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Mod 16 - Fighter Guide (ongoing)

tyfud#3254 tyfud Member Posts: 24 Arc User
edited April 2019 in The Guard Barracks
So, Mod16 drops today, and the Guardian Fighter is dead! Long live the GF.

The Fighter survives.

I've gotten my Fighter to level 80 twice on Preview since Mod16 was publicly available. From the first weekend it showed up on Mimic, and every weekend since after the patches came in, up to and including this weekend, I've been on there logging in some time playing around with all of our new mechanics.

A guildie, and GF mate of mine: CrizpyNutz, wanted a guide for our guild/alliance for all the fighters, or long lost fighters (barb/dc/op) who rolled other classes due to perceived issues with the GF and wanted to make a comeback to Fighters in Mod16. He asked for my help to add in all of my thoughts and playtesting feedback, and between the two of us, we've got about 33+ pages of Fighter specific advice and information for our class in Mod16.

DISCLAIMER: This is still being actively worked on by Crizpy and myself and so will be changing constantly. Some of the comments in there are specific to what's on preview over the weekend (e.g. our at-will attacks with guard up are bugged and won't work and there's about half a dozen other, less severe bugs plaguing our class right now). As the patches come flying in over the next few weeks, we'll do our best to keep up with the changes and keep the guide up to date.

The guide is heavily focused on Dreadnought (DPS) right now. That's not an accident. That's pretty much all I played on preview. Vanguard (Tank) was in rough shape until recently, and it's undergone some significant changes that need to be better tested. I'm primarily a DPS GF on live, and so Dreadnought fit my playstyle best. Dreadnought also got some significant changes very recently and we're still working out the proper playstyles, but know that everything being recommended/discussed has been tested for leveling, solo, and group play in dungeons (the ones that had level scaling working properly at least).

We're going to try and let everyone comment on this if you have feedback/additions/corrections. Please don't abuse your gobal commenting powers, or you'll ruin it for everyone and we'll have to do it the hard way, through the forums :) . Anyhow, without further ado, here's the link:

The Fabled Alliance Mod16 guide to Fighters.

What we'll try to get to this week/weekend:The start of itemization, Companion choices and companion loadouts, and hopefully some more Vanguard information.

For any Vanguard focused Fighters out there who have an interest in contributing, please shoot me a message on here so we can work with you to get you added as a contributor to the guide. It's unlikely that I'll be playing much Vanguard, as the person I play with 99% of the time is going to be a Prot specced OP. Not a lot of tanking opportunities for me to contribute to the Vanguard portion of the guide.


Thanks all, and goodluck on all your upcoming mod16 adventures!
Post edited by tyfud#3254 on

Comments

  • ravnazrael1ravnazrael1 Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    That bad? Following
  • crizpynutzcrizpynutz Member Posts: 349 Arc User
    Updated the second loadout for AoE by putting in Reave over Cleave - better by adding range, proc'ing crushing blows/tenebrous, etc. Added mount powers as well. Again, all a work in progress, but sharing with the community for feedback, suggestions as much as providing info.
  • ravnazrael1ravnazrael1 Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    > @crizpynutz said:
    > Updated the second loadout for AoE by putting in Reave over Cleave - better by adding range, proc'ing crushing blows/tenebrous, etc. Added mount powers as well. Again, all a work in progress, but sharing with the community for feedback, suggestions as much as providing info.

    Awesome job
    I’m trying to learn more about what companions I’ll need any thoughts?
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,145 Arc User
    This is shaping up to be a well organized guide.
    Good job.

    Glad to help with the Vanguard section as that is my jam.

    You will have to update it weekly as Mod16 is sure to have more patches than Raggedy Ann.

    Attributes
    For Vanguard, I would respectfully suggest HP is far more important than Defense and Deflect.
    With the nerf to our shield, we need to maximize our HP.
    Defense is easy to get above cap by gear and boons alone.
    So it's all radiants for The Took.

    BTW, your Vanguard shield section has the wrong % of HP.
    They nerfed the shield while were still on preview.

    Overall, really good so far.
    Your efforts are appreciated.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,350 Arc User


    Attributes

    For Vanguard, I would respectfully suggest HP is far more important than Defense and Deflect.

    With the nerf to our shield, we need to maximize our HP.

    Defense is easy to get above cap by gear and boons alone.

    Eh, I agree Deflect is near useless and that in level 80 zones, HP is the most effective because lolinflated stats makes it easy to cap everything.

    In level 70 instances, I found that investments in Defense were far more effective for extending my survivability under shield. If you think about it, shield is just a lot of extra HP that happens to regenerate. Treating shield that way got me thinking that you end up more tanky by reducing damage to that pool of HP (increasing DR) rather than placing marginal improvements in it (adding HP).

    That probably may just be a playstyle difference though. I prefer to shield the basic attacks, then dodge the highly telegraphed attacks, rather than play a permashield build. Either way, the Desmos graph below records my findings in a mathematical format. Higher on Y Axis = better.

    https://www.desmos.com/calculator/rvo9c5sqdr

  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,350 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    I would point out the numerous things that are bugged, but I'm hoping @asterdahl delivers on his bug fixes.

    I'm guessing he's doing bug fixes based on his tear list (Paladin, Barbie, Fighter, Cleric).

    I'm also half hoping he delivers on his promise to buff Vengeance.
    asterdahl said:


    I know that it doesn't specifically address this feedback, but the damage bonus granted when you are "vengeful" will be increased for launch along with a few other damage adjustments to ensure that Dreadnought is in a competitive place with other DPS.

    Anyways, one major thing I'd suggest is changing the link to view only. You can do so by selecting "share", "get shareable link", and changing the link "whoever has the link can view".

    You guys set it to "whoever has the link can edit", which may create some problems as some random might be scrolling through it, fat finger a key, and accidentally delete some things.

    Or worse, vandalize the document.

    (Yes, that was me. I was planning to delete the edit after I trolled a bit, but I mainly did so to catch your attention and ensure you guys realize why you should set it to view only).



  • crizpynutzcrizpynutz Member Posts: 349 Arc User

    This is shaping up to be a well organized guide.

    Good job.



    Glad to help with the Vanguard section as that is my jam.



    You will have to update it weekly as Mod16 is sure to have more patches than Raggedy Ann.



    Attributes

    For Vanguard, I would respectfully suggest HP is far more important than Defense and Deflect.

    With the nerf to our shield, we need to maximize our HP.

    Defense is easy to get above cap by gear and boons alone.

    So it's all radiants for The Took.



    BTW, your Vanguard shield section has the wrong % of HP.

    They nerfed the shield while were still on preview.



    Overall, really good so far.

    Your efforts are appreciated.

    This is very much appreciated and ya, we'll update as often as we can. We put this up as an in process draft, not a finished product and will make updates as often as we can. I've been traveling and haven't had much time to get back in but I will come Monday and will work on some Vanguard info as you provided here and others who Ive talked to.
  • crizpynutzcrizpynutz Member Posts: 349 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    I would point out the numerous things that are bugged, but I'm hoping @asterdahl delivers on his bug fixes.

    I'm guessing he's doing bug fixes based on his tear list (Paladin, Barbie, Fighter, Cleric).

    I'm also half hoping he delivers on his promise to buff Vengeance.

    asterdahl said:


    I know that it doesn't specifically address this feedback, but the damage bonus granted when you are "vengeful" will be increased for launch along with a few other damage adjustments to ensure that Dreadnought is in a competitive place with other DPS.

    Anyways, one major thing I'd suggest is changing the link to view only. You can do so by selecting "share", "get shareable link", and changing the link "whoever has the link can view".

    You guys set it to "whoever has the link can edit", which may create some problems as some random might be scrolling through it, fat finger a key, and accidentally delete some things.

    Or worse, vandalize the document.

    (Yes, that was me. I was planning to delete the edit after I trolled a bit, but I mainly did so to catch your attention and ensure you guys realize why you should set it to view only).


    LOL dude I LOL'd for real when I saw that. We originally changed it to can comment when you have the link, but I've had to reject too many suggestions of adding "HAMSTER" to the guide so now it's view. Please comment here if anyone has thoughts. xD
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,145 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    rjc9000 said:


    Attributes

    For Vanguard, I would respectfully suggest HP is far more important than Defense and Deflect.

    With the nerf to our shield, we need to maximize our HP.

    Defense is easy to get above cap by gear and boons alone.

    Eh, I agree Deflect is near useless and that in level 80 zones, HP is the most effective because lolinflated stats makes it easy to cap everything.

    In level 70 instances, I found that investments in Defense were far more effective for extending my survivability under shield. If you think about it, shield is just a lot of extra HP that happens to regenerate. Treating shield that way got me thinking that you end up more tanky by reducing damage to that pool of HP (increasing DR) rather than placing marginal improvements in it (adding HP).

    That probably may just be a playstyle difference though. I prefer to shield the basic attacks, then dodge the highly telegraphed attacks, rather than play a permashield build. Either way, the Desmos graph below records my findings in a mathematical format. Higher on Y Axis = better.

    https://www.desmos.com/calculator/rvo9c5sqdr
    I was so excited to collate a whole 2-days-worth of test data I collected comparing high HP vs high defense Vanguard build in different scaled content. It's pretty interesting (for those few of us who care about this minutia).

    But this recent patch is such a slap in the face that I don't have the heart. Will save the ACT for now.
    Maybe Thomas Foss will restore my faith in the company next week, then I will work on it. Maybe.
    Losing interest.

    Edit:
    Props to @micky1p00 for this quote from the comments of that HP formula:
    "I am not going to bother caring for the damn potty squat, that mechanic can go HAMSTER itself."

    Couldn't have said it better myself.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,350 Arc User


    "I am not going to bother caring for the damn potty squat, that mechanic can go HAMSTER itself."

    Couldn't have said it better myself.

    Janne didn't write that graph (she would probably generate something better on her site)... or write that comment...

    You can tell it wasn't her because she isn't as mouthy as I am...

  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,145 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:


    "I am not going to bother caring for the damn potty squat, that mechanic can go HAMSTER itself."

    Couldn't have said it better myself.

    Janne didn't write that graph (she would probably generate something better on her site)... or write that comment...

    You can tell it wasn't her because she isn't as mouthy as I am...
    My apologies.
    The statement speaks such truth, I had to comment.
    Credit to you, then, for eloquently stating what I failed to show with a dozen posts of preview testing:
    Dig In sucks.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,629 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    rjc9000 said:


    Attributes

    For Vanguard, I would respectfully suggest HP is far more important than Defense and Deflect.

    With the nerf to our shield, we need to maximize our HP.

    Defense is easy to get above cap by gear and boons alone.

    Eh, I agree Deflect is near useless and that in level 80 zones, HP is the most effective because lolinflated stats makes it easy to cap everything.

    In level 70 instances, I found that investments in Defense were far more effective for extending my survivability under shield. If you think about it, shield is just a lot of extra HP that happens to regenerate. Treating shield that way got me thinking that you end up more tanky by reducing damage to that pool of HP (increasing DR) rather than placing marginal improvements in it (adding HP).

    That probably may just be a playstyle difference though. I prefer to shield the basic attacks, then dodge the highly telegraphed attacks, rather than play a permashield build. Either way, the Desmos graph below records my findings in a mathematical format. Higher on Y Axis = better.

    https://www.desmos.com/calculator/rvo9c5sqdr
    End Loli Inflation NOW!
    Post edited by wintersmoke on
  • lordrhavinlordrhavin Member Posts: 160 Arc User
    Im currently playing the vanguard. Well, playing is little bit exaggerated, trying to survive is a better fitting term. All my feats are completely useless, because they boost powers I dont use. Any update for the vanguard would be nice, I currently just found combinations that more or less suck :/
  • crizpynutzcrizpynutz Member Posts: 349 Arc User
    So, with recent changes we are testing out new builds and of course pretty much all of them will change. Means that we are still working on Dreadnought and have not gotten to Vanguard. We'll update as soon as we are good with what we've found.
  • santralafaxsantralafax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    Anyone have thoughts on the Wyvern set for Dreadnaught? I didn't see a set recommended in the guide--yet. Or maybe I missed it?
  • silence1xsilence1x Member Posts: 1,503 Arc User
    Can you still charge Seethe? It seems as if that was changed/nerfed.
    I aim to misbehave
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,350 Arc User
    Some feedback.

    -I am not sure how you guys figured out that "you get a straight up 100k HP buff at level 80".
    -I am also not sure how you guys came up with the conclusion that shield blocks 75% of max HP on a tank setup. Maybe the potty squat does, but the bog standard shield does not, it would block 70% (50*1.4) of max HP instead.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1246318/official-m16-fighter-feedback/p13

    -You could have shortened magnitude to be "a fancy term for percent of weapon damage" hits. A 100 magnitude At-will hits for 100% of weapon damage before adding in STR/Power/buffs/etc.
    -If you're going to compare Knee Breaker to Mod 15, then you could argue it was very heavily nerfed in damage. It now only has (roughly) half of its base damage compared to Mod 15 (assuming all the DoT hits connected). Also worth noting that no DoT means you couldn't stack DoTs on target like you could with og Knee breaker.
    -Determination is very very weak for single target use. You will never get enough added damage off your At-wills/Encounters in 10 seconds to equal or exceed 1600 (or 2000) magnitude in bonus damage.
    -Buffs are still multiplicative, alwaysnoworries just decided to think it was fun to remove 95% of them from the game. So in your case, when you list the example of CSuperiority, Siege master, & Vengeance > 50%, you would have roughly 26% bonus damage on At-wills (1.2584) rather than 24% (if additive).
    -CStrike is 10% debuff, not 5%. I don't think Asterdahl will be fixing this any time soon.
    -You can swap targets with Griffons, but it's super clunky and of limited use. Hold down Griffons, then change your targeting reticle between hits.
    -Small bit of trivia, but most of the "adjusts magnitude to (x)" just add the equivalent extra damage. So in Mow Down's case, if you hit a C-Striked target, you add 2000 magnitude per hit of Mow Down. I also take some slight offense to seeing the Wombo Combo mentioned in a lolbasic 3hit combo that would make Mahvel and Melee players laugh at the lame follow up.
    -Steady Vengeance can be built it up outside of combat. Take a dump on the toilet before starting, then enjoy your free damage boost.
    -I found very little reason to pick a summoned companion since their main advantage (can get CA from them) can be mitigated by ... positioning well with teammates. In solo, I found the extra stats from an augment to be so high that I can run in, loloneshot enemies, and not have to think about positioning for CA. The only time I recall liking a summoned companion would be the Pseudodragon on some boss fights where I cannot get CA by positioning at all.

  • dracin#9917 dracin Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:


    -Steady Vengeance can be built it up outside of combat. Take a dump on the toilet before starting, then enjoy your free damage boost.

    I have found that to be true especially with the feat that adds Vengeance from crits after pre-building from squatting before engaging.
  • dcmktg#2769 dcmktg Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    Hi tyfud,

    Thank you for sharing the DPS builds for AOE and Boss play, it was a good reading :) (smile)

    I reach out to you and the GF community because I think that my GF DPS output is very low vs some other DPS classes - Control Wizard, Barbarian, and CLERIC! Please, be mindful that I could be making mistakes in any aspect of my character building; still, I am quite sure that I am not completely out of track. Are you OR others in the community experiencing the same challange?

    Below is more information.

    If you want more details about my character:

    Power 170K (Full items buffs) - On average 160K
    Penetration 68K
    Critical Severity 70K
    Combat Advantage 119K
    Defense 77K
    Other defensive stats are under the cap (between 50 - 60K)

    Over the weekend, my guildmates and I have farmed LOMM. On average, I do 40M to 50M Damage.

    - The Control Wizard is BiS in EVERYTHING. On average, he did x2.3 times my damage, and the reason is simple - he reaches 210K+ Power in full item buffs. He uses the Envenomed Book as Primary Artifact, which is OVERPOWERED for AP gain (0% to 100% in 10 seconds - maybe less). I missed the event, my fault.

    - The Barbarian is 130K Power, and it is the same player for the Control Wizard. On average, he did x1.5 times my damage. Here is the catch... He can SPAM the power "not so fast" for 7 times in 11-12 seconds, which is a massive advantage in AOE Damage.

    - The Cleric is 160K Power, and he scores just 10M Damage below the Control Wizard because he uses few skills making HUGE DPS spikes.


    Please, contact me for questions or feedback,

    Thank you


  • mcfobmcfob Member Posts: 76 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    I agree completely, GF dps is the WORST of all classes by far. Come on asterdahl, when this mod was in preview you routinely posted on the feedback threads that GF Dps would be viable and you weren't going to ignore it, but it is terrible. I just committed a ton of bound resources to my gf dps and still getting doubled by CW/TR and soundly out dps'd by all others except op tank on LoMM runs. No one wants a gf dps in LoMM, and no one wants a gf tank in LoMM. Lets get some fixes going, the proposed Vengence damage buff increase is a nice start, but then you turn around and nerf heavy slash/heavier slash? How about making combat superiority buff ALL our attacks instead of just at wills? How about making mow down NOT wipe commanders strike debuff out so we can take advantage of artifact sets that give bonus after daily use? How about making bulls charge get the bonus when using it at ANY time, not just when running? How about a damage bonus with ITF? or maybe a big ap gain? Maybe eliminate that third strike of griffons wrath and go back to counters? I wish you would have just been honest during preview and said GF DPS is going to be the worst, so don't bother investing in it, I could have cut my losses and focused on one of my alts.

    Anyhoo, can you please honestly let us know if there is going to be some relief coming for dps gf in the future, or if it is to remain the same worst dps then break the news so we can give up on this train wreck and move on to other classes?

  • crizpynutzcrizpynutz Member Posts: 349 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    Some feedback.

    -I am not sure how you guys figured out that "you get a straight up 100k HP buff at level 80".
    -I am also not sure how you guys came up with the conclusion that shield blocks 75% of max HP on a tank setup. Maybe the potty squat does, but the bog standard shield does not, it would block 70% (50*1.4) of max HP instead.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1246318/official-m16-fighter-feedback/p13

    -You could have shortened magnitude to be "a fancy term for percent of weapon damage" hits. A 100 magnitude At-will hits for 100% of weapon damage before adding in STR/Power/buffs/etc.
    -If you're going to compare Knee Breaker to Mod 15, then you could argue it was very heavily nerfed in damage. It now only has (roughly) half of its base damage compared to Mod 15 (assuming all the DoT hits connected). Also worth noting that no DoT means you couldn't stack DoTs on target like you could with og Knee breaker.
    -Determination is very very weak for single target use. You will never get enough added damage off your At-wills/Encounters in 10 seconds to equal or exceed 1600 (or 2000) magnitude in bonus damage.
    -Buffs are still multiplicative, alwaysnoworries just decided to think it was fun to remove 95% of them from the game. So in your case, when you list the example of CSuperiority, Siege master, & Vengeance > 50%, you would have roughly 26% bonus damage on At-wills (1.2584) rather than 24% (if additive).
    -CStrike is 10% debuff, not 5%. I don't think Asterdahl will be fixing this any time soon.
    -You can swap targets with Griffons, but it's super clunky and of limited use. Hold down Griffons, then change your targeting reticle between hits.
    -Small bit of trivia, but most of the "adjusts magnitude to (x)" just add the equivalent extra damage. So in Mow Down's case, if you hit a C-Striked target, you add 2000 magnitude per hit of Mow Down. I also take some slight offense to seeing the Wombo Combo mentioned in a lolbasic 3hit combo that would make Mahvel and Melee players laugh at the lame follow up.
    -Steady Vengeance can be built it up outside of combat. Take a dump on the toilet before starting, then enjoy your free damage boost.
    -I found very little reason to pick a summoned companion since their main advantage (can get CA from them) can be mitigated by ... positioning well with teammates. In solo, I found the extra stats from an augment to be so high that I can run in, loloneshot enemies, and not have to think about positioning for CA. The only time I recall liking a summoned companion would be the Pseudodragon on some boss fights where I cannot get CA by positioning at all.

    Thanks!!!

    Some of this we definitely know was incorrect or in need of update. I was not aware of the CStrike debuff being 10% so thank you, we can factor that into the update as well. Hopefully one of us gets time to update the guide soon. Real life has been crazy and I haven't had time to get to it in a long while.
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