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Official M16: Warlock

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  • warravanawarravana Member Posts: 30 Arc User

    warravana said:


    Hey Hey! After the last patches the magnitude of skills is much lower than in this table!

    I've just checked them, perhaps you read the wrong column; column 3 has the latest values; they're all correct with the exception of Brood of Hadar which has had the tooltip updated to read 550 Magnitude and Brood of 100 Magnitude which is what it's currently doing now.
    Indeed, I looked at the wrong column. I am still upset that our daily do damage like encounters, despite the promises of developers and the fact that the damage from our At-Will is less than that of healers and tanks, although they are all directed solely against the solo goal
    El sol negro brilla, en la frente de la locura el firmar,
    Kelemvor tomó mi trono de la muerte, pero soy eterno en la oscuridar...
    https://www.youtube.com/c/cyric
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User

    @silverwolf#7884 your table only gives the raw numbers and does not allow for the effect of the enemies loosing 30% of their HP. Anything that didn’t get an actual reduction got an effective improvement and things with actual reductions largely stayed the same (some got slightly worse, others got slightly better).

    In simple terms for at-wills if they used to hit for 20 and the enemy had 1000 HP, they used to do 2% with a hit. With the change that enemy now has 700 HP and that same 20 damage is 2.86%. Yes that’s simplistic, but the principle remains, lowering the hp and leaving damage unchanged in effect raises the damage.

    Even things like Arms of Hadar are actually an improvement for the power’s effective damage.

    I get your point but the gain of having "increased" at-wills efficiency is counterbalanced by the decrease of encounters and dailies magnitude. So there is not really a huge gain and fights can still feel painful even for basic quests.

    Lot of feedback to consider already, I am not going to write more or repeat what people already say (I would like to add that AP gain is really awful on hellbringer, and SW dailies damage are not even rewarding (other classes still have >1200 magnitude): on HB using at-wills only, my daily fills in around 1m12 with 4.5 % ap gain and 29.5% recharge speed, whereas on my low gwf that has 3.5% ap gain and 2.8% recharge speed, it fills in the.. same time. And it fills in about 50sec on my low-level DC that has 3%/3.8%).
    Here;
    Any power that didn’t change magnitude improved.

    Powers that changed magnitude down did one of these things: stayed the same, improved marginally, or were reduced for reasons unrelated to the change.

    Also given how fast our Encounters recharge, perhaps the balance of AP gain is based around the expectation that you will cast encounters more often and this will balance things out?
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • hawkeyelhawkeyel Member Posts: 389 Arc User
    I shall have to give the devs. credit on this one point.At least they have reduced the hit points of enemies by 30% before this Mod. goes live.Unlike what they did with Mod. 6 an waiting until after it went live to lower the bar against the enemy. But just like Mod. 6 however this time scaling troubles shall most likely follow us into live and this want be very good to watch on any class. So was you thinking that only the Warlock class was the only one that did not understand that ever class did benefit from the 30% hit point reduction on the enemy.The other poster was just showing at what cost this class paid for that benefit. Then we can go and see just what that benefit cost other classes. So we can be more objective based on how good that class was to begin with.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,016 Arc User
    Silver of Youtube fame did a comparison test with a full party today, she prefers warlock healing over the others. Here is a link to her live stream

    She also did one for tanks and should have a video up on Tuesday.
  • warravanawarravana Member Posts: 30 Arc User
    And if I created the character DD, do I delete it now?
    El sol negro brilla, en la frente de la locura el firmar,
    Kelemvor tomó mi trono de la muerte, pero soy eterno en la oscuridar...
    https://www.youtube.com/c/cyric
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Mod 16 inherits the "plague of Soul Investiture" from last mods, being from low to "no use" in most situation.
    That´s what allready made Damnation locks being from no importance last mods.
    Now we get exactly this one build to be "best choice" in mod 16, having unsolved issues since years... the one build that noone ever could get working, feels like a punishment somehow :(
    In most dps-setups you are forced to run ACC (aoe same as focus dps) otherwise Curse Comsume does not work that good, or you simply have to scip that mechanic completely, Parting Blasphemy on top.
    "Open construction sides" , turning mod 16 into a negative experience right from the start, when not adressed.
    But looking at the actual scaling desaster, companion nerf etc., there are a lot core-problems to solve first.
  • douglasopferbeckdouglasopferbeck Member Posts: 68 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    We haven’t even received confirmation soul investiture dropping off after 5 stacks is a bug or wai. It desperately needs fixing along with at least one more way to apply it other then hadars grasp for bosses.
  • hrakhhrakh Member Posts: 147 Arc User

    We haven’t even received confirmation soul investiture dropping off after 5 stacks is a bug or wai. It desperately needs fixing along with at least one more way to apply it other then hadars grasp for bosses.

    to get any kind of confirmation would require someone that actually understands the concept of communication and people. As opposed to c++ and race conditions... I simply does not seem likely such a person would suddenly turn up for Warlocks this late in the process.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    If cryptic wants us to play with an unfinished class, getting annoyed every time we run content let it be. The answer will show up in deminishing numbers of overall player and the ammount of incoming cash. Not worth to even spend time on testing until things get adressed or even noticed imo.
  • espasbadfistespasbadfist Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 39 Arc User
    Currently it feels to me like the Warlock is not bad concerning survivability and damage output - at least when going solo. BUT there are some things that really feel wrong concerning the feats and powers. That is setting me up. There has been some good feedback here in the thread from people that keep playing the warlock, criticising and proposing solutions for quite some time aka several mods. People that go for the numbers compare them, point on bugs and so on and so on. Not only that there proposals are ignored - there is coming no real feedback after all. Even for me who does not more than trying to give some little tiny pieces to the picture in this forum it hurts seeing these passionate people getting ignored. It hurts because this is one of the most frustration inducing and rude things that one human being can do to another. It is even more rude than stating something like "stick your thoughts were the sun never shines" from the start up. Because you are kidding people giving the false impression that things could be influenced that could be not.
  • geekoxxiiigeekoxxiii Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Thanks for the nerf to Curse Bite, Hellfire Ring, Soul Scorch, Hellfire Expertise.

    Devs, good job! I am proud of you, sincerely. I'M NOT SARCASTIC IN SAYING IT, thank you very much!
  • isaacorion#1994 isaacorion Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    -Immolation spirits can still defy death and continue to fight with and follow you after their despawn animation. And you can still summon as many as you want (I personally stop at 6 when testing now).
    -Soul Investiture still does not refresh puppet uptime like it claims on the tooltip. Testing with Hadar's Grasp, 1st grasp summons puppet, 2nd grants soul investiture, puppet despawns shortly afterward. If testing on Soulweaver, puppet despawns nearly immediately after getting Soul Investiture since SW Grasp is 19 sec CD for me.

    Frankly these are the only reason I log into Preview anymore, cause the second issue is the make-or-break warlock bug in my view (if Soul Investiture doesn't refresh puppet uptime -> can't stack it to max without devoting 80% of your skillset to it -> can't use Risky Investment = 2nd tier feats are pointless), and the Immolation Spirits bug is amusing yet worrying that it might make it to live, be abused by warlocks who don't know better (since keeping them alive is super easy if they are sustained by a last second heal on Soulweaver running Pillar or doing any sort of dmg), and then lead to a ban wave. (yes, I'm paranoid)
    Warlock: Don't want to let you down but I am hell bound. - Imagine Dragons
    Cleric: You can be an angel of mercy or give in to hate. - Shinedown
    Wizard: The more the dark consumes me, I pretend I'm burning bright. - Shinedown
    Barbarian: Am I beautiful... as I tear you to pieces? - In This Moment
  • silverwolf#7884 silverwolf Member Posts: 177 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Where's Hellfire Expertise gone ?
    Post edited by silverwolf#7884 on
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    Its right at the bottom under General on the powers tab.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    So after spending some time in a HE I feel like our damage was reduced in this pass, now it could be bugged HE critters, but prior to this mod, even the super regen critters I could kill, this time, no. Barely getting enough damage from powers, including dailies, to put a dint in an Ogres HP, and with the regen they have, it wouldn't die (so you spend the whole time running away from it, but at least I got the Runic Essence.)

    I'm ok with individual powers having their effectiveness reduced, but a net reduction in the class' effectiveness is bad.


    Update.

    Last night (Apr 15) I restarted her and felt she is stronger at level 70 than she was last week. So I’m going to go with the above was bugged critter, not change in Warlock.
    Post edited by obsidiancran3 on
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • ramesh84ramesh84 Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    Just did some quick check about already reported bugs:
    - Is still possible to keep Immolation Spirits active after cooldown, thought they are not visible. Like stated in a previous post, can just heal them with pillar too keep them up;
    - Vampiric embrace is not summoning puppet since patch stating it should. At this rate I am assuming there was a typo in patch notes;
    - Flames of empowerment not stops stacking buff at x3 (fixed)
    - Vampiric embrace converting 25% of damage dealt into temporary hit points, instead of 50% stated by tooltip
    - Tyrannical curse applies the 15% debuff to its own damage only (please keep the damage link and curse effect only and make it at 30 AP cost)
    - Essence drain with essence of power feat is dealing 100x than a single hit without feat. Tooltip states "deals heavy damage" only, but looks there's one more "0" in the percentage (please make tooltip clearer too);
    - No fix on creeping death
    , my hope is, like I currently asked for, that has been freezed in benefit of a future feat rework, as currrently is an Executioner's gift "clone".

    And adding some feedback (mostly for a post PC live patch):
    - About AoE some skills nerf: I have just run some dungeons before last patch with similar geared barbarian (both BiS gear and 4 men run = no other dps as comparison) and our damage output vs mobs was pretty much equal: in other words I didn't feel owerpowered but quite balanced tho, at least compared to that specific class, I don't know specifically if barbarian AoE was nerfed too this patch, but imho the issue is not in warlock AoE being overpowered: we already got tuned down to an acceptable level, but some other classes lacking on that side. Want to add my small experience on dreadnought fighter as an example: problem with fighter are long cooldown on AoE skills, that leads class being powerful on burst PoV, but weak if (most likely) unable to oneshotting mobs at first encounter rotation, no even mentioning the "fun factor". Taking fighter example shows in that situation is not warlock being overpowered, but fighter in need of some (small) adjustment on AoE skills cooldown/magnitude. I have no competencies to talk about other classes, but friends rogue/cleric gave me feedback in line with what I've just stated and, in general, I don't think any AoE skill should have more than 8-10 seconds to charge.
    - Puppet: as in some build puppet is (finally) dealing a relevant portion of warlock's damage, I see potential issues with gear progressing, both with same characters with different gear score and with future updates. In other words, having puppet dealing a fixed amount of damage and not scaling with summoner's power/self buffs will make harder balancing values in future, because gear improvement will always being less effective on warlock's side for the % puppet damage is not increased. I am aware that's not a quick change, but it's needed to reduce future upgrades' effort. Puppet rework comes in line to the soul investiture fixes and changes that have been asked in this thread;
    - Powers: some skills have no place in any viable setup because not working properly or simply too bad (encounter: dreadtheft, arms of hadar; dailies: tyrannical curse, gates of hell, flames of phlegetos; class features: dark one's blessing, prince of hell. Much more to list, focusing on the really bad ones only): please there's some valuable feedback posted here with really solid option, let's take it as a start for some post PC live update.


    asterdahl said:

    alfalolz said:


    Dear Aster,

    Please look into Warlocks healing in pvp.


    I mean i used to heal the same in pvp just before you have nurfed my bastion of healing.
    Lock is a support class just like Arbiter, so by any means should it heal the way they heal now.
    Better then the Healers imo.

    Hope Locks healing will be adjusted before the mod goes live. thx

    The effectiveness of Soulweaver is something we're keeping a close eye on, and will continue to adjust as we see how they perform both in PvE and PvP.
    Just highlighting that post from cleric feedback to add my two cents: if warlock heals are really performing that better than cleric's please tune them down: I want healer warlock being challenging in PvE and not broken in PvP, as I know the feeling playing vs broken classes in previous mod. Would please you to consider, while doing your math, how weaker warlock is watching some other features, like survivability, damage mitigation and negative condition removing, because Devout has probably better tools that access those.


    Thank you again for time spent reading :)
  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Member Posts: 821 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    regarding Warlock heals vs Cleric heals:
    To me it comes down to risk and reward

    Assuming M16 Warlocks still have a fraction of the Cleric's durability, they're taking a greater risk, so why shouldn't warlocks have better heals? If the Warlock's dps was there, maybe it would be a different matter.

    Same reason why Warlocks and Wizards should outdps Barbarians, Fighters, and Paladins at close range - greater risk ought to mean greater reward - not the reverse.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    Cleric is in a bad spot imo, formerly the class could mitigate incoming damage up to the cap for the hole group, now there is not much left.
    Paladin shields a good ammount of damage with mayor encounter (50%) but DC lost all abilities as it looks and the gameplay is awefull.
  • ramesh84ramesh84 Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    ramesh84 said:

    Just did some quick check about already reported bugs:
    - Is still possible to keep Immolation Spirits active after cooldown, thought they are not visible. Like stated in a previous post, can just heal them with pillar too keep them up;
    - Vampiric embrace is not summoning puppet since patch stating it should. At this rate I am assuming there was a typo in patch notes;
    - Flames of empowerment not stops stacking buff at x3 (fixed)
    - Vampiric embrace converting 25% of damage dealt into temporary hit points, instead of 50% stated by tooltip
    - Tyrannical curse applies the 15% debuff to its own damage only (please keep the damage link and curse effect only and make it at 30 AP cost)
    - Essence drain with essence of power feat is dealing 100x than a single hit without feat. Tooltip states "deals heavy damage" only, but looks there's one more "0" in the percentage (please make tooltip clearer too);
    - No fix on creeping death
    , my hope is, like I currently asked for, that has been freezed in benefit of a future feat rework, as currrently is an Executioner's gift "clone".

    One of two major bugs has been fixed with patch, the second one (Immolation spirit) is still there since week 1: That's a gamebreaking bug that should be hotfixed asap, please consider disabling the daily choose from power page as it won't likely fixed in last days, considering Easter weekend in middle.

    Have you all a great weekend (and an happy Easter to whom is observing it).
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    After fixing Flames of Empowerent, there is no scenario to even think about using that class feature any more. Even spending a 10% buff at the former patch, it was weaker than ACC+Deadly Curse on a singel target. Compared to any other combination out of FoE + ACC/DC/DtD on a singel target, spending a 3% buff now, makes that feat obsolet, you may delete it actually.
    Actually there are 3-4 class feature you could use: NPNM, Deadly Curse, DtD and ACC, from wich ACC and DC is the one and only single target setup, NPNM/DtD(group)+ACC the most common aoe setup, due to the lack of having any options to curse beside using a fix setup of encounter power.
    @noworries#8859 maybe read the feedback thread next time, actually I think it doesn´t matter anyway, since the "fallout" is getting near, nothing else to say :)
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • fns2005fns2005 Member Posts: 203 Arc User
    > @arakk00 said:
    > Class Feature overhaul suggestion: Soul Bonding, to replace Prince of Hell
    When your Lesser Curse does damage, it has a small chance to apply one of several stacking effects. This chance is much higher when a Lesser Curse is consumed. Effects are applied in a 50-meter radius around the cursed target.
    Nearby allies deal 30 magnitude damage on each hit, based on your stats (can crit) for 5 seconds.
    Nearby allies are affected by a 30 magnitude heal each second for 5 seconds.
    Nearby allies move 5% faster for 5 seconds.
    Nearby allies take 5% less damage for 5 seconds.
    Nearby allies reflect 5% of damage taken for 5 seconds.

    The idea here is to have a fairly small proc chance (say 5-10%) on each tick, and a larger chance on consume (50%) so that in a pack, you can consistently get multiple buffs rolling, and against a boss, you can consistently have at least 1. Since I don't think it makes thematic sense for Warlock to be the best healer, this injects some well-needed utility to make up for the gap between us and other healing classes.

    Chaos Magic for the Warlock - I like it!
  • patcherrkmpatcherrkm Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 127 Arc User
    Please fix - The tenebrous enchantment is not proccing under any circumstances. Please fix thank you
  • hrakhhrakh Member Posts: 147 Arc User
    In my closing feedback on the preview versions of mod 16 and the process associated with it I will emulate the Dev "responsible" for our class and keep silent.

    I will however use this space to bid a fond farewell to a play-style I enjoyed immensely for the last year or so, and that after so many years in the dumps finally made my Scourge feel powerful. So; goodbye and thanks for all the fish.

    Back to the dumps we go, where despite the saying "Misery shared is misery halved" there is little solace to be had. But hey, its not as if we're not used to stubbornly hanging on to a near dead class that few if any people at Cryptic seem to have a handle on. Luctor et emergo :)
  • fns2005fns2005 Member Posts: 203 Arc User
    > @schietindebux said:
    > Reading through general feedback threats, it looks like there are so many issues with balancing areas same as groupcontent, they simply have no time left to care about classes as it looks. Some mentioned that level 70 content turns out to be far more challenging than lev 80 zones after patch.
    Why not check stuff first before patching to avoid all motivated player on preview from wasting their time with unthought changes and a sloppy patch ?

    Scaling has been a major issue the past few weeks, I suppose that's why we haven't gotten any dev feedback...
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