So i wonder, what type are u? The one that afks or the one that refuse to learn the simple mechanics ?
Neither. I'm one of the old player that has seen failure and success run for Tiamat since its launch. People has been blaming ilevel just like in the past when tiamat first launch. Only when one of the old player start posting tutorial and guide on the forum, the number of successful run started to rise. Those zerg tactic that we practice nowadays came from those guide. Before that people tried 5 man per head which is originally intended by the developer. But It has more fail because it require more coordination. That's why people come up with zerg tactic. The developer even admit they are impressed by it back in mod 5.
Guide and tutorial are needed for new player. U said it yourself, "its your job to find other source who can explain it". What do u think the source are if its not guidance from experienced player?
And those turorials are not supposed to be in the game. Thats what the discussion is about. Its not if players need them or not. Some do some dont. The discussion is about should those tutorials be in the game. Should the game offer step by step programs because someone is to lazy to do any work to further their own knowledge ?
You know u can just press ESC if u don't need the tutorial. I don't get what's the big deal about it. If they are really lazy, they wouldn't even be bothered to go through with the tutorial. Those tutorial are for those who are willing to learn. It help those people who doesn't have time or dedicate enough to search for guide online.
Also, it always helps to have more people to know about the mechanics. In game tutorial provide people with a new source of information they need. Like those guide in the forum or fansite, they are just a source of information except ingame tutorial are more accessible. I see no reason why its a bad thing to add a new source.
If you press Esc cause YOU dont need the tutorial..are you still stuck waiting minutes for someone else to go thru it ? ...*shakes head * lol does not seem like a fair good solution ..Thats the very big deal about it ... thats why i mentioned in previous posts various brain storms / ways of going about implementing a non invasive tutorial and its problems / issues
So i wonder, what type are u? The one that afks or the one that refuse to learn the simple mechanics ?
Neither. I'm one of the old player that has seen failure and success run for Tiamat since its launch. People has been blaming ilevel just like in the past when tiamat first launch. Only when one of the old player start posting tutorial and guide on the forum, the number of successful run started to rise. Those zerg tactic that we practice nowadays came from those guide. Before that people tried 5 man per head which is originally intended by the developer. But It has more fail because it require more coordination. That's why people come up with zerg tactic. The developer even admit they are impressed by it back in mod 5.
Guide and tutorial are needed for new player. U said it yourself, "its your job to find other source who can explain it". What do u think the source are if its not guidance from experienced player?
And those turorials are not supposed to be in the game. Thats what the discussion is about. Its not if players need them or not. Some do some dont. The discussion is about should those tutorials be in the game. Should the game offer step by step programs because someone is to lazy to do any work to further their own knowledge ?
You know u can just press ESC if u don't need the tutorial. I don't get what's the big deal about it. If they are really lazy, they wouldn't even be bothered to go through with the tutorial. Those tutorial are for those who are willing to learn. It help those people who doesn't have time or dedicate enough to search for guide online.
Also, it always helps to have more people to know about the mechanics. In game tutorial provide people with a new source of information they need. Like those guide in the forum or fansite, they are just a source of information except ingame tutorial are more accessible. I see no reason why its a bad thing to add a new source.
Ingame tutorials on how to beat the game and the mechanics will create more lazy players long term who will expect everything to just be handed to them, thats not really healthy for the ques either. What will the next be? Tiamat has tutorial on how to beat mechanics, why doesnt CR ? Or LoMM ? Or any of the other places where everyone struggle when completing. And when does it stop. Why isnt there ingame tutorials on how to build ur toon, what feats to pick and powers to use. Lets get tutorials for everything since we are ok with players not having to play the game in the first place.
Yes i could just press ESC and skip it. But whats the big deal with those lazy players asking around and doing their part in learning? Why should laziness be rewarded ?
And those turorials are not supposed to be in the game. Thats what the discussion is about. Its not if players need them or not. Some do some dont. The discussion is about should those tutorials be in the game.
No, actually the discussion/OP was about problems completing Tiamat on RIQ (meaning public and probably no one you know there) and what to do about it. Is it so difficult for *you* to read and learn? You can't just pretend the discussion is something other than what it is because it helps your case... well, obviously, you can try, lol.
Ingame tutorials on how to beat the game and the mechanics will create more lazy players long term who will expect everything to just be handed to them, thats not really healthy for the ques either.
Yes i could just press ESC and skip it. But whats the big deal with those lazy players asking around and doing their part in learning? Why should laziness be rewarded ?
Tutorials tell you how to play it, not how to beat it.
So, in-game tutorials create lazy people, but tutorials outside the game don't? Just because someone wants to play instead of constantly running elsewhere to find out how to play doesn't make them lazy. To some people, this is a *game*, lol, and an action one at that. How many players, do you think, join an action game to, constantly, leave and look up tutorials and strategies?
Btw, since this is about RANDOM INTERMEDIATE, often new, players (*read*), how do you know they even know they're doing something wrong? If you paid attention, it's painfully clear that they don't. As I said before, most follow the crowd and if the crowd doesn't know what it's doing you get a fail and people wondering why and, often, deciding other players weren't good enough or the dungeon is buggy (the response I've seen most often about the Bank Heist and people voting to abandon it). Strangely, I've completed the Bank Heist most of the times it wasn't abandoned. Could it be that people learned and/or the people that didn't want to learn and claim it can't be beat left? That isn't an option in Tiamat, as I've said. Read...
You seem to be speaking from the privileged position of one who can join a pre-made group and explain things if they need explaining to people who'll listen. I, and others, aren't. I'm just a stranger telling people to do something that seems counter-intuitive.
"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser." - Socrates
If you press Esc cause YOU dont need the tutorial..are you still stuck waiting minutes for someone else to go thru it ? ...*shakes head * lol does not seem like a fair good solution ..Thats the very big deal about it ... thats why i mentioned in previous posts various brain storms / ways of going about implementing a non invasive tutorial and its problems / issues
Would you mind posting those here? I've mentioned one - teaching during play and having the chance to restart after a fail, so that learning gets a real chance to be put to use.
"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser." - Socrates
And those turorials are not supposed to be in the game. Thats what the discussion is about. Its not if players need them or not. Some do some dont. The discussion is about should those tutorials be in the game.
No, actually the discussion/OP was about problems completing Tiamat on RIQ (meaning public and probably no one you know there) and what to do about it. Is it so difficult for *you* to read and learn? You can't just pretend the discussion is something other than what it is because it helps your case... well, obviously, you can try, lol.
I was obviously refering to the discussion i was having with other people about tutorials. Not the original topic at hand. Read context and, well try again.
Ingame tutorials on how to beat the game and the mechanics will create more lazy players long term who will expect everything to just be handed to them, thats not really healthy for the ques either.
Yes i could just press ESC and skip it. But whats the big deal with those lazy players asking around and doing their part in learning? Why should laziness be rewarded ?
Tutorials tell you how to play it, not how to beat it.
So, in-game tutorials create lazy people, but tutorials outside the game don't? Just because someone wants to play instead of constantly running elsewhere to find out how to play doesn't make them lazy. To some people, this is a *game*, lol, and an action one at that. How many players, do you think, join an action game to, constantly, leave and look up tutorials and strategies?
Btw, since this is about RANDOM INTERMEDIATE, often new, players (*read*), how do you know they even know they're doing something wrong? If you paid attention, it's painfully clear that they don't. As I said before, most follow the crowd and if the crowd doesn't know what it's doing you get a fail and people wondering why and, often, deciding other players weren't good enough or the dungeon is buggy (the response I've seen most often about the Bank Heist and people voting to abandon it). Strangely, I've completed the Bank Heist most of the times it wasn't abandoned. Could it be that people learned and/or the people that didn't want to learn and claim it can't be beat left? That isn't an option in Tiamat, as I've said. Read...
You seem to be speaking from the privileged position of one who can join a pre-made group and explain things if they need explaining to people who'll listen. I, and others, aren't. I'm just a stranger telling people to do something that seems counter-intuitive.
Tutorials on how to play and hints at mechanics at hand are already in place. What people are wanting is how to beat it tutorials. And yes they do build lazy players who will expect the game telling them how to play and beat everything.
A person who tries content. Doesnt understand it, or only gets parts of it who then ask questions, look for help, look for tutorials are not what i would call a lazy person. Atleast they are doing something to get better for next time. Not just throw their hands up in the air and claim its bugged or unbeatable.
If u fail a dungeon over and over again. Most often the group is doing something wrong, and specially when its in random ques. Bugs happen ofc. So its good that there are guild available in the game u can join and then ask the veteran players who spend more time in game whats bugged and whats not.
Everyone have the option to join premade groups. Everyone have the option to join a good guild and get help. Ive had to explain mechanics plenty of times to strangers myself in random ques. And those who repeatedly dont listen will be kicked by those who do and wanna complete.
Some of the trials u cant restart, so that makes it a bit more frustrating. So anyone in for instance a failed tiamat, if they go ask their guildies why they failed after and learn from their mistakes. Next time they get tiamat they can be the helpfull one, or at least not be the one causing them to fail. Then in the long run everyone will know, or enough will know so that tiamat again will be easy clears. What most here is wanting is some system that removes the need for players to learn and figure out things, to remove the learning curve.
So i wonder, what type are u? The one that afks or the one that refuse to learn the simple mechanics ?
Neither. I'm one of the old player that has seen failure and success run for Tiamat since its launch. People has been blaming ilevel just like in the past when tiamat first launch. Only when one of the old player start posting tutorial and guide on the forum, the number of successful run started to rise. Those zerg tactic that we practice nowadays came from those guide. Before that people tried 5 man per head which is originally intended by the developer. But It has more fail because it require more coordination. That's why people come up with zerg tactic. The developer even admit they are impressed by it back in mod 5.
Guide and tutorial are needed for new player. U said it yourself, "its your job to find other source who can explain it". What do u think the source are if its not guidance from experienced player?
And those turorials are not supposed to be in the game. Thats what the discussion is about. Its not if players need them or not. Some do some dont. The discussion is about should those tutorials be in the game. Should the game offer step by step programs because someone is to lazy to do any work to further their own knowledge ?
You know u can just press ESC if u don't need the tutorial. I don't get what's the big deal about it. If they are really lazy, they wouldn't even be bothered to go through with the tutorial. Those tutorial are for those who are willing to learn. It help those people who doesn't have time or dedicate enough to search for guide online.
Also, it always helps to have more people to know about the mechanics. In game tutorial provide people with a new source of information they need. Like those guide in the forum or fansite, they are just a source of information except ingame tutorial are more accessible. I see no reason why its a bad thing to add a new source.
If you press Esc cause YOU dont need the tutorial..are you still stuck waiting minutes for someone else to go thru it ? ...*shakes head * lol does not seem like a fair good solution ..Thats the very big deal about it ... thats why i mentioned in previous posts various brain storms / ways of going about implementing a non invasive tutorial and its problems / issues
Is waiting for a few sec really that hard to bear for new people to learn mechanic? Nvm I forgot you are that 26k ilevel guy who is able to carry the whole team even if they don't play by the mechanic. Well since I'm not capable of that, I rather wait a few sec for people to understand the mechanic than watch the run fail.
However, the only thing I disagree with the tutorial is that Demogorgon tutorial no longer keep people in the campfire when u cancel it unlike in the past. I don't know if its a bug but for that case, I agree is unfair to people since Demogorgon start to attack people that cancel the tutorial early and people started to get stack of madness without any blue well spawned. The developer should have revert back to its original script where people are still behind the blue wall when they cancel the tutorial.
So i wonder, what type are u? The one that afks or the one that refuse to learn the simple mechanics ?
Neither. I'm one of the old player that has seen failure and success run for Tiamat since its launch. People has been blaming ilevel just like in the past when tiamat first launch. Only when one of the old player start posting tutorial and guide on the forum, the number of successful run started to rise. Those zerg tactic that we practice nowadays came from those guide. Before that people tried 5 man per head which is originally intended by the developer. But It has more fail because it require more coordination. That's why people come up with zerg tactic. The developer even admit they are impressed by it back in mod 5.
Guide and tutorial are needed for new player. U said it yourself, "its your job to find other source who can explain it". What do u think the source are if its not guidance from experienced player?
And those turorials are not supposed to be in the game. Thats what the discussion is about. Its not if players need them or not. Some do some dont. The discussion is about should those tutorials be in the game. Should the game offer step by step programs because someone is to lazy to do any work to further their own knowledge ?
You know u can just press ESC if u don't need the tutorial. I don't get what's the big deal about it. If they are really lazy, they wouldn't even be bothered to go through with the tutorial. Those tutorial are for those who are willing to learn. It help those people who doesn't have time or dedicate enough to search for guide online.
Also, it always helps to have more people to know about the mechanics. In game tutorial provide people with a new source of information they need. Like those guide in the forum or fansite, they are just a source of information except ingame tutorial are more accessible. I see no reason why its a bad thing to add a new source.
Ingame tutorials on how to beat the game and the mechanics will create more lazy players long term who will expect everything to just be handed to them, thats not really healthy for the ques either. What will the next be? Tiamat has tutorial on how to beat mechanics, why doesnt CR ? Or LoMM ? Or any of the other places where everyone struggle when completing. And when does it stop. Why isnt there ingame tutorials on how to build ur toon, what feats to pick and powers to use. Lets get tutorials for everything since we are ok with players not having to play the game in the first place.
Yes i could just press ESC and skip it. But whats the big deal with those lazy players asking around and doing their part in learning? Why should laziness be rewarded ?
Well I only expect Tiamat tutorial to brief player about basic mechanics like the existence of dragon gem and how to obtain it. I certainly don't expect the tutorial to brief people about zerg tactics or about whatever tactics to win the game. So I see no reason why those tutorial are unhealthy.
And those turorials are not supposed to be in the game. Thats what the discussion is about. Its not if players need them or not. Some do some dont. The discussion is about should those tutorials be in the game.
No, actually the discussion/OP was about problems completing Tiamat on RIQ (meaning public and probably no one you know there) and what to do about it. Is it so difficult for *you* to read and learn? You can't just pretend the discussion is something other than what it is because it helps your case... well, obviously, you can try, lol.
I was obviously refering to the discussion i was having with other people about tutorials. Not the original topic at hand. Read context and, well try again.
Obviously, lol, that was not obvious to me. It's funny, though, how you tell others to read, but won't, yourself (I have to keep repeating, to you, to read what was said).
Tutorials on how to play and hints at mechanics at hand are already in place. What people are wanting is how to beat it tutorials. And yes they do build lazy players who will expect the game telling them how to play and beat everything.
A person who tries content. Doesnt understand it, or only gets parts of it who then ask questions, look for help, look for tutorials are not what i would call a lazy person. Atleast they are doing something to get better for next time. Not just throw their hands up in the air and claim its bugged or unbeatable.
As I was saying in a post that got deleted from editing, a lot of people seem to miss the gem thing for whatever reason. Obviously, lol, these in-game tutorials and hints you speak of aren't doing a very good job. As for your "lazy players", that's a matter of opinion and perspective. How people prefer to play and enjoy the game isn't up to you or me (if you don't want a tutorial, ignore it).
*Hypothetically* (don't skip that word), how about if I call "lazy" on those people who look up mechanics (or class builds, or whatever, for that matter), ask for help, etc instead of playing it, several... or hundreds... or thousands... or infinite times until they figure it out (pre-mod16, end of mod14, I built my Whisperknife and first character with no help, flailed around, lol, figured out how to play my custom build and beat Barovia, though couldn't quite solo CoW or Bonegrinder... close, though)? I mean someone who looks up the info, in any way, is "lazier" than someone who learns, purely, by trial and error, right? I agree with your last sentence, there, the *only* players I would call "lazy" are the ones who refuse, even, to try to learn, no matter the method (trial and error, tutorials, whatever), like the Bank Heist whiners I've mentioned.
Everyone have the option to join premade groups. Everyone have the option to join a good guild and get help. Ive had to explain mechanics plenty of times to strangers myself in random ques. And those who repeatedly dont listen will be kicked by those who do and wanna complete.
Some of the trials u cant restart, so that makes it a bit more frustrating. So anyone in for instance a failed tiamat, if they go ask their guildies why they failed after and learn from their mistakes. Next time they get tiamat they can be the helpfull one, or at least not be the one causing them to fail. Then in the long run everyone will know, or enough will know so that tiamat again will be easy clears. What most here is wanting is some system that removes the need for players to learn and figure out things, to remove the learning curve.
Again, I'll repeat, read what was said (not just by me), I won't repeat it, lol. No, *everyone* does NOT have those options just because you do. I've, also, rarely seen anyone kicked from Tiamat (mainly when they've disconnected for a while). Generally, that ensures a fail on Tiamat since it's time limited and it's rude to ask for new players after the very beginning (after the gems).
I have no problem with people learning from guildies, just hope they learn *somehow* (remember my questioning your definition of "laziness", above?), but maybe you didn't "read what was said"... again.
how do you know they even know they're doing something wrong? If you paid attention, it's painfully clear that they don't. As I said before, most follow the crowd and if the crowd doesn't know what it's doing you get a fail and people wondering why and, often, deciding other players weren't good enough or the dungeon is buggy (the response I've seen most often about the Bank Heist and people voting to abandon it).
Unlike the Bank Heist, and like I've already said, learning in-game, then being forced into a new queue just as you've started to learn isn't helpful. You've said you don't read tutorials, except as a last resort. I believe you also said people learn at different speeds, which is correct. Now, imagine yourself as a medium or slow learner. You come into Tiamat, read each in-game direction as it comes ("Prepare for Battle", etc) and follow others for an extra view on what to do, besides the short instructions (maybe you, even, miss the gem thing).
So, without anyone calling out, you fight summoners, one at a time, like most groups, then fight what's-his-name, then fight anything showing up near the clerics (possibly unsure which one you should go to, lol), hopefully avoiding the red. Next the heads... again, which one, maybe where everyone else is going? Yeah, let's do that. Ok, attack, attack, attack - "dead head", lol, next one, please. What's that non-red circle that appeared? I think I'll get in it and see if it does anything - dead before I got there. Oh, suddenly back to clerics. I don't know, 3.5+ more heads to go and we have to fight clerics, again? Ok, back to heads, time's low, we better hit hard and fast. WTH, back to clerics again? FAIL. Man, I hope I get a better group next time. Several tries later: WTH, I'll check back, occasionally, to see if this thing is fixed.
With calling out, you may have missed the gems before some started paying attention and you followed people playing the mechanics right, maybe because you also listened or maybe because you just saw everyone else doing it. Things were close, but it was still a fail. If you were just following, you still end up thinking what the person in the previous paragraph thought. If you listened, you get thrown into a new group and may or may not have the experience, confidence, skill (yeah, calling out directions, in a way people understand, while fighting is a skill) or desire to call out. For health reasons, I don't have the desire to call out, but do, sometimes, anyway. I just see a fail coming and feel like, meh... annoying, and hope I don't see Tiamat for several weeks, hoping more people have learned it.
Sure, loooooong term, things *might* get better, but I agree with @autumnwitch that people may not hang around that long.
"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser." - Socrates
So I see no reason why those tutorial are unhealthy.
Well, some development resources is needed to put together a tutorial. But consider this, are there tutorials for any other runs? Not that I know of. Not any of the end game runs. Players figure it out and, over time, it becomes community knowledge. Tiamat is a really old run at this point. Should be plenty of players who know what to do. Getting organized is another matter.
Is waiting for a few sec really that hard to bear for new people to learn mechanic? Nvm I forgot you are that 26k ilevel guy who is able to carry the whole team even if they don't play by the mechanic. Well since I'm not capable of that, I rather wait a few sec for people to understand the mechanic than watch the run fail.
However, the only thing I disagree with the tutorial is that Demogorgon tutorial no longer keep people in the campfire when u cancel it unlike in the past. I don't know if its a bug but for that case, I agree is unfair to people since Demogorgon start to attack people that cancel the tutorial early and people started to get stack of madness without any blue well spawned. The developer should have revert back to its original script where people are still behind the blue wall when they cancel the tutorial.
Well I only expect Tiamat tutorial to brief player about basic mechanics like the existence of dragon gem and how to obtain it. I certainly don't expect the tutorial to brief people about zerg tactics or about whatever tactics to win the game. So I see no reason why those tutorial are unhealthy.
This is almost exactly what I said in my "deleted by editing" post. How is it so horrible for people to wait the time it takes to read and absorb something like, "Kill summoners and take gems. Use gem on same color head where gem was taken from. Heads regen to x% if not all heads killed in a round." Hell, anyone who's even watched popular films based on Greek mythology should know that hydras regrow their heads. Apparently, they don't and I'm sitting here wondering where Marduk is, lol.
Anyway, I left out the fact that you should only bring the heads down to x% before final round because, like you, I don't think everything should be given away. I tend to think players will get the idea to move on to the next head because of that "tutorial" or, at least, listen to someone who does more often than they do now.
"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser." - Socrates
Ive seen plenty of people not know about the gems. Ive told plenty of people about the gems. And some still dont get it. Some see the gems, know about the gems, but have no clue where to get them or how to use them. Even after being told to. At this point a picture guide is needed to make sure everyone know whats going on. And then the same color thing on top of that. And when should they active the gem? What when everyone just pops the gem when they get to the head, and the group then gets viped anyway, who is to blame ? the tutorial that didnt explain everything perfectly? or the player who just needs to practice?
By making a tutorial u accept that the responsibility of learning mechanics isnt on the player, but on the game. Figuring this out is no longer the players responsibility but something the game should hand to them.
How in dept would a tutorial need to be for everyone to understand it first time, and all tiamats always succeed?
And what about all the other dungeons that fail often in random ques ? Do they need tutorials too? Since tiamat got one, they should all get one.
So I see no reason why those tutorial are unhealthy.
Well, some development resources is needed to put together a tutorial. But consider this, are there tutorials for any other runs? Not that I know of. Not any of the end game runs. Players figure it out and, over time, it becomes community knowledge. Tiamat is a really old run at this point. Should be plenty of players who know what to do. Getting organized is another matter.
If its simple as u think, there wont be so many fail with the new Tiamat. Tiamat is a complex dungeon filled with mechanic. If its not for the past guide I read from the forum, I am still wondering what's the red, blue and green color shade hovering above peoples head and where to get the dragon gem. Information can be passed on through many means. By zone chat, guildies, forum, fansite etc. Tutorial are just one of them to speed up the process. Whether if the development resources are worth the while are developer alone to decide. Not u. Not me. Not anyone else.
Ive seen plenty of people not know about the gems. Ive told plenty of people about the gems. And some still dont get it. Some see the gems, know about the gems, but have no clue where to get them or how to use them. Even after being told to. At this point a picture guide is needed to make sure everyone know whats going on. And then the same color thing on top of that. And when should they active the gem? What when everyone just pops the gem when they get to the head, and the group then gets viped anyway, who is to blame ? the tutorial that didnt explain everything perfectly? or the player who just needs to practice?
By making a tutorial u accept that the responsibility of learning mechanics isnt on the player, but on the game. Figuring this out is no longer the players responsibility but something the game should hand to them.
How in dept would a tutorial need to be for everyone to understand it first time, and all tiamats always succeed?
And what about all the other dungeons that fail often in random ques ? Do they need tutorials too? Since tiamat got one, they should all get one.
Not sure why I'm still replying to you since you ignore/don't read much of what I and others have said and you're being a bit of troll, now. Most of your post was nonsense, used when someone has no argument to make for their case.
No one, anywhere, learns and understands EVERYTHING first time, but if there's a good teacher, the majority *can* learn. Unless they quit, prematurely (meaning they didn't give the teacher a chance), the student is never to blame, it's always on the teacher to find the best way to teach or to be fired if they're constantly ignoring a students learning needs and making them feel worthless. And the idea of ALWAYS succeeding, no matter how good the teacher, is just ridiculous.
Some dungeons don't need a tutorial - you really do just go kill everything. Others, such as Demogorgon, do have a simple tutorial that you can skip.
"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser." - Socrates
Also, dragon gem should be dropped on the ground once a player abandon the quest. Its just unfair to the group that the gem is gone just because one person with the gem decides to quit. The gem should be drop to the ground so other player could carry on with the duty especially when there is no way to get it after the summoner phase.
I abandon it every single time, since it's a waste of time anyway (it fails unless lucky to be in very good group). On top of that companions not working, so no fun to do painful stuff like this (working on alts for now until they fix companions).
Ive seen plenty of people not know about the gems. Ive told plenty of people about the gems. And some still dont get it. Some see the gems, know about the gems, but have no clue where to get them or how to use them. Even after being told to. At this point a picture guide is needed to make sure everyone know whats going on. And then the same color thing on top of that. And when should they active the gem? What when everyone just pops the gem when they get to the head, and the group then gets viped anyway, who is to blame ? the tutorial that didnt explain everything perfectly? or the player who just needs to practice?
By making a tutorial u accept that the responsibility of learning mechanics isnt on the player, but on the game. Figuring this out is no longer the players responsibility but something the game should hand to them.
How in dept would a tutorial need to be for everyone to understand it first time, and all tiamats always succeed?
And what about all the other dungeons that fail often in random ques ? Do they need tutorials too? Since tiamat got one, they should all get one.
Not sure why I'm still replying to you since you ignore/don't read much of what I and others have said and you're being a bit of troll, now. Most of your post was nonsense, used when someone has no argument to make for their case.
No one, anywhere, learns and understands EVERYTHING first time, but if there's a good teacher, the majority *can* learn. Unless they quit, prematurely (meaning they didn't give the teacher a chance), the student is never to blame, it's always on the teacher to find the best way to teach or to be fired if they're constantly ignoring a students learning needs and making them feel worthless. And the idea of ALWAYS succeeding, no matter how good the teacher, is just ridiculous.
Some dungeons don't need a tutorial - you really do just go kill everything. Others, such as Demogorgon, do have a simple tutorial that you can skip.
I guess u never heard of the phrase "the student is responsible for their own learning" ? Its a pretty common thing in my country. I know its not like that everywhere. Some places a teacher is blamed no matter how much the student is refusing to learn.
U think some dungeons doesnt need a tutorial. Some think every dungeon needs one. Tell me where the line is? How should it be decided? Ive seen countless SVA getting failed and abandoned cause no one likes to learn or listen to know who know. Does it suck, yes ofc it does. But thats part of the how random ques is. I only started to see SVA getting better clear rates, when everyone was so strong they could power through and ignore the mechanics they didnt wanna learn. Tiamat isnt any different. Before there where so many people and we where so strong all mechanics could be ignored. Now not so much. And everyone have to relearn, and that sucks. But that doesnt mean its the game responsibility to offer step by step or in depth tutorials. The wanting to learn, they trying to learn will always be on the players.
Its not any different with many other dungeons. Wolfden, Cragmire crypts, MSP, TONG, CR. All of those places ive seen and had fails on random groups, because most just expect to go in, burst though and ignore mechanics. Ive also explained and tried to help many people in random ques to understand mechanics so we can clear it. And why should the burden of a player learning mechanics be put on the game and not the players themselves ? Its never been that before. Never in 6 years of NW life has it been this way. And now suddenly cause u all cant ignore mechanics and 1 shot everything u think its the games fault for not teaching u the right way ?
Maybe try to change the players mind instead, make them wanna learn stuff. Make them wanna teach others. Instead of trying to get the game to do all the work so u can sit back, relax and not work for anything.
When new content comes out, everyone is on the forums crying about it being impossible to beat. Then someone beats it, everyone else learns and then its common knowledge and its easy to complete. Tiamat is no different. The only thing thats different is now instead of it being the endgame players who wants to learn and wants to complete stuff thats having issues. Its the casual common guy who is expecting to be carried that is having problems and crying here on forums.
I abandon it every single time, since it's a waste of time anyway (it fails unless lucky to be in very good group). On top of that companions not working, so no fun to do painful stuff like this (working on alts for now until they fix companions).
What seems to be the problem with ur companion ? I havnt seen any problems with mine, in any content since they fixed the cutscene bugs on LoMM.
A little background on the OP: I am not a kid, I am a granny with the "rheumatis" and I am fairly new to the game, having played for about 18 months. I did the old Tiamat many many times and tried to learn the dungeon the best I could during the mad dashes from here to there and back again that made my head spin. The guild I am in was small but we just joined a larger alliance so I am hoping to get into some groups that know the dungeons and can direct people through.
However, I still maintain that Tiamat in its current form needs a tutorial that can be absorbed outside the heat of combat so that everyone can learn the mechanics of this very important dungeon. Also, unless and until that tutorial is amassed, this dungeon should not be in in RIQ.
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tassedethe13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 806Arc User
Try typing tiamat tutorial on google, there are plenty of videos, or images explaining what to do. They are 3 years old, but still can be useful.
@fyrstigor some people are experiencing issues with non-augment companions not healing/attacking/defending properly. And as for the cutscene bug in LoMM that severly nerfed companion stats, I actually saw it on Sunday, running edemo(through RAQ). Couldn't figure out why my damage was lower than normal, checked stats, much lower. Did the little auto-update click for companion and stats and damage moved right back to normal.
@fyrstigor some people are experiencing issues with non-augment companions not healing/attacking/defending properly. And as for the cutscene bug in LoMM that severly nerfed companion stats, I actually saw it on Sunday, running edemo(through RAQ). Couldn't figure out why my damage was lower than normal, checked stats, much lower. Did the little auto-update click for companion and stats and damage moved right back to normal.
Ahh, attacking pets. Only use one of those, thats why i hadnt seen it. Hope they will be fixed soon then.
The stat bug can happen anywhere in any dungeon. Its just a chance not a 100% thing like LoMM cutscene. But every time u get the gather party circle, there is a small chance that when u get ported inside the room, ur pet does not. Ive seen it happen a few times on Trobrian in LoMM. And many places in dungeons with stairs or things u need to jump over, ur pet cant do many of those things, so what it does is teleport to u when ur to far ahead, but if ur in combat it cant teleport to u.
Specially in LoMM the first part i have to do the update pet trick several times to make sure i have my full stats all the time.
Try typing tiamat tutorial on google, there are plenty of videos, or images explaining what to do. They are 3 years old, but still can be useful.
Fortunate for those players who visit this forum and have look upon your advice. Sadly, its unfortunate for those that don't even visit the forum. Its even unfortunate, when those player join your group and messes up your run.
I guess u never heard of the phrase "the student is responsible for their own learning" ? Its a pretty common thing in my country. I know its not like that everywhere. Some places a teacher is blamed no matter how much the student is refusing to learn.
"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser." - Socrates
What seems to be the problem with ur companion ? I havnt seen any problems with mine, in any content since they fixed the cutscene bugs on LoMM.
Well, where do I start? 1) They no longer heal (those +250 hp heals in combat is nothing, it's like 100 times less heals than it was before U16, healing outside of combat is a different thing, I'm talking about heals in combat where it's important) 2) They no longer do dmg (looks like also about 100 times less dmg than they did before U16) 3) I'm not using tank companions, but many complained about them being useless after U16 Does that answer the question?
I guess u never heard of the phrase "the student is responsible for their own learning" ? Its a pretty common thing in my country. I know its not like that everywhere. Some places a teacher is blamed no matter how much the student is refusing to learn.
Btw, tell that to the teen I had to help realize they weren't stupid. It turns out they were doing terrible in a class whose subject they liked. I asked about other classes and they were doing very well in a class whose subject they *disliked*. Hmm... how does that make them stupid? Asking about the teachers gave the answer. The teacher who taught the subject they disliked was kind and helpful, but the one who taught the subject they liked was arrogant and, almost literally, calling the student an idiot for not learning the way he taught. Not everyone learns the same and your little quote is wrong. How is the student responsible if the teacher doesn't teach?
The student was NOT stupid, the teacher was to blame. If a student's not doing well, the problem lies squarely with the teacher. A good teacher will look for the problem, not expect one size to fit all or be critical of the student unless the student is, clearly, not trying at all (just sits there scribbling, doesn't come to class, whatever - even then, you need to ask WHY the student is behaving that way before coming to any conclusions).
This seems to parallel what's happening with Tiamat. The majority don't seem to be learning, the majority here think there needs to be a better way help people learn Tiamat and you've already made fun of someone, here, who didn't learn well or fast enough for you. That told me all I needed to know about you.
"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser." - Socrates
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tassedethe13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 806Arc User
Try typing tiamat tutorial on google, there are plenty of videos, or images explaining what to do. They are 3 years old, but still can be useful.
Fortunate for those players who visit this forum and have look upon your advice. Sadly, its unfortunate for those that don't even visit the forum. Its even unfortunate, when those player join your group and messes up your run.
Does that kind of player really bother to learn a strat even explained in game ? You can lead a donkey to water, but you can't make it drink.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
I consider the difficulty just right. Have done it in guild/alliance runs, with a mix of "old-timers" and "newbies". We make sure everyone understands the tactics before going in, and people know what to do about the gems (and when to use each one, which is very important). We beat it very comfortably in two passes. Now, a full group of experience IL 25K+ players can probably beat it in a single pass, but there is really no pint in doing that.
Random groups, however....in particular random groups with people that don't follow instructions, take gems and don't use them, or die over and over...well, those are problematic.
Hoping for improvements...
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darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,259Arc User
Random groups, however....in particular random groups with people that don't follow instructions, take gems and don't use them, or die over and over...well, those are problematic.
But those people are problematic in any dungeon, so is not a problem with this trial like people is saying.
The problem is that lots of bad players are used to have success in some trials (tiamat + demogorgon) even if all the players are mediocre.
Comments
does not seem like a fair good solution ..Thats the very big deal about it ... thats why i mentioned in previous posts various brain storms / ways of going about implementing a non invasive tutorial and its problems / issues
Yes i could just press ESC and skip it. But whats the big deal with those lazy players asking around and doing their part in learning? Why should laziness be rewarded ?
So, in-game tutorials create lazy people, but tutorials outside the game don't? Just because someone wants to play instead of constantly running elsewhere to find out how to play doesn't make them lazy. To some people, this is a *game*, lol, and an action one at that. How many players, do you think, join an action game to, constantly, leave and look up tutorials and strategies?
Btw, since this is about RANDOM INTERMEDIATE, often new, players (*read*), how do you know they even know they're doing something wrong? If you paid attention, it's painfully clear that they don't. As I said before, most follow the crowd and if the crowd doesn't know what it's doing you get a fail and people wondering why and, often, deciding other players weren't good enough or the dungeon is buggy (the response I've seen most often about the Bank Heist and people voting to abandon it). Strangely, I've completed the Bank Heist most of the times it wasn't abandoned. Could it be that people learned and/or the people that didn't want to learn and claim it can't be beat left? That isn't an option in Tiamat, as I've said. Read...
You seem to be speaking from the privileged position of one who can join a pre-made group and explain things if they need explaining to people who'll listen. I, and others, aren't. I'm just a stranger telling people to do something that seems counter-intuitive.
Tutorials on how to play and hints at mechanics at hand are already in place. What people are wanting is how to beat it tutorials. And yes they do build lazy players who will expect the game telling them how to play and beat everything.
A person who tries content. Doesnt understand it, or only gets parts of it who then ask questions, look for help, look for tutorials are not what i would call a lazy person. Atleast they are doing something to get better for next time. Not just throw their hands up in the air and claim its bugged or unbeatable.
If u fail a dungeon over and over again. Most often the group is doing something wrong, and specially when its in random ques. Bugs happen ofc. So its good that there are guild available in the game u can join and then ask the veteran players who spend more time in game whats bugged and whats not.
Everyone have the option to join premade groups. Everyone have the option to join a good guild and get help. Ive had to explain mechanics plenty of times to strangers myself in random ques. And those who repeatedly dont listen will be kicked by those who do and wanna complete.
Some of the trials u cant restart, so that makes it a bit more frustrating. So anyone in for instance a failed tiamat, if they go ask their guildies why they failed after and learn from their mistakes. Next time they get tiamat they can be the helpfull one, or at least not be the one causing them to fail. Then in the long run everyone will know, or enough will know so that tiamat again will be easy clears. What most here is wanting is some system that removes the need for players to learn and figure out things, to remove the learning curve.
However, the only thing I disagree with the tutorial is that Demogorgon tutorial no longer keep people in the campfire when u cancel it unlike in the past. I don't know if its a bug but for that case, I agree is unfair to people since Demogorgon start to attack people that cancel the tutorial early and people started to get stack of madness without any blue well spawned. The developer should have revert back to its original script where people are still behind the blue wall when they cancel the tutorial.
*Hypothetically* (don't skip that word), how about if I call "lazy" on those people who look up mechanics (or class builds, or whatever, for that matter), ask for help, etc instead of playing it, several... or hundreds... or thousands... or infinite times until they figure it out (pre-mod16, end of mod14, I built my Whisperknife and first character with no help, flailed around, lol, figured out how to play my custom build and beat Barovia, though couldn't quite solo CoW or Bonegrinder... close, though)? I mean someone who looks up the info, in any way, is "lazier" than someone who learns, purely, by trial and error, right? I agree with your last sentence, there, the *only* players I would call "lazy" are the ones who refuse, even, to try to learn, no matter the method (trial and error, tutorials, whatever), like the Bank Heist whiners I've mentioned. Again, I'll repeat, read what was said (not just by me), I won't repeat it, lol. No, *everyone* does NOT have those options just because you do. I've, also, rarely seen anyone kicked from Tiamat (mainly when they've disconnected for a while). Generally, that ensures a fail on Tiamat since it's time limited and it's rude to ask for new players after the very beginning (after the gems).
I have no problem with people learning from guildies, just hope they learn *somehow* (remember my questioning your definition of "laziness", above?), but maybe you didn't "read what was said"... again. Unlike the Bank Heist, and like I've already said, learning in-game, then being forced into a new queue just as you've started to learn isn't helpful. You've said you don't read tutorials, except as a last resort. I believe you also said people learn at different speeds, which is correct. Now, imagine yourself as a medium or slow learner. You come into Tiamat, read each in-game direction as it comes ("Prepare for Battle", etc) and follow others for an extra view on what to do, besides the short instructions (maybe you, even, miss the gem thing).
So, without anyone calling out, you fight summoners, one at a time, like most groups, then fight what's-his-name, then fight anything showing up near the clerics (possibly unsure which one you should go to, lol), hopefully avoiding the red. Next the heads... again, which one, maybe where everyone else is going? Yeah, let's do that. Ok, attack, attack, attack - "dead head", lol, next one, please. What's that non-red circle that appeared? I think I'll get in it and see if it does anything - dead before I got there. Oh, suddenly back to clerics. I don't know, 3.5+ more heads to go and we have to fight clerics, again? Ok, back to heads, time's low, we better hit hard and fast. WTH, back to clerics again? FAIL. Man, I hope I get a better group next time. Several tries later: WTH, I'll check back, occasionally, to see if this thing is fixed.
With calling out, you may have missed the gems before some started paying attention and you followed people playing the mechanics right, maybe because you also listened or maybe because you just saw everyone else doing it. Things were close, but it was still a fail. If you were just following, you still end up thinking what the person in the previous paragraph thought. If you listened, you get thrown into a new group and may or may not have the experience, confidence, skill (yeah, calling out directions, in a way people understand, while fighting is a skill) or desire to call out. For health reasons, I don't have the desire to call out, but do, sometimes, anyway. I just see a fail coming and feel like, meh... annoying, and hope I don't see Tiamat for several weeks, hoping more people have learned it.
Sure, loooooong term, things *might* get better, but I agree with @autumnwitch that people may not hang around that long.
Anyway, I left out the fact that you should only bring the heads down to x% before final round because, like you, I don't think everything should be given away. I tend to think players will get the idea to move on to the next head because of that "tutorial" or, at least, listen to someone who does more often than they do now.
By making a tutorial u accept that the responsibility of learning mechanics isnt on the player, but on the game. Figuring this out is no longer the players responsibility but something the game should hand to them.
How in dept would a tutorial need to be for everyone to understand it first time, and all tiamats always succeed?
And what about all the other dungeons that fail often in random ques ? Do they need tutorials too? Since tiamat got one, they should all get one.
No one, anywhere, learns and understands EVERYTHING first time, but if there's a good teacher, the majority *can* learn. Unless they quit, prematurely (meaning they didn't give the teacher a chance), the student is never to blame, it's always on the teacher to find the best way to teach or to be fired if they're constantly ignoring a students learning needs and making them feel worthless. And the idea of ALWAYS succeeding, no matter how good the teacher, is just ridiculous.
Some dungeons don't need a tutorial - you really do just go kill everything. Others, such as Demogorgon, do have a simple tutorial that you can skip.
On top of that companions not working, so no fun to do painful stuff like this (working on alts for now until they fix companions).
U think some dungeons doesnt need a tutorial. Some think every dungeon needs one. Tell me where the line is? How should it be decided? Ive seen countless SVA getting failed and abandoned cause no one likes to learn or listen to know who know. Does it suck, yes ofc it does. But thats part of the how random ques is. I only started to see SVA getting better clear rates, when everyone was so strong they could power through and ignore the mechanics they didnt wanna learn. Tiamat isnt any different. Before there where so many people and we where so strong all mechanics could be ignored. Now not so much. And everyone have to relearn, and that sucks. But that doesnt mean its the game responsibility to offer step by step or in depth tutorials. The wanting to learn, they trying to learn will always be on the players.
Its not any different with many other dungeons. Wolfden, Cragmire crypts, MSP, TONG, CR. All of those places ive seen and had fails on random groups, because most just expect to go in, burst though and ignore mechanics. Ive also explained and tried to help many people in random ques to understand mechanics so we can clear it. And why should the burden of a player learning mechanics be put on the game and not the players themselves ? Its never been that before. Never in 6 years of NW life has it been this way. And now suddenly cause u all cant ignore mechanics and 1 shot everything u think its the games fault for not teaching u the right way ?
Maybe try to change the players mind instead, make them wanna learn stuff. Make them wanna teach others. Instead of trying to get the game to do all the work so u can sit back, relax and not work for anything.
When new content comes out, everyone is on the forums crying about it being impossible to beat. Then someone beats it, everyone else learns and then its common knowledge and its easy to complete. Tiamat is no different. The only thing thats different is now instead of it being the endgame players who wants to learn and wants to complete stuff thats having issues. Its the casual common guy who is expecting to be carried that is having problems and crying here on forums.
However, I still maintain that Tiamat in its current form needs a tutorial that can be absorbed outside the heat of combat so that everyone can learn the mechanics of this very important dungeon. Also, unless and until that tutorial is amassed, this dungeon should not be in in RIQ.
Couldn't figure out why my damage was lower than normal, checked stats, much lower. Did the little auto-update click for companion and stats and damage moved right back to normal.
The stat bug can happen anywhere in any dungeon. Its just a chance not a 100% thing like LoMM cutscene. But every time u get the gather party circle, there is a small chance that when u get ported inside the room, ur pet does not. Ive seen it happen a few times on Trobrian in LoMM. And many places in dungeons with stairs or things u need to jump over, ur pet cant do many of those things, so what it does is teleport to u when ur to far ahead, but if ur in combat it cant teleport to u.
Specially in LoMM the first part i have to do the update pet trick several times to make sure i have my full stats all the time.
1) They no longer heal (those +250 hp heals in combat is nothing, it's like 100 times less heals than it was before U16, healing outside of combat is a different thing, I'm talking about heals in combat where it's important)
2) They no longer do dmg (looks like also about 100 times less dmg than they did before U16)
3) I'm not using tank companions, but many complained about them being useless after U16
Does that answer the question?
The student was NOT stupid, the teacher was to blame. If a student's not doing well, the problem lies squarely with the teacher. A good teacher will look for the problem, not expect one size to fit all or be critical of the student unless the student is, clearly, not trying at all (just sits there scribbling, doesn't come to class, whatever - even then, you need to ask WHY the student is behaving that way before coming to any conclusions).
This seems to parallel what's happening with Tiamat. The majority don't seem to be learning, the majority here think there needs to be a better way help people learn Tiamat and you've already made fun of someone, here, who didn't learn well or fast enough for you. That told me all I needed to know about you.
You can lead a donkey to water, but you can't make it drink.
Random groups, however....in particular random groups with people that don't follow instructions, take gems and don't use them, or die over and over...well, those are problematic.
The problem is that lots of bad players are used to have success in some trials (tiamat + demogorgon) even if all the players are mediocre.
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