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Driftwood Tavern Questions Follow-up - April 16

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  • martelis1981martelis1981 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 120 Arc User


    So i guess some of your suit guys told you, you have to write this...versy sad.

    I wouldn't be surprised, if they ruined their own game it's very likely that the same thing will happen with NW, just look at the pile of dead games in their catalog.

  • picar66picar66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 118 Arc User
    The wrong scaling target and the so called "outliers" each dungeon is having lets you not play anymore.
    no dungeon = no astraldiamonds.
    no astaldiamond= no progress.
    But even with astraldiamond, progress is irrelevant cause of wrong scaling target.

    When you read all that feedback, you can imagine why we are talking this is to be the most game breaking issue.


    And most player give you 1-2 days for fixing it or leave (that is the duration they need to be lvl 80 with all toons).

    I read in all feedback threads the last dev notes, sound almost "that we are knowing or that we are looking at and may be can be fixed later". I think there is no later exept you wrote in the beginning of mod16 change notes
    "Here we are,
    this is the new alpha release of neverwinter,
    we know that there are many bugs in, and we monitor them, may be we fix them LATER"
  • hawkeyelhawkeyel Member Posts: 389 Arc User
    I have been following this mod. very closely.And while I could type my fingers off . I want. I have just one primary concern at this point and that is level scaling.Progression and the feeling of out growing areas in the game are how most gamer's mark progress.This game is removing that feeling.So with level scaling I am very sure that they shall live to regret that decision.I shall adapt with the other problems as many shall. But wasting time forever on scaling ,while not doing near enough on balance between the classes. I see a train wreck heading our way.I might be looking back at Mod.6 as the good old days.Good Hunting.
  • drakkon5drakkon5 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 43 Arc User
    mike31584 said:

    this is the only game ive played in a long time where scaling means nerfing the player. how much more sense would it make if the enemies scaled to your level, not your item level. then everywhere you go youll have the same difficulty and there is still a benefit to building your character up threw item level so that even though your the same level most of the enemies your item level lets you overpower them. its a simple concept but for some reason its lost when games are developed in a bubble.

    ^This is a really good IDEA... I Like it!
  • robertthebardrobertthebard Member Posts: 543 Arc User
    mike31584 said:

    this is the only game ive played in a long time where scaling means nerfing the player. how much more sense would it make if the enemies scaled to your level, not your item level. then everywhere you go youll have the same difficulty and there is still a benefit to building your character up threw item level so that even though your the same level most of the enemies your item level lets you overpower them. its a simple concept but for some reason its lost when games are developed in a bubble.

    You don't play many MMOs? Here's a chart topper for you that does exactly what you claim doesn't happen: GW 2.
    Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
  • hawkeyelhawkeyel Member Posts: 389 Arc User
    mike31584 said:

    this is the only game ive played in a long time where scaling means nerfing the player. how much more sense would it make if the enemies scaled to your level, not your item level. then everywhere you go youll have the same difficulty and there is still a benefit to building your character up threw item level so that even though your the same level most of the enemies your item level lets you overpower them. its a simple concept but for some reason its lost when games are developed in a bubble.

    I remember when they made some things that higher level players had to go and do in lower level zones. What would happen is that a higher level player would go and start that fight and a normal level player in that zone would see that fight and run over and try and help .To only find out that they was standing in the middle of a murder. Zone scaling in this game is a very bad idea being each zone is set up for a set level toon to be doing it . If they want to scale a dungeon fine but for zone play they need to leave that as it is.
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User

    The cruel fate that awaits us.

    In Mod 15, we were bringing lowbies on runs to help them.
    In Mod 16, I'll be begging a lowbie to bring me along.

    I'm also going to just add that I already refrained from pugging random queues often because, well, they suck. I can get AD in other ways. But now I'll pretty much avoid anything not new content like the plague. Challenge quest rewards aren't worth this HAMSTER.

    its ok, cloak tower will still be doable
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • robertthebardrobertthebard Member Posts: 543 Arc User
    lowjohn said:


    Upon returning, I found that I had a bunch of "lowbie" content that I had to run for the campaign log, for some reason I hadn't done the dungeon in the Cloak Tower region, as one example. When I went in, I was scaled down to level 12, from 60+. So I'm a bit confused as to how this scaling mechanic can be seen as new? It seems to me that, based on this experience alone, it has always been here? I left because the game was over the top easy. If this is going to fix that, then "Yay". I can't tell, from reading the posts, if this is just salt, or if it's really bad. If it turns out to be really bad, then I'll just move along again. But really, since I've not been anywhere near the current endgame, I'm in "wait and see" mode.

    There *has been* scaling in the past, except:
    1) It's been a percentage scaling, so progress in your gear means progress in scaled content. If my stats in level 12 content are 10% of my stats in L70 content, then adding 1000 Power at L70 will still add 100 Power at L12.
    2) It hasn't applied to endgame content.

    (It also hasn't been effective - scaled down characters have always been WAY too strong - but that's not a point in its favour)

    The reasons people are complaining about the new scaling are:
    1) It's a flat hard cap. If you're at the cap or triple the cap it doesn't matter, your scaled stats are the same. So adding power to your character doesn't matter, in scaled content
    2) The scaling cap is extremely low. In the current highest-level and most-difficult content in the game, Mod 14 (Ravenloft/Barovia/Castle Ravenloft), the cap is set to one rank above the free gear you get for reaching level 70. In ~75% of all endgame content in the game, the free set every character receives when they reach level 70 is enough to put you over the hard gear cap.
    3) all content in the game, except for the new solo levelling area, is scaled. In a few weeks they will add a single queue that will not be scaled, but it's only that one queue and it will not be available with Mod16 launch.

    So what's happening is, every single player who reaches level 70 has a full set of Mod14 blue equipment, Mod14 artifact weapons, and Rank 8 enchantments in every single gem slot. And with this level scaling, the cap on gear for all characters in everywhere except the new levelling zone is Mod 14 purple equipment and Rank 9 enchantments. In ~75% of the game, it's "somewhere under Mod14 blue equipment and Rank 8 enchantments".

    So the person with months or years of progress and IL 550+ gear and Rank 14 enchantments? In *almost all* of the game their gear is effectively identical to the 3-day-old fresh L70 character. In a very few zones their gear is effectively identical to the few-week-old L70 character who's made a single upgrade.

    So: All progress after the first initial upgrade is lost, in all content except the new levelling zone. All gear progress at all is lost in all content except the new levelling zone and one or two of the previous zones. This is why people who've made more than the first initial upgrade step are saying that all their progress has been wiped out and that future progress is not possible.
    Thanks for going into detail, but I'm still struggling with "salt" or "really that bad", especially reading some of the justifications for "really that bad". I do know that, scaled to 12, they may as well have not bothered with scaling, because I still went through it solo on a Trickster Rogue that's probably no where near optimized even for at level content, with no issues at all, and I haven't played in years, literally.
    Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
  • lardesonlardeson Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    mike31584 said:

    this is the only game ive played in a long time where scaling means nerfing the player. how much more sense would it make if the enemies scaled to your level, not your item level. then everywhere you go youll have the same difficulty and there is still a benefit to building your character up threw item level so that even though your the same level most of the enemies your item level lets you overpower them. its a simple concept but for some reason its lost when games are developed in a bubble.

    sounds nice on paper, but if you look at it from the other point, when in a party with lowbies, what happens? the highest IL is most likely gnna be selected, not to mention that these games make it more difficult when in group than soloing, so the adds are gonna be alot more challenging. All the need to do is scale dungeons without a cap, but a % and leave zones alone, me being level 9999 and going back to tower district, should in no way affect any other player's gameplay unless someone wants to be carried, which is why you work on progress to begin with, to have advantage over areas u had difficulties with and be able to make new players life easier if they ask for ur help. Zone scaling NO, dungeon scaling well done? yes
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
  • dantrancemasterdantrancemaster Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4 Arc User
    Mod16 most be a April's fool joke, I just saw my lvl80 barbarian with 4x more defensive and 3x more offensive stats than mod15 take 120k hits from stupid mobs while hitting for 10k at-wills (22k crit)
  • mdarkangel#4696 mdarkangel Member Posts: 442 Arc User
    Every enemy in the mob used their daily at the same time. They know their rotation and they have synergy. B)
  • robertthebardrobertthebard Member Posts: 543 Arc User

    Every enemy in the mob used their daily at the same time. They know their rotation and they have synergy. B)

    That's a scary thought...
    Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
  • cherryman1cherryman1 Member Posts: 341 Arc User


    Thanks for going into detail, but I'm still struggling with "salt" or "really that bad", especially reading some of the justifications for "really that bad". I do know that, scaled to 12, they may as well have not bothered with scaling, because I still went through it solo on a Trickster Rogue that's probably no where near optimized even for at level content, with no issues at all, and I haven't played in years, literally.

    The way it looks to be working is that what they have done is both a negative for end game players as well as new and mid game players that want to achieve or improve themselves. The entire point of an MMO is to improve to be able to do harder content. What they just did was make it so that a player who puts 12 to 20 hours into the game will get veteran status immediately when they get the end game gear for completing the newest mod in the game. When you get that gear your 80% as effective in combat in the 1 end game dungeon and zone as the rest of the veterans. You are also going to scale to the early game zones and be effectively even to a end game player in terms of what your character is capable in doing as you will have the same stats. From the point a new player gets to this point through the rest of the game there isn't anything you can do to improve how well you perform in 95% of the content of the game. This means you will be shunned in the sole end game dungeons because you don't perform as well. Then you will have a very hard time in all early game content that will take you 2x to 5x as much time to complete the early game content that usually takes a player now 8 months to 12 months to complete to get to those nice end game stats. This will now translate to 1.5 to 4 years of grind for a player to get to best in slot by completing all of the earlier game content while not seeing any progression in how their character performs in game. In other words, you will never progress for such a long time in the game as a new player or see your progression because all of the content and how well you perform is now based on how well you play your character and not the stats or progression you have done in the game. This will drive away all players who want to achieve something since there isn't anything to achieve. The veterans who have run through all the content don't like it since they know what the scaling means for them and after they wear out the only dungeon they can run that allows to perform at their greatest, they will leave and either take a brake from the game or never come back.

    I don't think players will have issue with being scaled down in lower content if it is done in a nice format. The scaling needs to take into consideration that a player MUST see progression to want to stay in the game. If you don't allow that player to improve and they have to come in an run a hours worth of zone quests that are the same each day... How long will that player stay in the game. Especially since all of the stat changes now make for each upgrade to a boon to give about .2% of a difference in stats for what amounts to 40+ hours of in game play. The alternative to this is to get a 3% bonus to stats for 100 dollars to replace about 800+ hours of in game grind.

    Some of the stats will have some variance but that is what scaling means in the next mod in this game. I don't support this change to the game as a guild leader who has both new and veteran players to look out for.
    Guild Leader: Under the Influence
    Yule (Barb): 55k : Siren (TR): 60k : Torun (DC): 54k : Siren OP (OP): 59k : Siren SW (SW): 54k : Modern (F): 62k : Cherry1 (CW) : 48k Siren HR (HR): 54k
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,318 Arc User
    edited April 2019

    I see all the naysayers basically are veteran players that are not very representative for the experience if the less developed players. And yes, I do agree.. being reduced to average performance in many of the game areas with no benefits from good gear sucks.

    But again.. Cryptic probably cares most about the casual people that lands in the game 3-4 months, puts down some money and leaves. That is where their income is, not from old veterans.

    And the current situation is not good for the up and coming people. There is a need for the old players to participate in old content to fill up parties fast, but old players cannot be allowed to smash through the content as they do today as that seriously diminishes the play experience for the new people.

    So the obvious answer is to reduce the power of the old players. I don't like it, but I do see the rationale behind it, and that rationale is that new and up and coming players are more important to Cryptic than old players. Income > all.

    Those same players your talking about will be scaled down within 12 to 18 hours of playing the game. They will get the same veteran scaling as a player that has played for 6 years. The other thing is if that content is too hard for them to complete on their own they will have to either find another person to do them with or leave the game. Most will take the second pill. If it is true that is their bread and butter group in terms of money...
    Ugh. I can see it now. "Thia!!! I need help in (insert scaled zone here)!" In mod 9 it was "Thia!!! I need help in Fiery Pit!"

    And, as the guild leader, I'm duty-bound to help if no one else is available. I couldn't count the number of times I've had to ride shotgun in Fiery Pit with my defense-to-the-maximum-all-else-be-damned HR. Not that I don't want to help guildies, but when it's a never-ending train because EVERYONE is getting stomped into unrecognizable red stains on the floor it means that I can't accomplish much else.

    @noworries#8859 @mimicking#6533 We don't need this level of grief. My second-in-command is already on hiatus playing XCOM 2, and he's been here as long as I have (mod 2). He stuck through the bad old days of Mod 6 when we were down to 4 people and discussed shutting the guild down (and this was Kaelac's guild!) That's how poorly this is perceived.
    manipulos said:

    Your best source of new business is old business

    Happy customers will:
    - spend more money
    - bring you new customers through "word of mouth"
    - provide you with free advertising (think streamers etc.)
    - sometimes pay a little more than they would for the same product from a competitor
    - etc.

    Your tunnel vision of supporting new players at the expense of current players is not a good long term strategy.

    Let me put it this way. I'm 49 (ugh! As if I want to remember that fact). I'll be 61 when my VIP finally runs out. Give me something worthwhile to spend my money on and I'm open to it.

    As far as what else I've spent money on, the biggest one is easy -- the Stronghold. I try not to think of how much I've spent on zen so I can turn it into AD to buy influence vouchers from the AH. It has to be many thousands of dollars. I do it to spare guildies the soul-crushing grind for costs that go up exponentially the higher we level up.
    Post edited by hustin1 on
    Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X
    Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
    Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
    Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
    The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,318 Arc User

    Wouldn't work. As soon as a higher level character stepped into an area all the monsters become that character's level. Now the lower level character that's actually there trying to finish quests has no chance at killing the now outrageously overpowered monsters.

    Actually, the game does this in a lot of the CTA's. Instead of a level number, the monsters show a little red skull where the level would be. The damage they do and the damage they take depends on the particular player involved.
    Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X
    Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
    Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
    Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
    The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
  • morgulknifemorgulknife Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    ICEBERG AHEAD!!!! and no lifeboats on board...I sincerely hope the ship's crew goes down with this ship....The ice has been banging against the hull for months and the passengers can see what's coming... Why are the crew so blind?
  • lowjohnlowjohn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User

    Every enemy in the mob used their daily at the same time. They know their rotation and they have synergy. B)

    Could be worse, could be like the Chultan Lions on release. 3 unblockable unreduceable stuns, in sequence, one after another, with the first one recharging 1sec after the third one wears off.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    I guess we just need to concede that 28 pages of feedback on Stats and Mechanics largely focussed on scaling didn’t affect anything, so nothing we say here at this late stage will either.

    For those who don’t understand the problem:


    Gear doesn’t change in any of these pictures, just level.

    If you improve your gear, once you exceed level 70 you get scaled. So if you get the stuff from Neverwinter you are given at the start of Undermountain, and keep the Rank 8 Enchants and have nothing better than Rank 9 on the toon, just progressing through the campaign and picking up the green drops will result in you being scaled down. You will still have a character with worse gear than my one in the picture above and not be viable for mSP, ToNG etc, but you will still be scaled.

    If the dungeons are correctly rebalanced to work with the scaling caps it can work.

    But right now that’s not the case for all the dungeons.

    So if it’s not fixed this weekend it’s going live in that state.

    And it’s Mod 6 take 2.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,318 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    We should stop calling it "scaling". Scaling implies that a conversion ratio is involved somewhere. This is capping and is simply asinine. As for getting weaker the second we hit level 71, we saw this nonsense when we first went from 60 to 61. I'm wondering if the designer of Mod 6 somehow got his nose under the tent rather than being banished to some random level of the Abyss.
    Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X
    Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
    Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
    Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
    The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
  • rev#7881 rev Member Posts: 343 Arc User
    I'm still amazed on how people actually think that our opinion matters to them...
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    adinosii said:

    I am not going to repeat what I have said before, but I will make a set of predictions.



    1) What we now have on Preview will go live.



    2) There will be a massive outcry, in particular from those not active on the forums.



    3) Player number and Zen sales will drop and new players will not compensate.



    4) In June we will get a fix, but the number of active players will have dropped by 25%.


    to point four.. or more.

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