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Official M16: Paladin Feedback

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  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,194 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    emilemo said:

    What is this bs Im reading about further damage reduction? Is it only Paladins or every class? Are these scare tactics @asterdahl ? Applied by you guys so that later we accept the less nerfed/but still nerfed/ versions of our classes which actually go live?

    We absolutely do not make any changes with the intention of scaring players or warping expectations. In reality, we put very little effort into managing expectations on preview, simply because we are so busy with actual development.

    I am not certain what damage reduction there was concern about, but I do believe there were some issues with scaling during the second to last patch so please let me know if you're still experiencing the described issues. There certainly weren't any reductions to Paladin damage, especially not any hidden changes. I have been working with our production team to make sure that any changes to things like damage values are painstakingly described in our patch notes.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,194 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer



    We are still missing 2 points in DnD stats.


    The simplest solution is to give us +2 to Int. At least then our combat stat starts at 14.

    The better solution is a significant readjustment of the stats

    2 possible arrays:
    Str 8
    Dex 8
    Wis 14
    Con 14
    Int 14
    Cha 16

    or

    Str 8
    Dex 8
    Wis 14
    Con 12
    Int 16
    Cha 16

    Unless Con gets changed to stop working only on base HP and starts giving a meaningful number of HP again.

    I've sent this along to the designer who is handling attributes, and we will look into making adjustments ASAP, it is not intended that Paladin is specifically penalized at the core attribute level, and I apologize for the issue.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,194 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    Divine Champion is appearing 2x in the Combat Log for each enemy attack, but only one seems to be doing anything.

    eg
    [Combat (Self)] Your Divine Champion absorbs 0 damage from Deathlock Wight's Gravebolt.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Divine Champion absorbs 12192 damage from Deathlock Wight's Gravebolt.
    [Combat (Self)] Deathlock Wight deals 12192 (48768) Necrotic Damage to you with Gravebolt.

    Thank you for the report, I apologize for this bug—in reality the first line is not supposed to be there—the way our 360 degree shields work, there are technically 0 hit point shields that persist under the hood and only block in a specific arc so that the damage impact visual effects play at the correct angle.

    In short: there's no bug in terms of the damage you're taking, but that extra line in the log is a bug. We are aiming to fix it, but it's lower on the priority list so it may not be for a little bit.
  • skaarl75skaarl75 Posts: 19Member Arc User
    This is gonna be a disaster.
  • skaarl75skaarl75 Posts: 19Member Arc User
    Ok,

    So we are a plate wearing, shield bearing tank class and our primary stats are:

    Int and Cha correct?

    64k defense needed at 80
    Does anyone remember the awareness, crit red, etc numbers for justicar?
  • tryingfeedback#2848 tryingfeedback Posts: 168Member Arc User
    skaarl75 said:

    This is gonna be a disaster.

    it already was a disaster on the Test Server caused alot of good people to leave and now today they plan to release this heap pile that isnt even completed and isnt worth most peoples time due to the model they chose which clearly people told them it wasnt fun anymore but they didnt listen how sad.....
  • kacsaneverkacsanever Posts: 167Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    Arcturia was a nightmare with Paladin. The main issues were:
    * mob uses power (Festering Swarm) disables the toon
    * this power is cast too offen, lasts quite long
    * mob regularly jumps back into one of these, makes it impossible to use most of the powers
    * mob power Life Drain heals back the mob even if it is blocked, w/o divinity it is impossible to outdamage it
    * it is a 2-3 phase encounter, no time between phases to regain divinity for last phase
    * divinity gain is low for these long encounter
    I almost gave it up, but found a Feat/boon/power setup i could do it at the end. but it was really a specific setup, I would never use in long term.

    When you describe Arcturia regaining hit points from life drain being too much to outdamage without divinity, were you soloing Arcturia? Your group should have had no trouble overcoming the damage of life drain. Arcturia is not really meant to be solo'd.

    You may have to approach divinity gain a bit differently with a boss fight than you would with a group of enemies, and consider changing out your abilities. I've tanked Arcturia with Vanguard, Justicar, and Sentinel quite a few times, and haven't found Justicar to be notably better or worse.


    EDIT:

    Arcturia was a nightmare with Paladin. The main issues were:
    * mob uses power (Festering Swarm) disables the toon
    * this power is cast too offen, lasts quite long
    * mob regularly jumps back into one of these, makes it impossible to use most of the powers
    * mob power Life Drain heals back the mob even if it is blocked, w/o divinity it is impossible to outdamage it
    * it is a 2-3 phase encounter, no time between phases to regain divinity for last phase
    * divinity gain is low for these long encounter
    I almost gave it up, but found a Feat/boon/power setup i could do it at the end. but it was really a specific setup, I would never use in long term.

    That's basically what she does in LotMM as well, be prepared!
    Plus a couple of extra tricks, but those are her central attacks.
    Whoops! I thought the OP was talking about Lair of the Mad Mage. My mistake! We'll definitely be keeping an eye on how much trouble people are having with that fight, and we may make adjustments.
    Hi @asterdahl , yes I was thinking on Wyllowwood encounter. Thank you for looking into it.
    Thanks @obsidiancran3 for the quick reply to make it clear.
  • fns2005fns2005 Posts: 148Member Arc User
    > @welshdemon said:
    > so I hve not play preview a lot cos I like ot see what it is like when it is live but I read this section and I want to know if this person's post
    > Seems we still have a few Paladin exclusive bugs to take care of /like the ability score mentioned above/ but we also have some other important things to take care of before m16 launch.
    >
    >
    > @asterdahl I see you've been addressing some of the other classes and thats cool but what about content scaling? This is fundamental for m16 and absolutely must be balanced before going live. You cant have some measly Rotters in CN dealing 20 000 dmg each hit to tanks. You simply cant! That much damage from trash mobs reduces the Block to nothing in seconds and makes short work of even 350-400 hp. Pressure on tanks should come from stronger mobs not some minion trash with unchecked damage.
    >
    > And its not just CN, how about Lair of Lostmauth - [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Green Dragonfang deals 160358 (230991) Poison Damage to you with Aimed Shot.
    >
    > That is one hit from one Green Dragonfang. My health in LoL is scaled to ~ 350 000. So 2 or 3 hits from those trash mobs before even the first boss can potentially take my tank out! And that particular tank is above 20k item level @lvl 75 on preview.
    >
    > The scaling issues and the abnormally high dmg from trash mobs is what can break m16 for you /more than even class balance/. If people cant even do the easier dungeons without wiping you gonna have an uproar.
    >
    > has been either sorted or there is another way to do it.i hve 2 loadouts and It seems I am going to hve one load out for lvl 70 contents and one for lvl 80 contents but this is going to be sssssoooooo expensive I think if it is has bad as this person says it is then I willno longe rbe able to play pally cos I dont have the funds to compete with other pallies that r able to buy gear and loadouts

    This should be a non issue. Requiring 2 loadouts/gear for level 70 versus level 80 content due to poor game design with scaling is ridiculous.
  • leonidrexleonidrex Posts: 394Member Arc User
    well, preview time went fast. as always, nothing really changed. thx for 2% crit aura i guess. Almost everything is broken, from copanions running around with milions of hp and dealing hundreds of K dmg, to enchants being unbalanced to hell and back, to scaling being broken as hell. but the worst of ALL, is that you made this game dull and boring, GG.
    Dunno about other classes but for paladin, I am skipping this mod, funny thing is that exchange will be gone when i return so im propably gonna quit all together :D .
    oh a side note, find the person who thought giving rank 13 negation 0,01% damage resistance was a good idea, and pat him on the back, tell him " hes good, maybe even the best at what he does".
  • larc#1138 larc Posts: 10Member Arc User
    Maybe this was all tuned for BIS OP with millions of AD and GH20 boons but as a newish toon in a small guild this current state is pathetic. 90% of my shield in one hit? I'd much rather take a dodge skill. No stupid suggestion that involves AD or months of grid should be necessary to fix a bad design.. PERIOD.
  • soarokisoaroki Posts: 19Member Arc User
    I dont understand people, many of them says about game but they dont have 80lvl. I dont have problem on dungeon, Fbi, esot, malabog, etc. (I have green gear 17k gs). Ofc are a few issues with mobs.(i wait politely) Totemist in Malabog 1 shot sometimes, for example. Fbi is easier than in mod 15... game is slower but is realy ok..



    But nevermind it is Paladin Feedback so..
    I have problem with 1 thing i play the second day..maybe 20/25h and i NEVER used bad TAB on OP. It is problem for me, bcs we lose one "skill". Game is slower but easier too, we dont need this shield. I never have divinity for TAB, only for skill. When i lose aggro i cant use skill with threat bonus(baaaad loop O.O). So how i can help my team? att-wills + feats sometimes cant help.:)

    * last boss on Esot / Malabog sometimes dances with my party, hmm, bug with threat?

    PS:
    HEALER IS BOOORING AND EASY !!! :<

    @asterdahl

  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Posts: 727Member Arc User
    edited April 25
    soaroki said:


    PS:
    HEALER IS BOOORING AND EASY !!! :<

    @asterdahl

    While healing can be a tad boring when things are going well, it doesn't always stay that way nor is it easy. If the tank fails to keep aggro and people start dying and are scattered all over the map, then its interesting and a tad comical.
    Post edited by majorcharvenak on
    ~Shia~

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
    Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator

    Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
    Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
    S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
    T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
    Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
  • soarokisoaroki Posts: 19Member Arc User
    edited April 25

    soaroki said:


    PS:
    HEALER IS BOOORING AND EASY !!! :<

    @asterdahl

    While healing can be a tad boring when things are going well, it doesn't always stay that way nor is it easy. If the tank fails to keep aggro and people start dying and are scattered all over the map, then its interesting and a tad comical.
    Hehe, maybe you're right. I dont like play with random people, maybe that's why game is easier. :)
    Solo player have always more problems, but it is mmorpg, this game is for "friendly"people, so solo player's opinion is less significant, sad true, sorry.
    bobo#5090 said:

    soaroki said:

    I dont understand people, many of them says about game but they dont have 80lvl. I dont have problem on dungeon, Fbi, esot, malabog, etc. (I have green gear 17k gs). Ofc are a few issues with mobs.(i wait politely) Totemist in Malabog 1 shot sometimes, for example. Fbi is easier than in mod 15... game is slower but is realy ok..



    But nevermind it is Paladin Feedback so..
    I have problem with 1 thing i play the second day..maybe 20/25h and i NEVER used bad TAB on OP. It is problem for me, bcs we lose one "skill". Game is slower but easier too, we dont need this shield. I never have divinity for TAB, only for skill. When i lose aggro i cant use skill with threat bonus(baaaad loop O.O). So how i can help my team? att-wills + feats sometimes cant help.:)

    * last boss on Esot / Malabog sometimes dances with my party, hmm, bug with threat?

    PS:
    HEALER IS BOOORING AND EASY !!! :<

    @asterdahl


    My pally on pc can't do fbi yet(IIRC), so I can't say if that's easy or not. Of what I have played the downscaling is totally phucked up, and needs to be removed. I can solo the new content, which was my biggest concern with this mod. However if I can't go back an play old content after I hit lvl 71+ then it's broken.
    Broken is 1 thing, every character have CAP for everything, and we dont know why we need rank 15, and items on companion, etc. I dont have items, and i have 90% stat with cap, on old dungeon all people have same rank enchantment,(same stat) like in communism everyone is equal! We can have 100k and more stat's but we dont need. It is mess for me. Percentage scaling would be better i think. Then it would make sense, and we would know why we need more stats..
    //
    I dont have problem with scaling existing, but why everyone hit CAP without being fully geared.
    Finally, the question arises, for what do we need these stats? On older dungeons we are scaled and equall to players with lower gear, on new content we just have stats more than we need.
    @asterdahl @terramak

    @asterdahl the players provided several options for fixing the missing stat points (not just my last post).



    How is it your staff member responsible thought putting 2 points in Dex was a good idea?



    Seriously they might as well have not given us the points.

    They had limited choice, only strenght and dexterity.. (8/8). Dexterity is better than strenght, because movement speed is very, very important! And dexterity is better than constitution too(check it!) all points constitution = 2/5k hp! WOOW :D It is % from basic hp, not from gear. ;)

    Regards, strange person. :disappointed:
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,772Member Arc User
    soaroki said:


    @asterdahl the players provided several options for fixing the missing stat points (not just my last post).



    How is it your staff member responsible thought putting 2 points in Dex was a good idea?



    Seriously they might as well have not given us the points.

    They had limited choice, only strenght and dexterity.. (8/8). Dexterity is better than strenght, because movement speed is very, very important! And dexterity is better than constitution too(check it!) all points constitution = 2/5k hp! WOOW :D It is % from basic hp, not from gear. ;)

    Regards, strange person. :disappointed:
    OK first, all the important stats boosts are 1/4 value of the stat as a %.

    So Con is AP gain, Int is Damage, Cha is recharge speed, Wis is healing and Str is Stamina gain, Dex is Crit Severity.

    Str, Con, Int, Wis, Cha actually matter for tanking and healing.

    The best outcome would have been +2 Int as it helps both paragons in solo content.

    But we got increased Crit Severity.

    Movement speed, you're funny.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User

    When I've looked at feats rouge and ranger, the feat were power independent. They add additional mechanics to all powers. So I could change powers while keeping the common gameplay structure.

    The paladin feats are completely different, at least on the tank path. Each feat busts one specific power instead of being applicable to all powers. This forces commitment to specific powers instead (which change due to balancing changes and which availability changes while leveling). Please make all paladin feats power-independent. And please do it for all other classes.

    I still have not chosen feats, because I do not want to commit to any power before I understand it.

    This is a pervasive problem with all of the tanking classes, even on their non-tanking specs.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,772Member Arc User
    @asterdahl

    This video shows several problems:

    1) You can see me taking damage without my shield up and loosing stamina.

    2) You can see that my stamina gets locked and just doesn't refill at all, it doesn't matter what powers I use.

    Both of these are critical problems for the Paladin. Having our critical tanking tool disable randomly during fights makes it even harder to actually tank this content.


    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • dominious12dominious12 Posts: 68Member Arc User
    I experienced 2 game-breaking bugs on Justicar paladin last night while attempting Castle Ravenloft.
    1) Blocking did not protect me from "Theft of Vitae" so every time the first boss used this skill it killed me.
    2) The first boss completely ignored threat and fixated on one party member constantly. Even with my threat indicator being red she ignored me until the other member was dead. This was with divine challenger feature set on smite, and using oath strike to attempt to keep some level of threat.
  • fns2005fns2005 Posts: 148Member Arc User
    > @dominious12 said:
    > I experienced 2 game-breaking bugs on Justicar paladin last night while attempting Castle Ravenloft.
    > 1) Blocking did not protect me from "Theft of Vitae" so every time the first boss used this skill it killed me.
    > 2) The first boss completely ignored threat and fixated on one party member constantly. Even with my threat indicator being red she ignored me until the other member was dead. This was with divine challenger feature set on smite, and using oath strike to attempt to keep some level of threat.

    Sidenote - can you use a scroll if you die while blocking, or did the sanctuary bug carry over?
  • leonidrexleonidrex Posts: 394Member Arc User
    edited April 28
    "fun" bug i found, none of my friends experienced it yet. When i animation cancel with my shield, my character is forever stuck "shielding without animation" i can use all my powers, BUT whenever i get hit i block, and my stamina never regenerates, makes game unplayable. fix.

    edit someone told me that BL feat from justicard does that, it started happening during me using BL feat and shielding strike, so its very likely.
    Post edited by leonidrex on
  • hared666#6453 hared666 Posts: 14Member Arc User
    edited April 29
    I'd delete my account before playing my 19k paladin as it is now. I'll play a different class until they change it. No one can tank, literally no one. There's no point to try. Best to just have 2 healers and 3 dps to get through any dungeon. This is horrible. Why does divinity take so long to rebuild when out of combat? Seriously, what person thought that was a good idea. None of the feats do anything. You can switch to any of them and the game play is the same. Some "coder" messed up really bad on paladin.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,772Member Arc User
    > @hared666#6453 said:
    > I'd delete my account before playing my 19k paladin as it is now. I'll play a different class until they change it. No one can tank, literally no one.

    Really?

    I have had plenty of success tanking.

    Sometimes I need to learn how to manage something under the new paradigm (eg VT), but I can, and do, tank just fine.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Posts: 727Member Arc User
    bobo#5090 said:

    Movement speed bonus for my pally also fluctuates from +14% to +4%, it flickers quite fast so is tough to see sometimes. Does not seem to affect actual movement speed, but it is annoying to have a stat constantly flickering for no known reason.

    Absolution on Justicar path does not seem to have a 20% reduction in damage taken like it says. At least not that I can see. I haven't tried to check the logs yet to get actual numbers.

    When backing up while blocking then lower shield toon turn back towards enemies. This should not happen, I should still be facing my foes when I drop my shield after I get down backing up, while blocking.

    Cooldowns are too long, divinty recharge is too long. divinity cost of smite, and the one healing spell the justy has is too high, especially since the at will are still rubbish.



    On a side note, I am still able to solo this campaign, unfortunately I ran out of stones of health and had to get a group to face arcturia.
    Arcturia battle seems too difficult as it is for a pally to solo. Especially with the divinity cost of smite, and the heal spell, and the recharge speed of divinity.

    My build is all gear that is found along the way, and r8 enchants, r9 runstones and 3 comps. One is epic, other 2 are green.

    Hey Bobo. I'm probably wrong but do you have smite slotted as well as divine touch? That seems like a lot of divinity in just one rotation. Which cooldown power are you using? Is it just absolution?
    ~Shia~

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
    Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator

    Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
    Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
    S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
    T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
    Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
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