tanks in a private setting then be my guest but stop advocate this..
Respect does not comes automaticly, you have to earn it..
Pariswinters, feel free to add me to your list (Ogguk Sanctus@finmakin) and ask me if you seek a tank to show you the proper way.
ps. I might be sounding grumpy on this matter, but I feel that I have a solid reason for it.
sincerely.
o Raise all "Non-Boss" monster damage by 10%.
o Give all tanks 10% incoming damage reduction
o Give all tanks +10% threat generation
o Give all tanks a 5% penalty to dealing damage.
This would provide a greater need for tanks & healers, and create more separation between the Tank & DPS roles.
If u really wanted to promote the use of tanks across all strength of players u have to do extreme stuff. Right now tanks are needed for the majority of players to complete content. Some can chose to not go with them, but its not at a point yet where the common people in public channels dont want tanks. If it got to that point, go this.
Give every mob in the game a passive buff that makes them do double dmg to DPS and healer roles, but not on tanks. Reduce all healing with 50%, but give tanks a passive buff on incoming healing.
Some bosses have mechanics that randomly targets a party member, no amount of threat can control who this hits, change these to follow the threat levels, or do not include them in the double dmg thing.
But extremes like that is whats needed to "force" tanks and healers into groups. But the majority of groups i see wants the tanks. The majority of players i see need the tanks. So tanks are wanted and no changes are really needed right now, and extreme changes would only hurt those few % of players who play with no tanks right now.
One impression I have been getting more recently is some- veteran and experienced players seem to be griping about players having no clue as to how to play the game... but at the same time appear unwilling to even try to teach lesser experienced players how to improve their characters.
Some even go so far as to try to complain about having to "carry" lesser experienced players. Some say lesser experienced players should watch videos of how other players play, but they themselves seem wholly unwilling to do anything to instruct or assist lesser experienced players. By in large we are living in a
worldgame of our own making...People complain long enough chances are things will be changed, if those changes appear to make things worse than they were previously - maybe we have no one but ourselves to blame...
Just a thought ~
The problems described basically don’t exist outside those circumstances.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
As I said, no one is obligated to offer or try to teach a lesser experienced player... but as the old saying goes" "HAMSTER or get off the pot"... Take what steps you can to turn a bad player into a better player - or stop complaining when a player is getting experience and proficiency by trial and error because that's the best method available to them.