I wasnt going to comment, but now you devs have totaly lost your marbles and i had to chip in. So "While we understand some players have concerns over scaling, we believe it is in an overall pretty good place."
Uuuuhmm? what? are you people serious ? wait no, this can't be real, maybe i'm drunk? maybe i'm hallucinating? Actually no, i totaly am use to these kind of posts from devs and cryptic managers, totaly thinking everthing is bright eyed and bushy tailed when the exact opposite is happening . I find it utterly annoying and arrogant that even though all of us are against these changes, we are screaming don't do this or you will regret it like you once did, that you just keep moving forward and disregarding every good point made but everyone in this foum section, first time ive ever seen everyone on the same page, and i mean EVERYONE. Nice one guys, am proud
So back to business. What part of scalling us down is bad eludes you guys ? what part of progression does not exist anymore are you not understanding? do you not see that all comments are negative? and i mean all of them. You have turned the game we enjoyed into a dumbed down version of its former self, no skill needed, no grinding needed. No rewards ever, no fixes ever ( and dont tell me you patched and fixed things because fbi got fixed 2 years later recently, and msp still bugged, and many many more ) so forgive us if we dont believe you will fix anything , like ever.
Why would we believe it, the past and present clearly shows us you never listen. Even now, this very moment that you ( ya you no worries and devs) are reading this, you don't care, if you did you come up with some sort of solution to satisfy some of the communities wants.
Oh is it just about the new players? out with the old in with the new kinda mentality ? Well Good companies want new customers, but value the veteran customers, and make sure to keep them happy, remeber the veterans are the ones helping the new , making youtube vids, streaming, making guides and even freely advertising your game ( which i might add here you dont even recognize content creators or give any spot lights or even mention some sort of partnerships like you use to for a short period) , i dont care about it, just making the point of how you dont care about us at all. all end gamers are expendable.
I totaly agree with mickeypoo, the fabricant and many otherS that posted prior to mine.
Personaly i am very in how you guys handle your community, and how you ruined the game we grew to love.
i had hope but i lost all of my hopes today.
We have a saying in greece '' knock on a deaf mans door all you want, he still won't hear you''
Yes, scaling is implemented as a cap system. This means a cap is put in place on what the item level for a piece of gear can be in a given piece of scaled content. This does mean a level 70 and level 80 can be experiencing the same difficulty in a piece of scaled content.
With a proper cap system these 2 characters would have the same capped stats in Barovia or not be capped at all, but no, you have some strange scaling mechanic that just doesn't work to give players who have completed all the existing content any feeling of accomplishment when they go back to the old zones.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I see all the naysayers basically are veteran players that are not very representative for the experience if the less developed players. And yes, I do agree.. being reduced to average performance in many of the game areas with no benefits from good gear sucks.
But again.. Cryptic probably cares most about the casual people that lands in the game 3-4 months, puts down some money and leaves. That is where their income is, not from old veterans.
And the current situation is not good for the up and coming people. There is a need for the old players to participate in old content to fill up parties fast, but old players cannot be allowed to smash through the content as they do today as that seriously diminishes the play experience for the new people.
So the obvious answer is to reduce the power of the old players. I don't like it, but I do see the rationale behind it, and that rationale is that new and up and coming players are more important to Cryptic than old players. Income > all.
You like @noworries#8859 are making the erroneous assumption that experienced players do not understand these needs.
You and noworries don’t even seem to understand that this same scaling that experienced players are being affected by (crippled in dungeons) is going to affect new players. New players can get to 80 in a week. At 80 they will be unable to complete level 70 content, because of the scaling.
If they are the main revenue stream as you propose (& I agree), that will dry up as well.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
hunt gear is going to be obsolete after one level in. all the gear is.
Except it's not. Your level 70 weapons and sets are *better* than your L80 weapons and sets in scaled content, and scaled content is "literally everything except Lair Of The Mad Mage".
Scaling IS broken. This level of scaling is too much. You can level from 70-80 in a few days, those campaigns take months to complete. So the development's response to characters out leveling the 70 campaigns is "tough luck"? It sounds like you want people to slowly progress through campaigns (about what 6-8 of them)? Then why wouldn't you drag out the 70-80 progress over all 10 campaigns instead of making it so brief then saying "oh that gear you have now is too strong"? This is a major fumble by the thinking heads up there man.
Do you expect new players to level undermountain only and focus on undermountain only? Getting Master Boons is the new endgame. Which means vets and new players will have a different experience. Vets will have boons going into Undermountain. Recruits will have to wait until they've grinded out the better level 80 gear at this level of scaling.
Except it's not. Your level 70 weapons and sets are *better* than your L80 weapons and sets in scaled content, and scaled content is "literally everything except Lair Of The Mad Mage".
Except that gets scaled as well....because its better than the Vistani stuff they are using as the standard!
I have shown this previously when I went up from 70 to 71 and stats were scaled down with no changes other than level.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Except it's not. Your level 70 weapons and sets are *better* than your L80 weapons and sets in scaled content, and scaled content is "literally everything except Lair Of The Mad Mage".
Except that gets scaled as well....because its better than the Vistani stuff they are using as the standard!
I have shown this previously when I went up from 70 to 71 and stats were scaled down with no changes other than level.
But the set bonuses on the lower stuff are better - Primal's +10% damage, Masterwork's stacking +2% to the entire party... in the lower stuff like VT and eToS and IWD, when you're scaled down to Mod 8 ILs, even things like Drowned can come in handy.
As long as you're effectively using L65 weapons *no matter* what weapons you're using, suddenly the old set bonuses are potentially competitive.
@lowjohn I understand what you are trying to say, but...
This is the same character in the same gear in 2 places where their gear should be the same:
The IWD zone stats are the same stats you get in DR, Well, and IWD.
The KR stats are the same stats you get in SoT, KR, MC, VT and LoL.
Its not a matter of going back and using the old gear for bonuses. Even if you have Hunt gear (not what I had equipped for those 2 stat blocks) it gets scaled down, not because your gear changes, but because your LEVEL changes.
I have played through multiple times tracking my stats by not changing my gear and observed the same trend, once you hit the mysterious cap, generated by your level vs the zone you are entering your gear is locked at that cap. If it was based purely on your gear, and level played no part, if you were not being scaled at level 70, you should not be scaled at level 71 for the same gear. But you are.
But sure, scaling is working, no worries.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
5
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Do you expect new players to level undermountain only and focus on undermountain only?
That is exactly what some "veterans" (including myself) intend to do.
Having said that, I tried running around some lower-level open areas like IWD as well as instanced content (Dread Ring lairs, Biggrin's Tomb etc) and it is quite OK, although I am scaled down.
What I haven't really tried is the group content like ToNG or CR - is that so much worse ?
Hoping for improvements...
0
fabioramoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12Arc User
Scaling in a pretty good place, no new class, no new race, enchantment bound... I'm out!
4
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Scaling in a pretty good place, no new class, no new race, enchantment bound... I'm out!
To be fair, we have known since last year that this Mod would not bring a new class (but we might get one in Mod 17 or 18), and as for bound enchantments, that's only if you chose to use the exchange vendor, and nobody is forcing you to do that.
As for "scaling in a good place", well.....
Hoping for improvements...
4
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> @adinosii said: > Do you expect new players to level undermountain only and focus on undermountain only? > > That is exactly what some "veterans" (including myself) intend to do. > > > What I haven't really tried is the group content like ToNG or CR - is that so much worse ?
I've tried ToNG many times (5 or 6) w 19-22k parties on preview. Including that run @lordpanich mentioned above. He is correct. Major scaling problems. Withers is ridiculously upscaled. 1-hits everything. It is unplayable.
I too plan on hiding in Undermountain, completing the campaign, level, get gear, then rinse and repeat with an alt until the level of my disgust reaches the "Frak this. I'm out." threshold.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
hunt gear is going to be obsolete after one level in. all the gear is.
Except it's not. Your level 70 weapons and sets are *better* than your L80 weapons and sets in scaled content, and scaled content is "literally everything except Lair Of The Mad Mage".
only if you ARE level 70. if you're level 80 the stats on that level 70 gera will still be scaled down but it will be less stats than the level 80 gear. basically the only way to profit here is if you can put a lock on your toon never going past level 70 and it's way too easy to levle up now
> @skrewfaz3d#1482 said: > > > Getting Master Boons is the new endgame. Which means vets and new players will have a different experience. > Did the Master Boons get redone recently, because when I looked early on, they were laughable.
Regardless, with the scaling as it is and old content not offering any new rewards, I plan on doing the new questline on a few characters and never venturing into the scaled zones. Hopefully, in time this idea will be reworked.
Grind with no reward isn't going to keep the game afloat.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
I see all the naysayers basically are veteran players that are not very representative for the experience if the less developed players. And yes, I do agree.. being reduced to average performance in many of the game areas with no benefits from good gear sucks.
But again.. Cryptic probably cares most about the casual people that lands in the game 3-4 months, puts down some money and leaves. That is where their income is, not from old veterans.
And the current situation is not good for the up and coming people. There is a need for the old players to participate in old content to fill up parties fast, but old players cannot be allowed to smash through the content as they do today as that seriously diminishes the play experience for the new people.
So the obvious answer is to reduce the power of the old players. I don't like it, but I do see the rationale behind it, and that rationale is that new and up and coming players are more important to Cryptic than old players. Income > all.
Those same players your talking about will be scaled down within 12 to 18 hours of playing the game. They will get the same veteran scaling as a player that has played for 6 years. The other thing is if that content is too hard for them to complete on their own they will have to either find another person to do them with or leave the game. Most will take the second pill. If it is true that is their bread and butter group in terms of money...
Guild Leader: Under the Influence Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
Scaling is broken somewhere, it's far easier to clear things that are your level or even bit higher, than when you are scaled down. Even as level 50 (with gear mostly from quests & drops) scaled to 15 (started late the Acquisition quests and was scaled down) was almost one-shoot by some basic NPC's, and had to be careful like they were some extreme boss content, until quest level got closer to my level. My damage was fine (or too high sometimes), but sustain (health, defense and so on) way too low, as in broken. Lower level content will be ignored if these work like this: it's way more difficult & the loot/reward is also worse (at least the under lvl 50 content)
So I'm really torn on what to believe here, because frankly, I've seen this argument before, in other places, where it was absolutely right, this just recently in fact, and a reason that I'm back here now, and where it was "much ado about nothing".
Upon returning, I found that I had a bunch of "lowbie" content that I had to run for the campaign log, for some reason I hadn't done the dungeon in the Cloak Tower region, as one example. When I went in, I was scaled down to level 12, from 60+. So I'm a bit confused as to how this scaling mechanic can be seen as new? It seems to me that, based on this experience alone, it has always been here? I left because the game was over the top easy. If this is going to fix that, then "Yay". I can't tell, from reading the posts, if this is just salt, or if it's really bad. If it turns out to be really bad, then I'll just move along again. But really, since I've not been anywhere near the current endgame, I'm in "wait and see" mode.
I still have 0 confidence in game devs, due to my recent experiences with "balance". However, I can't help but wonder how much of this is "it's really bad" and how much is "but I've been crushing my weeklies for years, and now I may have to work at it a bit to get them done".
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
Until they find a better way to give us rAD, they will keep making the exact same mistakes. If only my internet did not have its issues with icy terrain I would be incentivized to run group content. But with how it is, it is the weekly AD quests for me. If they take longer then that means less time for me to run other content, but that seems to be what the devs wish us to do, so....
a tip from a fellow cw is that u dont really need to run icy terrain, not in end game, it has its use for freezinf stuff but thats pretty much it. ST and OF are ur main encounters in aoe, dis, ir, cs are other good choice to finish off adds. for bosses u 100% dont need it if you have the RoF atwill buff from offhand, between IK, Cs, IR, RoF, u'll have max chill ob bosses, ofc u need a proper recovery for this. This only applies to the current mod btw.
Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
I see all the naysayers basically are veteran players that are not very representative for the experience if the less developed players. And yes, I do agree.. being reduced to average performance in many of the game areas with no benefits from good gear sucks.
But again.. Cryptic probably cares most about the casual people that lands in the game 3-4 months, puts down some money and leaves. That is where their income is, not from old veterans.
And the current situation is not good for the up and coming people. There is a need for the old players to participate in old content to fill up parties fast, but old players cannot be allowed to smash through the content as they do today as that seriously diminishes the play experience for the new people.
So the obvious answer is to reduce the power of the old players. I don't like it, but I do see the rationale behind it, and that rationale is that new and up and coming players are more important to Cryptic than old players. Income > all.
nonono, thats not the issue here, atleast not for me lol, i have no problem with them downscaling me on a certain criteria but there is a CAP which literally means progression is null when you go back to old zones, yes, that sucks in any game. Caps limit progression, you dont need to be a genius to see this.
Tbf, having scaling in dungeons isn't as bad but having scaling in zones, makes 0 sense lol, your gameplay in zones have no direct effect on new players, not in any manner, in lower dungeons maybe, but in zones? nope, that makes no sense or whatsoever
Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
It seems like all these discussions revolve around fresh level 70s and very end game players. There is a wide divide between those two, and I believe the majority of players fall in the in-between. It takes a long time to get from fresh level 70 to end game for most players.
@noworries#8859 What is your vision for players like me. Mid-levels. Since we don't run end game content, it seems like we are going to be spending a very long time in content where we are already scaled and capped. Will we even see any progression as we move towards end game? It doesn't seem so. Why would I be incentivised to try if I can't see incremental improvements.
I am a mid-level player. My highest character on live is 13.8k iLvl. Too low for Tales of Old. There is nothing about this character that is overpowered. I can't spam dailies. I can't solo dungeons. I die in Chult and Ravenloft if I'm not being careful. I have only recently opened up all the zones in campaigns on live (like, finished the last one 2 days ago). I haven't yet been in all the dungeons. But I'm certainly not fresh level 70. I have seen this character improve a lot since being fresh 70. I could see myself improve with each new gear item, each upgrade to enchants, each new boon.
I copied this character to preview. She's 80 there now, though she has not completely completed the campaign (she got stopped near the end on previously bugged content and I went to testing other classes rather than do more with that char).
She is 14.5 iLvl now on preview at 80 (Incidentally she lost over 1k iLvl between when the stat change from 500-1000 divisor occurred and today, with no gear changes). So LoMM is not open to her (too low). Since she's mid undermountain campaign there's no expeditions open to her.
In Barovia she loses 12k power, and between 3 and 6k in every other stat. In Bank Heist she's got the exact same stats as in Barovia (so much for AI not being scaled).
So scaled (and capped?) in all this mid-game content? Never to really notice any sort of progression at all as I struggle with the long haul towards opening LoMM (seems even longer now since there's even less ways to improve yourself)?
To me, a basic concept of keeping people coming back to play day after day is that evolving loop:
Kill things, doing so gives you better stuff, better stuff lets you kill harder things, which gives you even better stuff, repeat, repeat, repeat. Its rewarding, its addictive, its what we love about games, and keeps us playing.
So I'm really torn on what to believe here, because frankly, I've seen this argument before, in other places, where it was absolutely right, this just recently in fact, and a reason that I'm back here now, and where it was "much ado about nothing".
Upon returning, I found that I had a bunch of "lowbie" content that I had to run for the campaign log, for some reason I hadn't done the dungeon in the Cloak Tower region, as one example. When I went in, I was scaled down to level 12, from 60+. So I'm a bit confused as to how this scaling mechanic can be seen as new? It seems to me that, based on this experience alone, it has always been here? I left because the game was over the top easy. If this is going to fix that, then "Yay". I can't tell, from reading the posts, if this is just salt, or if it's really bad. If it turns out to be really bad, then I'll just move along again. But really, since I've not been anywhere near the current endgame, I'm in "wait and see" mode.
I still have 0 confidence in game devs, due to my recent experiences with "balance". However, I can't help but wonder how much of this is "it's really bad" and how much is "but I've been crushing my weeklies for years, and now I may have to work at it a bit to get them done".
scaling in live is nothing like scaling in preview. worlds apart. much much much different
Happy customers will: - spend more money - bring you new customers through "word of mouth" - provide you with free advertising (think streamers etc.) - sometimes pay a little more than they would for the same product from a competitor - etc.
Your tunnel vision of supporting new players at the expense of current players is not a good long term strategy.
Upon returning, I found that I had a bunch of "lowbie" content that I had to run for the campaign log, for some reason I hadn't done the dungeon in the Cloak Tower region, as one example. When I went in, I was scaled down to level 12, from 60+. So I'm a bit confused as to how this scaling mechanic can be seen as new? It seems to me that, based on this experience alone, it has always been here? I left because the game was over the top easy. If this is going to fix that, then "Yay". I can't tell, from reading the posts, if this is just salt, or if it's really bad. If it turns out to be really bad, then I'll just move along again. But really, since I've not been anywhere near the current endgame, I'm in "wait and see" mode.
There *has been* scaling in the past, except: 1) It's been a percentage scaling, so progress in your gear means progress in scaled content. If my stats in level 12 content are 10% of my stats in L70 content, then adding 1000 Power at L70 will still add 100 Power at L12. 2) It hasn't applied to endgame content.
(It also hasn't been effective - scaled down characters have always been WAY too strong - but that's not a point in its favour)
The reasons people are complaining about the new scaling are: 1) It's a flat hard cap. If you're at the cap or triple the cap it doesn't matter, your scaled stats are the same. So adding power to your character doesn't matter, in scaled content 2) The scaling cap is extremely low. In the current highest-level and most-difficult content in the game, Mod 14 (Ravenloft/Barovia/Castle Ravenloft), the cap is set to one rank above the free gear you get for reaching level 70. In ~75% of all endgame content in the game, the free set every character receives when they reach level 70 is enough to put you over the hard gear cap. 3) all content in the game, except for the new solo levelling area, is scaled. In a few weeks they will add a single queue that will not be scaled, but it's only that one queue and it will not be available with Mod16 launch.
So what's happening is, every single player who reaches level 70 has a full set of Mod14 blue equipment, Mod14 artifact weapons, and Rank 8 enchantments in every single gem slot. And with this level scaling, the cap on gear for all characters in everywhere except the new levelling zone is Mod 14 purple equipment and Rank 9 enchantments. In ~75% of the game, it's "somewhere under Mod14 blue equipment and Rank 8 enchantments".
So the person with months or years of progress and IL 550+ gear and Rank 14 enchantments? In *almost all* of the game their gear is effectively identical to the 3-day-old fresh L70 character. In a very few zones their gear is effectively identical to the few-week-old L70 character who's made a single upgrade.
So: All progress after the first initial upgrade is lost, in all content except the new levelling zone. All gear progress at all is lost in all content except the new levelling zone and one or two of the previous zones. This is why people who've made more than the first initial upgrade step are saying that all their progress has been wiped out and that future progress is not possible.
In Mod 15, we were bringing lowbies on runs to help them. In Mod 16, I'll be begging a lowbie to bring me along.
I'm also going to just add that I already refrained from pugging random queues often because, well, they suck. I can get AD in other ways. But now I'll pretty much avoid anything not new content like the plague. Challenge quest rewards aren't worth this HAMSTER.
9
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
How is scaling looking? While we understand some players have concerns over scaling, we believe it is in an overall pretty good place. We do expect there to be some post-launch tweaks to scaling as the content gets played more frequently and we receive more specific feedback. .
Dear Julia,
i feel so sad, that you have to write this blatent lie. No ( NO!!!!) testplayer on PTR will say the same. So i guess some of your suit guys told you, you have to write this...versy sad.
and @noworries#8859 We are not dummies. Keep your "explanations". You are writing a wot without any clue how bad scaling is on PTR. You dont have to write bs over and over again. And let me guess. You will delete my post, amirite? Who cares if it comes from you.
Please developers, just throw out a Mea Culpa, and listen to the players...
As countless others have stated, the feeling of progress is monumentally important in any MMO/RPG.
When I have leveled up my monstrously bad-HAMSTER hero, and geared him with ever so rare, expensive and powerful items, I WANT to be invicible in lower level content...
Just remove any rewards you consider "problematic" and remove (most) of the scaling.
Otherwise, this will not go down well once the players that don't use preview or this forum, get humiliated by kobolds and whatnot, and start leaving the game...
Comments
I wasnt going to comment, but now you devs have totaly lost your marbles and i had to chip in.
So "While we understand some players have concerns over scaling, we believe it is in an overall pretty good place."
Uuuuhmm? what? are you people serious ? wait no, this can't be real, maybe i'm drunk? maybe i'm hallucinating?
Actually no, i totaly am use to these kind of posts from devs and cryptic managers, totaly thinking everthing is bright eyed and bushy tailed when the exact opposite is happening .
I find it utterly annoying and arrogant that even though all of us are against these changes, we are screaming don't do this or you will regret it like you once did, that you just keep moving forward and disregarding every good point made but everyone in this foum section, first time ive ever seen everyone on the same page, and i mean EVERYONE. Nice one guys, am proud
So back to business. What part of scalling us down is bad eludes you guys ? what part of progression does not exist anymore are you not understanding? do you not see that all comments are negative? and i mean all of them.
You have turned the game we enjoyed into a dumbed down version of its former self, no skill needed, no grinding needed.
No rewards ever, no fixes ever ( and dont tell me you patched and fixed things because fbi got fixed 2 years later recently, and msp still bugged, and many many more ) so forgive us if we dont believe you will fix anything , like ever.
Why would we believe it, the past and present clearly shows us you never listen.
Even now, this very moment that you ( ya you no worries and devs) are reading this, you don't care, if you did you come up with some sort of solution to satisfy some of the communities wants.
Oh is it just about the new players? out with the old in with the new kinda mentality ?
Well Good companies want new customers, but value the veteran customers, and make sure to keep them happy, remeber the veterans are the ones helping the new , making youtube vids, streaming, making guides and even freely advertising your game ( which i might add here you dont even recognize content creators or give any spot lights or even mention some sort of partnerships like you use to for a short period) , i dont care about it, just making the point of how you dont care about us at all. all end gamers are expendable.
I totaly agree with mickeypoo, the fabricant and many otherS that posted prior to mine.
Personaly i am very
i had hope but i lost all of my hopes today.
We have a saying in greece '' knock on a deaf mans door all you want, he still won't hear you''
Galactic
Peace.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
But again.. Cryptic probably cares most about the casual people that lands in the game 3-4 months, puts down some money and leaves. That is where their income is, not from old veterans.
And the current situation is not good for the up and coming people. There is a need for the old players to participate in old content to fill up parties fast, but old players cannot be allowed to smash through the content as they do today as that seriously diminishes the play experience for the new people.
So the obvious answer is to reduce the power of the old players. I don't like it, but I do see the rationale behind it, and that rationale is that new and up and coming players are more important to Cryptic than old players. Income > all.
You and noworries don’t even seem to understand that this same scaling that experienced players are being affected by (crippled in dungeons) is going to affect new players. New players can get to 80 in a week. At 80 they will be unable to complete level 70 content, because of the scaling.
If they are the main revenue stream as you propose (& I agree), that will dry up as well.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Do you expect new players to level undermountain only and focus on undermountain only? Getting Master Boons is the new endgame. Which means vets and new players will have a different experience. Vets will have boons going into Undermountain. Recruits will have to wait until they've grinded out the better level 80 gear at this level of scaling.
I have shown this previously when I went up from 70 to 71 and stats were scaled down with no changes other than level.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
As long as you're effectively using L65 weapons *no matter* what weapons you're using, suddenly the old set bonuses are potentially competitive.
This is the same character in the same gear in 2 places where their gear should be the same:
The IWD zone stats are the same stats you get in DR, Well, and IWD.
The KR stats are the same stats you get in SoT, KR, MC, VT and LoL.
Its not a matter of going back and using the old gear for bonuses. Even if you have Hunt gear (not what I had equipped for those 2 stat blocks) it gets scaled down, not because your gear changes, but because your LEVEL changes.
I have played through multiple times tracking my stats by not changing my gear and observed the same trend, once you hit the mysterious cap, generated by your level vs the zone you are entering your gear is locked at that cap. If it was based purely on your gear, and level played no part, if you were not being scaled at level 70, you should not be scaled at level 71 for the same gear. But you are.
But sure, scaling is working, no worries.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Having said that, I tried running around some lower-level open areas like IWD as well as instanced content (Dread Ring lairs, Biggrin's Tomb etc) and it is quite OK, although I am scaled down.
What I haven't really tried is the group content like ToNG or CR - is that so much worse ?
As for "scaling in a good place", well.....
> Do you expect new players to level undermountain only and focus on undermountain only?
>
> That is exactly what some "veterans" (including myself) intend to do.
>
>
> What I haven't really tried is the group content like ToNG or CR - is that so much worse ?
I've tried ToNG many times (5 or 6) w 19-22k parties on preview. Including that run
@lordpanich mentioned above.
He is correct.
Major scaling problems.
Withers is ridiculously upscaled. 1-hits everything.
It is unplayable.
I too plan on hiding in Undermountain, completing the campaign, level, get gear, then rinse and repeat with an alt until the level of my disgust reaches the "Frak this. I'm out." threshold.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
>
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> Getting Master Boons is the new endgame. Which means vets and new players will have a different experience.
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Did the Master Boons get redone recently, because when I looked early on, they were laughable.
Regardless, with the scaling as it is and old content not offering any new rewards, I plan on doing the new questline on a few characters and never venturing into the scaled zones. Hopefully, in time this idea will be reworked.
Grind with no reward isn't going to keep the game afloat.
Yule (Barb): 72k : Siren (TR): 78k : Torun (DC): 73k : Siren OP (OP): 76k : Siren SW (SW): 78k : Modern (F): 80k : Cherry1 (CW) : 68k Siren HR (HR): 78k
Lower level content will be ignored if these work like this: it's way more difficult & the loot/reward is also worse (at least the under lvl 50 content)
Upon returning, I found that I had a bunch of "lowbie" content that I had to run for the campaign log, for some reason I hadn't done the dungeon in the Cloak Tower region, as one example. When I went in, I was scaled down to level 12, from 60+. So I'm a bit confused as to how this scaling mechanic can be seen as new? It seems to me that, based on this experience alone, it has always been here? I left because the game was over the top easy. If this is going to fix that, then "Yay". I can't tell, from reading the posts, if this is just salt, or if it's really bad. If it turns out to be really bad, then I'll just move along again. But really, since I've not been anywhere near the current endgame, I'm in "wait and see" mode.
I still have 0 confidence in game devs, due to my recent experiences with "balance". However, I can't help but wonder how much of this is "it's really bad" and how much is "but I've been crushing my weeklies for years, and now I may have to work at it a bit to get them done".
Tbf, having scaling in dungeons isn't as bad but having scaling in zones, makes 0 sense lol, your gameplay in zones have no direct effect on new players, not in any manner, in lower dungeons maybe, but in zones? nope, that makes no sense or whatsoever
@noworries#8859 What is your vision for players like me. Mid-levels. Since we don't run end game content, it seems like we are going to be spending a very long time in content where we are already scaled and capped. Will we even see any progression as we move towards end game? It doesn't seem so. Why would I be incentivised to try if I can't see incremental improvements.
I am a mid-level player. My highest character on live is 13.8k iLvl. Too low for Tales of Old. There is nothing about this character that is overpowered. I can't spam dailies. I can't solo dungeons. I die in Chult and Ravenloft if I'm not being careful. I have only recently opened up all the zones in campaigns on live (like, finished the last one 2 days ago). I haven't yet been in all the dungeons. But I'm certainly not fresh level 70. I have seen this character improve a lot since being fresh 70. I could see myself improve with each new gear item, each upgrade to enchants, each new boon.
I copied this character to preview. She's 80 there now, though she has not completely completed the campaign (she got stopped near the end on previously bugged content and I went to testing other classes rather than do more with that char).
She is 14.5 iLvl now on preview at 80 (Incidentally she lost over 1k iLvl between when the stat change from 500-1000 divisor occurred and today, with no gear changes). So LoMM is not open to her (too low). Since she's mid undermountain campaign there's no expeditions open to her.
In Barovia she loses 12k power, and between 3 and 6k in every other stat. In Bank Heist she's got the exact same stats as in Barovia (so much for AI not being scaled).
So scaled (and capped?) in all this mid-game content? Never to really notice any sort of progression at all as I struggle with the long haul towards opening LoMM (seems even longer now since there's even less ways to improve yourself)?
To me, a basic concept of keeping people coming back to play day after day is that evolving loop:
Kill things, doing so gives you better stuff, better stuff lets you kill harder things, which gives you even better stuff, repeat, repeat, repeat. Its rewarding, its addictive, its what we love about games, and keeps us playing.
Happy customers will:
- spend more money
- bring you new customers through "word of mouth"
- provide you with free advertising (think streamers etc.)
- sometimes pay a little more than they would for the same product from a competitor
- etc.
Your tunnel vision of supporting new players at the expense of current players is not a good long term strategy.
1) It's been a percentage scaling, so progress in your gear means progress in scaled content. If my stats in level 12 content are 10% of my stats in L70 content, then adding 1000 Power at L70 will still add 100 Power at L12.
2) It hasn't applied to endgame content.
(It also hasn't been effective - scaled down characters have always been WAY too strong - but that's not a point in its favour)
The reasons people are complaining about the new scaling are:
1) It's a flat hard cap. If you're at the cap or triple the cap it doesn't matter, your scaled stats are the same. So adding power to your character doesn't matter, in scaled content
2) The scaling cap is extremely low. In the current highest-level and most-difficult content in the game, Mod 14 (Ravenloft/Barovia/Castle Ravenloft), the cap is set to one rank above the free gear you get for reaching level 70. In ~75% of all endgame content in the game, the free set every character receives when they reach level 70 is enough to put you over the hard gear cap.
3) all content in the game, except for the new solo levelling area, is scaled. In a few weeks they will add a single queue that will not be scaled, but it's only that one queue and it will not be available with Mod16 launch.
So what's happening is, every single player who reaches level 70 has a full set of Mod14 blue equipment, Mod14 artifact weapons, and Rank 8 enchantments in every single gem slot. And with this level scaling, the cap on gear for all characters in everywhere except the new levelling zone is Mod 14 purple equipment and Rank 9 enchantments. In ~75% of the game, it's "somewhere under Mod14 blue equipment and Rank 8 enchantments".
So the person with months or years of progress and IL 550+ gear and Rank 14 enchantments? In *almost all* of the game their gear is effectively identical to the 3-day-old fresh L70 character. In a very few zones their gear is effectively identical to the few-week-old L70 character who's made a single upgrade.
So: All progress after the first initial upgrade is lost, in all content except the new levelling zone. All gear progress at all is lost in all content except the new levelling zone and one or two of the previous zones. This is why people who've made more than the first initial upgrade step are saying that all their progress has been wiped out and that future progress is not possible.
In Mod 15, we were bringing lowbies on runs to help them.
In Mod 16, I'll be begging a lowbie to bring me along.
I'm also going to just add that I already refrained from pugging random queues often because, well, they suck. I can get AD in other ways. But now I'll pretty much avoid anything not new content like the plague. Challenge quest rewards aren't worth this HAMSTER.
And we all know what that means...
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
If it were, I'd be able to actually craft Iron Nails on XBox and finally make those damned Trunks for my Stronghold.
i feel so sad, that you have to write this blatent lie. No ( NO!!!!) testplayer on PTR will say the same. So i guess some of your suit guys told you, you have to write this...versy sad.
and @noworries#8859
We are not dummies. Keep your "explanations". You are writing a wot without any clue how bad scaling is on PTR. You dont have to write bs over and over again. And let me guess. You will delete my post, amirite? Who cares if it comes from you.
Please developers, just throw out a Mea Culpa, and listen to the players...
As countless others have stated, the feeling of progress is monumentally important in any MMO/RPG.
When I have leveled up my monstrously bad-HAMSTER hero, and geared him with ever so rare, expensive and powerful items, I WANT to be invicible in lower level content...
Just remove any rewards you consider "problematic" and remove (most) of the scaling.
Otherwise, this will not go down well once the players that don't use preview or this forum, get humiliated by kobolds and whatnot, and start leaving the game...