More bots than players

marvyn · June 2019

I've grumbled about bots / afk players several times already, but I was in a Demogorgon just before the reset today.

And it failed. No rewards.

https://imgur.com/sSf21Cr

And the reason for this was that at least 50% of the "players" were more interested in admiring the flames at the campfire, including both tanks.

Inevitably, as re-entering the arena caused an instant death, the result was everyone then waited outside until it completed.

Come on developers. You funnel us into random queues to obtain AD yet have given the actual players next to zero tools to deal with bots and afkers and you seemingly are not doing much (if anything) to address this.

Random content in this game has become unplayable - it's just not fun.

Sort it out please, or whines about Mod 16 will be the least of your problems.

aslan3775 · June 2019

I'm not certain that bots are the only, or even the worst issue, with random PUG runs. It seems real players will also sit at campfires, and when you ask them to come back and help, they actually leave and go to another zone.
Bank Heist started, and the 'Leader' immediately left and went to Chult. It took three or four minutes of convincing him to leave before we could get replacements to run the raid.
Tiamat (10 person-interesting idea) began and after the first phase of taking 4 minutes to kill the five summoners, at least three of the 10 people left, leaving no way for replacements to get the gems. My tank ended up doing the most damage in the failed run.
On the other hand, in the past 10 or so PUG runs, I have seen an incredible amount of cooperation in the party that we haven't had in MOD 15. Not as many people running ahead and leaving the party, even in the leveling PUGs. Sooo, if you happen to get a good group for your PUG--very enjoyable. If you get bots and drama-queens, not fun.

Gotta love Random.

asterotg · June 2019

I dont know, if it is bc no one with decent gear can be bothered, to run random dungeon anymore or bc most of these players left, but the 'quality' of the random ques went way down.

Many players run with blue leveling gear, no enchants and no artifacts. Okey, you might say, that they just started leveling up and have no gear, but, honestly, for month. You can deck out your character with FREE R 8s and purple gear from your daily undermountain runs. It seems, that ppl cant even be bothered, to do that.

You might claim, that these are alts, but these can get account bound gear from the main.

I dare you, to write something like 'really, you cant be bothered to gear up just a little? How should this work in your opinion?'. Get ready for a shitstorm of insults from bruised egos.

I know, that there is a difference in experience, gear, skills and classes, but honestly there are DPS players, who (when they participate) deal 1% of the dmg my alts deals and I had runs with geared players, who had double my characters dmg.

ATM running ETOS solo is most likely to be a faster run, then via RQ.

Due to the fact, that you cant get RADs from gear anymore, I dumped spare gear on my praying alts. No joke, they are better geared, then most players in RQs.

namelesshero347 · June 2019

I was afraid this would happen after the devs toned down the scaling. It made RLQ more attractive and brought back some of the well-geared players, like me. But it also brought back the AFK farmers, and maybe some multiboxers. Almost every one of the MotH/DL runs I had the past week or two had at least one AFK. And kicking can be challenging because I have hold back DPS until the 5 min mark so I can kick. And most of the time, the kick is voted down! I'm so fed up with RLQ now that if I see an AFK one minute into the run, I just abandon.

kalina311 · June 2019

If people leave just right click your party and ...request reinforcements and condemn more players to the same hell as you lol //

namelesshero347 · June 2019

Or suck in more AFK farmers into the run.

mentinmindmaker · June 2019

asterotg said:
I dont know, if it is bc no one with decent gear can be bothered, to run random dungeon anymore or bc most of these players left, but the 'quality' of the random ques went way down.

I have also noticed that the gear level in RLQ has taken a sharp turn downwards. Used to be my invoke alts could leech AD off RLQ easily, these days my low-geared invoke alts can be 1 or 2 on the dps parse.

To a lesser degree I also notice this in RIQ - the gear/skill level of the PUGs has taken a turn downwards.

For some reason the well-geared crowd are not present in RLQs and RIQs to the same degree.

The interesting question is why? Are they now all running LoMM and getting all the AD they need from MEs, and RAQ/REQ? Or did they just leave game in response to mod 16? Or is it rampant botting activity?

caldochaud · June 2019

namelesshero347 said:
I was afraid this would happen after the devs toned down the scaling.

Actually, I was getting stuck with whole parties of bots in random queues while the scaling was at its worst. No communication. No avoiding red-zones. Some bots just standing, following or running in circles. All of them not fighting.

Needless to say, everybody died, would not rez and I was left having to abandon the group each time this would happen... which something I have never had to do before Mod 16.

However, once the scaling was toned down, I started getting queued with actual human players.

raziel2004 · June 2019

In edemo if i saw afker or non purple portal opener i will make sure my heal will not even touch that soul. Put in ignore and if meet again in other place god forbid will do same again.. No heal for ya..

kangkeok · June 2019

The problem with low ilevel player not able to do damage is the new deflect and accuracy system which is new in this mod. In the past mod Low ilevel did better dps due to the fact that near 100% of their attack don't get deflect. Mod 16 is different. If u don't have enough accuracy, ur damage are gonna get deflect almost 90% of the time. That's like scratching less than 1% of hp off the mob. U cant blame low ilevel for that either. They just don't have the item to play with compare to high ilevel where u can just switch enchantment, companion, runestone, insignia etc. If u have a fresh independent level 70 alt that don't receive help from your main, u know what I mean. That's the same feeling we shared with fresh new player. The deflection is simply ridiculous.

In my opinion its scaling issue. The developer are just to harsh to low ilvl on the accuracy/deflect department. They should have at least tone it down just so that 50% of the damage get deflected when u have 0 accuracy and let it scale from there. Its just dumb that 90% of the damage u did just get deflected. It should be 50% of your damage u do get deflected at worst for the balance sake. And not 0%. That way, low ilevel wont be totally useless in group content and could have some contribution that bring weight to the game. Also it gives the new player a bad impression that this is a HAMSTER game. I mean what are we doing here in the dungeon when all our damage did almost nothing to the mob? That just encourage people to afk.

cherryman1 · June 2019

It almost feels like they made the randoms extra hard to combat the AFK players by making the party fail and not giving them results.

kangkeok said:
The problem with low ilevel player not able to do damage is the new deflect and accuracy system which is new in this mod. In the past mod Low ilevel did better dps due to the fact that near 100% of their attack don't get deflect. Mod 16 is different. If u don't have enough accuracy, ur damage are gonna get deflect almost 90% of the time. That's like scratching less than 1% of hp off the mob. U cant blame low ilevel for that either. They just don't have the item to play with compare to high ilevel where u can just switch enchantment, companion, runestone, insignia etc. If u have a fresh independent level 70 alt that don't receive help from your main, u know what I mean. That's the same feeling we shared with fresh new player. The deflection is simply ridiculous.

In my opinion its scaling issue. The developer are just to harsh to low ilvl on the accuracy/deflect department. They should have at least tone it down just so that 50% of the damage get deflected when u have 0 accuracy and let it scale from there. Its just dumb that 90% of the damage u did just get deflected. It should be 50% of your damage u do get deflected at worst for the balance sake. And not 0%. That way, low ilevel wont be totally useless in group content and could have some contribution that bring weight to the game. Also it gives the new player a bad impression that this is a HAMSTER game. I mean what are we doing here in the dungeon when all our damage did almost nothing to the mob? That just encourage people to afk.

This is so true for new players who are trying to earn their first amounts of AD in the game. The problem isn't that they are having trouble because they don't want to help. They can't earn the rAD to purchase the gear in the game that will help them in the content. Stronghold boons, companion bonuses and mount insignia bonuses are what you need to do random queue. Most of those cost in the hundered of thousand of AD each and up and your looking at over a million or 2 of AD to get those items even the ones that are entry level and not best in slot. When you consider this as being the entry point for a player who can make 9k rAD in random leveling per day and you see where new players are pretty much removed from being able to play the game. They get to spend hours in the randoms trying to get better party members to do the run. Even if they get 3 ME's done per day that is only 15k rAD more for them.

frogwalloper · June 2019

namelesshero347 said:
...most of the time, the kick is voted down! I'm so fed up...

Earlier this week I was in a skirmish where the leech stood just outside of combat picking his nose the entire match. There were three separate attempts to kick him, and all three were shot down. I don't know if the person who kept protecting him was a member of his alliance, or just softhearted or simple minded. This leech was packing a lot of orange too, so it's not like his patron was ensuring him a carry.

How many votes does it take to kick someone? You should only need three. Heck, as soon as the third request to kick is made, it should be automatic.

kemnimtarkas · June 2019

frogwalloper#6494 said:

namelesshero347 said:
...most of the time, the kick is voted down! I'm so fed up...
Earlier this week I was in a skirmish where the leech stood just outside of combat picking his nose the entire match.

I'm unfamiliar with the nose picking animation. Would be an interesting QoL addition to game.

kangkeok · June 2019

cherryman1 said:
It almost feels like they made the randoms extra hard to combat the AFK players by making the party fail and not giving them results.
kangkeok said:
The problem with low ilevel player not able to do damage is the new deflect and accuracy system which is new in this mod. In the past mod Low ilevel did better dps due to the fact that near 100% of their attack don't get deflect. Mod 16 is different. If u don't have enough accuracy, ur damage are gonna get deflect almost 90% of the time. That's like scratching less than 1% of hp off the mob. U cant blame low ilevel for that either. They just don't have the item to play with compare to high ilevel where u can just switch enchantment, companion, runestone, insignia etc. If u have a fresh independent level 70 alt that don't receive help from your main, u know what I mean. That's the same feeling we shared with fresh new player. The deflection is simply ridiculous.

In my opinion its scaling issue. The developer are just to harsh to low ilvl on the accuracy/deflect department. They should have at least tone it down just so that 50% of the damage get deflected when u have 0 accuracy and let it scale from there. Its just dumb that 90% of the damage u did just get deflected. It should be 50% of your damage u do get deflected at worst for the balance sake. And not 0%. That way, low ilevel wont be totally useless in group content and could have some contribution that bring weight to the game. Also it gives the new player a bad impression that this is a HAMSTER game. I mean what are we doing here in the dungeon when all our damage did almost nothing to the mob? That just encourage people to afk.
This is so true for new players who are trying to earn their first amounts of AD in the game. The problem isn't that they are having trouble because they don't want to help. They can't earn the rAD to purchase the gear in the game that will help them in the content. Stronghold boons, companion bonuses and mount insignia bonuses are what you need to do random queue. Most of those cost in the hundered of thousand of AD each and up and your looking at over a million or 2 of AD to get those items even the ones that are entry level and not best in slot. When you consider this as being the entry point for a player who can make 9k rAD in random leveling per day and you see where new players are pretty much removed from being able to play the game. They get to spend hours in the randoms trying to get better party members to do the run. Even if they get 3 ME's done per day that is only 15k rAD more for them.

Yeah. This is why the developer lower the requirement for random que, not to HAMSTER higher ilevel player off but to help those lower ilevel get their RAD. However in my opinion, it isn't enough since they can't be effective in the content due to mob are so highly deflective in intermediate content for them. Those scaling on accuracy/deflect should not be so harsh. Its still acceptable if 50% of their damage is deflected but 90% is just too much. It just totally kill off their enjoyment towards the game.

zimxero · June 2019

there are a number of things they can do to stop bots.

1) give players an extra 'request to kick' each time they level up.

2) 10% of randoms begin with a 'captcha' test. Somewhere on the screen it tells players what to type in chat. If they fail.. they get the same test every random. Failure to pass the test three times in a row puts a temp ban on the account with escalating durations.

3) add code to prohibit running the same dungeon more than three times per day.

aceshigh93 · June 2019

zimxero#8085 said:
there are a number of things they can do to stop bots.

1) give players an extra 'request to kick' each time they level up.

2) 10% of randoms begin with a 'captcha' test. Somewhere on the screen it tells players what to type in chat. If they fail.. they get the same test every random. Failure to pass the test three times in a row puts a temp ban on the account with escalating durations.

3) add code to prohibit running the same dungeon more than three times per day.

literally everytime i do something that requires a group, theres atleast one bot rushing. i dont mind finishing some things asap but often they just end up pulling everything and constantly die and for some reason the group would rather constantly revive the bot instead of kick him and hopefully get a real player. i always try telling the group hes a bot but most of the time my group doesnt speak english. honestly a captcha would be super annoying. same with a code. i remember playing computer games when i was younger that had a like a "anti-cheat" thing load just before the game. i assumed it watched your systems activity during gameplay to detect bots, exploits, hacks, etc. i believe arc would have to partner with a company that offered a service like that to truly get rid of the bots. also i think WoW and runescape had something in their games that monitored screen and player movment to detect bots. like they had algorithms to detect if the mouse and player movements where repetitive and straightforward, for lack of a better word. if they added something like that, all they would have to do is add it to their terms and agrement thing and force players to either agree or disagree when they start the game.

robai · June 2019

That's why kicking anyone at any time is needed (nobody would kick for no reason, because 4 of 5 must vote yes, so there is definitely a good reason).
AFK players should be replaced automatically.
Offline players should be replaced automatically too if:
1) they are offline longer than they were online
2) and at least 1 min offline
(I mean random queues here)

cheerz4beerz · June 2019

> @robai#6206 said:
> That's why kicking anyone at any time is needed (nobody would kick for no reason, because 4 of 5 must vote yes, so there is definitely a good reason).
> AFK players should be replaced automatically.
> Offline players should be replaced automatically too if:
> 1) they are offline longer than they were online
> 2) and at least 1 min offline

You dramatically underestimate how sheep like people are in groups. See vote to kick? Click yes. Don't even see who it is or why.

Im not saying you shouldnt have vote to kick but to believe that people wont get kicked for no reason is laughably naive.

robai · June 2019

cheerz4beerz said:

You dramatically underestimate how sheep like people are in groups. See vote to kick? Click yes. Don't even see who it is or why.
Im not saying you shouldnt have vote to kick but to believe that people wont get kicked for no reason is laughably naive.

Now we can kick any player after 5 mins (maybe 10 mins, not sure). So, your point is not valid.

In case a player is kicked for no reason within the 5 mins since start then it's not a big problem since player can just join another random group. The only problem would be if a player is kicked much later (but he can be kicked now, so such case has nothing to do with my suggestion).

I'm not sure why some players afraid of being kicked (accidentally for no reason). The sooner you are kicked the less harm is done for you.

dionchi · June 2019

I'm not really sure if "More bots than players" is completely accurate, however I would hazard the opinion that there appears to be fewer players that 'give a sh*@!#' than there were prior to 16. I have personally spoken with several players who told me they have too much time, effort and expense in the game to just walk away from it even though they are no longer enjoying the game so they say they are going to stick around 'in the hopes of things changing' - but in the mean time are going to play the game in a manner inconsistent with - beneficial to the greater good -, let's say, game play.

Hopefully this is something that will pass (or the players will) quickly but on a personal observation I'm beginning to notice despite the Developers alterations in player stats and powers, to me there appears to be just as many (if not more) players attempting to solo group content (with varying degrees of success), running off and abandoning party members, going AFK and just generally attempting to scam game content... for me the most annoying types are those who try to ride their mounts in dungeon and skirmish content (or just run around in circles) avoiding opponents as much as possible and contributing as little as possible who are still able to collect the reward at the end...

And I'm still of the opinion that the player option to "kick" any player out of a random run - yes even the annoying ones I specifically mentioned above - should be completely removed from player groups. Groups should be given the option to Report Player Behavior and if found to be sound game monitors and developers should put some teeth into a response, (something like account banned from game play for a minimum of 48 hours)... ¢¢

sandukutupu · June 2019

zimxero#8085 said:
there are a number of things they can do to stop bots.
...

Sadly we have suggested many things that can be done to stop bots. My personal favorite is a bot jail. It looks, smells, and feels like a real dungeon but has zero rewards. The idea is after identifying a bot using the CAPTCHA or being reported by a player, the bot is informed by visual alone they are about to be sent to prison. Because this is not a real person sitting at the keyboard they fail to respond and get sent to an identical dungeon the bot runs forever or until its owner realizes they are not being rewarded and shuts it down.

My husband said he would be very harsh and inflict a zero tolerance policy, account deleted, not a ban, just gone! Aren't you glad he is not in charge?

zimxero · June 2019

Well, bot detection is not that simple. If the detection system reads false positives for botting, it can result in losing players and revenue, not to mention developing a horrible reputation. There are always players who hover on the edge of whats allowed versus not. If Playstation players can use programmable controllers.. then why cant PC players use programmable shortcut commands. The transition from perfectly allowable to completely bannable... is a gray line in between. I agree that AFK playing to farm is obviously against ToS. But the detections for this.. can detect real players using very minor play assists.. like a player with one hand who uses autohotkey to combine button presses.

In the end, its a doable thing for the game company... but is it worth investing their time into it?

caldochaud · June 2019

Bot detection might also cause a problem for those players who use a programmable joystick or game controller like the Logitech F310... unless PC Neverwinter adds official controller support which would solve that problem.

dread4moor · June 2019

marvyn#9793 said:
I've grumbled about bots / afk players several times already, but I was in a Demogorgon just before the reset today.

And it failed. No rewards.

https://imgur.com/sSf21Cr

And the reason for this was that at least 50% of the "players" were more interested in admiring the flames at the campfire, including both tanks.

Inevitably, as re-entering the arena caused an instant death, the result was everyone then waited outside until it completed.

Come on developers. You funnel us into random queues to obtain AD yet have given the actual players next to zero tools to deal with bots and afkers and you seemingly are not doing much (if anything) to address this.

Random content in this game has become unplayable - it's just not fun.

Sort it out please, or whines about Mod 16 will be the least of your problems.

Hey Marvyn.
Took is late to this conversation.
But this topic (Bot Infestation) has been perennial since I started playing in 2013.
Don't know how long you've been playing but there are exactly 25378 forum posts and suggestions about combating bots.

Okay... I made up that number.
But it feels like 25378.

The methods for combating bots are very different from methods to combat AFK human players.

How do you know they were bots?

demonmonger · June 2019

The reason why yo uh dont see many people running ahead is because we dont have mobility anymore... we all run at the same speed plus or minus 2 seconds per 50 feet.

greywynd · June 2019

No, you still see things like Barbs sprinting ahead.

Only to get slaughtered because they aren't as good as they think they are.

sandukutupu · June 2019

zimxero#8085 said:
Well, bot detection is not that simple. If the detection system reads false positives for botting, it can result in losing players and revenue, not to mention developing a horrible reputation. There are always players who hover on the edge of whats allowed versus not. If Playstation players can use programmable controllers.. then why cant PC players use programmable shortcut commands. The transition from perfectly allowable to completely bannable... is a gray line in between. I agree that AFK playing to farm is obviously against ToS. But the detections for this.. can detect real players using very minor play assists.. like a player with one hand who uses autohotkey to combine button presses.

In the end, its a doable thing for the game company... but is it worth investing their time into it?

This housewife is amazed that many players still think the games scan for macros or other programs running. That is not how you detect a bot in any game, even I know this. It would take up far too much resources and games like Neverwinter have a difficult time just keeping the link open while tossing packets.

While I may disagree with such a harsh zero tolerance policy. The tried and true method works every time to nab bots. I don't see a bot jail as being offensive to even the most casual players. If you saw an image (not text) pop up stating you needed to respond to it or go to jail, you would enter the correct information right away. Even if you failed, the human would see the jail "exit" and the bot would continue playing within the jail.

dionchi · June 2019

I still think the best way to combat "bots" is to use the tools we already have available. During game play press the "H" button and "Report Player Behavior". This isn't going to get any player immediately banned for 'botting' regardless of how suspicious and resembling bot behavior any one player thinks another character is, but after a while if the same name keeps popping up I bet someone looks into it.

I hadn't thought of it previously but I do like the idea of a "bot jail" and as to how to tell who gets to be put there, I think @sandukutupu already suggested some type of random image/response pop up and as a matter of fact I've suggested way gates where each character in a party has to correctly make a response to a question/image before they are permitted to continue to the next area.

Of course as far as I know just about any method for effectively combating botting, and I mean actual botting and not just what some players - think - is botting behavior, is going to have some kind of blow-back whether it be longer completion times in random content or whatever...

So now players are probably asking themselves how much are they willing to be inconvenienced to combat actual botting behavior - or maybe considering the fact that we can't have one without the other - how serious are we about insisting the bot problem be dealt with beyond what they are already doing?

frogwalloper · June 2019

dionchi said:
...after a while if the same name keeps popping up I bet someone looks into it.

I kind of think they don't - hope I'm wrong - but I still run into the same burned out leeches that I reported a year ago behaving the same way as they did then. Some of them I know by name at this point, and a few are so bad that I even know some of their alts. Certain guilds are notorious for this kind of behavior too, and if you see two of their members show up at the same time, you may as well bail.

Wish I knew whether the devs cared about afk/leeches or not, and if reporting players makes any difference.

I still maintain that the best solution is for the game to reject anyone on our list of blocked players when compiling a queue.

namelesshero347 · June 2019

What is with these people? I just got out of a RIQ Kessells Retreat run that took nearly 20 minutes. One guy was AFK the entire time. Right before we enter the golems room, I brought up a kick vote and it got voted down. Then after waiting in the circle for another 2 minutes, someone finally came to their senses and started kick vote and got it done. Now I am really sick of RQs. As if the rampant AFKs were not bad enough, now there are significant numbers of AFK-sympathizers.

More bots than players

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