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paladin is too high DPS

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  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,719 Arc User
    Random queues are usually filled with players who are not that skilled or geared. Those without guilds or friends or static groups, or playing when the above are not online. Not to mention the swarm of bots. Random queues with random people will not give any indication of how a class is doing.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,083 Arc User
    tom#6998 said:



    the notion that the dps chart is irrelevant and says nothing about dps, is HAMSTER

    The ONLY way that chart is relevant is if the only change to it is your character. The other 4 slots must remain static; the same characters, the same players, doing the exact same thing in the run.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,083 Arc User


    why is it there then?

    Ego stroking.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • fyrstigorfyrstigor Member Posts: 299 Arc User

    fyrstigor said:

    fyrstigor said:

    finmakin said:

    finmakin said:

    Dev's should change the accessibility of latest dungeon and all future ones so ppl will be forced to have a tank and healer in group to be able to enter (like the que system)

    Actually I disagree with that, if people want to private queue and do content how they want I'm fine with that.

    Good players will take tanks, even if not technically needed, because every time a new mod rolls around you need tanks and healers to help push you to the new peak of the game as fast as possible.
    Perhaps you are right about that, considering private queue...
    But It's not needed to vent out your personal grudge against tanks, I see that as childish behave..
    Guess what…. Miss Pariswinters has even opened a new post with her same grudges….

    Actually these posts shouldnt belong here in this section, but in rant and flames section

    personal grudge? don't take this personal then, I don't know you.
    I have a paladin myself, was my first character, and i have nothing against any class, i just would like to see them more balanced. one of the major points of bringing this up is that the Fighter tank falls so far behind the paladin in damage dealing.
    Do u have a fighter ? Are u terrible at playing ur fighter ? Cause they really dont. Their dmg is lower but it doesnt fall far behind, not even close.
    i do have a fighter, i dont play it often and dont do endgame content, the most ive done is CN and that was back in module 15. I play with fighter tanks though, in public groups, and they do less damage on average then my cleric does as healer, while paladin tanks do 3-4x times the damage my healer does.
    Random ques doesnt say anything about how a class is or what its capable off. I can tell u for a fact that paladin and fighter tank dmg is pretty close, i have one of each, both about equally geared on the dps side, both doing LoMM since release.

    The paladin is stronger but not by enough that it should require any changes. The paladin needs to be stronger since they dont have a dps path to use on solo. The fighter have that option. So if u reduce the paladin dmg its not gonna change much of anything in the average dungeon, but it can quickly mess up solo, specially for those lesser geared.

    But like others have said, random ques are the worst place for any measurement of how a class is doing. U need controlled environment with equally geared well built toons. And the players need to be about equal skill to. And sorry to say, but random ques doesnt tend to attract most of those kind of people.
    i think it does very much give a picture of class performance, because its always just random players, and we're talking me running 2-3 random dungeons a day here. i play everyday. i think making private groups of already knowledgable and skilled to the max players isn't an accurate way to gauge the averages in a game like this.
    No it doesnt xD I can go randoms on my rogue all day long and feel good about myself, cause no one will even come close to my dmg. I will beat every single one i meet. And by a lot. That doesnt mean the rogue is overpowered or to strong. That just means random groups are generally for those undergeared, with bad stat distribution who doesnt have any means of getting premade groups, or they enjoy the random sometimes very hard runs.

    A lot of average players doesnt even random que. They dont wanna deal with other people, or they go with 5 man groups from their guild / alliance / friendlist.

    Random ques are in no way to indicate the average player. Random ques generally indicate the below average players. With some exceptions ofc.

    U cant gauge the performance of a class based on the below average players. If u wanna see what a class is truely capable of u need good players who know how to build and how to play well. And then u pit them against each other. And even then u cant really say for sure. Ive done LoMMs like that. And at those stat levels u can have at 23k+ being best dps is not about playing flawless its about getting to the groups first. Its about making sure u hit ur AoE encounter faster than they hit it.
  • draugkirdraugkir Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    99% of the op posts are bitching about Paladins this paladins that lmao.

    Too funny dude.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,641 Arc User

    I have a paladin, far from BIS but very well equiped. I outdps lots of mediocre dps yes. And what? They were mediocre players. When I play with average dps they do 2,5x my dmg, when I play with very good dps they do 4x my dmg.

    Nothing new here, is an mmo you see everything from best to worst. Stop mixing things and thinking paladin is the problem. I assume you arent new to the game but with this kind of posts it seems that every dps you play with are very bad.

    your assumption is incorrect...
  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Member Posts: 821 Arc User

    Paladin is too high dps

    Not my paladin.
    Every now and then when there's only one goon in the mob left, and I've got it in front of me, and I'm fresh out of encounter juice, I swear everyone else just takes a few moments to watch me whaling away. And I sense a collective smirk. Could be that I just suck, but I've seen a lot of other paladins in the same situation, and it's like watching someone peel a potato with a wooden spoon.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,641 Arc User

    Paladin is too high dps

    Not my paladin.
    Every now and then when there's only one goon in the mob left, and I've got it in front of me, and I'm fresh out of encounter juice, I swear everyone else just takes a few moments to watch me whaling away. And I sense a collective smirk. Could be that I just suck, but I've seen a lot of other paladins in the same situation, and it's like watching someone peel a potato with a wooden spoon.
    it is easier if you cook them first...
  • thestiathestia Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 296 Arc User
    Well on the original topic, what exactly is the problem with support classes being able to do decent dps? Firstly, the devs stated that they want aggro management to be an active role, not simply pressing an encounter and hiding behind their shield. Secondly, if paladin dps was nerfed to whatever level you think is acceptable, how would that effect paladins that need to do their dailies? Paladins don't have a dedicated dps tree. I know that if I found doing dailies even more tedious due to lack of pally dps, I'd never do solo content.
  • fyrstigorfyrstigor Member Posts: 299 Arc User

    fyrstigor said:

    fyrstigor said:

    fyrstigor said:

    finmakin said:

    finmakin said:

    Dev's should change the accessibility of latest dungeon and all future ones so ppl will be forced to have a tank and healer in group to be able to enter (like the que system)

    Actually I disagree with that, if people want to private queue and do content how they want I'm fine with that.

    Good players will take tanks, even if not technically needed, because every time a new mod rolls around you need tanks and healers to help push you to the new peak of the game as fast as possible.
    Perhaps you are right about that, considering private queue...
    But It's not needed to vent out your personal grudge against tanks, I see that as childish behave..
    Guess what…. Miss Pariswinters has even opened a new post with her same grudges….

    Actually these posts shouldnt belong here in this section, but in rant and flames section

    personal grudge? don't take this personal then, I don't know you.
    I have a paladin myself, was my first character, and i have nothing against any class, i just would like to see them more balanced. one of the major points of bringing this up is that the Fighter tank falls so far behind the paladin in damage dealing.
    Do u have a fighter ? Are u terrible at playing ur fighter ? Cause they really dont. Their dmg is lower but it doesnt fall far behind, not even close.
    i do have a fighter, i dont play it often and dont do endgame content, the most ive done is CN and that was back in module 15. I play with fighter tanks though, in public groups, and they do less damage on average then my cleric does as healer, while paladin tanks do 3-4x times the damage my healer does.
    Random ques doesnt say anything about how a class is or what its capable off. I can tell u for a fact that paladin and fighter tank dmg is pretty close, i have one of each, both about equally geared on the dps side, both doing LoMM since release.

    The paladin is stronger but not by enough that it should require any changes. The paladin needs to be stronger since they dont have a dps path to use on solo. The fighter have that option. So if u reduce the paladin dmg its not gonna change much of anything in the average dungeon, but it can quickly mess up solo, specially for those lesser geared.

    But like others have said, random ques are the worst place for any measurement of how a class is doing. U need controlled environment with equally geared well built toons. And the players need to be about equal skill to. And sorry to say, but random ques doesnt tend to attract most of those kind of people.
    i think it does very much give a picture of class performance, because its always just random players, and we're talking me running 2-3 random dungeons a day here. i play everyday. i think making private groups of already knowledgable and skilled to the max players isn't an accurate way to gauge the averages in a game like this.
    No it doesnt xD I can go randoms on my rogue all day long and feel good about myself, cause no one will even come close to my dmg. I will beat every single one i meet. And by a lot. That doesnt mean the rogue is overpowered or to strong. That just means random groups are generally for those undergeared, with bad stat distribution who doesnt have any means of getting premade groups, or they enjoy the random sometimes very hard runs.

    A lot of average players doesnt even random que. They dont wanna deal with other people, or they go with 5 man groups from their guild / alliance / friendlist.

    Random ques are in no way to indicate the average player. Random ques generally indicate the below average players. With some exceptions ofc.

    U cant gauge the performance of a class based on the below average players. If u wanna see what a class is truely capable of u need good players who know how to build and how to play well. And then u pit them against each other. And even then u cant really say for sure. Ive done LoMMs like that. And at those stat levels u can have at 23k+ being best dps is not about playing flawless its about getting to the groups first. Its about making sure u hit ur AoE encounter faster than they hit it.
    i dont see how its not a good gauge, its literally anyone from any class from any skill level. i'm not talking about 5-10 CN i did one day, im talking 200+ dungeons i've ran the past 2 months, CN/FBI/MSP/TONG/LOMM and this is a generalization I feel is accurate, even lower level paladins do more dps then equally low gear dps on average.
    But its not. Ive run many many random ques for a long time, and the result for me was always the same. In random ques u meet the worst of the worst. Sometimes u have decent players. But almost never do u have good players. The good players mostly just doesnt solo que randoms in my experience.

    And lower level paladins does not do more dmg than an equally geared lower level dps. If a dps is built bad, then yes they are pretty easy to beat as a tank. Done it multiple times. But can i assume when u talk about equally geared ur talking about itemlvl ? Cause itemlvl is misleading, itemlvl shows potential a class should be at, not what the person behind the keyboard is actually capable of. Does that mean a lot of players in random ques didnt properly balance their stats? Didnt get the right mix of things? Most likely yes. Cause if a tank is beating u on dmg, u have built ur toon wrong, or ur simple just horrible at playing it.

    My latest alt was a warlock, i did LoMM shortly after it was made, used mains to gear it to 20k. And i was no where close to getting beat by tanks. On bosses i did way more dmg. On adds not that much more, but still more. And this was good geared tanks, who have beaten other better itemlvl dps before. Just not better stat balanced.
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    Paingiver is, to some degree relevant. I can see the playstyle of the other players and, at the end, their dps.

    I dont really care, if some other player did 1/10th of my chars dmg (okey, I get a little bit angry, if no one contributes at all). It gets interesting for me, when soneone does significant more dmg, then my char. I can inspect the player, try to recall his rotation and maybe look in the forum for a clue.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Member Posts: 821 Arc User
    edited July 2019

    ..the problem is in the balance. for example paladin tank is "support" in your view. so then any non dps is support right? so a healer is "support". my problem is that 1 support is doing 3-4 times the dps of any other "support"...

    Now I get it.
    A tank class should always outtank a dps or hybrid class. A healer class should always outheal a hybrid. Just as a pure dps class should always outdps any other class. It's a good reminder.

    But my worry is more for myself in what's primarily solo content. I've got three characters in the same campaign zone running the same exact stuff every day: arbiter, rogue, and paladin. For a while there, in the same amount of time it took me to finish the paladin's daily chores, I was able to wrap things up for the other two and get started on a third character. That's how slow combat was. Since then I've respecced, swapped out encounters, and outfitted my paladin as I would a dps class, and it's gotten better, but it still can't compete with my dpsers. I still dread what it's going to be like trying to move that character through more difficult campaigns.

    So I agree with you about ensuring the paladin does best what it does best, but I'd hate to see its dps drop - for my own sake.
  • fyrstigorfyrstigor Member Posts: 299 Arc User

    thestia said:

    Well on the original topic, what exactly is the problem with support classes being able to do decent dps? Firstly, the devs stated that they want aggro management to be an active role, not simply pressing an encounter and hiding behind their shield. Secondly, if paladin dps was nerfed to whatever level you think is acceptable, how would that effect paladins that need to do their dailies? Paladins don't have a dedicated dps tree. I know that if I found doing dailies even more tedious due to lack of pally dps, I'd never do solo content.

    nothing, but the problem is in the balance. for example paladin tank is "support" in your view. so then any non dps is support right? so a healer is "support". my problem is that 1 support is doing 3-4 times the dps of any other "support"....cleric has a dps path, and if i run that path i can barely do more dps then a paladin. if i run healer they do easily 2-3 times my dps. i've yet to see a single fighter tank that didnt come in last on the chart for damage dealt.
    Have u not read anything that anyone have posted ? Several people have tried to help u understand why u see those differences. Several people have told u that random ques dont show the balance of the class very well. Yet u keep ignoring it and asking the same questions.

    U can compared 1 random group to the other. Or draw any conclusions of class balance based of random ques. U dont even know what powers they use. 1 healer could be using no dps encouters. The next could be using 2 and not healing as much. Same goes for tanks, some might avoid everything that has dmg on them, some might not. Some have feats to boost dmg, some have feats to become more tanky.

    And the fact that u dont know how to play dps cleric doesnt tell anything about the balance of that path either. I dont play it myself, i like my dps classes more. But ive seen dps cleric beat tanks without any real issues. But they get easily beaten by other dps classes. And fighter tanks have no issue doing some good tanking dmg, if they want to. But i would expect most in random ques, specially lowered geared ones have focus on defense stats, and then ofc their dmg will be low.

    I will say it again. If u want to compare classes and role to each other u need a controlled environment. Outside of a controlled environment ur not testing the class. Ur testing the ability of the player using the class. So instead of saying paladins does to much dmg. Maybe ask the question, why do the majority of players in ur random ques suck? How can Cryptic make rewards for doing random ques enough for the good and veteran players to spend time on them? Spend ur time on the real issues with randoms, instead of drawing faulty pointless conclusions.
  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Member Posts: 1,654 Arc User

    nothing, but the problem is in the balance. for example paladin tank is "support" in your view. so then any non dps is support right? so a healer is "support". my problem is that 1 support is doing 3-4 times the dps of any other "support"....cleric has a dps path, and if i run that path i can barely do more dps then a paladin. if i run healer they do easily 2-3 times my dps. i've yet to see a single fighter tank that didnt come in last on the chart for damage dealt.

    I got tossed into eToS for a random queue and was under 100k out of being in first on the paingiver....on my healer cleric running almost full heals.

    Are you telling me that the heal cleric is doing too much DPS because I beat out the "real dps" classes? No, I think the takeaway from it was that these randoms had HAMSTER DPS. Comparing your pally to random people is the worst way you could possibly test something. Let's not even leave off the fact that if you don't control the testing you have no idea what you're testing against. 4 morons? 4 badly built toons? Just silly.

    You post around about content being too easy in one thread than saying you can't beat the first boss in LOMM cause it was too hard in another. You belittle someone's theoretical math in one thread while salivating over the paingiver (a universally mocked method of testing) in another.

    Warlocks have no AOE, Cleric DPS is bad, I really don't know what game you are playing but I'm starting to see a consistent pattern and it's not the classes.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    You’re entitled to an opinion, just like the rest of us.

    But opinions are not facts.

    Those of us that spend a lot of time playing tank paladins at the pointy end of the game have a lot of evidence to draw from and it always looks like this;

    Good group = Lower Tank Damage
    Bad Group = Higher Tank Damage

    PUGs can range from awesome groups to absolutely terrible groups. The tanks damage will reflect that in the hands of a good player.

    I’ve gotten into RLQ with a second tank and they have been at the bottom of the table while I’ve been at the top with the 3 DPS between. Random queues are a data point, but they do not tell you much about the classes at all.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • bajancloakbajancloak Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 30 Arc User
    Interesting. I have a Pally Alt (19k) with 90k Power that I play sometimes, and the only time I have beaten a DPS class is if they where a lot lower ILVL than I was, or had way lower power than I did. I find it hard to believe that that's been your experience, but so be it.

    In those instances that you have seen, have you actually checked the gear etc of those beaten dps classes?

    Random Queue or Public queue it doesn't matter. They still don't give you enough valid data to justify your statement that Pally Tanks do more dps than actual dps classes.

  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User


    when i say random groups i dont mean random queue, i mean the group i get is random because i queue for the dungeon publicly. i don't do RLQ RIQ RAQ or REQ

    and i'm not just talking about the dungeons i do with public groups, even in private groups that friends make i notice this same trend of paladin tank doing more dps then actual dps classes.

    If you are not using a pre-selected group, regardless of how that pre-selected group queues, and are just queuing for a dungeon and taking who turns up - those people are coming from Random Queue. That's how the system works.

    I can top DPS charts simply because RA+BL is enough to wipe or near wipe stuff in the lower iL dungeons/skirmishes. Its the same old thing that applies to DPS, the one who gets there first gets the most dps, and in this new world paladins have 80' hard hitting attacks just like DPS.

    Yet still, good DPS will finish in front of me, every time.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • karvarekarvare Member Posts: 264 Arc User
    As someone who PUG queues a large amount, I disagree with the assumption. My paladin will out DPS weak DPSers, but equal or better and my damage is down to 1/2 to 1/3rd of the DPS.

    PUG groups are a terrible example of play to balance off of. The worst groups are random PUGS.
  • durugudesudurugudesu Member Posts: 555 Arc User
    Ive seen op tank/heals do so much damage in lotmm. One of the reasons here is that his offensive stats were capped, and built his toon pretty much as you would build a dps one.

    If i am in a party and the damage output is on the low side, then the op shows up a lot in the paingiver, since enemies dont die as fast.

    It can solo a mimic and burn it fast and probably enough to kill 2 if the dps of the group is on the low side.

    It makes me feel like my ranger looks weak when looking at the paingiver, but overall it makes the run smoother so there really isnt any problem at all.

    When we duo queue for random queues, whether he goes on heals/tanks and me on dc/gf(also heal and tank), almost always he gets top in paingiver if there isn't any "outstanding" player that performs better than average, but when there is, then his damage is just below them, on the high side, but is of what youd expect from people playing their roles efficiently.

    The point is, i agree with you that op can deal a lot of damage, but so does other classes when youve built it and play it right.

    I would argue to raise the damage of cleric/sw heals and barb/gf tanks instead of asking for a reduction of op damage.
  • fyrstigorfyrstigor Member Posts: 299 Arc User

    nothing, but the problem is in the balance. for example paladin tank is "support" in your view. so then any non dps is support right? so a healer is "support". my problem is that 1 support is doing 3-4 times the dps of any other "support"....cleric has a dps path, and if i run that path i can barely do more dps then a paladin. if i run healer they do easily 2-3 times my dps. i've yet to see a single fighter tank that didnt come in last on the chart for damage dealt.

    I got tossed into eToS for a random queue and was under 100k out of being in first on the paingiver....on my healer cleric running almost full heals.

    Are you telling me that the heal cleric is doing too much DPS because I beat out the "real dps" classes? No, I think the takeaway from it was that these randoms had HAMSTER DPS. Comparing your pally to random people is the worst way you could possibly test something. Let's not even leave off the fact that if you don't control the testing you have no idea what you're testing against. 4 morons? 4 badly built toons? Just silly.

    You post around about content being too easy in one thread than saying you can't beat the first boss in LOMM cause it was too hard in another. You belittle someone's theoretical math in one thread while salivating over the paingiver (a universally mocked method of testing) in another.

    Warlocks have no AOE, Cleric DPS is bad, I really don't know what game you are playing but I'm starting to see a consistent pattern and it's not the classes.
    I had problems with the first boss of lomm because for one it was buggy when it first came out and for 2 i kept getting bad dps. I've beaten it fine with a good team. I'm not comparing my pally to anything. all i did was mention that I have a paladin.
    Salavating over paingiver? sorry but i don't recall this. I said I thought it was there to see who did the most damage, and that I personally have always used it to compare damage.

    we're all entitled to our own opinions, you don't have to agree with me, but mocking and berating someone is bad manners....and also just plain rude.
    Ive done several 100 LoMM since day one. Only ever seen 2 bugs. Augments didnt give stats correctly after cutscene, update pet fixed this so was no reason for fails. Some times the mimics go on endless mode and unless u had very strong group it would be easier to wipe and just start over.

    For bad dps, well thats ur own choice really. Ive done LoMM will just about the bare minimum DPS. I was on tank, i had to solo mimics in my corner. All other 3 dps was low dps, but had just enough to kill their mimics. The run was pretty smooth though, 50 min, 1 wipe at first boss. And i ended top dps on my tank.
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