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Official M16: Paladin Feedback

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  • emilemoemilemo Posts: 1,718Member Arc User
    Seems we still have a few Paladin exclusive bugs to take care of /like the ability score mentioned above/ but we also have some other important things to take care of before m16 launch.


    @asterdahl I see you've been addressing some of the other classes and thats cool but what about content scaling? This is fundamental for m16 and absolutely must be balanced before going live. You cant have some measly Rotters in CN dealing 20 000 dmg each hit to tanks. You simply cant! That much damage from trash mobs reduces the Block to nothing in seconds and makes short work of even 350-400 hp. Pressure on tanks should come from stronger mobs not some minion trash with unchecked damage.

    And its not just CN, how about Lair of Lostmauth - [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Green Dragonfang deals 160358 (230991) Poison Damage to you with Aimed Shot.

    That is one hit from one Green Dragonfang. My health in LoL is scaled to ~ 350 000. So 2 or 3 hits from those trash mobs before even the first boss can potentially take my tank out! And that particular tank is above 20k item level @lvl 75 on preview.

    The scaling issues and the abnormally high dmg from trash mobs is what can break m16 for you /more than even class balance/. If people cant even do the easier dungeons without wiping you gonna have an uproar.

    Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
    Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
  • anoreksjaanoreksja Posts: 76Member Arc User
    One question, will any potions be added to restore the divinity level? If I do not kill an (easy in mod 15) group of enemies and the divinity level ends, then continuation fight with At-Will lasts forever. I will only remind, that encounter powers that do not use divinity have a very long cooldown time. Basically, I do not know if it makes sense to write anything more here because the last few updates on the preview-server give us to understand that at the moment the Paladin class was completed. The current Paladin situation is, in short, both unacceptable and incredible.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,773Member Arc User
    edited April 21
    @emilemo do you remember what your defence is in CN?
    Is it over 50k?

    I agree with the concept of what you are saying, but I’m trying to understand your reference as well.

    My level 80 loadout has 70k Defence normal, 34k in RAQ, but my level RAQ loadout has 52k Defence in RAQ content. Setting up a RAQ loadout made a big difference.

    ———————
    @anoreksja I have Relentless Avenger and Burning Light with Smite. RA and BL are about 12s cooldown, that’s hardly a long time. You can do an encounter every 3-4 seconds...that doesn’t seem that long.

    Yes some of our options have long cool downs, and I think nothing should be longer than 20s as such powers are rarely going to be used more than 1 time in a normal fight in parties. But some are quite reasonable.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • kacsaneverkacsanever Posts: 167Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited April 21
    emilemo said:


    @asterdahl I see you've been addressing some of the other classes and thats cool but what about content scaling? This is fundamental for m16 and absolutely must be balanced before going live. You cant have some measly Rotters in CN dealing 20 000 dmg each hit to tanks. You simply cant! That much damage from trash mobs reduces the Block to nothing in seconds and makes short work of even 350-400 hp. Pressure on tanks should come from stronger mobs not some minion trash with unchecked damage.

    And its not just CN, how about Lair of Lostmauth - [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Green Dragonfang deals 160358 (230991) Poison Damage to you with Aimed Shot.

    That is one hit from one Green Dragonfang. My health in LoL is scaled to ~ 350 000. So 2 or 3 hits from those trash mobs before even the first boss can potentially take my tank out! And that particular tank is above 20k item level @lvl 75 on preview.

    The scaling issues and the abnormally high dmg from trash mobs is what can break m16 for you /more than even class balance/. If people cant even do the easier dungeons without wiping you gonna have an uproar.

    For the received(base) damage values this is similar what I have already calculated for lower level (AKA downscaled) mobs:
    Calculation used is:
    Effectiveness%/100 = (1- ((Defense-ArmorPenetration)/100/1000))
    According to the log above, effectiveness is ~64,4%
    You know your own defense stat, so you can calculate enemy ArPen (which shall be 50k lower then Defense/Deflect/Combat Advantage/and Crit stats according to https://arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1246309/official-m16-stats-and-mechanics/p1)
    I have a high bet it is way more then the expected 10k.
    A=D-(1000-E%*1000)

    You can also make a cross check by using your own effectiveness, as you can calculate the defense of the enemy knowing your own ArPen:
    D=A+(1000-E%*1000)

    By my calculation (already reported) defense of enemies in LvL70 area is 82k+. This means the other 50K lower stats are 32k+

    I think that is the problem.

    And don't forget, your own stats are also downscaled in the meantime.
  • ragnarz2ragnarz2 Posts: 208Member Arc User

    @emilemo do you remember what your defence is in CN?
    Is it over 50k?

    I agree with the concept of what you are saying, but I’m trying to understand your reference as well.

    My level 80 loadout has 70k Defence normal, 34k in RAQ, but my level RAQ loadout has 52k Defence in RAQ content. Setting up a RAQ loadout made a big difference.

    ———————
    @anoreksja I have Relentless Avenger and Burning Light with Smite. RA and BL are about 12s cooldown, that’s hardly a long time. You can do an encounter every 3-4 seconds...that doesn’t seem that long.

    Yes some of our options have long cool downs, and I think nothing should be longer than 20s as such powers are rarely going to be used more than 1 time in a normal fight in parties. But some are quite reasonable.

    Its great you found a work around by making a scaling specific loadout. I look at it and think f'that. Their scaling simulation is just a bad short cut that makes all content thru mod 15 unavailable once you hit lvl 71. No one will bother playing the content or at all for that matter.
  • kacsaneverkacsanever Posts: 167Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited April 21

    @emilemo do you remember what your defence is in CN?
    Is it over 50k?

    Could you please do the math I wrote in my answer to emilemo, please. You and your mate (sorry I cant remember the name, but was testing heal Pala along your side) made a ton of testing, my all thanks for tis. I just wanna know if you made it into account and tested if there was an S/W issue with the downscaling. Ty for advance.
  • leonidrexleonidrex Posts: 394Member Arc User
    ragnarz2 said:

    @emilemo do you remember what your defence is in CN?
    Is it over 50k?

    I agree with the concept of what you are saying, but I’m trying to understand your reference as well.

    My level 80 loadout has 70k Defence normal, 34k in RAQ, but my level RAQ loadout has 52k Defence in RAQ content. Setting up a RAQ loadout made a big difference.

    ———————
    @anoreksja I have Relentless Avenger and Burning Light with Smite. RA and BL are about 12s cooldown, that’s hardly a long time. You can do an encounter every 3-4 seconds...that doesn’t seem that long.

    Yes some of our options have long cool downs, and I think nothing should be longer than 20s as such powers are rarely going to be used more than 1 time in a normal fight in parties. But some are quite reasonable.

    Its great you found a work around by making a scaling specific loadout. I look at it and think f'that. Their scaling simulation is just a bad short cut that makes all content thru mod 15 unavailable once you hit lvl 71. No one will bother playing the content or at all for that matter.
    NO, ScAlInG iS iN a GoOd PlAcE /s
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,773Member Arc User
    edited April 22



    Could you please do the math I wrote in my answer to emilemo, please. You and your mate (sorry I cant remember the name, but was testing heal Pala along your side) made a ton of testing, my all thanks for tis. I just wanna know if you made it into account and tested if there was an S/W issue with the downscaling. Ty for advance.

    I don't log ACT on my Paladin, just use log to report bugs I find, none of which have really been related to how our class works.

    In this thread no one has been reporting bugs that make me feel the need to get ACT and check the corners carefully. My class powers. stats etc all seem to be working as intended (at least that I have run). And frankly spending hours crunching numbers isn't something I enjoy. I much prefer to play the game and see how it feels to play. And frankly I'm having plenty of success in 16.
    ragnarz2 said:

    Its great you found a work around by making a scaling specific loadout. I look at it and think f'that. Their scaling simulation is just a bad short cut that makes all content thru mod 15 unavailable once you hit lvl 71. No one will bother playing the content or at all for that matter.

    Look I don't like how they did scaling, I think it fundamentally ignores their own mechanics for stat effectiveness. But, you can either learn how to play with it and have a better time or keep suffering and having a poor time. Your choice.

    Having a Loadout for running RAQ (it will work for RIQ as well) is no different to having one for any other task. Its not exactly hard to get it set up, especially once you know that Artifacts, Equip Powers (gear, companions, mounts) and Boons are not affected by scaling. So these things change very little. Its really just Enchants and Gear Stats that are changed. So the "problem" is certainly not that hard to save.

    People have been asking, repeatedly, for Companions, Boons and Mounts to be more relevant, well look at that, they are more relevant.

    Your gear matters more in level 80 content, your other stuff has a larger impact in level 70 content.

    But sure, you can keep saying it all doesn't work...
    Post edited by obsidiancran3 on
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • emilemoemilemo Posts: 1,718Member Arc User
    edited April 22
    I share @ragnarz2 sentiment regarding the loadouts. That being said my Justi on preview is still not where I want him to be in regard to stat distribution. Crit and Arm Pen for example are both still too high since my Pallly in m15 is an offensive beast.

    Yet at lvl 80 my Justi sits at 71 000 defence. Once I get new rings, new underwear, change some artifacts around and play with insignia my Crit and Arm Pen will lose around 30 000 combined ratings, my Defence will gain at least 10k and the rest will proly go to Power since Im happy with Acc/Awareness/Crit avoidance and Combat Adv.

    Still why is 70 000 Defence at lvl80 being reduced to ~40k in LoL? Is that scaling wai? Are critters still doing too much dmg? And most of all @asterdahl please answer this:

    - Why is my lvl 80 character weaker scaled to 70 compared to when he was actually 70?

    Id really wanna know why scaled to 70 my Justi has lower health and lower stats compared to when he was 70. That is absurd and is proof enough for me to declare that scaling is off! All due respect @obsidiancran3 Im not gonna just lower my head, accept it and look for a work around. No, Im gonna demand a fix.
    Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
    Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,773Member Arc User
    @emilemo I think the scaling is bad, I have addressed it in the relevant threads multiple times.

    But in less than 24 hours it will be reality.

    So we need a practical solution, while we wait for this mess to explode in their faces and for them to actually listen and fix it.

    For that we need to know how it works.

    To the best of my ability to ascertain RAQ has all gear capped to the level of the Undermountain gear Neverember gives you. All enchants are capped at Rank 9.
    What is not capped is:
    Weapon Damage (the best proof the scaling is broken)
    Equip Powers (gear, companions, mounts)
    Artifacts
    Boons
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • ragnarz2ragnarz2 Posts: 208Member Arc User



    Look I don't like how they did scaling, I think it fundamentally ignores their own mechanics for stat effectiveness. But, you can either learn how to play with it and have a better time or keep suffering and having a poor time. Your choice.


    You did not think that through. The binary choice (since Cryptic loves binary choices) is suffer or quit. The fence sitters will just do unscaled content and wait and see what happens when the actual player base is exposed to this dumpster fire.
    bobo#5090 said:

    <

    This will be how they make their money, by forcing us to buy more load outs so we can actually be effective in old content again. It's almost too much for me to fumble HAMSTER around with 2 loadouts, now they want me to manage 4 or more? Thanks but no.

    And are they gonna give us anything for all that gear that has everfrost resist now that everfrost damage is going away?

    I don't think anyone but the obsessive are going to go down that road. Plenty of other bad game alternatives.


    So we need a practical solution, while we wait for this mess to explode in their faces and for them to actually listen and fix it.

    You might? I do not. My practical solution will be to not log on. It is the most practical message I can send.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,194 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    Greetings everyone. As I indicated in my previous post, I had to step away from the forums as we closed in on the final release candidate, there simply weren't enough calendar hours remaining to hit all the remaining feedback items and bugs while also posting regularly. However, Module 16 of course goes live tomorrow—so I now have some time to reply again.

    I apologize for returning to Paladin last after my hiatus to put my nose to the grindstone on our final release candidate. I tried to be as fair as possible with the frequency of my replies between threads, and I believe this thread had received a majority of my posts during development. Anyway, here we go, nearly 10 pages to get caught up on!

    Yuan-ti Fear effect does not respect shield being up when applied.

    That's because gaze effects (big-bad-eye-over-the-enemy effect) is not meant to be blocked and has to be avoided turning around, as stated in many occasions by developers. That's WAI.

    @asterdahl can we please have any insight on possible plans concerning Tab and Shield mechanics of the Paladin? It's something that a number of people playing this class feel more significant than tweaking magnitudes and cooldowns and that concerns the core identity of the Paladin's role and gameplay. Thank you in advance for any informations on this regard.
    I believe the build immediately following the question or perhaps the build after that included the switch over to Divine Champion, I hope you had a chance to try it out.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,194 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    karvare said:

    Hmmm, when a power says reduces incoming damage by a %, is that a second layer of defense like on live or does that go into damage reduction now? Cone of suck may have a small value if it, Divine Palisade, provides a second layer of defense. Same goes for anything that states reduces damage by a %.

    Powers which indicate that they reduce your damage taken are multiplied together along with the contribution from your defense. To be clear, you're multiplying the inverse of the bonus, or the amount of damage you would take if each buff were all you had.

    For example: you have a 20% and a 10% reduction to damage taken. If you just had the 20% bonus you'd take 80% of the original damage value; 10% you'd take 90%. So, you multiply those two together. 0.9 x 0.8 = 0.72. So your total reduction to damage taken from the two bonuses is 28%. The total reduction to your damage taken from defense is taken into account in the same way. I hope that helps!
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,194 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    @asterdahl Rather than an internal cooldown for Divinity gain, perhaps a cap per second? That way, you don't have to worry about some little hamster eating your cooldown with a normal swing, generating an accordingly small amount, only for you to block a white-flash windup and gain no divinity from it.

    Hi Fenrir4life! Actually, something similar to this is what was implemented for the bonus from Justicar's Charge. In reality, I had no desire to implement a global cooldown for the effect, in order to prevent exactly the sort of situation you describe.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,194 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    @asterdahl. First, apologies to you and all for the length of this post. I wanted to make sure that I experimented with them a bit more before I gave my impressions. Like I mentioned earlier, I'll be focusing on the Oathkeeper side of the paladin class as I think the preponderance of comments on the state of the Justicar more than have that paragon covered. I ran my main (16.6K Devo OP on live) through both the new content as well as back into the campaign areas (Barovia, Chult, SoMI and the rest). I even hopped into a private queue to solo eSoT, eTOS, FBI, and ToNG. Not to try and take a stab at completing them. It was more to get a familiarization of what the Oathkeeper would be facing with respect to the readjusted mobs there and how the encounters fared.

    Hi majorcharvenak, thanks for taking the time to play on preview as always, and thank you for the very in-depth feedback! I read all of it, and I wanted to let you know that quite a few of the powers you identified did receive some changes, as I'm sure you may already be aware. I'm certain it won't be enough if you are comparing it with its old version but Bond of Virtue specifically received a huge buff, and now transfers 100% of the healing, up from 40%.

    The austerity feat, which was new to a build after you sent this feedback should also help to address some of your issues with divinity when using Bane to deal with AoE situations. In regards to cleansing touch, this is definitely something I am going to keep my eye on, and a change may very well be incoming on this power. Obviously we'd like there to be some differences between the healers, with things that they are stronger or weaker at. Paladin has the most mitigative potential, but is weaker in removing negative status effects. Of course, if this becomes a reason to not take a Paladin, or a serious problem in healing certain content, we will definitely make necessary changes.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,194 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    I haven’t gotten to do much testing yet, but right now the changes of this mod to stats and our encounters feels like a double nerf. I still need to do a lot more testing admittedly, but first impressions are not good.

    it is also like no one is listening or caring atleast thats the feel after 4+ weeks of waiting to see something decent happen to paladins but yet another patch and another let down and asterdahl doesnt seem to care or cannot do what we ask because the higher ups or CEOs done made up their minds about this mod atleast thats the whole feeling i keep getting from this escapade,
    I do apologize for how long it took for some of your feedback to be addressed, I do hope you tried Paladin out again after the last few patches, and that some of your frustrations were addressed. I assure you that the delay was not because I did not care, or because I was being forced to not respond to your feedback. It was just a case of having quite a bit to do each week.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,194 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    While this is my “gut response” to the experience, my thoughts are more optimistic after a second attempt and the realisation that the problems I experienced may be very tied to the party composition and aggro management. Though the concern at the end about “not every team is a good one” stands.

    Well.... So I got a little party together and we took a walk through LotMM....

    Tanking: Once people learn this dungeon, and with a full size party I see no particular problems with tanking the dungeon. That worked fine.

    Healing: At the campfire I swapped to heals as there was another tank (who had been running no aggro specific powers) and it was a good opportunity to try out actual healing.

    It was terrible.

    Even before the Divinity turned into rum...


    So the magnitude of the heals compared to the magnitude of the boss damage was such that any individual heal simply wasn't having an effect.

    I tried, Cleansing Touch, Divine Touch, and Divine Shelter, none of them really moved the other PCs health bars worth noting.

    There was just no way to mitigate the damage that the first boss puts out through a combination of those powers and other things.

    Once the Divinity was gone it was way worse.

    I have no idea what it is like with the other healing classes in this level of content, but if they can keep up with the damage out put of the boss and the Paladin cannot, the Paladin can only tank content.

    Incredibly discouraging experience in heal spec, especially when the play of the paladin is so static as it is.

    (Yes maybe a team of good players doesn't have that problem, but most players don't have that luxury and this was a horrid experience.)

    Hi Obsidiancran3! Have you tried healing again as Oathkeeper more recently? I've been healing quite a few endgame dungeon runs as Oathkeeper without much of a problem, even on characters wearing equipment more focused on tanking. In regards to things getting "way worse" when divinity is depleted, I will say that is certainly intentional—when your healer runs out of resources, unless you are very close to done with a boss encounter, that is intended to be a wipe condition.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,194 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    Confirmed @asterdahl! Two paladins in a party could impact divinity regeneration for the Justicar if they receive heals from the Oathkeeper. I'm working with my guildie to get his ACT logs but we did a test in both Dread Ring AND in SoT. Against both sets of mobs, and with him draining his divinity via bane, he was not able to get any divinity regeneration while blocking due to the presence of Divine barrier from my heals. Was using, Divine Touch, Divine Shelter and Lay on Hands with the feat that grants a barrier. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the barrier appears to have priority over block when mitigating damage. It will be an issue in party play, especially the RQs if you wind up with two pallies in the tank and heals slot. If one of them either can't change to another loadout or doesn't have one, one of them might have to drop. Don't get me wrong, I like the barrier. Its an interesting feature that makes it stand out from the other healers, but it needs to be second in priority after block when receiving hits, otherwise it looks really dicey to have two different paladins in the same group.

    Edit: Now that I think about it, will the barrier impact other classes outside of the paladin if they are under the effects of the barrier and have powers that require them to take damage for some kind of benefit? :/

    It is the case that shields will prevent the affected from blocking, however, as the potential divinity pool that may be restored from Justicar's Charge does not recover exceptionally fast, it would be exceptionally difficult to ever negatively impact a Justicar's ability to recover divinity such that their potential pool ever actually caps out, and as long as it does not cap out, you've not wasted any potential divinity.

    However, this is something I will be keeping an eye on, and if it does become the case, and paladins do not want to party with each other, we'll work out a fix. In regards to your follow up question—it would depend on the effect. Most effects which simply require you to take damage will still occur even if divine barrier prevents you from actually taking damage. Justicar's Charge is a special case because under the hood, your blocking hit points are also "shields." Other effects which obviously wouldn't trigger would be any that require your health to fall below a certain threshold, if the divine barrier prevents the target's health from dropping.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,194 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    Hmm...The new feat Spirit of Austerity gives quite a nerf to Smite and Bane. After testing it in Barovia and Chult, I'm not certain its worth the associated reduced divinity cost to slot it. I could see maybe taking it if I put together a strictly group heals loadout but not soloing. Losing half the damage might just be a price too high.

    Bug: There seems to be quite a bit of animation canceling with smite since this patch, @asterdahl. Smite will start and the audio effects will kick, but it will not follow through with the overhead strike if another power is pressed soon afterward. In my case, it was a valorous strike follow - up.

    The boost for healing for Cure, Divine Touch, Shelter, and Sanctuary are less than I'd hope for but still seem to get the job done as well as they can in solo play (as far as Divine Touch and Shelter are concerned anyway). Group play might be another matter and will need to test.

    Oathkeeper STILL does not possess a means to remove negative effects from multiple party members. Cleansing touch DOES that on a devotion paladin on live. Why was this ability removed and the effects limited to one target?

    While I'm pleased that the Oath of Devotion mechanic was unlocked, I was afraid of and subsequently underwhelmed by what it does with respect to adding the barriers to our heals. Barriers which I'm looking to test on other classes to find out if the inclusion of said barrier hampers other classes ability to boost various abilities from damage they received. Unless you changed it with this patch, the Barrier is still struck first BEFORE the block.

    A mixed bag all-around. Off for more testing.

    In regards to Spirit of Austerity: note that there is absolutely a damage:divinity gain, as the reduction to divinity is larger than the reduction to damage. That being said, as you wagered, that feat is actually directed at allowing you to provide damage support more confidently in group situations as you can spend divinity off the top on damage, without dipping as low. I think it still can be practical for soloing though.

    In regards to the animation cancelling issues with Smite, I did try to make some improvements, and I do believe it is in a better state in the last build, and for launch. That being said, working on Module 16, we did identify some very frustrating core issues with our animation and FX system that we would like to address in a future module, so that there are no circumstances where the visual effects can be triggered without the power actually firing and vica-versa. It wasn't something we could address in time for Module 16 launch with all of the other areas we wanted to focus on, and it's something that's been a longstanding issue, though some powers are much easier to break in this way than others, depending on their timing.

    I would also like to genuinely apologize for how long Oath of Devotion sat on preview with no effect, as it ended up feeling like it was some big exciting surprise that was being held off. In reality, it was just a placeholder that was I intended to bake passive effects that felt necessary based on continued feedback and internal playtesting.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,194 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    jimmypdt said:

    So I just tested out the Tank and Healing paragon paths for OP. First off, credit where credit is due. Well done!! Things are coming together in both paths (still a little work to be done but more testing is required first before commenting on it). Of what I have tested, and I still have a lot to test in regards to different powers and feat combinations, one of the major things I have notice is with the Oathkeeper. It seems that the oathkeepers heals give a really nice barrier to whoever is heal (even more when its a crit). This is really nice but worrisome. I feel like this might make tanking useless if the OP can just put shields on the DPSs. More testing is required but this kind of jumped out at me while testing a few things. If anyone else has tested this and can comment on it please do!!
    I wish you the best,
    OPTank_

    Hi jimmypdt, so glad to hear you have been enjoying the Paladin on preview! The strength of the divine barrier effect is definitely something we will be keeping a close eye on in regards to how the Oathkeeper stacks up with other healers. However, from our own testing it seems unlikely an Oathkeeper would be able to fully replace a tank. That said, of course, we'll be keeping a close eye on that as well!
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,194 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    WHAT THE EVER-BLOOMING HECK @asterdahl!?! :astonished: You gave them WINGS? Not ONLY did you give the Justicars an additional mechanic with Divine Champion with some great effects when coupled with Divine Palisade, you gave them FRIGGIN WINGS with the animation? :angry: No more complaints from the Justies are allowed in these forum pages! Nothing but glowing praise and hosannas from the favored of the two paragons from here on out! You got your wings! *turns and smites a kobold while grumbling at the unfairness of it all*.

    Sarcasm aside folks, it REALLY IS both a nice effect and power. Hoods off to you @asterdahl. :wink:

    Haha, yes I did anticipate that feat being rather popular... I actually put those visual effects together myself, as our effects team was already quite busy working on some upcoming content—so I'm glad people are enjoying them!
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,194 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer


    Merits have to be given where they deserve; thank you Asterdahl for your continuous work and the goals achieved =)

    You're very welcome!
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,773Member Arc User
    edited April 23
    asterdahl said:


    Hi Obsidiancran3! Have you tried healing again as Oathkeeper more recently? I've been healing quite a few endgame dungeon runs as Oathkeeper without much of a problem, even on characters wearing equipment more focused on tanking. In regards to things getting "way worse" when divinity is depleted, I will say that is certainly intentional—when your healer runs out of resources, unless you are very close to done with a boss encounter, that is intended to be a wipe condition.

    I have confirmed that a good tank is key to getting good heals, by tanking for Oathkeepers.

    But how does it work that healers running out of resources is intentional, it only affects DCs and Paladins?
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,194 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    greyjay1 said:

    Currently you always overwrite Divine Barriers, this often results in overwriting a big barrier with a weaker one.
    Is this by design? It surely is annoying, especially with some of the new feats focusing on crits.

    It would be awsome if Divine Barriers could only be overwritten by stronger ones, even if that means they may fall off.

    crit:


    non-crit:

    So I know this topic is going to be controversial, but of course, I did consider making the divine barrier behave as you describe, however, divine barriers do in fact have a duration, so the issue here is that—let's say you got that god crit heal off while messing around before a fight starts, and then the tank lollygags and doesn't pull until divine barrier is seconds away from expiring.

    You'd want to reapply, but your new barrier would fail to replace the effect, and then everyone's barriers would wear off. Certainly, there's disadvantages and advantages to both ways of handling things. And of course, you could dream up any number of hybrid approaches to try to mitigate the negatives of each approach. However, on a technical level, in the engine, the current manner of working, and simply failing to apply if the shield is smaller are the only two options.

    I do believe there is opportunity for skill with the way things currently work, and that it is overall less frustrating than being unable to replace a nearly lapsed shield. However, longterm, if the situation becomes dire or exceptionally frustrating, we will absolutely consider making technical changes and possibly examining some novel solution.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,194 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    edited April 23

    Arcturia was a nightmare with Paladin. The main issues were:
    * mob uses power (Festering Swarm) disables the toon
    * this power is cast too offen, lasts quite long
    * mob regularly jumps back into one of these, makes it impossible to use most of the powers
    * mob power Life Drain heals back the mob even if it is blocked, w/o divinity it is impossible to outdamage it
    * it is a 2-3 phase encounter, no time between phases to regain divinity for last phase
    * divinity gain is low for these long encounter
    I almost gave it up, but found a Feat/boon/power setup i could do it at the end. but it was really a specific setup, I would never use in long term.

    When you describe Arcturia regaining hit points from life drain being too much to outdamage without divinity, were you soloing Arcturia? Your group should have had no trouble overcoming the damage of life drain. Arcturia is not really meant to be solo'd.

    You may have to approach divinity gain a bit differently with a boss fight than you would with a group of enemies, and consider changing out your abilities. I've tanked Arcturia with Vanguard, Justicar, and Sentinel quite a few times, and haven't found Justicar to be notably better or worse.


    EDIT:

    Arcturia was a nightmare with Paladin. The main issues were:
    * mob uses power (Festering Swarm) disables the toon
    * this power is cast too offen, lasts quite long
    * mob regularly jumps back into one of these, makes it impossible to use most of the powers
    * mob power Life Drain heals back the mob even if it is blocked, w/o divinity it is impossible to outdamage it
    * it is a 2-3 phase encounter, no time between phases to regain divinity for last phase
    * divinity gain is low for these long encounter
    I almost gave it up, but found a Feat/boon/power setup i could do it at the end. but it was really a specific setup, I would never use in long term.

    That's basically what she does in LotMM as well, be prepared!
    Plus a couple of extra tricks, but those are her central attacks.
    Whoops! I thought the OP was talking about Lair of the Mad Mage. My mistake! We'll definitely be keeping an eye on how much trouble people are having with that fight, and we may make adjustments.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,773Member Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    Arcturia was a nightmare with Paladin. The main issues were:
    * mob uses power (Festering Swarm) disables the toon
    * this power is cast too offen, lasts quite long
    * mob regularly jumps back into one of these, makes it impossible to use most of the powers
    * mob power Life Drain heals back the mob even if it is blocked, w/o divinity it is impossible to outdamage it
    * it is a 2-3 phase encounter, no time between phases to regain divinity for last phase
    * divinity gain is low for these long encounter
    I almost gave it up, but found a Feat/boon/power setup i could do it at the end. but it was really a specific setup, I would never use in long term.

    When you describe Arcturia regaining hit points from life drain being too much to outdamage without divinity, were you soloing Arcturia? Your group should have had no trouble overcoming the damage of life drain. Arcturia is not really meant to be solo'd.

    You may have to approach divinity gain a bit differently with a boss fight than you would with a group of enemies, and consider changing out your abilities. I've tanked Arcturia with Vanguard, Justicar, and Sentinel quite a few times, and haven't found Justicar to be notably better or worse.
    I think he means the version in Wyllowwood, defeating her on a low gear/boon Fighter was a nightmare of the proportions that @kacsanever is describing.

    She is way to keen on her Butterfly Golem in Wyllowwood, and has a tendency to stand in it, making it impossible to attack her with melee only powers.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,194 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer


    The one thing that really stood out was the Shields that major was applying, whenever they break I got the same message that I get when my own shield breaks - this is very confusing. Oathkeeper's shields are tiny compared to the damage mitigated 200k shield I have. So nearly any hit from a big mob instantly shattered their shields and my screen fills with purple broken shields.... This makes it really hard to judge what was happening with my shields and how to use them best.

    We won't have a fix for this immediately, but it is something I am looking into. Unfortunately, from the code's perspective the two shields are not significantly different, so we need a bit of time to implement a fix for this.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,194 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    ragnarz2 said:



    4) Divinity management isn’t as onerous as people keep trying to say. Just stop spamming divinity powers every 2s. (That’s not to say that Divinity Recovery doesn’t need a boost, it’s to say that just because Smite has a 2s cooldown doesn’t mean you need to use it every 2s.) If you absolutely hate “mana management” then NW has never been the game for you as Stamina is used by every class and is a “mana management” process. If you can take the management of stamina to block/dodge, you can manage divinity.

    Personally, the issue is a new "mana management" currency that feels like punishment rather than a fun aspect of the game. It is an unnecessary addition. That and the over simplification of things just screams HAMSTER.
    I wrote a little bit about why we needed to add a resource management mechanic to the game, however, it was easy to miss in the sea of threads and replies on the preview forums, so I'd like to address it again as I know divinity is a hot topic.

    Neverwinter had no natural group fail state before Module 16. In almost any game that features a trinity (tank, healer, dps) or even those that feature additional roles—the healer has a resource pool that can be exhausted providing a natural failure state for a fight. If the DPS were too slow, or if everyone stood in the fire for too long, the tank and party will take too much damage, the healer will deplete their resources, and the party will wipe.

    When all of your heals are tied to cooldowns, there's no elasticity to your group's survivability. You can output a certain amount of HPS, and either the enemy's damage exceeds it and you wipe, or it does not and you can live forever. There's obviously a bit more nuance than that if heals also require aiming, etc. but not a lot. With a resource meter, you can dip into the pool and use it faster than you recover it if your group makes a mistake. And fights that are genuinely challenging will have a natural endpoint.

    Before Module 16, we were basically unable to kill players without using a fight specific gimmick like a cliff, or stacking vulnerability debuts that would cause a power to become an instant kill. So while I understand the frustration with a resource pool feeling like a punishment, because ultimately running out of the pool is meant to be a punishment. We did have serious internal debates about whether something like divinity had a place in Neverwinter.

    It wasn't a decision we made easily, and it wasn't one we made specifically to make Neverwinter more like other games. We experimented with other options but found nothing that achieved the desired result and felt more engaging. Ultimately we believe strongly that the change will improve the health of the game, and that we will be able to build more engaging content as a result.

    I do hope that this explanation at least gives you a little background into the decision making process, even if you don't agree with the outcome.
  • welshdemonwelshdemon Posts: 45Member Arc User
    so I hve not play preview a lot cos I like ot see what it is like when it is live but I read this section and I want to know if this person's post
    Seems we still have a few Paladin exclusive bugs to take care of /like the ability score mentioned above/ but we also have some other important things to take care of before m16 launch.


    @asterdahl I see you've been addressing some of the other classes and thats cool but what about content scaling? This is fundamental for m16 and absolutely must be balanced before going live. You cant have some measly Rotters in CN dealing 20 000 dmg each hit to tanks. You simply cant! That much damage from trash mobs reduces the Block to nothing in seconds and makes short work of even 350-400 hp. Pressure on tanks should come from stronger mobs not some minion trash with unchecked damage.

    And its not just CN, how about Lair of Lostmauth - [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Green Dragonfang deals 160358 (230991) Poison Damage to you with Aimed Shot.

    That is one hit from one Green Dragonfang. My health in LoL is scaled to ~ 350 000. So 2 or 3 hits from those trash mobs before even the first boss can potentially take my tank out! And that particular tank is above 20k item level @lvl 75 on preview.

    The scaling issues and the abnormally high dmg from trash mobs is what can break m16 for you /more than even class balance/. If people cant even do the easier dungeons without wiping you gonna have an uproar.

    has been either sorted or there is another way to do it.i hve 2 loadouts and It seems I am going to hve one load out for lvl 70 contents and one for lvl 80 contents but this is going to be sssssoooooo expensive I think if it is has bad as this person says it is then I willno longe rbe able to play pally cos I dont have the funds to compete with other pallies that r able to buy gear and loadouts
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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