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Official M16: Fighter Feedback

11617182022

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  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    dolrey said:

    Feedback about feats changes.

    Overall changes in feats looks interesting. But some mechanics of vanguard are not logical and should be tuned a bit in my opinion.


    I.


    Feat [Critical Deflection] looks not logical. Vanguard is supposed to be tanky path and chance of crit is not tanky stat at all to focus on it. Moreover tanky tanks prefer to maximise deflection chance. So conditions for activation of this feat will never be reached by tanks.

    I would like to suggest to reverse condition of this feat so it will be activated when your deflection chance is higher than crit chance. Or just delete at all this condition because different temporary buffs of other classes can change your stats so this feat just can have anti synergy with different buffs (buffs just will debuff you what is wrong i think).





    II.


    Feat [Combat balance] has too tricky conditions too. In practice it is just impossible to make 3 stats absolutely equal so it always will be close to 10% but not 10%.

    This condition really looks strange. Possibly it would be better to delete it at all because as I have already wrote different temporary buffs of other classes can change your stats so this feat just can have anti synergy with different buffs (buffs just will debuff you what is wrong I think). Or you just can replace this feat with old one [Armor of bahamut] which is much more logical and effective.






    So this pair of feats (previously discussed [Critical Deflection] and [Combat balance]) will be kind a polar feats. [Critical Deflection] will give you benefits when incoming damage is relatively low. While [Combat balance] will be more effective when you just do not have time to restore stamina surviving under high incoming damage.



    III.


    [Perfect Block] looks cool and finally make vanguard much more tanky and effective against burst damage than dreadnought. Also this feat no longer has same effect of another daily power [Bladed rampart] wich already give damage mitigation buff. But 180 seconds cooldown on [Determination]!! I am absolutely agree that such strong feat should not be spamable. But this cooldown also decreases resistance to control effects what is not right.

    In my opinion it would be better to add this 180 sec cooldown only to this feat to [Determination] should be availeble wthout cooldown (it just should activate [perfect block] every 180 seconds). And it would be better to add icon in buff bar to give to players info when [Perfect Block] is on cooldown (like [Ferocious reaction] works in m15). Also probably this cooldown should be reseted after death to make this feat more responsive in PvP.





    ____
    So different artifacts or powers like this will just turn off previously described 2 feats. Not good.


    I wanted to address a misunderstanding regarding Critical Deflection and Combat Balance. The full percentage listed by the feats is available when the condition is met, but not meeting the condition does not mean that no effect is received, instead the effect decreases slightly the further away you are from meeting the condition.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    Dig In Version 2
    Repeated low DPH testing:]
    (Using identical Methods and Conditions as above)
    4) Analysis
    Lava caused 1069 DPH on Control and 594 DPH on Dig In
    Flamebow caused 2159 DPH on Control and 882 DPH on Dig In
    Dig In (v.2) reduced Lava damage by 55% and Flamebow damage by 41%.
    Dig In (v.2) increased Flamebow survival by 233%.
    For comparison, Dig In(v1) offered 100%/75% protection and 500% test survival.

    5) Conclusions
    These results suggest that Dig-In (v.2), does improve survival of the Vanguard in low DPH encounters.
    Dig In (v.2) appears to be working as described.
    Dig In (v.2) offers 45%/34% less protection and 47% less survival then Dig In (v1).

    6) Discussion
    The Tab function now offers less personal protection. Not more. Less.
    image
    The problem with Dig-In (v.1) was immobility and inactivity.
    Dig-In (v.2) has immobility, inactivity and vulnerability.
    I am a baffled as to how reducing the Dig In survival improves it's usefulness.
    The only logical assumption is that multiple other party-protecting factors have been added such as passive threat generation during the Dig-In.

    In the case of Dig In's added defensive bonus changing from a flat reduction to damage taken to a larger hit points absorbed:stamina ratio than the basic block—we actually found that Dig In was increasing the survivability of Vanguards a bit too high over the other tanks when it came to dealing with high damage boss mechanics.

    That being said, I feel that the added 25% hit points over standard block and omni-directionality of the block, along with the combat advantage resistance still makes Dig In worthwhile to use defensively. I still find myself using it in some AoE situations as well as, of course, to block predictable high damage sources I can't avoid.

    That said, the introduction of the counterattack mechanic was by far the biggest change to Dig In, and that is now a permanent fixture of Dig In, as opposed to a feat. I hope that that change will change the feeling of the power considerably. Finally, although no threat changes were made to Dig In outside of retaliate, Fighter's threat generation was enhanced in general, and I believe it is now very possible to use Dig In in real fights without losing threat.

    That said, please continue to send your feedback. I know it seems set in stone now, but if Dig In is received poorly at launch it can still very well change in future modules, or even sooner.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    For context, here is my preview Vanguard.
    image
    900 level gear, rank 14 defensive enchants
    330,000 HP
    Maxed all possible defensive Boons
    Not perfect, but certainly a solid tank build so far.

    Ran a few more T2s, tried shift shield and Tab Dig-In (version 2.0) in every conceivable tanking situation:
    Large packs of trash mobs
    Small packs of trash and a mini-boss
    Boss fights...
    Except for trash mobs (where I don't need to Turtle anyway) the reduced stamina shield gets smashed instantly...
    Mid-level bosses are 1-shotting me straight through the shift shield AND the Tab-Dig-IN.

    Here's an example. Lostmauth. Mid to low level dungeon.
    image
    Scorpions ganking me through shift AND tab 100% of the time.

    And check this combat log on the final fight:
    [Combat (Self)] Your Block absorbs 91968 damage from Molten Gold's Molten Gold.
    [Combat (Self)] Stalactite deals 143493 (371250) Physical Damage to you with Falling Stalactite.
    [Combat (Self)] Stalactite gives 0 Knockback to you with Falling Stalactite.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Not enough Action Points.
    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Amazia 1 gives 55588 (54232) Hit Points to you with Bastion of Health.
    [Combat (Self)] Not enough Action Points.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Amazia 1 gives 26007 (25373) Hit Points to you with Bastion of Health.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Sigil of the Cleric gives 590 (576) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Amazia 1 gives 24397 (23802) Hit Points to you with Bastion of Health.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Sigil of the Cleric gives 590 (576) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Must have a target.
    [Combat (Self)] Still recharging...
    [Combat (Self)] Must have a target.
    [Combat (Self)] Still recharging...
    [Combat (Self)] Lostmauth deals 11178 (11698) Fire Damage to you with Fire Aura.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Block absorbs 91968 damage from Molten Gold's Molten Gold.
    [Combat (Self)] Molten Gold deals 2070206 Fire Damage to you with Molten Gold.
    [Error] You have fallen in battle!

    Note those damage numbers. 2 Million damage. Blasted through that 90k shield like it was paper.
    Shift shield failed instantly on every big hit.
    330K HP and endgame gear. Smashed like a bug over and over and over.
    I can't keep running away. It's my job to get in their face and keep smacking to keep aggro (which is better now... thanks?)

    And Dig-In was worse. It absorbed a bit more damage then shift, but I have to squat unmoving in the middle of concentric red circles knowing the next hit will kill me.
    With shift-shield at least I can try to strafe into better position.

    @asterdahl , not asking for permashield or an easy button.
    I'm really, really trying to give this a chance.
    Spent 8 hours on preview trying to figure it out.
    A tank must be mobile. A shield must be able to withstand a few big hits.
    If my tank, (in all modesty) far from the weakest in the game cannot stand up to a low tier boss, how will all the newer tanks survive?
    I am beyond frustrated.
    Please, please explain how we are supposed to use this 50% shield and statue-of-liberty-pose Tab when bosses smash them with ease?

    Certainly dig-in is not made for situations where a lot of dodging is required, however, it seems clear that there are some problems with enemy damage going on in Lair of Lostmauth. I believe some of these issues may have already been resolved, but I will double check those values tomorrow. You shouldn't be taking such big hits in general, but especially not on a well geared character, even with scaling in place.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer


    3) Iron Warrior and Knight's Valor are subpar. I cannot foresee any situation where I would slot these powers, honestly. Especially Iron Warrior, the long cast time alone is probably dangerous enough to offset the measly 20% DR gain, and all the benefits from mod 15 are gone too. Consider taking another pass at these powers, especially consider making Iron Warrior cast instant and while moving, like Into The Fray.

    For launch, Knight's Valor will now transfer all threat that the covered target generates to the Vanguard for the duration of the effect. I hope you'll try out the power with these changes, and let me know what you think.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    We have to combine "enforced threat" skill with "staying power" passive to do our tank job correctly now when older skill did that alone. It seems all skills are based on same way. U only divide sadly older skill in 2 parts, skill and passive. It looks like gadget or no idea for this class.

    I would encourage you to try out some builds that don't involve Enforced Threat if you're finding it frustrating to use. I have been tanking a lot of dungeons and I rarely use Enforced Threat. Certainly in boss fights it is not necessary, but even in AoE situations with DPS giving you a run for your money, you can focus on threat generating attacks and still come out on top.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer


    @asterdahl
    Played over the weekend with the new changes. Love the changes to dig in. Very responsive, very fast. Feels much cleaner to use. Thank you for a few more of the bug fixes.

    The general rebalance of stats/critter hp dropping by 30% feels pretty darn good. Even needing to get more stats, they feel more linear, rather than a binary on/off switch.

    At-Will damage improvements feel great. I don't feel like I'm using wet paper when I right/left click things now. The encounters/dailies still feel powerful, but not the only way for me to do damage.

    The damage resistance change was also a good/clean idea. Negation (even though the tooltip is still bugged) feels useful now. I will say, general feedback on the Negation enchant: The 10 stack drop of negation for a 5% heal is sub-optimal. It resets all your stacks, making it worse for a tank. I'd rather that feature not to exist at all. Keep the 10 stacks up, or give it a different effect if you're dropping them. You only get the 10 stacks on for about a second, then they're wiped and you lose all that DR you've built up. Makes your damage reduction difficult to predict and unstable for your healers. Either keep it constant and remove the 5% heal completely (I can't even tell I've been healed at all with that), bump up the heal, give it another effect when it expires, or do something like only removing half the stacks for a 3% heal so you don't lose 20% DR instantly. Right now, it rubber bands my DR, and doesn't feel good to tank or get heals during that window.

    I know Fighter feedback is all over the place, but at least from my perspective, the changes are moving in a positive direction. We're getting there.

    Thanks Tyfud, I'm glad to hear you are enjoying the changes!
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    The following skills have an error in the magnitude/buffs shown in the tooltip:
    -Heavy slash shows 100 of magnitude and actually makes 80 of magnitude
    -Shockwave shows 680 of magnitude and actually makes 1100 of magnitude
    -Commander's strike added effect shows 5% more damage and actually make 10% more damage


    Thank you for the report!
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    asterdahl said:


    An example of that would be: if there's a feat column wholly devoted to AoE, I was surprised how negative the feeling was that that feat column was not doing any work for someone in a single target situation. And some of you have been very frustrated about being in that situation. Of course, we are all prepared for negative feedback and reactions when we make even small changes, so we were definitely prepared for a negative reaction. But I'm happy to admit that particular element was a surprise for me.

    *waves from the Paladin thread*

    I've replied before about this, in some detail, in multiple threads.

    In truth I'm not sure why you are so surprised, one of the goals that you set out before us for Mod 16 as a reasoning for the simplification of the Feat trees was to remove "trap choices". You also set out a goal of making more valid play style choices.

    The problem, in many regards is less about specific feats targeting specific powers, its having a column where you end up with 2 specific power choices. If both of those feats affect a power a player does not want to choose, you have removed 1/5 of their very small number of choices. That's a huge cost!

    Pairing weaker generic feats with stronger specific power feats would help alleviate that, but part of the problem is also that the feats have a small impact.

    There are 5 choices, in many cases it barely matters if you even bother to make them! There are classes where I look at the 2 choices on a row of feats and think "whatever" and just randomly click one for the sake of having it clicked.

    If you limit choices, then the available choices have to be more meaningful.

    So, you have limited choices, some of which are seen as meaningless, thus lots of negative reaction. *shrug*

    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    @asterdahl

    If you genuinely like the feel and function of Critical Deflection and Combat Balance, then I urge you to build in, and reflect in the tooltip, an efficacy "floor" such that neither feat can operate at below half of its maximum efficacy, no matter how far the player's stats deviate from the 'ideal' stipulated in the feat.

    I also urge you to doublecheck that normal damage resistance from Defense or from powers, are applying properly to Blocked damage(obviously, Combat Balance's resistance isn't supposed to, but some testing has indicated that even defense from gear is not applying to block HP).

    I will say that, for critical deflection the formula is a linear ratio between the two stats, moving between a 0% bonus and the full bonus as described. Combat Balance meanwhile is the result of the Coefficient of Variation of the three stats. I do understand the desire for more information in the tooltip, however, we are also trying to keep the information digestible and not overwhelming.

    In regards to damage resistance vis-a-vis blocking: blocking leverages the same shielding system as temporary shield sources like the Paladin's divine barriers, and should have no effect on damage resistance, however, it also leverages some newly written code—in order to tie that shield effect to your stamina, so I will double check that there are no issues and let our QA team know that this is a suspected problem area. If you can post your ACT logs, screenshots of your tests, etc. that would be helpful!
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    rjc9000 said:

    Latest Update:
    Bugs:
    Seethe will drain ~5 stamina but continue to generate Vengeance despite the Stamina drain "lock".

    Heavy Slash still says it is a magnitude 100 attack but is still an 80 magnitude attack. Seeing as 80 seems to be the "correct" adjusted damage, please fix the tooltip of the power accordingly.

    Commander's Strike still places a 10% damage increasing debuff rather than 5% as stated in tooltip. If the power is supposed to be that way, update the tooltip to match, or make CStrike match the stated 5% on tooltip.


    Into the Fray still grants its ridiculous bonus to Action Point gain.

    Weight of Vengeance does not proc if you feat Bloody Reprise.

    Landwaster refuses to work unless you feat Bloody Reprise.



    Feedback:
    I'm impressed at the updates on the class. I and many others thought the class would go live as according to the 4/5/2019 preview update, but seems as if there's some last week magic still at work. The following are my initial thoughts:

    Momentum: It works, but having to run around to get the bonus Bull Charge damage is silly.
    Either make the bonus Bull Charge damage activate without running around, or add in an additional effect after your charge (such as 5% bonus damage for 5 seconds).


    Combat Superiority: It's great! It doesn't need any adjusting.

    It gives a damage bonus encourages an actual rotation (Encounter -> At-will -> insert any "action prompt" feats that want you to mix your At-wills" like Heavy Slash -> Encounter -> Repeat).


    Ricochet:

    -The description needs to be reworded to be less confusing, as it might be confusing to figure out whether the "(x)%" less relative to the first hit, or to each subsequent hit. I think it would be easier to say the shield can hit a total of 4 enemies, with the second hit dealing 250 magnitude, 3rd dealing 150 magnitude, and fourth dealing 100 magnitude.


    If you divide every hit by 1.0425 (17 STR * 0.025% = 4.25% damage bonus), you get base damage values of 350, 250, 150, and 100 magnitude respectively.

    -While the feat is pretty hilarious to watch, the feat doesn't make sense in that slot of the DPS spec. In Tier 2, both options are dedicated to AoE damage, which means that players will effectively have a "wasted" feat in most boss fights.

    Here are my suggestions to Ricochet:
    -The feat is merged with Shieldthrower in the Vanguard tree, making Shield Throw serve as a ranged Enforced Threat (hits multiple targets, no longer stuns but generates bonus threat on targets hit). The feat could also be interesting if the stun was kept in as a Vanguard exclusive feat, as stunning multiple targets could make Shield Throw as a tool to use to engage safely/get breathing room.
    - After merging Ricochet with Shieldthrower, move Weight of Vengeance replaces the now empty slot in the Tier 2 of the DPS path.


    Crushing Blows: While the feat works, the visual effect of the rocks breaking from the ground is not a very "strong" indicator of the feat working. I initially didn't notice the feat working until I looked into the combat log.


    Rolling Hatred: I think the effect should just be whenever you score a Critical hit, not requiring a Vengeance threshold.

    I can see where the design comes from, where you'd combine with Bloody Reprise to ensure you stay above 50% stamina (great for a basic "hit enemies harder" build that doesn't require absorbing damage with shield). However, limiting it to 50% or above doesn't really help for the build that wants to avoid using shield/Seethe.


    Heated and Steady Vengeance: Both of these class features are lackluster, I'd suggest combining both into one consolidated "get and keep Vengeance easier". For the empty class feature slot, I'd hope for another offensive class feature, as most of the options available are rather lacking.

    As always rjc9000, thanks for checking out the changes on preview and posting such thorough feedback! I've read all of it and I believe most of the red text bugs you pointed out have been fixed for launch, but those that have not I will try to get fixed ASAP. I wanted to address two feedback items:

    The effect of Momentum on Bull Charge is meant to be independent of the run speed bonus. If that is not the case, it is a bug and I will be addressing that ASAP!

    In regards to Rolling Hatred: I understand the desire for it to not feature the vengeance requirement, however, it's a fairly powerful effect, and combines very strongly with Bloody Reprise. The design for this combo was that you'd still have to use Seethe or block damage to get some vengeance back if you did happen to let your vengeance fall below the threshold without making use of Bloody Reprise. The goal wasn't to create a built that would literally never have to Seethe, even if a mistake was made.

    I know that it doesn't specifically address this feedback, but the damage bonus granted when you are "vengeful" will be increased for launch along with a few other damage adjustments to ensure that Dreadnought is in a competitive place with other DPS.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    Knight's Valor offers inadequate party protection due to it's single target.
    Ran several preview dungeons in past 2 days using KV including CN, eToS, FBI, ToNG.


    There are many situations where holding aggro alone is not enough.
    Often the tank's whole-party damage mitigation is the key to survival.
    Examples:
    ToNG Withers Fight (2nd Boss)
    image
    FBI Dragon Turtle
    CODG Atropal Fight
    CR Strahd fight (between Strahd phases)

    In all of these fights, holding aggro is not enough.
    Red circles drop randomly, not based on aggro, on party members and can 1 shot them.
    Vanguard has NOTHING to protect them.
    KV applies randomly to nearest party member, whether they need protection or not.
    Everyone else is naked.
    It is useless in it's current form in these and most other fights.
    As it stands now I would not want a Vanguard tanking for me in these dungeons...
    that says alot as my main is a Vanguard!


    Solution:
    Return KV to whole-party protection at a reduced level (30%).
    That is not overpowered at all. People still need to dodge red or they will kill themselves and the tank.
    But making it whole-party will make the Vanguard somewhat useful to the party.

    Withers is an absolute mess on preview, and I sincerely apologize for that. We fixed him this week and those fixes will be in the launch build. Grasping hands is used far less often, all bigby's hands attacks deal significantly less damage, as do the flame jets along the top. I built most of the boss encounters beginning with Fangbreaker Island up through Castle Ravenloft, but a handful of bosses were created by other designers. Bosses are far more custom than general enemies, and vary greatly under the hood based on the designer that built them. In the case of Withers, that designer is no longer on the team, so it took us a little bit longer to resolve the issues that arose as a result of Module 16's changes with certain bosses.

    I don't plan to changes KV to be party wide. That style of gameplay where the tank can absorb all of the party's damage taken is something we have intentionally moved away from. In reality, unless the damage transferred was massively reduced, KV could also cause the Vanguard to die nearly instantly in a huge number of situations.

    However, I do absolutely understand your frustration with fights where you can't seem to do your job correctly, and I assure you those like Withers are absolutely bugged, so please continue to send in those reports.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    rjc9000 said:

    @asterdahl

    I know you're busy and all with publishing the build for Mod 16's release in 6 days, but I was wondering if you knew if the Heavy Slash artifact mainhand bonus boosts the damage of the additional 200 magnitude from?

    For that matter, would the damage of procs like Crushing Blow or Executioner's Cut be increased by the Brazen Slash offhand bonus, assuming that those procs came from Brazen Slash?

    It's not very easy to figure these things out due to the artifact weapons not having a stable weapon damae range.

    (Yes, I note the irony of me pointing out training weapons having the artifact bonuses as a bug. Then the dev team deletes the bonuses, and now I'd want them to test stuff with those artifact bonuses.)

    I also was wondering if you would post all the abilities' aggro multipliers here (or somewhere) at some point. It would be useful to know what abilities have what aggro multipliers, as our only clue/clues are from your post on page 13 of this thread, which has us guessing the tank passive increases aggro by 500% (5x) and all other abilities increasing aggro by 200% (2x).

    My brain is a bit fried, so I didn't even recall that it was you that originally reported the issue, but I do enjoy the irony. I did not implement the artifact bonuses myself so I will check tomorrow. I don't want to make any assertions without being sure. I'll also post full information about aggro multipliers for all tanks at some point in the future, as these are not values were are aiming to hide even if we currently are not displaying them.
  • xdruidgregxxdruidgregx Posts: 57Member Arc User
    asterdahl said:


    In reality, unless the damage transferred was massively reduced, KV could also cause the Vanguard to die nearly instantly in a huge number of situations.


    Solution is simple: built in failsafe, KV is turned off if guardian HP drops below certain level (lets say 20%)

    Other proposition: if u dont want to make KV party wide make it to affect party member with least %HP.
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 977Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited April 19
    asterdahl said:

    Knight's Valor offers inadequate party protection due to it's single target.
    Ran several preview dungeons in past 2 days using KV including CN, eToS, FBI, ToNG.


    There are many situations where holding aggro alone is not enough.
    Often the tank's whole-party damage mitigation is the key to survival.
    Examples:
    ToNG Withers Fight (2nd Boss)
    image
    FBI Dragon Turtle
    CODG Atropal Fight
    CR Strahd fight (between Strahd phases)

    In all of these fights, holding aggro is not enough.
    Red circles drop randomly, not based on aggro, on party members and can 1 shot them.
    Vanguard has NOTHING to protect them.
    KV applies randomly to nearest party member, whether they need protection or not.
    Everyone else is naked.
    It is useless in it's current form in these and most other fights.
    As it stands now I would not want a Vanguard tanking for me in these dungeons...
    that says alot as my main is a Vanguard!


    Solution:
    Return KV to whole-party protection at a reduced level (30%).
    That is not overpowered at all. People still need to dodge red or they will kill themselves and the tank.
    But making it whole-party will make the Vanguard somewhat useful to the party.

    Ty for the response and your efforts.
    You have listened to us on several problems and made many improvements.
    Aggro is much much better. Thanks.

    "Withers is an absolute mess on preview, and I sincerely apologize for that. We fixed him this week and those fixes will be in the launch build. .. Bosses are far more custom than general enemies, and vary greatly under the hood based on the designer that built them."
    Admitting mistakes is a sign of character and professionalism.
    It builds our trust.

    Thank you.
    But please explain: when you play Vanguard in the fights above. How do you protect your party without KV?
    I must be using Vanguard wrong. Please describe how you expect us to protect the party in the fights I mentioned?

    "I don't plan to changes KV to be party wide. That style of gameplay where the tank can absorb all of the party's damage taken is something we have intentionally moved away from."
    It was never "all of the party damage". It was a partial mitigation.
    And that new philosophy has contradictions in Mod 16.
    The SW healer has a power that functionally is the exact same as old KV.
    Maybe the SW team did not get that memo?

    "In reality, unless the damage transferred was massively reduced, KV could also cause the Vanguard to die nearly instantly in a huge number of situations."
    Respectfully, this "for your own protection" argument is spurious.
    KV was always a risk to the GF. The best pure tank GFs use KV anyway.
    Damage management is the heart of being a tank.
    It is a matter of great pride and a sign of skill for a GF to learn to manage damage through KV.
    Using KV was an intricate and calculated balance of build, shield timing, positioning, team communication...
    KV was beautiful. Not easy to use. Required skill.
    When I got my team to the top of that FBI hill climb alive, the KV banging and clanging all the way, I knew my GF was valuable to the team.


    I've put in over 100 hours on preview. 1-3 hours per day 6-7 days per week since release.
    I think that reasonably meets the definition of "giving it a chance".
    Not trolling you nor being a nay-sayer. I am desperate to retain my joy for this game.
    My joy is in tanking.

    The redundant tab.
    The nerf to shift shield.
    And the knife in my heart... the neutering of beloved KV...
    Please tell me where to find some joy.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • lowjohnlowjohn Posts: 1,010Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    gripnir78 said:

    wilbur626 said:

    > @pyc87 said:

    > What is a "QOL"?



    "Quality of life". In this case making things a little easier for the tank



    @gripnir78 Wouldn't adding the old threatening Rush mark to M16 enforced threat give almost the same effect?

    Of course, it would be even better then another number floating around, but it seems that they removed a Mark both as mechanic/debuff and as graphic... but sure,... yeah - wouldn't mind at all to get it back
    I understand the feedback that it is difficult to tell who has been hit by Enforced Threat. It's a fairly large area, but I will try to get a noticeable visual effect hooked up to targets that are hit by the effect. It won't be in at launch, but it will get done. It won't be the old mark icon, as I've described previously, Enforced Threat is not a continuing effect, but I will endeavor to make it easier to tell when you've hit an enemy.
    No chance of just adding some low-Magnitude (like, "10") damage? Instant visual effect + small extra AoE usefulness = obvious, easy solution to me. So there's gotta be a reason I don't see for why that's not a possibility.
  • manipulosmanipulos Posts: 235Member Arc User
    lowjohn said:

    asterdahl said:

    gripnir78 said:

    wilbur626 said:

    > @pyc87 said:

    > What is a "QOL"?



    "Quality of life". In this case making things a little easier for the tank



    @gripnir78 Wouldn't adding the old threatening Rush mark to M16 enforced threat give almost the same effect?

    Of course, it would be even better then another number floating around, but it seems that they removed a Mark both as mechanic/debuff and as graphic... but sure,... yeah - wouldn't mind at all to get it back
    I understand the feedback that it is difficult to tell who has been hit by Enforced Threat. It's a fairly large area, but I will try to get a noticeable visual effect hooked up to targets that are hit by the effect. It won't be in at launch, but it will get done. It won't be the old mark icon, as I've described previously, Enforced Threat is not a continuing effect, but I will endeavor to make it easier to tell when you've hit an enemy.
    No chance of just adding some low-Magnitude (like, "10") damage? Instant visual effect + small extra AoE usefulness = obvious, easy solution to me. So there's gotta be a reason I don't see for why that's not a possibility.
    @lowjohn I agree, in it's current state I don't even plan on using Enforced Threat. Sounds like they re-designed it to be training wheels for new tanks maybe? It doesn't make sense to use an ability that does no damage when my main source of threat is dealing damage.

  • manipulosmanipulos Posts: 235Member Arc User

    asterdahl said:

    Knight's Valor offers inadequate party protection due to it's single target.
    Ran several preview dungeons in past 2 days using KV including CN, eToS, FBI, ToNG.


    There are many situations where holding aggro alone is not enough.
    Often the tank's whole-party damage mitigation is the key to survival.
    Examples:
    ToNG Withers Fight (2nd Boss)
    image
    FBI Dragon Turtle
    CODG Atropal Fight
    CR Strahd fight (between Strahd phases)

    In all of these fights, holding aggro is not enough.
    Red circles drop randomly, not based on aggro, on party members and can 1 shot them.
    Vanguard has NOTHING to protect them.
    KV applies randomly to nearest party member, whether they need protection or not.
    Everyone else is naked.
    It is useless in it's current form in these and most other fights.
    As it stands now I would not want a Vanguard tanking for me in these dungeons...
    that says alot as my main is a Vanguard!


    Solution:
    Return KV to whole-party protection at a reduced level (30%).
    That is not overpowered at all. People still need to dodge red or they will kill themselves and the tank.
    But making it whole-party will make the Vanguard somewhat useful to the party.

    Ty for the response and your efforts.
    You have listened to us on several problems and made many improvements.
    Aggro is much much better. Thanks.

    "Withers is an absolute mess on preview, and I sincerely apologize for that. We fixed him this week and those fixes will be in the launch build. .. Bosses are far more custom than general enemies, and vary greatly under the hood based on the designer that built them."
    Admitting mistakes is a sign of character and professionalism.
    It builds our trust.

    Thank you.
    But please explain: when you play Vanguard in the fights above. How do you protect your party without KV?
    I must be using Vanguard wrong. Please describe how you expect us to protect the party in the fights I mentioned?

    "I don't plan to changes KV to be party wide. That style of gameplay where the tank can absorb all of the party's damage taken is something we have intentionally moved away from."
    It was never "all of the party damage". It was a partial mitigation.
    And that new philosophy has contradictions in Mod 16.
    The SW healer has a power that functionally is the exact same as old KV.
    Maybe the SW team did not get that memo?

    "In reality, unless the damage transferred was massively reduced, KV could also cause the Vanguard to die nearly instantly in a huge number of situations."
    Respectfully, this "for your own protection" argument is spurious.
    KV was always a risk to the GF. The best pure tank GFs use KV anyway.
    Damage management is the heart of being a tank.
    It is a matter of great pride and a sign of skill for a GF to learn to manage damage through KV.
    Using KV was an intricate and calculated balance of build, shield timing, positioning, team communication...
    KV was beautiful. Not easy to use. Required skill.
    When I got my team to the top of that FBI hill climb alive, the KV banging and clanging all the way, I knew my GF was valuable to the team.


    I've put in over 100 hours on preview. 1-3 hours per day 6-7 days per week since release.
    I think that reasonably meets the definition of "giving it a chance".
    Not trolling you nor being a nay-sayer. I am desperate to retain my joy for this game.
    My joy is in tanking.

    The redundant tab.
    The nerf to shift shield.
    And the knife in my heart... the neutering of beloved KV...
    Please tell me where to find some joy.
    @dread4moor I feel you bro! It's sad running as Vanguard on preview and missing all my favorite iconic abilities like Into The Fray (why dreadnought only?), Enforced Threat (no damage, not worth using), Knights Valor (such an awesome ability with great risk vs. reward that is now worthless). These were a big part of what made GF unique and my favorite class. Retaliate is cool, I hope that initial pause for dig-in will be sped up a bit, it just feels so slow right now.

    I was hoping that I could have some fun with the old Iron Vanguard abilities like Frontline Surge (can't remember what it's called now), but the magnitude is so low on it that it doesn't feel as satisfying to use. I do like having the threatening rush at-will back, that is handy for maneuvering since we move so slow now.
  • kranky#1106 kranky Posts: 10Member Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    For context, here is my preview Vanguard.
    image
    900 level gear, rank 14 defensive enchants
    330,000 HP
    Maxed all possible defensive Boons
    Not perfect, but certainly a solid tank build so far.

    Ran a few more T2s, tried shift shield and Tab Dig-In (version 2.0) in every conceivable tanking situation:
    Large packs of trash mobs
    Small packs of trash and a mini-boss
    Boss fights...
    Except for trash mobs (where I don't need to Turtle anyway) the reduced stamina shield gets smashed instantly...
    Mid-level bosses are 1-shotting me straight through the shift shield AND the Tab-Dig-IN.

    Here's an example. Lostmauth. Mid to low level dungeon.
    image
    Scorpions ganking me through shift AND tab 100% of the time.

    And check this combat log on the final fight:
    [Combat (Self)] Your Block absorbs 91968 damage from Molten Gold's Molten Gold.
    [Combat (Self)] Stalactite deals 143493 (371250) Physical Damage to you with Falling Stalactite.
    [Combat (Self)] Stalactite gives 0 Knockback to you with Falling Stalactite.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Not enough Action Points.
    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Amazia 1 gives 55588 (54232) Hit Points to you with Bastion of Health.
    [Combat (Self)] Not enough Action Points.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Amazia 1 gives 26007 (25373) Hit Points to you with Bastion of Health.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Sigil of the Cleric gives 590 (576) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Champion's Return gives 1885 (1839) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Amazia 1 gives 24397 (23802) Hit Points to you with Bastion of Health.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Sigil of the Cleric gives 590 (576) Hit Points to you.
    [Combat (Self)] Must have a target.
    [Combat (Self)] Still recharging...
    [Combat (Self)] Must have a target.
    [Combat (Self)] Still recharging...
    [Combat (Self)] Lostmauth deals 11178 (11698) Fire Damage to you with Fire Aura.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Block absorbs 91968 damage from Molten Gold's Molten Gold.
    [Combat (Self)] Molten Gold deals 2070206 Fire Damage to you with Molten Gold.
    [Error] You have fallen in battle!

    Note those damage numbers. 2 Million damage. Blasted through that 90k shield like it was paper.
    Shift shield failed instantly on every big hit.
    330K HP and endgame gear. Smashed like a bug over and over and over.
    I can't keep running away. It's my job to get in their face and keep smacking to keep aggro (which is better now... thanks?)

    And Dig-In was worse. It absorbed a bit more damage then shift, but I have to squat unmoving in the middle of concentric red circles knowing the next hit will kill me.
    With shift-shield at least I can try to strafe into better position.

    @asterdahl , not asking for permashield or an easy button.
    I'm really, really trying to give this a chance.
    Spent 8 hours on preview trying to figure it out.
    A tank must be mobile. A shield must be able to withstand a few big hits.
    If my tank, (in all modesty) far from the weakest in the game cannot stand up to a low tier boss, how will all the newer tanks survive?
    I am beyond frustrated.
    Please, please explain how we are supposed to use this 50% shield and statue-of-liberty-pose Tab when bosses smash them with ease?

    Certainly dig-in is not made for situations where a lot of dodging is required, however, it seems clear that there are some problems with enemy damage going on in Lair of Lostmauth. I believe some of these issues may have already been resolved, but I will double check those values tomorrow. You shouldn't be taking such big hits in general, but especially not on a well geared character, even with scaling in place.
    well i can tell you it is not just lostmouth me and some friends went to test new mod i have a fighter all lvl 80 stuff new weapons new artifact sets all m,axed enchants/companions/leg mount ect ect i literally have best stuff you can get (except end dungeons gear) 20k itl and no matter what i do i get crushed CN/valindras/malabrogs/lostmauth ect only place we succeeded in doing was master of the hunt and shores of turen..... idk about anyone else but at lvl 80 with all this top gear and i cannot make it thru dungeons i currently can tank np (up to CN i do it daily with no deaths) and now cannot even make it to first boss???????
    ridiculous if your goal is to make the game more like a job or seriously hard work just to run basic places i hope you have a nice funding resourcew to keep it going otherwise best to stop waisting money on a game ppl will not play as it is a GAME we want to see we can go forward not have to start over and do much less with way better gear....

  • kranky#1106 kranky Posts: 10Member Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    Knight's Valor offers inadequate party protection due to it's single target.
    Ran several preview dungeons in past 2 days using KV including CN, eToS, FBI, ToNG.


    There are many situations where holding aggro alone is not enough.
    Often the tank's whole-party damage mitigation is the key to survival.
    Examples:
    ToNG Withers Fight (2nd Boss)
    image
    FBI Dragon Turtle
    CODG Atropal Fight
    CR Strahd fight (between Strahd phases)

    In all of these fights, holding aggro is not enough.
    Red circles drop randomly, not based on aggro, on party members and can 1 shot them.
    Vanguard has NOTHING to protect them.
    KV applies randomly to nearest party member, whether they need protection or not.
    Everyone else is naked.
    It is useless in it's current form in these and most other fights.
    As it stands now I would not want a Vanguard tanking for me in these dungeons...
    that says alot as my main is a Vanguard!


    Solution:
    Return KV to whole-party protection at a reduced level (30%).
    That is not overpowered at all. People still need to dodge red or they will kill themselves and the tank.
    But making it whole-party will make the Vanguard somewhat useful to the party.

    Withers is an absolute mess on preview, and I sincerely apologize for that. We fixed him this week and those fixes will be in the launch build. Grasping hands is used far less often, all bigby's hands attacks deal significantly less damage, as do the flame jets along the top. I built most of the boss encounters beginning with Fangbreaker Island up through Castle Ravenloft, but a handful of bosses were created by other designers. Bosses are far more custom than general enemies, and vary greatly under the hood based on the designer that built them. In the case of Withers, that designer is no longer on the team, so it took us a little bit longer to resolve the issues that arose as a result of Module 16's changes with certain bosses.

    I don't plan to changes KV to be party wide. That style of gameplay where the tank can absorb all of the party's damage taken is something we have intentionally moved away from. In reality, unless the damage transferred was massively reduced, KV could also cause the Vanguard to die nearly instantly in a huge number of situations.

    However, I do absolutely understand your frustration with fights where you can't seem to do your job correctly, and I assure you those like Withers are absolutely bugged, so please continue to send in those reports.


    funny i think we as players do our best its the devs that didnt get it right we have higher gear stronger items in mod 16 // like double health now and still cannot survive basic dungeons. where on live we actually can survive and protect full party take tons of hits and still get it done... we didnt ask for this joke of a mod it is being forced on us so i have to think we are doing our job correctly by voicing our dislike but can cryptic devs say the same ??? when they are going to force everyone to start over and not be able to do half of what they can now making game less enjoyable and more frustrating???
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User

    funny I think we as players do our best its the devs that didnt get it right we have higher gear stronger items in mod 16 // like double health now and still cannot survive basic dungeons. where on live we actually can survive and protect full party take tons of hits and still get it done... we didnt ask for this joke of a mod it is being forced on us so i have to think we are doing our job correctly by voicing our dislike but can cryptic devs say the same ??? when they are going to force everyone to start over and not be able to do half of what they can now making game less enjoyable and more frustrating???

    You are conflating several points.

    Firstly, the mechanics of some encounters in dungeons are broken - as Asterdahl just admitted in this thread. (Though I admit it’s frustrating to see the Scorpions get acknowledged here despite being reported in the Unexpected Deaths thread 2 weeks ago)

    Secondly they want party content to need Tanks. That is a good goal for fighters and barbarians, it doubles their usefulness and gives their players more options. But making party content need tanks means it needs to be harder than it is in Mod 15.

    Thirdly they want party content to need Heals. Good for Paladins, Warlocks and Clerics. But making party content need heals means making sure the tank cannot eat all the damage and keep going. Paladins got beaten with that nerf stick far more than Fighters by the by.

    Considering all these points addresses your concerns, unless you want tanking and heals to remain irrelevant as they are in 15.

    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 977Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I can't tell if anything else has changed.
    image
    Nothing obvious in the Character sheet descriptions that I can see.
    Not much changed in combat (other then broken block-jab/bash).
    Shift-Block seems unchanged.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Block absorbs 38788 damage from Glabrezu's Pincer Left.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Block absorbs 28564 damage from Barlgura's Bash.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Block absorbs 10288 damage from Shadow Demon's Claw.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Block absorbs 37977 damage from Glabrezu's Pincer.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Block absorbs 19530 damage from Shadow Demon's Claw.

    Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Barlgura deals 35389 (50535) Fire Damage to you with Phantasmal Force.

    CN scaled me from 350K HP down to ~275K HP.
    So the shield failed at ~ 50% of my HP. It appears unchanged (sadly).
    image
    Dig in appears unchanged.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Dig In absorbs 0 damage from Glabrezu's Power Word Stun.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Dig In absorbs 62879 damage from Glabrezu's Power Word Stun.
    [Combat (Self)] Glabrezu gives 0 Hold to you with Power Word Stun.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Dig In absorbs 0 damage from Shadow Demon's Claw.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Dig In absorbs 20316 damage from Shadow Demon's Claw.


    Retaliate is still working as advertised:
    [Combat (Self)] Your Retaliate deals 9406 (29421) Physical Damage to Shadow Demon.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Lightning Weapon deals 423 (1324) Lightning Damage to Shadow Demon.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Retaliate deals 16729 (26162) Physical Damage to Barlgura.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Lightning Weapon deals 753 (1177) Lightning Damage to Barlgura.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Retaliate deals 8812 (27562) Physical Damage to Barlgura.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Lightning Weapon deals 397 (1240) Lightning Damage to Barlgura.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Retaliate deals 19890 (31107) Physical Damage to Glabrezu.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Lightning Weapon deals 895 (1400) Lightning Damage to Glabrezu.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Retaliate deals 19877 (31086) Physical Damage to Glabrezu.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Lightning Weapon deals 894 (1399) Lightning Damage to Glabrezu.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Retaliate deals 19264 (30127) Physical Damage to Shadow Demon.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Lightning Weapon deals 867 (1356) Lightning Damage to Shadow Demon.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Lightning Arc deals 163 (254) Lightning Damage to Glabrezu.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Lightning Arc deals 98 (306) Lightning Damage to Glabrezu.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Lightning Arc deals 96 (302) Lightning Damage to Barlgura.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Lightning Arc deals 190 (297) Lightning Damage to Barlgura.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Lightning Arc deals 171 (268) Lightning Damage to Barlgura.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Lightning Arc deals 176 (275) Lightning Damage to Glabrezu.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Lightning Arc deals 85 (266) Lightning Damage to Shadow Demon.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Lightning Arc deals 81 (255) Lightning Damage to Shadow Demon.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Lightning Arc deals 82 (257) Lightning Damage to Shadow Demon.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Lightning Arc deals 93 (290) Lightning Damage to Glabrezu.

    BTW, it is good to see weapon enchants work with retaliation.
    That certainly adds to the threat dispersal.
    To be fair to @asterdahl , you did listen to our complaints about the threat issues with Vanguard and you did deliver.
    Vanguard can indeed hold threat with these changes.
    It's like night and day compared to the start of open preview.
    Thank you for that.


    Not sure what else has changed.

    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • dolreydolrey Posts: 605Member Arc User

    After last patch on NeverwinterPreview server GF can't strike while using his shield on shift key. As you can see at the first screenshot below my character block incoming attacks but my usual at-wills are still slotted instead of proper at-wills previously used while blocking.



  • dolreydolrey Posts: 605Member Arc User
    edited April 20

    [Dig in] by unknown reasons sometimes does not interrupt its effect when player turn off it. At the screenshot you can see that visual effect still exist. Also I still can moove or attack during this bug (just all incoming attacks will be automatically blocked as if [Dig in] is active).

    This bug appeared in previous versions (about b0/b3).



    Post edited by dolrey on

  • tyfud#3254 tyfud Posts: 24Member Arc User
    I can confirm all of the bugs that RJC has mentioned. Tested on Preview the last few hours.

    Additionally, I believe that the negation DR bonus is limited by the 50% DR cap and does not appear to allow you to go over. The tooltip still shows the wrong amount: .02% instead of 2% per stack.

  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 977Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    > @tyfud#3254 said:
    > I can confirm all of the bugs that RJC has mentioned. Tested on Preview the last few hours.
    >
    > Additionally, I believe that the negation DR bonus is limited by the 50% DR cap and does not appear to allow you to go over. The tooltip still shows the wrong amount: .02% instead of 2% per stack.

    INegation is even more broken than that.
    See the bug section.
    I posted the detailed test in Bugs.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
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