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Is Tiamat still broken?

merik1999merik1999 Posts: 65Member Arc User
I went in and the group i was with did not seem that strong but we are nerfed at IL14k
But we could not get past second dragon. The first dragon took us 2 minutes to kill it. and the second one was just taking too long to kill...most everyone died.
Is this the same for everyone or was that just a bad group? I was a healer so i had no input on DPS. But i was running out of heals alot and that rarely happens with me.

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Comments

  • arazith07arazith07 Posts: 243Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Sounds like bad dps, and if no one grabbed green or red dragon souls, the breath attacks (especially green) will party wipe. Also as a general note, please don't fight the devils next to the clerics, wait for them at the spawn points. If the dragon AoE hit a cleric, especially the green one, it's going to take longer for them to get full charge due to the damage over time.
  • callumf#9018 callumf Posts: 977Member Arc User
    In chat I heard people have completed it. Needs good DPS and as above - you need to actually USE the dragon soul gem things
  • halfredo#5859 halfredo Posts: 11Member Arc User
    13k of minimum level is too low, must be raised.
    I think 18k should be the minimum
  • asterotgasterotg Posts: 1,711Member Arc User
    And for the love of god, please dont sent players as reinforcement in failed runs. While you might compensate the lack of dps, you cant grab a dragon souls. If most players are reinforcement, it is a whipe at the blue and the green head every time. Just a waste of our time. You dont even get the RQ reward for a failed run.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • empalasempalas Posts: 679Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    asterotg said:

    And for the love of god, please dont sent players as reinforcement in failed runs. While you might compensate the lack of dps, you cant grab a dragon souls. If most players are reinforcement, it is a whipe at the blue and the green head every time. Just a waste of our time. You dont even get the RQ reward for a failed run.

    This right here...weird thing is as tank I could tank the lightning but I can't tank the fire. So Red is hitting a lot harder than blue which wasn't the case previously. And yes the green is near impossible without the souls. and the spamming of the dragon breath during the cleric phase is also a joke. Unless you have couple who get through with 90+power very high IL its going to go right down to the wire.
  • hitchslappedhitchslapped Posts: 161Member Arc User
    edited June 16
    i've only run it once since it's been back, but we did complete it on that run. there were only two of us with decent dps, my tr ( 20.3k ) and a cw (22k iirc ). cw finished with 28mil, i finished 25 and a bit mil. next nearest was > 10mil behind ( i *think* 18k, but i'm not sure ). completed on third go 'round of the heads. would probably have been second, but a lot of people don't seem to have figured out that they *need* to both pick up the dragon soul gems, use them at the right time, *and* have everyone inside the shield at the right time, so a whole bunch of dead people needing res'd at inconvenient times, leading to more dead people needing res'd, or having to release and return. if you get a full party of 15k barely qualifying for entry toons, you're not gonna complete it. and lawd help you if all your higher ilvl dps's are barbies.
  • revenantptrevenantpt Posts: 54Member Arc User
    edited June 16
    The general problem is that most people don't know what they are doing...

    They are used to melting the bosses and don't know old tiamat mechanics, some pick up the gems but don't equip them, others equip them but use them at the wrong head, they don't bother to dodge HAMSTER, and they just stand there asking for a revive instead of releasing and coming back to the fight, others die and just afk..

    Today i was doing riq etos and got a tank with the minimum item lvl, he went in, didn't even bother to block got killed and said in chat ''trash party'' and disconnected, then the barbi disconnected, we ended up running more than half the dungeon as 3 and this is getting frequent on publlic q's.

    Item lvl equirements need to increase across the board.
  • arazith07arazith07 Posts: 243Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    The issue with raising iL requirements, what do you raise it to and still have places where new players can earn rAD? Pretty much everyone can get to 16k by completing UM campaign, so you can't make RiQ higher than that, and that won't solve the issue of those calling for an iL increase. However for Tiamat specifically, I could see it getting put into the Advanced queue.
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Posts: 775Member Arc User
    I have been running new Tiamat a couple of times, and it works well. The tuning is spot on, imo.

    However, it is not trivial any more - not like in mod 15 where you sneezed and Tiamat died in 1 round.

    * If you get a very low dps team, expect to fail
    * People MUST get and USE green gems or you won't get past green head
    * Basic understanding of Tiamat tactics is required
    * You are unlikely to one-round her. A very good team might do it in two rounds, most will need three.
    And remember to stop killing at 20% when not in the kill round - the heads will regen to 20% anyways

    The encounter tactics is a general problem in NW these days... a lot of the players grew up with the one-hit-dead tactics of mod 15. They have no idea of what the actual tactics is in most of the dungeon endbosses. And with the lowered dps we often need to do proper tactics to succeed.


  • callumf#9018 callumf Posts: 977Member Arc User

    it is not trivial any more - not like in mod 15 where you sneezed and Tiamat died in 1 round.

    * If you get a very low dps team, expect to fail
    * People MUST get and USE green gems or you won't get past green head
    * Basic understanding of Tiamat tactics is required
    * You are unlikely to one-round her. A very good team might do it in two rounds, most will need three.
    And remember to stop killing at 20% when not in the kill round - the heads will regen to 20% anyways

    I tried one for fun the other day.

    Epic fail all round. Entry Item level is too low for a PUG group. Really way too low.

    After 4 mins of first run we had the first dragon head down to 75%, I realised that mathematically we would be unable to take down all head in 20 minutes.

    Entry level and scaling mean its still a bit HAMSTER
  • cherryman1cherryman1 Posts: 213Member Arc User

    I have been running new Tiamat a couple of times, and it works well. The tuning is spot on, imo.

    However, it is not trivial any more - not like in mod 15 where you sneezed and Tiamat died in 1 round.

    * If you get a very low dps team, expect to fail
    * People MUST get and USE green gems or you won't get past green head
    * Basic understanding of Tiamat tactics is required
    * You are unlikely to one-round her. A very good team might do it in two rounds, most will need three.
    And remember to stop killing at 20% when not in the kill round - the heads will regen to 20% anyways

    The encounter tactics is a general problem in NW these days... a lot of the players grew up with the one-hit-dead tactics of mod 15. They have no idea of what the actual tactics is in most of the dungeon endbosses. And with the lowered dps we often need to do proper tactics to succeed.


    The tuning is off. The dungeon is now setup and tested for end game players and not for the indended audience which is as a stepping stone piece of content to help players in the 14k to 16k item level area without any % damage increase gear, rank 8 enchants across the board, rank 8 bondings and runestones, blue to the handed out companion gear, blue companions that aren't best in slot. That is who the target audience is in game for this piece of content but now the target audience is for players that have advanced characters. If your an end game player you will enjoy it. The casuals and early game players aren't going to enjoy it since they mainly won't be able to complete it.
    Guild Leader: Under the Influence (GH20)
    Yule (Barb): 25k : Siren (TR): 23k : Torun (DC): 24k : Siren OP (OP): 24k : Siren SW (SW): 21k : Modern (F): 23k : Cherry1 (CW) : 21k
  • halfredo#5859 halfredo Posts: 11Member Arc User

    the only solution I see to make tiamat fun is to create 2 as for other dg. Tiamat normal (easier than the current one) and Tiamat master (current one)
  • asterotgasterotg Posts: 1,711Member Arc User

    The general problem is that most people don't know what they are doing...

    They are used to melting the bosses and don't know old tiamat mechanics, some pick up the gems but don't equip them, others equip them but use them at the wrong head, they don't bother to dodge HAMSTER, and they just stand there asking for a revive instead of releasing and coming back to the fight, others die and just afk..

    Today i was doing riq etos and got a tank with the minimum item lvl, he went in, didn't even bother to block got killed and said in chat ''trash party'' and disconnected, then the barbi disconnected, we ended up running more than half the dungeon as 3 and this is getting frequent on publlic q's.

    Item lvl equirements need to increase across the board.

    This is a good example for the problem here. You can either tune it for high IL players, like Tiamat and get fail after fail or tune it for newbies (Etos). Even the easier dungeons can be to difficult for them, without a decent geared player.

    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • jonkocajonkoca Posts: 2,515Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    It's doable, takes at least 2 rounds though. Green gem a must, blue too, all the dragon head attacks are more severe. At least 2 good dps toons too.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • pitshadepitshade Posts: 4,014Member Arc User
    If you get it queuing solo, expect it to be rough and may likely fail. With a decent core group, should be ok. DPS check at heads can be severe with randoms.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • adoranzgrimm#0645 adoranzgrimm Posts: 5Member Arc User
    when will tiamat be fixed its too hard to complete when u just want to do a RIQ
  • adinosiiadinosii Posts: 3,821Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Ran it with a guild group. Not hard at all.....assuming you don't have any slackers.
    Make NWO great again, please....
  • cherryman1cherryman1 Posts: 213Member Arc User
    adinosii said:

    Ran it with a guild group. Not hard at all.....assuming you don't have any slackers.

    Problem is that most groups in the random queue are queuing into the content at the minimums to do it. They also aren't building their toons to do the content as they just put on stuff they could wear and went into battle. I see this as a fail since the target audience is new players doing well of dragons. The content should more easily reflect well of dragons difficulty than what it is right now. The content as is right now is closer to end game difficulty instead of early game difficulty.
    Guild Leader: Under the Influence (GH20)
    Yule (Barb): 25k : Siren (TR): 23k : Torun (DC): 24k : Siren OP (OP): 24k : Siren SW (SW): 21k : Modern (F): 23k : Cherry1 (CW) : 21k
  • kemnimtarkaskemnimtarkas Posts: 633Member Arc User

    adinosii said:

    Ran it with a guild group. Not hard at all.....assuming you don't have any slackers.

    ... The content as is right now is closer to end game difficulty instead of early game difficulty.
    And the rewards for finishing the skirmish haven't changed. End game (level 80) challenge, sub-level 70 rewards upon completion. Not Worth Time Invested.
  • kangkeokkangkeok Posts: 1,055Member Arc User
    edited June 20
    Ok, i went to 5-6 Tiamat run since they put in the fix. From all my run there are wins and there are losses. All are que are in PUG. I can conclude that Tiamat is fixed. The difficulty isn't abnormal anymore nor its the problem with iLevel. From my observation between successful run and the fail one both have a good mix of ilevel. The only thing that separates them are,

    1 Team coordination. I don't know what happen here. I thought everyone know the zerg tactics. During the head phase, everyone zerg from black head to white ( unless specifies by leader ). All the successful run obey this rule. Those that fail are when people are scattered everywhere. Some even try to solo head without healer or gem. Also if u are splitting the group in 2, make sure there are no more than 1 healer or tank in a group. If u are a healer/tank and u see the role is already filled by someone, go to the other group. Although i personally feel people should stay in one big group. We are no longer a 25 man Tiamat. Splitting the force is a risk.

    2. Mechanic. The group that fail are those that keeps killing head or does not take gem or does not know which gem is the crucial one. People just ignore/forgot the fact that those head they kill are going to revive with 30% health the next round if they don't kill all 5 head in that round. So much time wasted there when they could have move on to the next head. So for people that does not know this, do not kill or further damage the head below 30% health if u feel the group cant finish all 5 head in one round. Also get a gem during the wizard phase. After u kill those summoner, its everyone duty to collect a gem near the corpse. The green, blue and red gem are the important one.

    3. Playing like in mod 15. Some people play like they are still in god mod. I mean those red zone hurts. Don't fight in it and drain your healer divinity. Fight out side of the red zone. It isnt the mob that hurts. Its those red zone that melt your health. Its tank duty here to pull the mob out of red zone for everyone to dps. Although i feel the red zone land abit too frequent. The only tweak the developer need to do here is have 1 red zone active at one time.

    In my opinion, if all are done in proper way, Tiamat is a piece of cake.
  • arcanjo86arcanjo86 Posts: 990Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    new tiamant has problems with the low amount of soul gems and the long cd timer on them, its limited to a max of 2 soul gems of same type per head and the heads breath damage wipes most player and we don't have enough gems to put on poison trail after green head like we used to do, parties get wiped, same for red head and blue head. also players are spliting the 2 party, when its heads phase all 10 player need to start on black head deal damage to head till 25%, then move to next head till 25% an so on till timer is gone to go defend clerics again once all heads are around 25% hp thats when the next phase all heads can be killed on one phase.
  • kangkeokkangkeok Posts: 1,055Member Arc User
    edited June 20
    arcanjo86 said:

    new tiamant has problems with the low amount of soul gems and the long cd timer on them, its limited to a max of 2 soul gems of same type per head and the heads breath damage wipes most player and we don't have enough gems to put on poison trail after green head like we used to do, parties get wiped, same for red head and blue head. also players are spliting the 2 party, when its heads phase all 10 player need to start on black head deal damage to head till 25%, then move to next head till 25% an so on till timer is gone to go defend clerics again once all heads are around 25% hp thats when the next phase all heads can be killed on one phase.

    In my opinion 2 gem is enough. We don't have to rush in like in the past. Just wait out those poison to disperse. We got like 4 min per head phase and the time is enough for 3 phases. As long as everyone stay as a group, dps should be more than enough to get those head to 25% in 2 phase and leave the last phase to finish them off. People just need to make sure they grab the gem and don't expect other to grab for u. That way we are sure to have everyone pick up a gem. During the head phase, we just need to alternate between those gem. It all about coordination. Someone need to stand out and call for head because most new player really don't know what to do.
  • eoleeeolee Posts: 259Member Arc User
    Not quite sure rising iL is the solution. Ran it with supposedly premade where the lowest iL was 22k and... we only had 2 gems. My green and a red one. They were...zerging the clerics. Zerging one cleric til bar filled then coming on the other one where i was trying to kite mobs on my cleric. And of course guess what happened? The other cleric wasnt defended anymore. So they ran back to the other cleric. And that twice. Then the usual wipes at heads because of no gems. Im sure we all have a bunch of high iL in our alliances that are about as clueless as new players.

    What's sure though is that this is the type of content that can be a guild activity/alliance activity but not in random queue. This is really punishing people trying to get their ADs and making them not want to queue for randoms...again. And im talking about the new players we all try to welcome in our guild because they are a large part of the game population now.

    I dont remember if i dream about it, but didnt we have random epic trial in the past? I mean, why did it get removed? It was a good opportunity to build larger groups within alliance while making sure that enough criteria for finishing the content were met. It doesnt mean that clueless players wouldnt queue for those, but at least it would allow us to queue with more than 5 people for this. All the trials are 10 men now. And will be 10 men im sure if any other is added.
    So why not making a random epic 10 men? Would give an alternative to random leveling queue that i find personally boring after a while.
  • pitshadepitshade Posts: 4,014Member Arc User
    Skirmishes and trials were removed as separate queues in mod 14? when epic dungeons were split to RIQ and RAQ. They went from grouping content by type to by intended difficulty and there weren't enough skirmishes or trials to make tiered queues.

    That kind of thinking has been the issue with RQ since its inception. If you don't have enough content to populate your tiers, maybe you should rethink what you're doing. Plan around what you have. Instead, they decide on a course of action and bend or break everything else to make them fit the plan.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • kangkeokkangkeok Posts: 1,055Member Arc User
    Its not impossible in random que. Finish it several time with random player with random ilevel. Mostly its done with a good lead that call out heads and people that listen. Its like edemo when people shout not to open purple and people listen, we get gold. Its a problem when people don't listen. Its just luck u get this type of people but that doesn't mean that luck wont favor us and have us group with experience player in the next run. Frankly I'm glad that the dev make content that encourage teamwork instead of content that gauge dps and those that encourage one man show.
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Posts: 775Member Arc User
    It is the same problem for many dungeons: You cannot just brute force it any more. You need to pay attention to proper tactics.

    When you get people that are clueless, wipes ensue. IL does not seem to have that much to do with it. It is inexperienced players that is the problem.

    This will be a problem for a limited time only, people will gain experience and pick up the tactics over time.

    IMO Tiamat is well tuned.. you wipe if you mess up the tactics, but that is how it should be in all dungeons.

    Even RLQ should not be AD without effort.
  • kangkeokkangkeok Posts: 1,055Member Arc User

    It is the same problem for many dungeons: You cannot just brute force it any more. You need to pay attention to proper tactics.

    When you get people that are clueless, wipes ensue. IL does not seem to have that much to do with it. It is inexperienced players that is the problem.

    This will be a problem for a limited time only, people will gain experience and pick up the tactics over time.

    IMO Tiamat is well tuned.. you wipe if you mess up the tactics, but that is how it should be in all dungeons.

    Even RLQ should not be AD without effort.

    Agree. But even as an inexperienced player, if u listen to people, content can still be done. Its those people that u tell them no and they still do it that gives u the headache.
  • pariswinters#7118 pariswinters Posts: 714Member Arc User
    its easy now....even done it on my 19k rogue. same mechanics as before, avoid red aoe, kill trash. when heads spawn reduce them to 35%, then round 2 kill em!.....done about 4 since the update. I'd call it fixed!
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