Barb vs Ranger

alamos · May 2019

Question to geared barbs - you finding your dmg keeps up on ST against rangers? Only asking Barbs have 2 less offense companion power slots than rangers.

reefriednunt · May 2019

I would like to know as well...from what I can tell the barbs are doing decent damage in M16 but are behind equally skilled/geared rogues wizards and rangers

kingkevin · May 2019

(Console player) I main a rogue and was wondering if I should change to a ranger or barbarian

alamos · May 2019

One thing that would help is if in blademaster spec the companion slots should be same as rogue, wiz, ranger, warloc with 3 offense instead of 3 defense.

bajancloak · May 2019

I have run a few LOMM and yes Barbs seem way behind when compared to other classes. In fact I saw the following message in a channel today - "need 1 dps non gwf 120+ lomm exp please 4/5"

akudama2 · May 2019

Cuz Barb is sux on 1st boss, even with 160k power its not sure he can kill chests so we got hard time. Others classes even with 90k or less can easy kill chests, gwf now is sux he cant kill mimics and most of them got low hp so they die easy on last boss and party lose 1 dps, all others dps are better on mimics and will survive last boss 270k+ thunder hit.

fuglymook · May 2019

Barbarian does not suck on first boss/mimics, you have to save your encounters/dailies for the mimics, I usually use 1 encounter on boss and save 2 encounters for mimics. Some encounters are better than others, Punishing Charge is great on Mimics as it helps close gap quickly and hits for decent amount of damage and the daily Savage Advance is also great to use on Mimics. The first boss in LoMM is all about the Mimics until boss hits around 30% health then just bomb on boss. The last boss you have to position yourself correctly during add phase (do not stand in middle of mobs and swing away) adds blow up when they die causing significant damage and Barbarians tend to grab agro on adds so move to attack from behind because adds hit hard. Avalanche of Steel on adds when there are 4 or more is great dps.

jmiller84 · May 2019

Barbarians can handle the first boss and mimics just fine. What most barbarians don't do, because they're not familiar with the powers, is use distance closing powers like Punishing Charge and Savage Advance. They both cover a ton of ground and proc Trample the Fallen to increase your damage on top of dealing a lot of damage themselves.

That said, Barbarians definitely seem on the low end of the dps classes now. They can still carry a party thru any content, but just don't deal as much damage as others. Though with the new 50% crit chance cap it can easily vary run to run. I've had runs where it seems like my encounters and daily powers crit like 90% of the time and others where its yellow after yellow after yellow. Not much more frustrating now in NW than waiting for your daily to finally be ready, getting positioned with CA, activating your Soulsight and blam, yellow-yellow-yellow-yellow.

Anyways, just my 2 cents.

stark760 · June 2019

Running Trample the Fallen helped a lot when I switched it for steel blitz. Have a choice, tried roar and punishing charge, but settled with not so fast as encounter to proc trample. The instant refill from relentless keeps a constant uptime, and around 11 sec cooldown anyways. Also went back to the 3% damage bonuses. Heels of Fury/Kiuno/Ebony assault(only 2 stack). Fearbringers on gloves since the daily stalls even when a clean hit most of the time. Shadowstalker +4 and +5 will stack still. Tried boots of the willed w Kiuno/Ebony assault, but lose so much from combined rating and stats, was close to a wash. Was going to try the Charged Fury Boots and shirt to add in, but hardly ever over 75% stamina. I run with a good HR and SW, done several runs now, HR does around 100 mil, SW 60-80 mil, and I'm around 55-65 mil. They also have 10k more power and get most of their DPS on the trash by running ahead. Have to deal with that, and watch how you do on the bosses if in that situation. Also, is having trouble getting combat adv, take out the pearl ring and the plated belt and put heroic comp gear +4/+5 that has combat adv/armor pen. Defense and awareness might be low, but you will cap the combat adv if you want to.

Also Not so fast easy way to build up the rage some before battle, no enemy needed and fills 20% of the bar. Trample control damage also works if others have them controlled.

tardbath · June 2019

They are running ahead because our stamina consumption/regain is totaly broken.. If they must fix one think for barbi next patch, it's the total of stamina bugs there are.
1 stamina drains like we are CW or Cleric (when we press shifht for just half a sec we lose a whole bar)
2 stamina regain takes "ages" to start working
This leads to perma 0 stamina on fights and a rly slow movement through the dungeon.

Best

stark760 · June 2019

I even tried running elven battle rank 13 from my GF to try and combat the stamina drain, still didn't make that much difference. Also hope they change one of our defense to utility or offense to make well rounded compared to other DPS.

tassedethe13 · June 2019

10% of gwf are actually good because they tried to understand the game, not faceroll the keyboard like the other 90%.

werdandi · June 2019

tassedethe13 said:
10% of gwf are actually good because they tried to understand the game, not faceroll the keyboard like the other 90%.

or maybe these 10% were using something not WAI and proccing more than expected

Just sayin...
But I agree on the principle that finding the right combination of powers and feats can take time.

mebengalsfan · June 2019

alamos#8020 said:
One thing that would help is if in blademaster spec the companion slots should be same as rogue, wiz, ranger, warloc with 3 offense instead of 3 defense.

If you haven't realized this yet than you need to and that is the developers want Barbarians to tank over being a damage dealer.

kiraskytower · June 2019

akudama2 said:
Cuz Barb is sux on 1st boss, even with 160k power its not sure he can kill chests so we got hard time. Others classes even with 90k or less can easy kill chests, gwf now is sux he cant kill mimics and most of them got low hp so they die easy on last boss and party lose 1 dps, all others dps are better on mimics and will survive last boss 270k+ thunder hit.

So, having run LotMM many times with Barbarians in the party I can tell you for sure that a barbarian who has maxed out crit/armor pen/acc and has 160K power can kill not only his mimics, but likely cover another lane as well. If you are having trouble here, the problem is YOU, not the class. In our alliance runs we have a barbarian (Chaldo) who is around 160K power who regularly out DPSes the other 2 DPS combined. Also there really is no excuse for having low hit points on a Barbarian - with 3 defense slots for companions, hit points are easy to stack. Go buy an energon ...

alamos#8020 said:
One thing that would help is if in blademaster spec the companion slots should be same as rogue, wiz, ranger, warloc with 3 offense instead of 3 defense.

Barbarian is now a Tank/DPS Class ... just like the Fighter, So like the Fighter, Barbarians are stuck with 3 Defense and 1 Offence slot. Given that Fighters and Barbarians are the 2, heavy armor wielding melee fighters in the game, it makes sense they have more defensive slots than a lightly armored class like Rogue or Wizard.

rafamarques · June 2019

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

alamos#8020 said:
One thing that would help is if in blademaster spec the companion slots should be same as rogue, wiz, ranger, warloc with 3 offense instead of 3 defense.
If you haven't realized this yet than you need to and that is the developers want Barbarians to tank over being a damage dealer.

the question is: sounds reasonable to you, new or old player, take a look to barbarians class with a primary porpose to be a tank? of course not. what every "barbarian guy" want? A damage dealer that can tank enough to protect yourself. the reason why GWFS looks like... that HAMSTER now is:

"His work, including the class reworks he was working on were distributed to various other designers. We gave those classes another pass and fixed up a bunch of issues and made various adjustments, but in the case of Barbarian there were unfinished and awkward designs that we hadn't had a change to return to until recently." - asterdahl.

like everbody know, he just "leave" the balance job, after some really bad changes, to work in the game. of course, you have some "nerf this, broken that" to move your player base between classes, etc.

mebengalsfan · June 2019

rafamarques#5700 said:

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

alamos#8020 said:
One thing that would help is if in blademaster spec the companion slots should be same as rogue, wiz, ranger, warloc with 3 offense instead of 3 defense.
If you haven't realized this yet than you need to and that is the developers want Barbarians to tank over being a damage dealer.
the question is: sounds reasonable to you, new or old player, take a look to barbarians class with a primary porpose to be a tank? of course not. what every "barbarian guy" want? A damage dealer that can tank enough to protect yourself. the reason why GWFS looks like... that HAMSTER now is:

"His work, including the class reworks he was working on were distributed to various other designers. We gave those classes another pass and fixed up a bunch of issues and made various adjustments, but in the case of Barbarian there were unfinished and awkward designs that we hadn't had a change to return to until recently." - asterdahl.

like everbody know, he just "leave" the balance job, after some really bad changes, to work in the game. of course, you have some "nerf this, broken that" to move your player base between classes, etc.

The Barbarian class in their former glory days of being a GWF during mod 15 and prior was higher performing DPS since mod 6. Now that the devs actually took time and truly adjusted the class and unfortunately it is an unfinished state. The thing is though if you look at the other classes that are tanks they also have 3 defense companion power slots, so why should the barbarian get special treatment if it is to be a tank like a Fighter or Paladin.

As for barbarian getting modified later on, hopefully the class does not get the wizard treatment of old. Every mod from 12b-15 wizards were adjusted to the point where it was costly to play one do to the changes of the class.

From what I was told, the Barbarian is not as far off as people make it out to be from the Ranger, Wizard or Rogue. In fact the Barbarian damage is right where the damage is for a Warlock and Cleric.

I'm going to use what was used against me when I start playing my wizard and that is this. You can play support so you should expect lower damage and classes that can't play support should be doing more.

I don't agree with my prior statement at all. I believe that all damage dealing classes should be within 5% of each other over the course of a full dungeon run. There will be some dungeons where a Barbarian may perform better than a Ranger, others were the Ranger perform better, ones where a Rogue is better, etc...

With the game design having been made easier to code going forward, it should be easier for the devs to fix the Barbarian and get it in a better place, hopefully in mod 17 this can happen.

rafamarques · June 2019

the point is, just for example, lets take a look to the idea that "gwfs should do less damage because have 3 defensive slots".

forget this game or your history of changes. lets supose that is your first day playing neverwinter or a rpg "X". who will choose some great sword guy thinking about be a tank? have 3 defensive slots is not a cause of that designe, but a symptom of a bad designe.

on the other hand: dodge vs defense. look... some classes have distance to protect yourself+dodge. how many points they expanded to have that? rogues have dodge being melee BUT have stealth. warlocks have sprint too, but they DONT NEED USE YOUR SPRINT TO ATTACK being a range class, so, that "imunity frame" of sprint works better. for Gwfs, even a defensive tool like your stamina are used for ofensive porpose (get close) w/o tradeoffs. what gwfs will receive to compensate that? same damage even if have 3 defensive slots?

note: guys that, by misterious forces, can be competitive exist, of course. previously, you have insanes cws doing bizarre amounts of damage too. but that dont means you have balance between damage. balance, in that simple new designe means: both classes, between the best players or mediocre ones, have the same damage. of course iam doing more damage against some cws, rangers, etc. same skills or inspiration of the day? i think not.

NOTE2: that is the most important: no matter if they overbuffed gwfs now. a lot of feats/class features and the dinamic between atwills/encounters vs rage gain/battle rage to maximize damage looks... disconnected.

the correct should be: atwills (more faster)>rage gain/battle rage>encounters rotation. that pyramid still reversed

mebengalsfan · June 2019

rafamarques#5700 said:
the point is, just for example, lets take a look to the idea that "gwfs should do less damage because have 3 defensive slots".

forget this game or your history of changes. lets supose that is your first day playing neverwinter or a rpg "X". who will choose some great sword guy thinking about be a tank? have 3 defensive slots is not a cause of that designe, but a symptom of a bad designe.

on the other hand: dodge vs defense. look... some classes have distance to protect yourself+dodge. how many points they expanded to have that? rogues have dodge being melee BUT have stealth. warlocks have sprint too, but they DONT NEED USE YOUR SPRINT TO ATTACK being a range class, so, that "imunity frame" of sprint works better. for Gwfs, even a defensive tool like your stamina are used for ofensive porpose (get close) w/o tradeoffs. what gwfs will receive to compensate that? same damage even if have 3 defensive slots?

note: guys that, by misterious forces, can be competitive exist, of course. previously, you have insanes cws doing bizarre amounts of damage too. but that dont means you have balance between damage. balance, in that simple new designe means: both classes, between the best players or mediocre ones, have the same damage. of course iam doing more damage against some cws, rangers, etc. same skills or inspiration of the day? i think not.

NOTE2: that is the most important: no matter if they overbuffed gwfs now. a lot of feats/class features and the dinamic between atwills/encounters vs rage gain/battle rage to maximize damage looks... disconnected.

the correct should be: atwills (more faster)>rage gain/battle rage>encounters rotation. that pyramid still reversed

As a Barb you chose to run into battle instead of normal movement like everyone else to get close. Rogue and Ranger both would also not have any stamina if they used it to move into battle faster like most Barbs do. That is a choice made by the player to run ahead and use their stamina.

When I hear Barbarian I think of a high HP damage dealing TANK. I didn't say HIGH DAMAGE dealing tank. I said HIGH HIT POINT damage dealing tank. By the way I said TANK and said it a few times. Three defensive slots should be expected.

I do agree that role should determine what your companion slots are, not class.

Damage Dealer gets 3 offensive, 1 Def, 1 Utility
Tank gets 3 defensive, 1 offensive, 1 utility
Healer 2 utility, 2 offensive, and 1 defensive

New Role ???: 3 utility and 1 offense and 1 defensive

If a new role is not added, give 3 utility to the healer with 1 off and 1 def

rafamarques · June 2019

1 - Barbarians don’t have a HAMSTER bow, or get close in stealth, hit hard, and use a large dodge movement to avoid the counter attack… etc, etc, etc. will be really necessary discuss detail by detail? your gameplay dont say enough?

2- ...well, i see in every game OR MEDIA a barbarian guy - or some generic guy using a big sword - being main strikers; somethimes more tough than should, but strikers.

annyway... my point, is: if the playerbase dont roll a gwf to be a a "defender" or have less damage than the others despites to have - a little - more resistance (and have more resistance DONT MEANS have more ability to survive) why should now? to make other playerbases feel avenged? dont make sense

mebengalsfan · June 2019

rafamarques#5700 said:
1 - Barbarians don’t have a HAMSTER bow, or get close in stealth, hit hard, and use a large dodge movement to avoid the counter attack… etc, etc, etc. will be really necessary discuss detail by detail? your gameplay dont say enough?

2- ...well, i see in every game OR MEDIA a barbarian guy - or some generic guy using a big sword - being main strikers; somethimes more tough than should, but strikers.

annyway... my point, is: if the playerbase dont roll a gwf to be a a "defender" or have less damage than the others despites to have - a little - more resistance (and have more resistance DONT MEANS have more ability to survive) why should now? to make other playerbases feel avenged? dont make sense

GWF were off tanks up until mod 5; mod 6 made GWF pure DPS. Like I stated in another thread, mod 16 is moving the game back to mod 5 and making it easier by removing class complexity. This means Barb are tanks once again.

durugudesu · June 2019

Im surprised not much gwfs has replied on how their damage is on par with rangers, who imo is at the bottom of the dps/dps classes (but i think play a decent ranger).

I ran with 2 gwfs in a lotmm and they did fairly well.

rjc9000 · June 2019

durugudesu said:
Im surprised not much gwfs has replied on how their damage is on par with rangers, who imo is at the bottom of the dps/dps classes (but i think play a decent ranger).

I ran with 2 gwfs in a lotmm and they did fairly well.

Are you sure that it's not you that needs to git gud? After all, if you're dealing less damage, the Barbies are dealing more damage, right?

rafamarques · June 2019

"GWF were off tanks up until mod 5; mod 6 made GWF pure DPS. Like I stated in another thread, mod 16 is moving the game back to mod 5 and making it easier by removing class complexity. This means Barb are tanks once again."

rsrssrs... Until module 15 cws are, for the most of time, "off" dps... primary CONTROLLER (by designe) or buffer and/or secundary strikers. Gwfs are ´PRIMARY striker (by designe or pratice) and secundary tank..

Historical speaking
Best damages:
Mod 1 - cw >gwf
Mod 2 -gwf>ranger=cw
Mod 3 - gwf>cw (in general)
Come nerf hammer for gwfs because of some soy wizards:
Mod 4 - sw or rogue, not sure>gwf(sentinel)
Mod 5 - not sure too… but gwfs are not in the top three.
6 to 15 - I don’t need explain…
So no… since the very beginning gwfs are main strikers, dealing more damage moduleXmodule than any other class…

agilesto · June 2019

DPS needs to have 3 offensive, and tank 3 defensive, nothing wrong with that. DPS-only classes have no problem, but dual-role classes do. Why in Earth would a DPS Barb (or GF) be treated as a tank and have 3 defensive pet slots? Because it has a tank path? Nonsense.
The allocation of companion slots needs to be done by the role of your character not by the class. You're a Barb/GF? Good, let's see what spec you chose. DPS? => Get your 3 offensive slots. Tank? Get your 3 defensive slots.

And the stamina regeneration needs to be looked at. It's been broken forever, but now that we actually need to avoid stuff because the lifesteal and unstop don't compensate that broken stamina, it really becomes a problem to have a perma-empty stamina bar.

I find Barb can deal decent damage, I don't have any problem finishing dungeons. That said, our only viable at-will AoE is an absolute joke when not used in battlerage mode. Our dailies are useless/broken I do more dmg on encounters than dailies, and our AoE daily has a very long cast and doesn't grant control immunity so can't use it.

To answer the question since I'm a Barb and main it since I began playing, we can pull off decent damage, and can still be used on dungeons. But at equal skill, I'm in no possibility to match HR/CW dmg. I don't play lot with rogues so can't really say, but HR/CW are just stratospheric. Not that it's a bad thing, I just wished Barb were a bit looked after. And GF/SW too if the consensus is the same for them.

And for people saying GWF has been the best dps since Mod 6, no it has been the most constant that's different. In this period the class didn't change an inch when the others did. In recent mods CW/HR/TR were totally fine, GF dps had its glory period as well as TR and SW (broken interactions but you have to do with what you have). SW were generally behind recently sadly, but don't say GWF has been best for years. It has been the most constant, and generally most user-friendly than let's say TR that's all.

mebengalsfan · June 2019

rafamarques#5700 said:
"GWF were off tanks up until mod 5; mod 6 made GWF pure DPS. Like I stated in another thread, mod 16 is moving the game back to mod 5 and making it easier by removing class complexity. This means Barb are tanks once again."

rsrssrs... Until module 15 cws are, for the most of time, "off" dps... primary CONTROLLER (by designe) or buffer and/or secundary strikers. Gwfs are ´PRIMARY striker (by designe or pratice) and secundary tank..

Historical speaking
Best damages:
Mod 1 - cw >gwf
Mod 2 -gwf>ranger=cw
Mod 3 - gwf>cw (in general)
Come nerf hammer for gwfs because of some soy wizards:
Mod 4 - sw or rogue, not sure>gwf(sentinel)
Mod 5 - not sure too… but gwfs are not in the top three.
6 to 15 - I don’t need explain…
So no… since the very beginning gwfs are main strikers, dealing more damage moduleXmodule than any other class…

Have you ever played Dungeon and Dragons? Wizard and Rogues should always be top damage dealers. Wizards as AoE with high burst damage. Rogue with its stealth and its high burst damage.

All other classes are used to help control the battle field to help distract, heal, buff, etc... so that a rogue can quickly take out the stronger enemies. Wizards are used to help control the battle field by killing larger mobs or by helping the rogue chip down the top boss health.

In a D&D game both the rogue and wizard maybe top damage dealer but they are also true glass cannon where they do a lot of damage but they also tend to die easily; especially wizards. Rogues have a bit more to survive mostly as they require it since they are a melee based class.

NWO did their own thing. I mean GF were even top DPS since mod 9 if a player built them correctly; most didn't build a GF dps but it was viable. Come mod 10 the so called meta with a GF DPS, OP Devo, DC, Templock and DPS that many were running for CR was the group I had for FBI and we burned through it just fine.

Please keep in mind whatever you had in prior mods don't matter any more. It is a new game basically; all the prior mods and build up to mod 15 don't matter. NWO mod 16 is basically restarting the game and that is why I stopped playing my cleric and fighter as I don't like the class mechanic changes made to those classes. Wizard and Rangers are the lone classes where the combat is similar to prior mods and it is why I decided on my making my wizard my main.

durugudesu · June 2019

> @rjc9000 said:
> Im surprised not much gwfs has replied on how their damage is on par with rangers, who imo is at the bottom of the dps/dps classes (but i think play a decent ranger).
>
>
>
> I ran with 2 gwfs in a lotmm and they did fairly well.
>
> Are you sure that it's not you that needs to git gud? After all, if you're dealing less damage, the Barbies are dealing more damage, right?

OMG you are right... Why has it never occurred to me that i was playing sub par? Maybe i thought i knew everything already, but i really didn't??
#saidno[insertclasshere]ever

rafamarques · June 2019

Ok ... solved the Historical argument, let's continue:

To accept that premise - we are "off tanks" now - gwfs/bladmaster need resources that exceeded the top 3 DD' survivability + compensation for inferior damage AND LOGISTICS DISADVANTAGES.

the offensive difference between the "top 3" dps are just 3 offensive slots? Because the defensive diference between bladmasters and the same"top 3" are the 3 defensive slots.

In any case, look ... let's admit we got the necessary defensive buffs: who demanded that, our playerbase or your playerbase?

case closed.

giz · June 2019

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

Have you ever played Dungeon and Dragons? Wizard and Rogues should always be top damage dealers.

So, if someone wants to still playing this game as DPS you are forced to play Wizard, Rogue? A game with only two DPS classes as viable DPS? How about people that don't like Wizard, Rogue? When you made a character with a class that was marked as DPS, and queued only as DPS? Not as Defender, off-tank, etc. I think that all DPS paths should be equally effective regardless if they are DPS/DPS class or DPS/support class, and devs said the same, all DPS paths should be equally good., not for having a support role you're condemned to be a potato damage dealer.

vorphied · June 2019

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

Have you ever played Dungeon and Dragons? Wizard and Rogues should always be top damage dealers.

Just popping in to mention that this is not that game. Trying to apply tabletop reasoning to NW is always a bad idea. We are playing an MMO inspired by D&D source material, and that's it.

Barb vs Ranger

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