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A deeper look into scaling & suggestions
elwing
Member Posts: 29 Arc User
So as we all know, Mod16 brought us two new concepts: “counter stats” and “scaling”. I tried to get a deeper insight into both concepts at the current state of the game. I decided to note my stats for all (epic) dungeons, skirmishes and available epic trials for several characters with different item level, stats and player level.
I compared the following characters:
You find a summary of my stats in this spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ynPsCICOVIuDVqnCFJKr0tdc7iOzjLMdyeAZHC6xfPE/edit?usp=sharing
I've calculated the %stats out of player and enemy stats and the expected value of a hit with 100 Magnitude and 100% CA uptime based on the formulas on Janne's homepage (https://jannenw.info/pages/mechanics16/formulas) (At this moment, the calculations aren't in the spreadsheet because I just copied my OpenOffice data – I consider to fix that at some point). I didn't take into account gear % damage, boons, weapon enchantments etc. because that is not the point here. I hope I didn't make any major mistakes in my calculations – if so feel free to correct me.
The suggestions I will derive out of the data are the following:
1) The scaling for MSP isn't right at the moment.
2) Skirmishes aren't scaled in a meaningful way. The scaling needs to be adapted.
3) Looking a the implications of the current scaling, a re-structure of the random queues is necessary.
4) Scaling of weapon damage has a massive impact on the overall damage.
5) Scaling brings players closer together – closer than it should be.
To be able to compare the outcome in the different places with different characters I plotted some data I found interesting. I try to discuss this urgent issues based on the implications of the graphs.
1) When you look at the damage modifier, you see a clear structure for the intermediate dungeons (MC to FBI) – they all have the same damage modifier. As you can see in the graph, there is a problem with MSP, it has (for no obvious reason) a lower damage modifier than the other dungeons. Because MSP is logically a part of the other named dungeons, its scaling need to be fixed.
Edit: I forgot to clairfy what is meant with "damage modifier". It is everything stat-wise combined what will buff your damage.
Simply put: damage = weaponDamage * MagnitudeModfier * damageModifier.
2) No if we look at the skirmishes (MotH to MBH). There is no clear structure visible. Of course Master of the Hunt has a way lower enemy rating (6125) the other have a rating of 7000. So you would expect that they are in some way similar. But they are not. Even worse, for this content it is possible that a lower level / item level character has a higher damage modifier. That isn't right.
3) Now for the “higher” content (Tomb, Cradle and CR). They have obviously a minor harsh scaling close to no scaling at all. So if you take a look at the overall picture, based on the scaling the following re-structure of random queues is meaningful (at least for me). Move Tomb, CR and Cradle into the expert queue.
4) Now let's talk about the weapon damage. I can understand you feel the urge to scale the weapon damage too. But if you look in the effects of that scaling, you can see that powerful weapons are reduced massively what has a direct influence to the overall damage additionally to the scaling of the stats. In the QA stream was mention, that “double scaling” was a mistake. But with scaled weapon damage you provoke a double scaling again. With scaled weapon damage the content is harder than before the patch (with the lower scaling). Please consider to either not scale weapon damage (because your damage modifier is already scaled) or at leas scale them less harsh so that it is meaningful to have better weapons.
5) My 5th point is that you scaling brings players closer together that it should. I see positive sides on the idea that players, that play together at different progression points in the game shouldn't be too far apart from each other. Like Ligula is doing trice the damage than Maxwell. But where is the benefit in investing into my character if it is only slightly better (or even worse) than a lower geared character? In scaled content Maxwell, a character I put now effort in, with random enchantments, is doing 2/3 of Ligula's damage. The closer together damage is an outcome of harshly capped weapon damage, and harshly scaled other stats (for example Power and Armor Penetration).
I hope my calculations help the community to get a deeper insight into scaling at the current state of mod 16. Additionally I hope that my descriptions help the developer team to fix some obviously non-fitting scaling.
Edit 2: I've added some colors...
I compared the following characters:
- Ligula, a lvl 80 Rogue with around 22k Item level. She is my main and I'm working on having good/balanced stats for end-game content. Still overcaped at most stats except CA but hey, working on it... She has orange Alabaster weapons.
- Maxwell, a lvl 70 Warlock with about 14k Item Level. He is just some alt I've done some campaigns. I gave him spare enchantments, mostly brutals, so he reach 14k Item Level to test stuff. There is now “big plan” behind his stats. He has purple Wootz weapons.
- Maxwell, same lvl 70 Warlock, but with no enchantments and around 11k. Item level. Still purple Wootz weapons.
You find a summary of my stats in this spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ynPsCICOVIuDVqnCFJKr0tdc7iOzjLMdyeAZHC6xfPE/edit?usp=sharing
I've calculated the %stats out of player and enemy stats and the expected value of a hit with 100 Magnitude and 100% CA uptime based on the formulas on Janne's homepage (https://jannenw.info/pages/mechanics16/formulas) (At this moment, the calculations aren't in the spreadsheet because I just copied my OpenOffice data – I consider to fix that at some point). I didn't take into account gear % damage, boons, weapon enchantments etc. because that is not the point here. I hope I didn't make any major mistakes in my calculations – if so feel free to correct me.
The suggestions I will derive out of the data are the following:
1) The scaling for MSP isn't right at the moment.
2) Skirmishes aren't scaled in a meaningful way. The scaling needs to be adapted.
3) Looking a the implications of the current scaling, a re-structure of the random queues is necessary.
4) Scaling of weapon damage has a massive impact on the overall damage.
5) Scaling brings players closer together – closer than it should be.
To be able to compare the outcome in the different places with different characters I plotted some data I found interesting. I try to discuss this urgent issues based on the implications of the graphs.
1) When you look at the damage modifier, you see a clear structure for the intermediate dungeons (MC to FBI) – they all have the same damage modifier. As you can see in the graph, there is a problem with MSP, it has (for no obvious reason) a lower damage modifier than the other dungeons. Because MSP is logically a part of the other named dungeons, its scaling need to be fixed.
Edit: I forgot to clairfy what is meant with "damage modifier". It is everything stat-wise combined what will buff your damage.
Simply put: damage = weaponDamage * MagnitudeModfier * damageModifier.
2) No if we look at the skirmishes (MotH to MBH). There is no clear structure visible. Of course Master of the Hunt has a way lower enemy rating (6125) the other have a rating of 7000. So you would expect that they are in some way similar. But they are not. Even worse, for this content it is possible that a lower level / item level character has a higher damage modifier. That isn't right.
3) Now for the “higher” content (Tomb, Cradle and CR). They have obviously a minor harsh scaling close to no scaling at all. So if you take a look at the overall picture, based on the scaling the following re-structure of random queues is meaningful (at least for me). Move Tomb, CR and Cradle into the expert queue.
4) Now let's talk about the weapon damage. I can understand you feel the urge to scale the weapon damage too. But if you look in the effects of that scaling, you can see that powerful weapons are reduced massively what has a direct influence to the overall damage additionally to the scaling of the stats. In the QA stream was mention, that “double scaling” was a mistake. But with scaled weapon damage you provoke a double scaling again. With scaled weapon damage the content is harder than before the patch (with the lower scaling). Please consider to either not scale weapon damage (because your damage modifier is already scaled) or at leas scale them less harsh so that it is meaningful to have better weapons.
5) My 5th point is that you scaling brings players closer together that it should. I see positive sides on the idea that players, that play together at different progression points in the game shouldn't be too far apart from each other. Like Ligula is doing trice the damage than Maxwell. But where is the benefit in investing into my character if it is only slightly better (or even worse) than a lower geared character? In scaled content Maxwell, a character I put now effort in, with random enchantments, is doing 2/3 of Ligula's damage. The closer together damage is an outcome of harshly capped weapon damage, and harshly scaled other stats (for example Power and Armor Penetration).
I hope my calculations help the community to get a deeper insight into scaling at the current state of mod 16. Additionally I hope that my descriptions help the developer team to fix some obviously non-fitting scaling.
Edit 2: I've added some colors...
Ligula Trickfoot
Post edited by elwing#6559 on
23
Comments
The current implementation of scaling forces players to choose between carrying 2 sets of gear or running painfully suboptimal setups in scaled content.
Edit: Is the damage modifier assuming full effectiveness of Armor Penetration and non-deflected hits?
If yes, then that further explains why scaled dps feels less effective, since this graph isn't capturing the impact of not fully mitigating defense or deflection. Not sure on this point though.
Edit2: The above graph already takes into account counterstats.
(1 + power/100000) * resistanceIgnored * [1 + critChance * CritSev + CAUptime * CASev] * (1 - targetDeflectChance * 0.5)
"resistance" and "targetDeflectCance" take into account what Armor Penetration and what Accuracy you have. If you are interested, take a look at Janne's page how the several parts are calculated - it's explained well there.
The implication is then that the higher gear character could improve damage output in scaled content by reallocating stats back to ArPen and Accuracy. Which brings us back to the idea that it's optimal to have a separate set of gear for scaled content.
Original Serenity Mostly Retired DC
Tokarek Bearded Dwarven OP Tankadin
JuiceHead Goofy Human GWF
Member of H3llzWarriors and Limitless.
There are simple and working ways to do non caped, non linear scaling.
Some key aspects we want from the system:
1. To maintain the linear relationship between the stats, if you have twice power than ArP we want to keep that ratio.
This will maintain correctness vs the counter stats without players reallocating stats
2. We want scaling to be 'proportionally' correct, if Player A has more power before scaling over player B (pA > pB), then F(pA) > F(pB) where F is the result of the scaling. Or in short, a BiS level 80 player will not find themselves weaker than a new level 70. And progress preserved.
3. Adjustable non linear function, something easy to replace or to tune if needed.
4. Non-linear so power creep will not be an issue for the foreseeable future.
5. Adjustable per zone, the 'scaling bar' should be set per zone
So our overall system will work based on total IL, it will take a zone scaling 'border' for example 14k for some zone, bellow that number no scaling will occur, the scaling multiplier is 1.
Here two examples, one more simple to understand, the other more elegant:
If the player total IL is above that number we do the following:
ScaledIL = ScalingBarrier + ScalingFunction(PlayerIL - ScalingBarrier)
divider = PlayerIL / ScaledIL
Where the scaling function is a non linear function derivative between 0 and 1. For example it can be x^(1/a) for a > 1, it can be
even an asymptotic function which will create an eventual cap.
In this example we will pick x^0.8
So our 22k player, just became 15325
with a divider of 1.435
We divide each stat by our divider and we are done.
Second similar example will be:
Scaling Divider = ScalingFunction((PlayerIL / ScalingBarrier ))
Here again we pick the same function, and for 0.8 the methods will almost align for these numbers so
Divider is 1.435
22k player becomes 15325k and we do the same per stat and divide each by the divider.
(For other values, for example 0.9 the results will differ in those methods)
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/xb3kw98h4e
This general idea, perhaps not perfect, but meets the above requirement, and with a diminishing enough function will last for a long time before adjustment is needed.
More so, there are hard caps on most stats anyway, so the scaling by caps is just not needed. And in any case, adjustment is easy, just change the 0.8 to 0.81 (for example) and viola or change the target barrier, and it's done.
I also think that the coders can't modify some things without breaking the engine. That's why there is more focus on individual instances and creatures. They can't change anything on player end (other than order of which system scales first or turning off monster-spawns-at- player- level completely).
People have been complaining about it making the players weak. But the devs concentrate on the monsters.
First of all its weapon damage dependant - so you can adjust pure stats but that element alone makes huge difference - not just its not linear but rng based but also it doeas change a lot - pretty much with every mod- just look at difference with older weapon sets and new from ME - same stats - different main hand - huge difference, and on top of that you still have some bonuses/buffs fro gear (Kuno of the bear) - so in short system you offer wont work.
Weapon damage is not random, it's a stat. The weapon damage minimum and maximum.
The jump from old weapon damage to new around ~4k weapon damage was a m16 change to normalize the classes, but otherwise there should be a linear 'connection' between weapon IL and the weapon damage. If needed, the divider can be adjusted for weapon damage specifically without much issue - mostly by using the weapon IL as the 'pivot'.
My main points with the scaling (before the big patch) were the following: If you compare, for example, the Damage Modifier and the Expected Value of a Hit, point 1) and 2) definitely improved!
Comparison of the Damage Modifier:
Comparison of the Expected Value of a Hit:
MSP is in line with the other dungeons, even has a less harsh scaling.
Also the Skirmishes are scaled the same way. There is a meaningful relation between the item level you are scaled to and the stats.
For point 3) I can see a reason now to pot CR in the Advanced Queue, not Expert. Still I don't think this is a good choice with regard to player experience, but it's not totally unreasonable.
4)Players are still quite close together, even with much different Item Level (and sense in choice of enchantments...). But the ridiculous situation in skirmishes is solved, so overall it's quite ok.
To summarize, scaling is in a much better state now. Of course there is still room to optimize, but I appreciate your approaches and I hope my data collection helped to improve the scaling.