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the state of dps classes now

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  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,035 Arc User
    Arbiter dps is fine where is it imo. It is fairly close to the "pure dps" classes when you take similar stats/equipment into consideration. Sure our dps may not be at it's best for single target, but we make up for that with AoE dps, the more targets and more grouped up, the better. Even in single target cases, like the mimic phase in LoMM, we can easily hold our own lane. Divinity management requires skill to be effective, and plays a large part of our sustainable dps. It took me all preview (yay free respecs!) to master it myself. I like it that way though, I prefer it to the mindless button mash of other classes.
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    @pariswinters#7118 i'll leave this for now, as you main complaint is regarding arbiting, once the next major patch drops, i'll try convince Silv3ery to focus on her arbiter and get back to u with results, you can also pme ingame. If she cant perform with arbiter then its the class, she's the expert with dc/op stuff.
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,035 Arc User

    arazith07 said:

    Arbiter dps is fine where is it imo. It is fairly close to the "pure dps" classes when you take similar stats/equipment into consideration. Sure our dps may not be at it's best for single target, but we make up for that with AoE dps, the more targets and more grouped up, the better. Even in single target cases, like the mimic phase in LoMM, we can easily hold our own lane. Divinity management requires skill to be effective, and plays a large part of our sustainable dps. It took me all preview (yay free respecs!) to master it myself. I like it that way though, I prefer it to the mindless button mash of other classes.

    its so funny that all you guys just assume i have no idea how to play arbiter and just come here to cry cause I can't be top dps.
    you're like the 3rd person in this thread who is giving me advice on how to play my character.
    If i wanted advice i would have said so. I know my class, i know my feats and i know how to use my powers.
    from my experience Arbiter is not equal to most other dps classes....i feel they are about equal to barbarian though, or OP tank spamming dailies LOL
    I wasn't giving advice to you, I was just expressing my gameplay experience. However, since you brought it up, when your experience defers from those who are doing well, it's usually because of a difference in play style or rotation. I don't have any special artifacts, or doohickies either. I don't even have BiS equipment, I even have less power and less CA than you do, I honestly have no idea why you are experiencing less dps if it's not something to do with feats, powers, or rotation. So I am not surprised that people would suggest such things.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    Personally, I'd like to see the healing paths do light auto-healing, then choose skills that either do more healing, supports, or DPS. All one or the other seems boring to me. There are many times when you get into a random & realize that the team needs no heals or tanks. Then your just a 5th wheel.
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    > @arazith07 said:
    > Arbiter dps is fine where is it imo. It is fairly close to the "pure dps" classes when you take similar stats/equipment into consideration. Sure our dps may not be at it's best for single target, but we make up for that with AoE dps, the more targets and more grouped up, the better. Even in single target cases, like the mimic phase in LoMM, we can easily hold our own lane. Divinity management requires skill to be effective, and plays a large part of our sustainable dps. It took me all preview (yay free respecs!) to master it myself. I like it that way though, I prefer it to the mindless button mash of other classes.

    Arbiter AoE is bad compared to that of most other DPS. There is one good AoE encounter...one. I don’t consider DL to be one because the casting delay combined with the small splat make for an unsatisfying and inconsistent experience, especially when managing stacks is essential for it to hit hard in the first place.

    AoE at-wills are surprisingly decent, but so, so slow.

    Handling mimics is a very low bar for success in single-target, and Arbiter does not lack for sheer magnitude there. It’s the bigger picture that puts it near the bottom of the ladder. This is really not fine.

    Finally, this “pure DPS” nonsense really ought to stop. Why have a DPS path at all if it’s not intended to be any good? They didn’t need to create one just for soloing....
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • drumon88drumon88 Member Posts: 142 Arc User
    > @pariswinters#7118 said:
    > so this mod has been live for like a month now....
    > been doing a few group dungeons here and there....
    > i play every class as well...
    >
    > My general consensus is that wizard is overpowered, and is top dps now......
    > warlock is #2
    > ranger is #3
    > rogue is #4
    > arbiter cleric is #5
    > Paladin tank is #6
    > and both fighter and barbarian are tied for lowest dps
    >
    > i don't feel any class needs nerfs but it does seem that wizard is disproportionately more powerful then all the other classes....and paladin tank has some strange ability to constantly spam daily powers at will in PVE or they wouldn't even be in my DPS classes list
    >
    > I base these assumptions on runs i have done with players in the 20-25k range with about the same gear as i run on my 22k cleric.
    > just did 10 or so codg with a few different players being swapped around between runs.....a few times i was top dps....but mostly a wizard with nearly the same gear as me was doing 2x my dps or more....same with ranger and rogue....there are definitely some balance issues going on that need to be looked into with scrutiny by someone who is qualified to do this kind of thing.
    >
    > thoughts?

    Even against a largely stationary boss AND with Fireball bugged to not apply Scorch it's been my experience that CW is 20-30% ahead of any other class. They also have the best AoE ability, capable of slotting up to 4 different ones, which apply DOTs and have great CC+dmg synergies, and are less hamstrung by losing crit to scaling than most other classes.

    TR is #2 for single target and has okay AoE, probably #4 for AoE. Hampered a lot in scaled content because so much of that dps potential is reliant on being at crit cap.

    HR is #3 for single target, ~25-30% behind CW, but has strong AoE, probably second.

    Barb is #4 in single target but is also severely hampered by scaling due to losing crit sev as well as crit. Also hampered on highly mobile bosses or those with frequent point blank AoEs due to low time on target due to relatively poor mobility/survivability compared to TR or HR. Barb AoE is mediocre to bad, heavily reliant on positioning and crit, with only 1 high magnitude AoE ability which is both directional and on a long cooldown, and being very susceptible to chain CC.

    SW is weak single target due to only having 1 high magnitude encounter and the disaster that is Soul Scorch. Its AoE is good with proper positioning but bad if anybody's using knockbacks or vs. highly mobile enemies since it's reliant on keeping enemies grouped up and stationary for curse application. Its big single target daily is bugged as well, lasting half as long as the tooltip says. Also extremely hampered in scaled content due to being crit dependent for soul spark generation.

    Arbiter cleric ST is probably #5 but suffers sustain issues if RNG isn't on your side or you lag for 1 second and screw up your balance. Arbiter AoE is strong but somewhat dependent on positioning and is bursty and also has sustain issues, most notable in the lower level skirmishes where you don't get much if any OOC divinity regen.

    Fighter DPS is abysmal, routinely outperformed by all 3 tank specs (especially tankadin with their broken daily spam).

    Using strictly new gear there's about a 9% dps spread vs. a boss dummy in single target. HOWEVER. Scaling impacts some classes a lot more than others, and that isn't taking into account the much higher time on target the pure ranged classes will have over the melee and hybrid classes, short windows of opportunity that favor bursty classes, or how old gear synergizes much better with some classes than others.

    End result? A CW played well will dominate in MEs or LOMM. 50-100% more damage than the next best DPS played with the same skill and with comparable gear. That CW will do 4-5x more boss damage (the damage that really, REALLY matters) than a SW or Arbiter cleric under the same metrics. And at the same time, that CW is bringing a party buff (controlled momentum) and fairly significant debuffs (AoE slow, AoE root, AoE stun, significant damage debuff from Ray of Enfeeblement) that no other class offers, AND that stacks/synergizes with a second or 3rd CW. Going to scaled content a CW will be doing 300-1000% more damage than the next highest (I see this firsthand almost every time I run RLQ and get Dread Legion, my 14k CW is doing between 4-9 million when nobody else is over 1 million and frequently down in the 700k range even if they're 18k ilvl or higher).

    And this means a pally tank, pally healer, and 3x CW will significantly outperform any other group comp by a large amount in all content but particularly endgame.
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 583 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    deleted cause I just read that @lardeson covered that
    - bye bye -
  • finmakinfinmakin Member Posts: 378 Arc User
    I am selling big buckets of Popcorn and watch the everlasting complainers :)
    Ogguk Sanctus… Justicar Paladin
    Puny Tank

    Guildleader of NWLC Alpha
  • rev#7881 rev Member Posts: 334 Arc User
    The main problem of the cleric isn't the dmg itself, its how long it takes to get to that dmg because of the stupid pip mechanic, by the time we get full pips everything is pretty much dead
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    drumon88 said:

    > @pariswinters#7118 said:

    > so this mod has been live for like a month now....

    > been doing a few group dungeons here and there....

    > i play every class as well...

    >

    > My general consensus is that wizard is overpowered, and is top dps now......

    > warlock is #2

    > ranger is #3

    > rogue is #4

    > arbiter cleric is #5

    > Paladin tank is #6

    > and both fighter and barbarian are tied for lowest dps

    >

    > i don't feel any class needs nerfs but it does seem that wizard is disproportionately more powerful then all the other classes....and paladin tank has some strange ability to constantly spam daily powers at will in PVE or they wouldn't even be in my DPS classes list

    >

    > I base these assumptions on runs i have done with players in the 20-25k range with about the same gear as i run on my 22k cleric.

    > just did 10 or so codg with a few different players being swapped around between runs.....a few times i was top dps....but mostly a wizard with nearly the same gear as me was doing 2x my dps or more....same with ranger and rogue....there are definitely some balance issues going on that need to be looked into with scrutiny by someone who is qualified to do this kind of thing.

    >

    > thoughts?



    Even against a largely stationary boss AND with Fireball bugged to not apply Scorch it's been my experience that CW is 20-30% ahead of any other class. They also have the best AoE ability, capable of slotting up to 4 different ones, which apply DOTs and have great CC+dmg synergies, and are less hamstrung by losing crit to scaling than most other classes.



    TR is #2 for single target and has okay AoE, probably #4 for AoE. Hampered a lot in scaled content because so much of that dps potential is reliant on being at crit cap.



    HR is #3 for single target, ~25-30% behind CW, but has strong AoE, probably second.



    Barb is #4 in single target but is also severely hampered by scaling due to losing crit sev as well as crit. Also hampered on highly mobile bosses or those with frequent point blank AoEs due to low time on target due to relatively poor mobility/survivability compared to TR or HR. Barb AoE is mediocre to bad, heavily reliant on positioning and crit, with only 1 high magnitude AoE ability which is both directional and on a long cooldown, and being very susceptible to chain CC.



    SW is weak single target due to only having 1 high magnitude encounter and the disaster that is Soul Scorch. Its AoE is good with proper positioning but bad if anybody's using knockbacks or vs. highly mobile enemies since it's reliant on keeping enemies grouped up and stationary for curse application. Its big single target daily is bugged as well, lasting half as long as the tooltip says. Also extremely hampered in scaled content due to being crit dependent for soul spark generation.



    Arbiter cleric ST is probably #5 but suffers sustain issues if RNG isn't on your side or you lag for 1 second and screw up your balance. Arbiter AoE is strong but somewhat dependent on positioning and is bursty and also has sustain issues, most notable in the lower level skirmishes where you don't get much if any OOC divinity regen.



    Fighter DPS is abysmal, routinely outperformed by all 3 tank specs (especially tankadin with their broken daily spam).



    Using strictly new gear there's about a 9% dps spread vs. a boss dummy in single target. HOWEVER. Scaling impacts some classes a lot more than others, and that isn't taking into account the much higher time on target the pure ranged classes will have over the melee and hybrid classes, short windows of opportunity that favor bursty classes, or how old gear synergizes much better with some classes than others.



    End result? A CW played well will dominate in MEs or LOMM. 50-100% more damage than the next best DPS played with the same skill and with comparable gear. That CW will do 4-5x more boss damage (the damage that really, REALLY matters) than a SW or Arbiter cleric under the same metrics. And at the same time, that CW is bringing a party buff (controlled momentum) and fairly significant debuffs (AoE slow, AoE root, AoE stun, significant damage debuff from Ray of Enfeeblement) that no other class offers, AND that stacks/synergizes with a second or 3rd CW. Going to scaled content a CW will be doing 300-1000% more damage than the next highest (I see this firsthand almost every time I run RLQ and get Dread Legion, my 14k CW is doing between 4-9 million when nobody else is over 1 million and frequently down in the 700k range even if they're 18k ilvl or higher).



    And this means a pally tank, pally healer, and 3x CW will significantly outperform any other group comp by a large amount in all content but particularly endgame.

    so you are just here assuming numbers after running dread legion? OK that cw is 30-50% above TR? where? HR above SW? in what game? the reason you outdps anyone outside LMM is simple, have u checked ur stats compared to them? that stats dont matter in scaled content? its not like ur stats are completely brought down to that of the other party members, do you realise a fresh player can random que any lvl 70 content without having any clue of how their character works?

    I find it funny that it is in scaled contents where u guys do your tests, HR contantly outdpses anyone but in LMM do dont do much, except for i repeat 1 or 2 good HRs in the game.

    @pariswinters#7118 well sorry if you feel insulted, i cant take a stand until i've tested something by myself, thats why i want to test the dc before going with the popular opinion. And from the many comments i see just assuming CW is too broken, sorry but most have no clue, TR and CW are on the same level, if you cant see that, you are playing the wrong game. The only broken stuff on Cw are currently the face we have 10 more ability scores than other classes, most likely a bug, but again thats 2.5% total to the buffs u get from ability scores, that isn't = 2.5% damage, it means u can have 0.5 to ap, 0.5 to speed, 0.5 to damage, etc.
    The other being the fact that even if i feel its not needed, some people rely too much on the rimefire smolder to do damage and tbf i believe its overperforming, i've got an act log from @quickfoot#7851 where it did 34%. which for a feat its clearly off, now i dont rely much on that, the highest i've ever got from rimefire is 19%. even with arcanist im ok. In fact if they fixed ap gain, arcanist is what I and most cws would be playing. that being said if in 126m rimefire was like 21-24m that means i still did 102m and if i took a different feat and played accordingly, i'd still be in the range of 110-126m. Cw has ridiculously high cds compared to others, the only take is our aoe power, on bosses we are on par with tr and sw, i have said it before and we say it again, in aoe, cw will most likely outdps you cos we have ranged aoe powers, but thats not a broken mechanic, its part of the class, melee classes on the other hand have higher speed cos of dexterity.

    if we take away the directed flames feat, we'd still be the top dps with tr, reason is that other classes are underperforming, due to limitations, dc has slow rotations cos of divinity, the good aoe sw has requires good positioning, Barbs, Gfs need to be close to dps, rangers have it easier since they can easily switch stances but yet most of them do alot lower damage than u'd expect. I made the Mag/s calculation for this, if we take out feats and features from classes, the mag/s is more or less in place, if you have suggestions to help improve your class, its better to give them and just go off complaining classes are broken cos they outdps you.
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    i actually hope they make everyone dps and then we'll spend 10 hours looking for heals or tanks for contents then complain again
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,035 Arc User
    Searing javelin is the main aoe I use, which can be cast multiple times, using the sudden judgement procs to give us momentum to keep up the heat. I hardly wait for full pips on trash, except when using BTS on the big guy and hoping for a sudden judgement, or using Divine glow to get full pips in between pulls. But even an unbuffed searing javelin can do almost 500k total damage on a standard pack of 4 monsters....way more if you were to pull several groups together since searing javelin has no discernible target cap. Oh how I love it when the tank pulls that last stretch in MSP. But really, comparing dps in scaled content in the current state of scaling is a bit silly since scaling acts differently depending on what you use and heavily encourages overstacking stats, and those with legendary mounts or doohickies will get a huge boost to total damage.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,035 Arc User
    I realize the above won't get anywhere with the op, but I wrote it in the hopes that others see it and start to experiment more with builds.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User

    Some wizards figured soon how to maximize their build. Most are experienced players that survived 3 complete class revamp and lots of nerfs. They are used to adapt. And some dos learn fast.



    Sometimes i run with other cws and finish LoMM with double or triple their dmg.



    I found some very good rogues, warlocks, Rangers and sometimes 1 good barbarian.



    I think if you take the best of the best players with same equipment. The didderence un DPS would be very small.



    People ask all time to give your build and other things, most are lost because there arent still guides and detailed info of M16.



    Most people cant learn by themselves and then come to the forum asking for nerfs. This was allways the same since game released.

    The problem is there are no in game tools for players to test thing out to see how a player is performing on say a sparing target or in real content. In other games I played there were tools that would allow me to setup time interval from 10 seconds up to 30 minutes to check my damage. As long as I was doing damage it provided me some type of basis. The devs than used this info that player were capturing to turn around and modify the game. It wasn't a perfect system but better than nothing at all.

    The problem doing this is that there were many buffs in mod 15 and there are still some in mod 16, but not to the level we saw in mod 15.

    In all honestly DPS classes should never truly be fully balance and the reason for this is each class should have a specific function it is better at than other classes. Looking at the Barb and Hunter they are more designed for close knit AoE situation. They should produce more damage than a rouge when surrounded by adds; but on single targets in a close knit situation the rogue should be king for melee based damage.

    If the game truly cares about giving players builds than they should not make each range or melee cookie cutter of each other. Basically you use this ability every 12 seconds or 15 second because it does X damage, than this ability, etc... etc....etc...

    NWO mod 16 design for classes is closer to cookie cutter design than a complex system that provides player with unique builds and variety making each class feel different. IMO, the choice mention when mod 16 first came out, is on the role more than actual build choices. That communication was deceiving.

  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    Searing javelin is the main aoe I use, which can be cast multiple times, using the sudden judgement procs to give us momentum to keep up the heat. I hardly wait for full pips on trash, except when using BTS on the big guy and hoping for a sudden judgement, or using Divine glow to get full pips in between pulls. But even an unbuffed searing javelin can do almost 500k total damage on a standard pack of 4 monsters....way more if you were to pull several groups together since searing javelin has no discernible target cap. Oh how I love it when the tank pulls that last stretch in MSP. But really, comparing dps in scaled content in the current state of scaling is a bit silly since scaling acts differently depending on what you use and heavily encourages overstacking stats, and those with legendary mounts or doohickies will get a huge boost to total damage.

    When conditions are right and RNG works in your favor, sure, you can have some satisfying results with trash AoE. For a time.

    When conditions are not favorable and RNG does not throw Sudden Verdicts your way, however, the outcome is very different. Damage over time is lackluster without building at least some pips, and it eventually grinds to a virtual halt when Sudden Verdicts stop coming in and Divine Glow is on cooldown, necessitating several seconds of casting slow-animating AoE at-wills on mobs that are already dying.

    I don't think it's that posters in this thread don't know the fundamental mechanics of playing Arbiter; it's that Arbiter isn't very good compared to most of its peers. Again, simply being able to run scaled content, handle one's own mimics at Arcturia, and finish LOMM are base, minimal expectations.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    Personally, I think CW was just very well thought out. Between the different devs and feedback from people like @thefabricant , I think CW was just done right, not that CW is broken. Other classes' feats and class features tend to lack the synergy with their core class mechanics that wizard has right now. TR also was done pretty good. In the last LoMM run I got out DPS'd by a TR, granted he was 25k w/ ~175k power and I am about 22.9k with 150k power.

    Again, I want to make it clear, I'm not saying CW is broken or overpowered, for the love of god no. What I am saying is that class features and feats break the formula the devs use to balance powers across the classes. The classes that are not doing well DPS wise, typically have poorly designed class features and feats, and usually those target one power (sometimes one nobody uses, wasted feat). For example, on my Barbarian, I totally considered not taking either of the last 2 feats. TR's and HR's also have feats that synergize well with the class mechanics as a whole. I am by no means an expert in anything, I'm fairly competent on my cw, but that's it, I have minimal insight into how the other classes work except from doing farming stuff on my alts. Cleric/Arbiter is special case, ime I really do think it's one of the most complex dps classes to play, you really have to pay attention to your stacks and divinity, and know what your feats are doing and how they affect your rotation. One miscast of an at-will and you can waste a full stack of judgment or whatever and lose an empowered encounter. (sorry if my terminology is wrong there, I don't play my cleric that often). In short, Cleric DPS I think is really only for certain people, and in some games they have classes that are for "Experts" at the game, I think Arbiter falls into that category, not everyone can master it, so it's difficult to give good feedback on.

  • durugudesudurugudesu Member Posts: 554 Arc User
    The gap in damage from people with ~same stats/ play style(i dislike saying skill level cause it will just add flames) wouldnt be like more than 20% for sure. In an ideal team, 3 dps 1 heal 1 tank, the 2 top dps can be a bit far from the 3rd dps, for example like a dps that just focuses on single target or so. The gap will only become smaller if the tank/heals is an op because well, theyre kinda op.

    If there is something to be looked at, it should be the fighter dps cause right now.. Even i feel bad for them. I play an okay hr, and aside from the daily, the highest damaging encounter magnitude is 425 i think. (or 450) and atwills for like 30~40 for aoe and 60~80 for single target(cant remember exactly, the point is less than 100 and definitely way less than other classes). But because hrs can have short cooldowns, it allows them to do damage over time. Its the trade off. For arbiters you have the ability to deal millions in one short burst of time.

    Youre experience is on lotmm. 2 of 3 boss fights has phases within them. And you have less time to max out everything before you hit, because with the other 2 dps, they deal enough fast to trigger the next phases, and so you are not able to deal your "max" damage. Its only on the last boss that you can really shine without problems. Maybe try it again and base your tests on longer fights and maybe you'll see results differently.
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