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[UPDATE] Q&A Stream Follow up & Next Steps

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  • lordtweety#3604 lordtweety Member Posts: 275 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    Stop feeding the


    Priceless.
    Main: Angels Scar
    Guild: Ruathym Corsairs
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 663 Arc User
    If you allow (force?) new players and veterans to run the same stuff for the same rewards nothing will change, regardless how you switch up or down the difficulty.
    On that note, I think we are confusing difficulty for scaling if we are discussing that people are pissed off? I only heard new people complain about difficulty in dungeons - as long as older content like tong is doable. And that was only worth a discussion because lomm wasn't live. Otherwise some ppl might have tried tong but would've been like "well lets do lomm until they adressed it"
    I don't mind if new players have a hard time in raq, thats the difficulty we need. What I mind is running stuff for twice as long for the same results, as so many people have already pointed out, I know, I am sorry, but it seems to be a hard concept to get.
    If anybody wants to run riq it can be difficult for all I care, but compared to the people that are supposed to run it.
    Demo and Tia should be comparable to their campaigns. On my main I followed the old list of campaigns from top to bottom. I was far from geared up top when I did campaigns like Sharandar, Maze, Underdark and so on. That means I also went geared like that and ran around like a headless idiot in related dungeons or skirms
    Imo that leaves two options:
    - its much easier for me to do now at over 20k IL than it was when I just started or
    - there are different variants for dungeons, with different rewards.

    Like kteam to some extent.

    A lot of this discussion depends heavily on the content you run. If you only run premade groups on tong/lomm its still chill. I have yet to hear somebody really complaining that tong takes longer.
    But I have heard new players that literally just started and are already close to 20k saying they want to try lomm (happy rqing) when they can't run tia.
    And I couldn't run tia with them, either. Was it impossible? No! But it was impossible to do with people that haven't done it before, and since its tia, and you might get to it quite a lot of time before endgame (I hope...) they tried it, why wouldn't they...
    So, when I'm in tia with a lot of newbies and right and left people are lighting up in greens like a christmas tree I ... try. But like... People don't want to discuss a strategy for tia. Cause... Its tia. Its a rq. I get a voucher and some AD. Its not worth it. All thats worth it is an an abandon instance call.

    VT and all those riqs do indeed have a mechanic somewhere, but many people don't know them anymore. Yes, because they could just burn it before. Are 11-15k people queuing up for them gonna to a field study on it? Probably not. Is this gonna <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> of the whole group? Yes. I already had this topic in guild/alliance, and I got an answer: Well they got to learn mechanics before queueing!
    Well okay, but then it has to be worth it.

    But yeah I can see the other side to some extent.
    - bye bye -
  • gripnir78gripnir78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    Lets be honest here - scalling is a mess - and no matter what - current system is simply impossible to get corrected.
    benyr said:


    The problem we have with the current scaling is that a dungeon realeased today is X hard. Due to scaling regardless if what you do to your toon it will still be X hard in 6 months and still be X hard in 5 years.



    That pretty much sums up everything - untill we talk about pre MOD 16 content - witch is I am gueassing a @devs real resoning here. - and still I can explain myself why, havin so many different options to choose from, to do really working scalling they choose the worst one witch litterally cuts of 50% (or more) of toons everything.

    Latest dungeons avilable only on hardcore/hard modes - with easier modes added later, but still within some difficulty tiers (like oldest dungeon hard would still be easier than newer "easy" mode) -with apropriate rewards following.

    Yes I am aware that there are a lot of campaigns to complete for a players, but why dont graduate them a bit as well? When a new campaigns eventually kicks in would it be equal to current one or a bit harder (with use of ratings)? SO if they do not plan to increase Level Cap with every MOD they have to adjust difficulty somehow right?

    And @devs if you hope that next updates bringing new content will helptp sort this out - then you are wrong - this game and our - players patience wont last that long - no 1 would wait another 5 years for new - MOD 16 mechanics based content will be majority of existing content.

    So @devs @mimicking#6533 , why, ffs, why if it gona end up with rating based difficulty anyway you need to hamster up so much contnet now? Make it all level 80 content with substantial ratings differences and here you are all problems solved. If you cant save campaigns like that - at least save dungeons attached to them.

    BTW - look at it form that angle - you made so much to help this game prevail, but I belive accidently you broke its root. Fix it asap or this game dies.....
  • gripnir78gripnir78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 374 Arc User

    @benyr when game was launched all the dungeons were difficult to do, everyone that started the game loved it, and the gap between end game player and new player wasnt that huge, by that i mean a endgame player wasnt trashing the content in few minutes, to add on top of that release of module 1, module 2 and module 3 wasnt making huge changes, even the gear that was released was slightly better, but not huge, so CN still wasnt obsolete by malabog and valindra, did the game had progression? Yes it had, and we had more than 1 Dungeon to run, we were running problably 10 different Dungeons, doing PvP on daily basis either gauntlegrym or domination. There were bad things back then, but progression, difficulty and rewards were the right thing. Module 6 release i thought is goin to improve what the game lacked, alot of you new players started the game, now maybe this is a reason for not adapting and accepting m16 changes, but since m6 till m15 the game was bleeding players endlessly, even in m15 my friendlist had only 5 players online, now in m16 i see alot of them online, point is m16 is doing alot of good things, that perhaps in the future they will be easy to digest for those that havent been around day 1. Developers did listened to our feedback, even class , scaling, companion, boon revamp , even adding magical, physical and projectile damage was from us players. You said it that execution was terrible, imo it could ve been worse.. i think most of the things are in a better spot than the first day of m16 on preview, and they still keep fixing stuff. Now you have to understand that i am apart of the minority, and i dont take the majority of ppl side or cryptic side necessarly, i just consider m16 a step in a good direction, and from here on more things can be added and done for the game, perhaps the developers realized it themselves how mich time they spend to make a module and the next module they make their own work obsolete. While this didnt changed in m16 bcuz ppl run the new dungeon and master expedition, i wish to see older content to be as difficult and rewarding as the new one. If developers keep the difficulty, place rewards and create AD sinks, all of the complains you guys will be just meaningless. Also i strongly disagree that lvl 70 should be easier than lvl 80, just because u wont hit the stat caps on certain stats at lvl 70, doesnt mesm the critters will be ss strong as thosr at lvl 80, this is someth that Thomas Foss mentioned in his post. Anyway just take your time to learn m16, because by what i ve seen so far its way better than m15, and its promising much more. I am happy with everythin including combat.

    @barbie its not that what you typed here is wrong - its a simple explanation why changes needed to be made. Thing is a tools devs used to implement so long expected changes are...not perfect. In fact those are game killers. Because even if those work out - it needs a time, a lot of time, and lets be honest complete player base exchange. If they can afford to keep that game alive fot that long then I understand that - I wont be here but I do understand - but if not it can end up with financial disaster - you see even if a cure is chosen correctly I doubt that patient (players) are ready to pay for it. I hope I am wrong, I really do....
  • joccat#1817 joccat Member Posts: 117 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    We obviously do not have Mod 16 on console yet but why do I get the feeling this is a battle between the have and the have-nots?

    The 'haves' have time, skill and/or money to spend in game...they like things the way they are, pre-mod 16. You get rewarded for spending your time playing, or spending your money to get better...

    The 'have-nots' have neither of those things and they want scaling, controls placed on characters, etc. so it's a level playing field (in thier mind)...
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,086 Arc User
    P2W what, exactly?
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 663 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    - deleted, doesn't matter -
    - bye bye -
  • chiatzouchiatzou Member Posts: 47 Arc User
    Im guessing with the release of these 4 weapon sets and also the announcement of a new trial in the next mod. Do you think we are just going to be doing just like the Chult again? Run the trial to exalt your weapons have a nice day? Surely we have something in the works more creative than that...
  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Member Posts: 1,654 Arc User

    @gripnir78 i agree with what you said, even if these changes are good to the game, players dont like them, theres alot of reason why they do not like them, some of these reasons were players complaining that their p2w items mean nothin in lvl 70, well im endgame and i really do not mind, others complain that they do not want difficult content, they prefer not to struggle and many other complaints in this range, but how about we accept them changes.



    You are a lvl 80 toon, and u are free to hit the stat caps, but content is hard.

    You are a lvl 80 toon, and in lvl 70 content some of your stats wont hit the cap.

    Both cases are affected by different values of the critters counter stats, so i wont crit as often as i do in lvl 80, or maybe i will crit the same but my armor pen is less effective, in the end they are just stats, even if you hit the stats caps or not, you still inflict damage. Now if people will get past it and focus on more important things such as keeping the content difficult, asking for proper rewards, and placing AD sinks in the campaign stores, these are bigger goals than most of the complaints in here. I didnt lost track of the prize, but many in here did.

    Plus alot of benefits of lvl 70 and lvl 80 will make some classes feel more usefull when they dont hit the stat caps and others when they hit the stats caps. It's brilliant imo. While its not a liniar class balance, but its still better. I know for sure how some classes used to perform in mod 9, when they did had 1 stat missing such as recovery or lifesteal.. anyway therr are too many claims done by :lul community :lul which i onviously disagree with. Its not the choice of majority to take decisions over the game, its rather the small sheer of players doing so.. and i ve seen content creators exploiting this subject for gaining views, its reality alot of ppl followin their own interest. And mod 16 is really good with the additions. I appreicate the pressure placed on the forum or social, for developers to fix these things, but i dont like when community is discouraging devs to finish their job, or claiming that these changes suck. Because they do not suck.

    You make a lot of valid points even if some points aren't factual but just your preference.

    Every one of your "end goals" is a wish list though and you're asking the angered majority to put aside their complaints and think about future potential.

    Proper rewards? The promised land the devs have used in the past and never follow through on.

    AD sinks? Yeah, been waiting for years and the m16 changes shouldn't have had any bearing on that to begin with.

    More difficult content? Yeah, there's some need for some challenge which, imo, should be level appropriate. This version of scaling is a mess. I've long been a fan of content (dungeons/raid really because who cares about dailes/weeklies) having multiple difficulties. I thought K team was a sign the dev's were working on making that happen.

    I think the underlying issue here is that you want to have faith in this dev team and most people don't anymore. You argue that the anti-M16 crowd repeats the same issues "scaling sucks scaling this scaling that no progression blah blah".

    But all you do is rehash the same pro-M16 arguments. "Better rewards, more challenge, no more brain dead, ad sinks, etc etc".

    Most of your arguments aren't a reality since they haven't happened. Will they? Maybe, maybe not. It's easy to argue they haven't made the changes for years so why trust them to do it now.

    You have no idea so your only factual argument is that the game isn't for brain dead players anymore. Shockingly, calling them brain dead isn't winning you any arguments.

    There's some stuff that definitely needs fixing. I don't think anyone can argue that. And scaling isn't going away so majority needs to get over that already. The implementation sucked but they're tweaking it and that's probably the best you're going to get.

    At the end of the day this is more about how the devs shot themselves in the foot by releasing the game in the state they did. You can't let people walk through everything for 3 years than all of a sudden flip a switch and say "nah let's do it this way instead" without changing the whole structure of the game.

    Had better rewards been included in this rework players would probably complain less about the changes.
  • sbblolsbblol Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    Some of the changes in MOD 16 are good and I like them, the class changes are good
    In general, even I invested money and lost it because MOD 16, it ok
    I buy ZEN because I relay Appreciate the investment in the game, and it free
    I play 4 year on free mode, When I decided to buy ZEN I did it because of the feeling of donating rather than buying a game
    Me and my children play the game and we spend fun time for free for long time
    the application of the scaling system done badly, and it impact the total experience
    I hope that you will fix it fast, because I love this game and I would not want people to abandon the game, please fix and improve the scaling
  • bpstuartbpstuart Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    Not sure how viable this is programming wise but for those that like a challenge an option could be added that scales a player down when they choose to be. I am thinking like a challenge mode akin to the runes but it alters stats. The more difficult you make it, the higher the rewards. They can be presented personally like the rewards for heroic encounters are. Extra AD, an enchanted key, companion upgrade tokens etc. For guiding lower level players into dungeons It could be a special currency like "scrolls of oghma" since you are imparting knowledge. Those could be exchanged for goodies like high level gear or upgrade kits.

    it would encourage positive behaviors and co-operation. It could give high level players choose to have the challenge they crave while still leaving the those players who want to feel powerful and that all their hard work has paid off.

    Think of it like a toggle that lets people experience the challenge of a dark soul no clothes run but with few adventurers running around Faerun in their skivvies.
    Ego etiam cupo recrari et amari diu post mortem meam
    I too wish to be recreated, and to be loved long after my death.
  • chiatzouchiatzou Member Posts: 47 Arc User
    @bpstuart I agree. A failed example of implementation. Hardcore mode. Doing something that is harder just for the sake of doing it. Not many at all do it. It would be like saying well you know I could this perfectly truck to haul some stuff away to the dump. Instead though I ll carry it all by hand. The reward is the same, the trash is in the dump. Why would something that we do to enjoy not in anyway mirror what people do in real life. When people put in more effort for something they expect to be rewarded for doing so. Putting extra hours in at work, all those things run along the same mindset.
  • bpstuartbpstuart Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    I have gotten a little off track. I keep talking scaling when the next Q&A is about "powers, classes, feats, stats,"

    ok,
    Powers:
    1. Why was power choice on level up removed in favor of fixed powers upon level up? This choice seems antithetical to the spirit of Dungeons and Dragons.
    2. Was it to lighten the coding/ maintenance load?
    3. Was it part of the 'eliminating wrong choices' Doctrine?
    4. Why was this done instead of a "suggested build" setting or a green box that says "suggested power"

    Classes:
    1. in a game where the leveling and story content is all meant to be done solo, why were the classes re-balanced so harshly in favor of group roles when that is not even half of the available content?
    2. Why do some classes have 2 roles that do the same thing when others have 2 options? When it comes to wizard i am told that Thaumaturge is meant to AoE DPS and Arcanist is Single Target DPS but this is not clearly stated and some of the powers do not fit that mold, What is the true distinction among them?
    3. When Re-balancing classes in the future, would it be possible to get the intent of the re-balancing spelled out before hand in clear terms so we are not caught flat footed? Like a roadmap or intended goal?

    Feats:
    1. What is the reasoning behind paring down the feat system to such a minimal degree?
    2. Is this feat line up permanent or can we expect to see improved or updated choices?
    3. Should these limited choices prove unpopular enough might we see a rework to reintroduce the complexity that made older systems more flexible?

    Miscellaneous questions:
    1. Is any of this the resault of testing out ideas related to the MTG game on existing players? ( i have heard speculation and thought i would give you a chance to respond.)
    2. With such drastic and often unnearving changes, what assurances can you give the players that are now hesitant to invest money/zen for fear of their purchases being devalued as was the Case with the Chultan tiger companion?
    3. What in future will happen to improve communication between players and Developers when it comes to feedback? Will we be able to get responses to concerns?
    Ego etiam cupo recrari et amari diu post mortem meam
    I too wish to be recreated, and to be loved long after my death.
  • rev#7881 rev Member Posts: 343 Arc User
    edited May 2019
    dolrey said:

    dolrey said:

    I agree that experienced players with top equipment should be stronger after scaling than beginers because they invested a lot of their time and probably moneys into all that. And.. Exactly this thing was said by lead designer at last Q&A stream. So I don't see reason for worries here because cryptics know about this point and probably they just need some time to tune it up.

    They had months before launch.
    We are almost 1 month after launch.
    They don't need time. They need to understand why it's bad.
    Well.. In other mmos "modules" releases once per year. While in nwo we have new mod about every 3 months. If cryptics would have 1 year for working on m16 then of course we would not see a lot of bugs and not tuned machanics etc.

    I don't like broken things too but if I have chance to play new content much earlier and if these bugs are not critycal then I think it's ok. I am not involved into development process of course so this is only my opinion but looks like we have to keep in mind that 1-2 months after release is something like "open beta test".

    A lot of us are gamers who play not only this game. And all previously said looks realistic if keep in mind experience of other games. This is how development process works. You can be angry you can blame developers (like I did it in past too). But just realise all these things and think about month after launch like about open beta. And then.. it will not be that catastrofic to you.


    - Fun and all if they hadn't said they worked on the mod for over 1 year but yeah sure keep at it bud....

    --------------

    Main point is it has been kinda almost 4 months of people complaining and reporting about scalling and bugs but all that stuff still went live, '' oh we didn't know'' or ''oh we weren't aware'' are you f****** serious? how about you read the f****** forums...

    When the majority of a community that NEVER EVER EVER EVER in the history of the game agreed on something starts agreeing on this, you know you HAMSTER up in a way i can't even fathom...

    ---------------

    Now the game is just BORING ... and yes i still feel like a god on old areas, i can pretty much one shot everything even on HE's
    Most feats are still garbage ( why the hell do i want a feat that belongs to a encounter i will never use?)
    Still mad about the fact i lost at least half of my encounters/at-wills/etc...
    Some at-wills are so cluncky
    Divinity gain is still bad... (in/out of combat)
    Lmao at weapon/armor enchants

    Yes they are giving us more patches but everytime they try to fix a bug they create 3 new ones ...
    Certain dungeons are still bugged even after 2 years sooo yeah


    Sad days boys
    Post edited by rev#7881 on
  • mikewho#5331 mikewho Member Posts: 242 Arc User
    So Is the June 11th console release date still valid?
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    @mikewho as far as we know yes.


  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    if we actually know what you're trying to do and WHY... once more with feeling... we can help!

    What:

    My guess from what they are doing, is breaking the former linear progress. It was Sharandar to dread ring, and so on.
    Their aim is to constantly have the last two mods as the viable progress path, for new players too.

    A new player progress up to 80, gets the most up to date catchup gear and plays the last two mods. The rest of the content is only boon points and a side filler.

    Why:

    The above consolidates both the player base and the dev efforts. They are doing a mod, so they need to set up a catchup gear (or use the previous one) and with the new counter stats they set everyone almost at the same spot in terms of stats and effectiveness. Some boons here and there or enchants here and there will still keep the players in some range.
    This means it's less work for them, they upfront gave up on old content, so it doesn't need to be updated, It is constantly just moved to 'challenge campaigns'.

    And it consolidates the player base, the whole fiasco started long ago, with not enough players to fill the leveling dungeons, so RQ was added, but that lead to geared players + leveling players not meshing together, that led to the beginning of scaling and so on..

    When all the player base is more or less the same stats, same effectiveness, same meaningless feats and all playing only the 2 dungeons you both create perception of much more people (people not spread all over) and again the focus on balancing and rewards is limited.

    Practically limiting the scope of the game in terms of content. This is probably considered a lower maintenance long term viable plan. Add a mod, move one campaign to obsolete. People play it for the month+ it is time gated, buy whatever there is to buy, numbers go down, until next mod, and repeat. Turning the game from long term progress MMO, to more like DLC packs. Just instead of buying the DLC and playing for a month, you get DLC for free, and they try to convince you to buy something on the way, not sure what though.

    How:

    As Iv'e mentioned, catch-up gear, removing content to 'challange' closet, capping it so it will never bother anyone again.

    Help that?

    I'm not sure I want to. In practice that model nullifies anything I got in the last years. and will more or less continue to do so each mod, when the stats from gear and counter stats will grow (and the catch-up gear) , while everything we've earned so far like enchants, mounts etc.. will diminish in comparison.
    This is moving from traditional concepts of MMO into sort of arcade / action RPG, but without the benefits of either. Some may like it, login after 3 months, grab the catchup, follow the campaign and new stuff for a month, and repeat, a 4 month cycle. It looks more aimed at either very casual players or players who play other things, and just hop in into NW when bored from the other stuff.
    I don't know Cryptic numbers, but lets hope for them that is the paying audience as well. This model doesn't seem friendly to the more invested players.

    Anyway, even having said that, help we tried, from concepts to exact things, here a recent example (The thread in general and my last post specifically):
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/13102810

    Will it help, probably no one will read it anyway. But in any case, the entire model, and the idea, doesn't exactly fit the consensus and what we signed up for as an MMO game.
    OK, I'm not sure any of that is right since Scaling was this way long before they introduced the part about the last two mods being unscaled, (that was a new element introduced following the Q&A) so that clearly wasn't an initial goal and seems more like a concession. Plus, I don't think they'd be embarrassed about explaining that as the reason, and would have done so by now.

    Likewise, that thread offers some very interesting graphics and theories, but not what I would call anything that explains WHY and/or the specific goals of having such severe scaling. Imagine how much use that information would be if we knew what the were trying to achieve... putting data into context makes it much more useful.

    I don't mean to be rude, but frankly I'd really really like an answer to my question that doesn't begin with something like, "my guess" "my assumption" "my theory" and preferably from someone who actually knows why old content HAS to be so much harder than new content, and WHY high level players are scaled to cap at such a low score.

    There has to be a real, genuine, game based reason that they are so reluctant to apply the the same omission to all <L80 content. Particularly when the stats provide ratings that are already capped on the character itself. (e.g. 50% on Crit...)

    Maybe it's because the code has trouble with figuring opposing roll ratings when the disparity between stats becomes too high and in that sense they NEED to cap us. But if so why is the cap so much lower than it needs to be? Maybe if it that were the case, someone might be able to offer a simple solution that everyone else missed...


    I don't know... none of use do, because we haven't been told, and we all seem happy to base our concerns on assumptions.

    I have a sneaking suspicion that being scaled below cap in old content is the only way they can guarantee that players will face opponents and not be at cap, and therefore face a genuine challenge (hence the Challenge Campaigns to drive us INTO those scaled down zones). They wouldn't dare force a second cap below the official cap on new content... that would drive players out the door faster than Ussein Bolt on PCP. But since capping ratings under the new system won't be that hard, they need to make sure that those caps don't apply 100% of the time, because... why bother having stats and ratings at all if everyone just hits them as soon as the new mod comes out. It would be like a couple of weeks till the new gear/ whatever is attained. and the caps are maintained.

    Of course, I can't use that as a basis for offering any suggestions as it's just a theory and probably just as incorrect as anyone else's. Because we just don't know...
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