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Official M16: Cleric Feedback

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  • glowingemberglowingember Member Posts: 181 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    guess i never noticed the aoe damage on lance even thought it's my main at will - weird.

    EDIT - so uh reading the patch notes for tonight - and all the feedback ppl had over the past two days on specific topics

    *mindblown*

    I haven't been able to play much over the past two weeks - nor have i had much testing time. I shudder to think of what has happened to the guildmates i've been recruiting since january.i just ... ....

    People are starting to work together and here i am thinking it's going to be more fun modding a single player game i've been playing just as long as nwn.
    Post edited by glowingember on
  • alfalolzalfalolz Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    We found a bit of a dis-balance with boons today.
    Im sorry but Im running Russian version so Im not sure how its called in english.
    Last Master boon, if you look left to right its the 4th boon. If you take 3/3. Last rang REFLECTS 100% damage to an opponent.
    e.g. for instance im being an Arbiter, if i crit my FF for 100k, ill get 100k reflected in my face straight!!!

    Please something has to be done, cuz that is unacceptable in pvp!
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    Perfect Balance feels much better now. I kind of like it. It takes practice, but it's pretty good if you play the scales mechanic back and forth.
  • kacsaneverkacsanever Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User
    As this patch seems to be the final here is my feedback:
    Arbiter:
    1. latest updates of feats are really good.
    2. missing heavy sun, but can adapt to live w/o it
    4. class features are adequate
    5. I see good potential in being buffer/debuffer if situation requires it by using gees+break the spirit
    All in all Arbiter is in good shape

    Devout:
    had no possibility to try it in group content, so just my 2 cent:
    1. At-will tightly coupled to anything (divinity in this case) is a big failure. It is an at-will
    2. fluidity is gone, Cleric must stay in CD (channel Divinity) mode for 50% of the time. If it was to "mimic" MP then you forgot the fact, potions are used in other games where MP is a factor. Keep your eye on it, fire potion once off cool-down and do your job in the meantime
    6. CC cleaning abilities MUST list where it has no effect (abilities b/c all 3 healer has an encounter)
    7. Cleric seems to be the least wanted healer at the moment. Pala has viable defensive/offensive utilities (buffs) while in CD mode and SW (will be THE wanted) deals extreme damage as a healer

    In short: Arbiter is kinda OK, Devout is NOT. According to that most of us has at least one DPS toon, Cleric will be a do not use it, focus on a DPS and SW/Pala if you wanna be a heaer
  • rickcase276rickcase276 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,404 Arc User
    I am sure random groups that are formed in PE or other places will not want devout as a healer, but more than likely most pre-made groups will still be fine with devout, or even arbiter as a secondary dps. It all ends up being who you chose to play with.
  • kacsaneverkacsanever Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User

    I am sure random groups that are formed in PE or other places will not want devout as a healer, but more than likely most pre-made groups will still be fine with devout, or even arbiter as a secondary dps. It all ends up being who you chose to play with.

    I don't disagree you can play with your friends as a Devout or Arbiter. But I am afraid there will be be like "LFH SW (maybe Pala) no Cleric" and "LFDPS (no Cleric)" even in alliance chat.
  • rickcase276rickcase276 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,404 Arc User
    Then my alliance is a bit different than yours. In mine the leaders of the alliance main clerics, so they won't have an issue taking any cleric. But I can see how it may be a thing, for certain.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    I would actually say Arbiter is just fine. It has no issues at all when playing solo, and should work well enough in groups as a secondary DPS. As for Devout, yeah, I see no reason why anyone would ask for one instead of Warlock (who has decent DPS too) or a Paladin (who has a bit of mitigation as well).

    My (very rough) estimate is that the Cleric would need to outheal the other healers by 30% to compensate for what they offer in addition to healing.
    Post edited by adinosii on
    Hoping for improvements...
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    We'll be fine to run with friends. I know my friends won't care, but a large point of the balance and rework was to make each version of the role equally desireable. It's supposed to be Devo=Cleric=Temp, but in reality it is Temp>Devo>Cleric. They have created a situation in which one will be less desirable because the other two offer the same heals PLUS buffs, and templock is also PLUS damage. I don't want the other two to be nerfed really. There's been plenty of that, but Devout was gutted too hard to be competitive. And feated AA does NOT make up for that.
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    adinosii said:

    I would actually say Arbiter is just fine. It has no issues at all when playing solo, and should work well enough in groups as a secondary DPS.

    The bolded part is not fine. "Secondary DPS" is not a role at which any non-buffer class aspires to excel at in any game, and I'm not convinced that such a thing will even effectively exist in M16, at least among the DPS roles. To me, secondary DPS is basically a healer role that doesn't need to spend much time hard-casting heals. Also, with the sweeping changes to buffing and debuffing mechanics, where is the advantage to inviting secondary DPS when you can simply fill the other DPS spots with suitable "primary" options?

    If Arbiter ends up being an excellent second-rate DPS, that will be disappointing.
    adinosii said:


    My (very rough) estimate is that the Cleric would need to outheal the other healers by 30% to compensate for what they offer in addition to healing.

    Attempting to compensate for increased damage and/or utility by other healing classes by simply jacking up the healing power on Devout would probably fail at its intended purpose. At best, Devout becomes the lower-geared and/or new-player-friendly choice because its heals are so strong that almost anyone can get the job done; at worst virtually no one uses it because the other healers do the job just fine and do more on top of it. Healing in excess of what's required to keep players alive (within a reasonably comfortable margin for error) is completely wasted.

    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,719 Arc User
    From my limited time doing group play, Arbiter can compete very well for DPS. I was regularly outperforming a Barbarian (DPS) of equal gear, especially in AOE.
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    I would actually say Arbiter is just fine. It has no issues at all when playing solo, and should work well enough in groups as a secondary DPS. As for Devout, yeah, I see no reason why anyone would ask for one instead of Warlock (who has decent DPS too) or a Paladin (who has a bit of mitigation as well).

    My (very rough) estimate is that the Cleric would need to outheal the other healers by 30% to compensate for what they offer in addition to healing.

    More healing is not a suitable answer unless there is a NEED for that more healing. Which means content would need to be tuned to make it necessary. Then we have the problem that we've purposely created a situation where the other two heal roles will be inadequate. I absolutely do not want to support or see anything that would cause the huge pendulum shifts NW is infamous for. The appropriate solution, and the one we have been pointing out for weeks, is something needs to be added to devout to level field. Something that is NOT heals, that is desirable and useful for teams, and something which wouldn't tip the scales too far towards cleric. Maybe we can negative status removal on more of our powers or something? That's only situationally useful compared to what temp and Devo offer, but it would at least be something, and I doubt that could be very game breaking.
  • kacsaneverkacsanever Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    I would actually say Arbiter is just fine. It has no issues at all when playing solo, and should work well enough in groups as a secondary DPS. As for Devout, yeah, I see no reason why anyone would ask for one instead of Warlock (who has decent DPS too) or a Paladin (who has a bit of mitigation as well).

    My (very rough) estimate is that the Cleric would need to outheal the other healers by 30% to compensate for what they offer in addition to healing.

    Well, for Arbiter there might be a need as secondary DPS but in this case you are limited to one DPS skill + Geas + BtS but at least BtS. It is not bad to be honest, I have liked, like and will like to play the buffer/debuffer role. As a pure DPS there are better choices.
    Devout should be more than just a healbot.
    The main problem at the moment is the damage what healer SW dishes out. It makes the SW to be THE healer for group. They are aware of it but won't be "fixed" by M16 hitting live I am afraid.
    Once "fixed" SW and Paladin will be in the same good state. Hence, Cleric will still be the least wanted class. More healing capability wont be a good solution as @kythelion#3210 elaborated above.

    What I could imagine as a solution is that Cleansing Light would be exclusive to Cleric AND if there were so many negative effects it makes a Cleric to be a viable choice in group content. I am not thinking on DoTs, more likely debuffs on stats, for example ToNG last boss defense debuff. If there were damage/crit/CA/arpen/accuracy debuffs then it would be viable.
    BUT:
    SW: Warlock's Bargain: Removes one negative effect from allies within 80'
    Pala: Cleansing Touch: Removes one negative condition
    So again, what is what Cleric adds to the group what SW/Pala can not but more?


  • glowingemberglowingember Member Posts: 181 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    if you did have a situation where MORE healing would be needed it would be early on in the mod when people are getting geared up and they need the extra healing power. Then afterwards, with better equipment the devout would be turfed for the "less powerful" healers that offer better extra utility and group bonuses.

    it's a similar situation with the early game when we had t1 armour high prophet with its armour shredding ability which increased everybodies damage, and the t2 armour miracle healer that added an extra healing burst to the cleric.

    The more desirable armour in the begining was the t2 set, which was harder to get and no one wanted you to tag along if you used high prophet because they didn't see a need for the shredding.

    Until a few mods later when no one wanted the miracle healer armour and they only wanted clerics in high prophet.


    The point is - All three healing classes must offer the same level of healing ability and and extra thing.so why not add the ff, geas combo to devout and call it a day. (if i am getting the combo right).

    It's completely fair and the devout could use another damage spell anyway.

    otherwise, as everyone here is telling you - you are setting the devout up for failure.

    I'm not even sure why the buffing spell is on arbiter to begin with - but since many dps classes seem to have buffing spells it all makes.... sense ?


    EDIT: as the preview testing comes to an end, I am starting to get a bit of a sense of deja vue all over again. There are times when the feedback from all of us testing was listened to and acknowledged by the dev's. Not necessarily implemented, but at times the dev's were willing to change their vision for what the testers said would work better.

    Other things the dev's would not budge on or blatantly ignore.

    In short I think the character class changes (not that i have looked at all the classes) will be a success in the long run, but some basic system changes are just outright weird, break common sense and rewrite the rules of math. People invest real money into their characters, and i see some acknowledgement with the system in place that lets us exchange echantments for others.

    Considering the changes to mounts and companions there should have been a similar exchange program implemented for those - a lot of cash went into those things.

    But the biggest changes seem to be with the way stats have changed under the hood. Combined with the scaling changes. This is straying farther and farther from the way the pnp system implements their stats.

    I don't mean i expected a direct correlation between the two systems. But in the video game, with the new systems in place, i would expect things like every time a character levels they get a 1% increase to basic stats like the crit boost, chance to avoid crit etc etc. Then are ability stats would add a few more %, and then feats and boons would add more, and then finally we would have our gear which would add a few more - no need for universal stat gain from our gear because it's all built into our character growth from leveling.

    The only time when there were traps built into our choices are when we were given poor information on what a feat does.

    Example. i believe it's called high templar - the dc has a chance to gain an armour penetration buff for 10 seconds. Only the thing had an internal cooldown of 5 minutes which was never listed anywhere. (that would be the trap, just to be clear)

    Be smart, Be better. Be more clear.

    All of these things are easy to balance with the new counter roll stats. The sky is not falling, so why divide all of our stats by 1000. The real benefit of a level cap increase is the chance to soft rest the numbers, not bring all them crashing around us to the floor like a 5 year old having a temper tantrum with is building blocks.

    I hope things work out in the long run, and i will be sticking around. However when the workshop was implemented i reduced the number of my characters form 50 to 11. With this new mod i will lowering that even further from 11 to, perhaps 5.

    After all there is no real point to being heavily investing my time into crafting anymore. Considering that was currently the thing that was holding me to the game and it's just evaporated with the new mod, we will have to see what comes next.

    Meanwhile i'm going to learn to mod FE:LH because i like the game and i now have a few extra hours a day.

    Thanks a bunch all
    Post edited by glowingember on
  • glowingemberglowingember Member Posts: 181 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    oops i meant 30 to 11 what is this 50 thing lol

    and err i meant 5% per level increase rather than 1% - just editing here since i i didnt want my post to dissapear from too much edits
    Post edited by glowingember on
  • picar66picar66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 118 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    when you are lvl 70 and inside your guildhall, then you are scaled to lvl80 and that is where you get very high statvalues. may be that is what @adinosii shows.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    picar66 said:

    when you are lvl 70 and inside your guildhall, then you are scaled to lvl80 and that is where you get very high statvalues. may be that is what @adinosii shows.

    Eh, no.

    Actually, it seems the last patch changed something - some of my stats went down a bit. ArPen went from 71K to 68K, for example, even though there were no changes to my gear.

    Anyhow...this is pretty much irrelevant - the stats I posted were from a BiS 24K IL build on Preview, and is quite a bit above what I will be on day 1 of Live playing.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • alphastreamalphastream Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 209 Arc User
    After playing live, I just have to say it's okay. It's not absolutely terrible, it's certainly not super fun. In my personal opinion, it is less fun and less engaging than in Mod 15.

    I also suspect it's far too complicated and confusing for new players: lots of keywords that don't make intuitive sense and a lot you have to learn during play that isn't how you actually want to play. Before, you could know nothing and just blast encounters and you were fine. Divinity mode then added a layer you could master, but it wasn't particularly hard and once you understood it, it made sense and was both engaging and rewarding. Here, it's non-intuitive.

    A big fix would be a colored border around each power to let players know if it is radiant or burning. That would go a long way. But, bottom line, to me this is less fun than before.
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  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    I expect these threads will close soon since we're now officially live, but here's a quick follow-up to my earlier feedback for @asterdahl:

    - I find Arbiter to be a lot of fun. The playstyle is still enjoyable and further improved since early Preview. Not everyone will agree, but I really like this design. Of course it lacks the raw power of the old design, but so does every other class rework. It's refreshing not being able to autopilot virtually everything like before, where it wasn't even necessary to use Divine encounters for most content in the game.

    - The feat overhaul was pretty solid, but a couple of pieces of constructive feedback:

    Angel of Death, as others have pointed out, has too long of a wind-up and too short of a duration to be and feel truly impactful.

    Inner Balance is designed somewhat to fail. Half of its benefit depends on having Combat Advantage and Armor Penetration values close to each other, which is undesirable considering that players need far less Armor Penetration to be fully effective than they do Combat Advantage.

    Prophecy of Doom doesn't seem to be effective enough to justify its extremely long cooldown and conditional use. I haven't done extensive testing with it yet, but it would have to prove significantly stronger than Break the Spirit or Geas to earn a spot in a single-target rotation, and my dummy testing isn't encouraging so far. Maybe I'm missing something?

    Sudden Verdict goes a long way towards making Arbiter feel less sluggish, but it also highlights how plodding the pace can feel in comparison when RNG doesn't deign to grace you with procs.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • alphastreamalphastream Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 209 Arc User
    I really agree on the rotation aspect. The Arbiter is totally fine running around Undermountain, because the rotation cooldown isn't bad. Everything refreshes post combat. In something like Throne or Prophecy (specifically the second wave with a PUG), where mobs are constantly spawning and overlapping, we can really spend a ton of time sitting there regaining divinity, and I can't say it is fun for me. I particularly miss the mod 15 style of play in those situations.
    Learn more about Dungeons & Dragons tabletop at Alphastream.org.

    Learn about Neverwinter and the Lore of D&D on YouTube

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  • raziel2004#7353 raziel2004 Member Posts: 88 Arc User
    Can BTS change with Geas. I would like to help buff or support my group in both paragon.
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