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Method behind the madness of enchants in mod 16

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  • havlockehavlocke Member Posts: 222 Arc User
    krumple01 said:


    Lol, if you want to solo a dungeon, you can always do private queue.
    However, the problems described are those of random queues.
    Random queues are run for the extra AD (for the run itself, not from the chest).
    The question is, what do you get the extra AD for?
    Obviously not for being able to solo the dungeon. Mmh? Because for that you can use private queue, and there you do not get any extra AD, right ?!

    Well see that's where your argument fails once again. The thing is you cant solo queue for randoms. If you could, I bet they would.

    To be honest what they should have done was make tiers for each dungeon. So tier one would be for the newbs that barely have the Item level requirement for the dungeon. The rewards suck and then all the slow newbs can run together. Then two more tiers that get harder but require higher item level to qualify for and you also have to at least ran one of the previous tiers first. You can't just jump straight into tier three. So in this way if you are running tier three and are crying about not being able to keep up then maybe you shouldn't be queuing for tier three.

    His argument wasn't a fail because that was NOT his argument. Motu999 was pointing out that the only reason to do randoms is for the RAD. If you were just doing runs for the dungeon you would have and could have solo queued it. So, you were only in it for the RAD, in which case you gotta do it as a Random, which means you GOT TO GROUP. Which, as some of us have pointed out, means you should actually work as a group rather than just run ahead
  • dionchidionchi Member Posts: 888 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    krumple01 said:

    But there is more than just this. Sure speed change will keep the party together but then I see a lot of new players who don't know the mechanics, are trying to learn the mechanics during the run instead of doing some research on the dungeon before hand. This happens a lot more than just a few times here and there. They don't even care to mention that they are new, or ask for some advice on a boss fight. They just pretend as if everything is fine and try to behave as if they know what to do. In some cases this lack of experience gets the entire party wiped. When they could have prevented it had they taken some time to do their research. There are a million youtube videos on every dungeon so there is no excuse as to not know a dungeon. This learning as you go mentality gets parties wiped or even worse wastes their res scrolls.

    The aspect is, some new players are lazy, they would rather complain for nerfing veterans rather than go through the same path all the veterans took to get what they have. Its actually a slap in the face to all those who put in the work to get their enchants ranked, to just have a newby come in and complain that they are too slow to keep up so we should punish those who put in the work so they can contribute their 2 points of damage.

    Different play styles is all it boils down to...

    Some players seem to think new players should "learn the mechanics" of a dungeon run before attempting a dungeon run. Some players think experience is the best teacher and prefer to learn by doing… There’s nothing wrong with either line of thought so long as no player holding a preference thinks they should be able to dictate to other players how they should play.

    @krumple01 according to your profile you started playing Neverwinter in 2013, about the same time I started playing...

    How many 'how to' YouTube videos did you watch to "learn the mechanics" of the game back then? To my recollection there weren't too many...

    I'm willing to bet despite saying other players should watch videos to learn the mechanics of the game, most of your in game experience came from actually playing and enjoying the game rather than watching someone else have fun playing the game on a video. So why would you think other players shouldn't have the same opportunity to play, enjoy and learn the game in the same fashion?

    But then that question is absolutely rhetorical... I suspect I know the reason.

    To my way of thinking it's pretty simple, if a player queues for a “random” run, a player not only get a random quest they also get a random selection of players, often with different motivations and skill levels. The best way to avoid having to run with other players with play styles and abilities one might objectionable to is to stop queuing for random public runs.

    If someone does choose to queue for a random public run, expect the selection of players, their motivations and ability levels to also be “random”… to expect otherwise is illogical.

    I personally don’t equate lack of experience or differences in motivation to laziness, yes some lesser equipped and less experienced players complained about some faster players running ahead and abandoning the party – but there were also those faster players who complained about slow-poke players who couldn’t keep up...

    The slower players who complained didn’t nerf the movement abilities of faster players the developers did and I suspect it was because the developers thought those players who run off and abandon other players in their party were contributing less to the overall state of well being of the game – including the edification of new players, than those willing to be a tad more considerate and helpful to new and less experienced players, even to the point of being willing to sacrifice their enhancedspeed, but that’s just a guess.

    Everyone with enhanced movement speed saw their abilities nerfed, myself included, but since my play style includes trying to stay with the party in random content instead of running ahead and abandoning slower and less experienced players, I don't find it that much of an affront... that you apparently do seems to speak for itself.
    DD~
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,175 Arc User
    dionchi said:


    Some players seem to think new players should "learn the mechanics" of a dungeon run before attempting a dungeon run. Some players think experience is the best teacher and prefer to learn by doing…

    Well, new players with no idea whatsoever can easily sabotage the run for more experienced players. Like destroying the ice in FBI etc etc.

    I don't think that is ok either - you DO have a responsibility to your fellow players to not waste their time.

    It is ok to be new - we all were once. But I do not think it is unreasonable to require a little bit of preparation before entering new dungeons. A small session with Google is all it takes.
    dionchi said:


    @krumple01 according to your profile you started playing Neverwinter in 2013, about the same time I started playing...

    How many 'how to' YouTube videos did you watch to "learn the mechanics" of the game back then? To my recollection there weren't too many...

    It is a big difference between entering new dungeons where everyone is new.. then it is a common explorative process.

    It is something else entirely for old dungeons that DO have a good amount of material available on the Internet.
    dionchi said:


    To my way of thinking it's pretty simple, if a player queues for a “random” run, a player not only get a random quest they also get a random selection of players, often with different motivations and skill levels. The best way to avoid having to run with other players with play styles and abilities one might objectionable to is to stop queuing for random public runs.

    If someone does choose to queue for a random public run, expect the selection of players, their motivations and ability levels to also be “random”… to expect otherwise is illogical.

    Being of variable skill and ability level is fine. But wasting the time of your fellow players by not TRYING to do your best is not acceptable. And for dungeons that means doing a little research up front.


  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,754 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    krumple01 said:


    Yeah I can imagine how many parties you let down or destroyed while you were "learning" the dungeon mechanics. Thanks for having everyone else in the party in mind.

    We learn by doing. ~ James T. Kirk, The Wrath of Khan

    And in your "run ahead and ignore party" how much of "everyone else in the party" did you have in mind?
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Member Posts: 1,654 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    If you're in a party, act like it. There is no "I" in team, but there is one in the A-hole.

    Lol. I'm sorry but this is the dumbest thing I've ever read. How about, there is no "I" in team but there sure is a "ME" in there.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,184 Arc User
    edited April 2019

    greywynd said:

    If you're in a party, act like it. There is no "I" in team, but there is one in the A-hole.

    Lol. I'm sorry but this is the dumbest thing I've ever read. How about, there is no "I" in team but there sure is a "ME" in there.
    That was what I thought too but he PM me to show where the 'i' is. He is correct. You can google that to find the i. I learned something yesterday.
  • cherryman1cherryman1 Member Posts: 337 Arc User
    havlocke said:

    bobo#5090 said:

    greywynd said:

    No movement: no more speed runs through leveling dungeons.

    This right here. Step one in making more challenging and involved content is apparently to artificially keep you in said content by making you much slower.
    That is going to suck huge donkey butt if this is the goal. My toon on preview is slower than molasses going uphill in alaska in january. Some dungeon runs take too long as it is, to slow them done further is stupid.
    Depends on your point of view. From the point of view of a newbie, when you see so called Veterans run to the end of the dungeon while you are still halfway thru, this movement speed they have is discouraging. It discouraged one guy out of my group to just stop playing after the first month or so of this. Its not a race, you aren't on a timer.
    Time is the biggest commodity in any game. When I look at a game I want things to be to where I don't have to schedule the game around my personal life. When I was younger my life wasn't so demanding that I could play more time. As I have gotten older the time to do content in my games and what I can dedicate in a sitting session has changed. I don't want to have an 30 minute piece of content or 1 hour long piece of content. That is way too long and as D&D has a fan base that is older the demographic that I play with in my guild and alliance isn't kids. Most of them are older players. This means that most want to be able to do things in a normalized amount of time. Some players have left and I have lost only a few due to players running ahead of the content. What I found about those players is that if the content wasn't played their way each time they were going to leave no matter what. They aren't the people who are going to put money into the game or play long term to enhance the community. We shouldn't be looking at them and doing things to make them want to stay at the expense of the long term paying player base.
    Guild Leader: Under the Influence
    Yule (Barb): 53k : Siren (TR): 52k : Torun (DC): 49k : Siren OP (OP): 52k : Siren SW (SW): 50k : Modern (F): 42k : Cherry1 (CW) : 42k Siren HR (HR): 50k
  • cherryman1cherryman1 Member Posts: 337 Arc User

    havlocke said:

    OK, just answer me this. WHY RUN AHEAD? You are going to get stopped at the purple circle. You cannot proceed until everybody enters. So you are running ahead just so you can do your banking/etc while waiting for people to get there???

    This is an MMO, supposedly co-op play. Why not slow down and help the new guys who aren't moving at light speed. That is not only polite but completely necessary since you have to wait for them anyways.

    And yes, all moot since we are all going at the same speed now. I just don't think this is a bad thing.


    Again, you mistake running fast with leaving things alive. Why run ahead? Why, if everything's dead, stand there and walk at a snails pace with someone? Why not proceed, clear a path, and handle whatever I need to handle while they catch up? I'm living with their slow playstyle. Why are the speedy players the bad guys?

    I can understand abandoning someone with mobs being an issue, But speed in itself is not an issue.
    Since I run a guild and talk with a decent number of these types of players they want to explore and have every part of the game be epic. If they don't get an amazing experience with everything they are going to leave. They don't want to grind for anything and want a great story that is done at their pace. In other terms, you can't keep them happy since I have found all of them said on exit that they were never going to stay here long. Those are the people who they are trying to make happy at the expense of the long term player base.
    Guild Leader: Under the Influence
    Yule (Barb): 53k : Siren (TR): 52k : Torun (DC): 49k : Siren OP (OP): 52k : Siren SW (SW): 50k : Modern (F): 42k : Cherry1 (CW) : 42k Siren HR (HR): 50k
  • cherryman1cherryman1 Member Posts: 337 Arc User

    They surely have flattened the character development curve considerably.

    There could be several reasons for this:
    * The current huge dps gap between the 12k IL and 18k IL makes content tuning hard
    * The current huge dps gap scares the low IL people away and is not casual friendly

    I do worry that they have made the curve too flat, however. If you get no increase in combat power with improved gear, it all becomes rather pointless.

    Why couldn't they instead of making the scaling give a min and max IL for all content. To do that content you have to slim your stats down to do it. The content then checks every 10 seconds or 20 seconds to see if you pushed IL above it and kicks you if you go to high or slims your stats to what they are at the start no matter what gear you place back on.
    Guild Leader: Under the Influence
    Yule (Barb): 53k : Siren (TR): 52k : Torun (DC): 49k : Siren OP (OP): 52k : Siren SW (SW): 50k : Modern (F): 42k : Cherry1 (CW) : 42k Siren HR (HR): 50k
  • krumple01krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    dionchi said:

    Some players seem to think new players should "learn the mechanics" of a dungeon run before attempting a dungeon run. Some players think experience is the best teacher and prefer to learn by doing… There’s nothing wrong with either line of thought so long as no player holding a preference thinks they should be able to dictate to other players how they should play.

    If a player can learn as they go that's fine however the odds from my point of view means they drag down the party multiple times before anything gets mentioned about them being new. So their learning punishes the rest of the party. Not every case but a majority go like that.
    dionchi said:


    @krumple01 according to your profile you started playing Neverwinter in 2013, about the same time I started playing...

    Actually May. I have a character that was created on the 4th of May, 2013. So if it says Ive been playing since November then either I didn't register for the forum until Nov, or the database has some wrong information.
    dionchi said:


    How many 'how to' YouTube videos did you watch to "learn the mechanics" of the game back then? To my recollection there weren't too many...

    In the early days there was only a few dungeons. And the mechanics back then were known pretty well. It was one person gets all the aggro, then CW ccs everything. Even the boss fights had to go that way because the Old CN boss fight was a Black Dragon that spawned Skeletal Knights. They had to be taken care of and weren't easy to just burn down. Out side that there was nothing you needed to know at all. So there was NO NEED for a video which is why they didn't appear for a long time. The mechanics were basic and the same across the board.
    dionchi said:


    I'm willing to bet despite saying other players should watch videos to learn the mechanics of the game, most of your in game experience came from actually playing and enjoying the game rather than watching someone else have fun playing the game on a video. So why would you think other players shouldn't have the same opportunity to play, enjoy and learn the game in the same fashion?

    They can learn as they go. I'm talking about the ones that drag down the party with multiple fails because of them. This whole thing started over veteran players being able to run ahead and kill everything. If players complain about that, I see it as no different than a player who doesn't know the mechanics of a dungeon, wants to learn as they go and drags the party down repeatedly failing on something they could have learned about.

    I have checked out videos though, but I skipped a head to the points where I thought the mechanic would be explained. Rather than needing to watch the entire thing.

    Actually in my defense. I avoided ever queuing for CoDG and any time I was sent a tell asking if I would join for it. I would tell them that I was terrible at push pull. So I would refuse to go and run it based on the fact that I would bring the party down. However I got taught by another player after asking if they would teach me how to handle the mechanic. So you can't say or claim I don't have party members in mind. In fact I have more party based mindset than those who go into a run and not tell anyone they are new and are trying to learn as they go but bring the party down. I would never do that. If a new dungeon comes out I am sure to tell everyone that its my first run.
    dionchi said:


    But then that question is absolutely rhetorical... I suspect I know the reason.

    To my way of thinking it's pretty simple, if a player queues for a “random” run, a player not only get a random quest they also get a random selection of players, often with different motivations and skill levels. The best way to avoid having to run with other players with play styles and abilities one might objectionable to is to stop queuing for random public runs.

    Okay fine, then players who cry and complained about speed runners killing everything should also of used this advice.
    dionchi said:


    If someone does choose to queue for a random public run, expect the selection of players, their motivations and ability levels to also be “random”… to expect otherwise is illogical.

    I am well aware of the randomness of the parties you get when you solo queue for randoms. Ive been running randoms every day since they have put them in.

    Hey remember when you HAD to pvp to get daily AD? Remember that? Same thing applied because a huge majority of the player base hated pvp but they would queue for it because they wanted the daily AD reward. So you had players who were terrible that would bring the team down all because they hated pvp.

    I have noticed that the same thing happens with random queue. Many players queue for RAQ or even REQ when they are far from ready to run them. They are hoping to get carried through the dungeon and bring the party down because of that.
    dionchi said:


    I personally don’t equate lack of experience or differences in motivation to laziness, yes some lesser equipped and less experienced players complained about some faster players running ahead and abandoning the party – but there were also those faster players who complained about slow-poke players who couldn’t keep up...

    Probably why they have removed all progression and reduced the spread so much that a fresh 70 is barely any different than a fully geared, fully booned, fully enchanted level 80.
    dionchi said:


    The slower players who complained didn’t nerf the movement abilities of faster players the developers did and I suspect it was because the developers thought those players who run off and abandon other players in their party were contributing less to the overall state of well being of the game – including the edification of new players, than those willing to be a tad more considerate and helpful to new and less experienced players, even to the point of being willing to sacrifice their enhanced speed, but that’s just a guess.

    Those new players shouldn't have even complained. They should have put in the work to get the same enchants that other players worked to get and build up. They basically complained about needing to put in the AD to get them.
    dionchi said:


    Everyone with enhanced movement speed saw their abilities nerfed, myself included, but since my play style includes trying to stay with the party in random content instead of running ahead and abandoning slower and less experienced players, I don't find it that much of an affront... that you apparently do seems to speak for itself.

    No your reading comprehension skills are terrible and assume that is my stance on it. The point you miss is those players who complain about movement speed are wanting to punish those with it and do so by complaining about it.

  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,175 Arc User
    edited April 2019


    Since I run a guild and talk with a decent number of these types of players they want to explore and have every part of the game be epic. If they don't get an amazing experience with everything they are going to leave. They don't want to grind for anything and want a great story that is done at their pace. In other terms, you can't keep them happy since I have found all of them said on exit that they were never going to stay here long. Those are the people who they are trying to make happy at the expense of the long term player base.

    The problem of course is that these players are those leaving most money behind.

    Which really makes it in everyone's interest that they are happy and keep leaving those monies behind. No money, no mods, no game.

    I don't have to like it, but that is the harsh reality.

    But I think Cryptic maybe have gone too far.
  • cherryman1cherryman1 Member Posts: 337 Arc User


    Since I run a guild and talk with a decent number of these types of players they want to explore and have every part of the game be epic. If they don't get an amazing experience with everything they are going to leave. They don't want to grind for anything and want a great story that is done at their pace. In other terms, you can't keep them happy since I have found all of them said on exit that they were never going to stay here long. Those are the people who they are trying to make happy at the expense of the long term player base.

    The problem of course is that these players are those leaving most money behind.

    Which really makes it in everyone's interest that they are happy and keep leaving those monies behind. No money, no mods, no game.

    I don't have to like it, but that is the harsh reality.

    But I think Cryptic maybe have gone too far.
    What I am getting at is there is no way to keep them no matter what you do. I agree no money is no game. However, they are punishing the paying players at the hope that new clients will pay them. That is a failing business plan in the long run. Also, those players never put any money into the game to begin with. If they did it was a 20 dollar purchase that most regretted what they purchased. If they put money in they essentially are like the first time players at a casino who lose all their money. They were there for the experience but most after seeing what they can buy and get for their money they don't stay.

    Guild Leader: Under the Influence
    Yule (Barb): 53k : Siren (TR): 52k : Torun (DC): 49k : Siren OP (OP): 52k : Siren SW (SW): 50k : Modern (F): 42k : Cherry1 (CW) : 42k Siren HR (HR): 50k
  • dionchidionchi Member Posts: 888 Arc User
    havlocke said:

    Well, new players with no idea whatsoever can easily sabotage the run for more experienced players. Like destroying the ice in FBI etc etc.

    I don't think that is ok either - you DO have a responsibility to your fellow players to not waste their time.

    It is ok to be new - we all were once. But I do not think it is unreasonable to require a little bit of preparation before entering new dungeons. A small session with Google is all it takes.

    Of course some might argue that it is to the benefit of veteran players to teach less experienced players how not to "sabotage" event runs, the same way veteran players used to do before all of the ‘how to’ videos…

    Since it also seems you have been playing Neverwinter since 2013, I’m guessing you are among those of us who learned by doing rather than by watching videos other players doing… so why should the same not be allowed for players who start playing Neverwinter later?
    havlocke said:

    dionchi said:


    @krumple01 according to your profile you started playing Neverwinter in 2013, about the same time I started playing...

    How many 'how to' YouTube videos did you watch to "learn the mechanics" of the game back then? To my recollection there weren't too many...

    It is a big difference between entering new dungeons where everyone is new.. then it is a common explorative process.

    It is something else entirely for old dungeons that DO have a good amount of material available on the Internet.

    It seems to me the only difference between players entering a dungeon in 2013 and 2019 is the attitude of some ‘veteran’ players…

    Back in 2013 when I was a new player most (but not all obviously) of the veterans were helpful and tolerant of new players who lacked experience, skill and technique. Sometimes the more experienced players would actually take the time to chat a newer player through content they were unfamiliar with, most of the time newer players learned just by watching more experienced players in their party, something now impossible when some of those more experienced players take of running ahead and out of sight of new and lesser experienced players…

    Want to know why the developers decided to nerf movement speed? The reason I just mentioned would be at the top of my list.

    The reasons for players to queue for random content are as varied as the players in that content. Some are there just for the AD reward at the end, some are there for the experience, refinement items and even some to try to obtain better gear than they currently have and maybe try to pick up a few tricks of the trade along the way. Then there are those who just run random content for fun… of course the AD award upon completion is a bonus but for any player to enter a random queue for a singular purpose then attempt to complain because other players in the party might have a different motivation is not only disturbingly self serving as far as I’m concerned but an attempt to deny new and lesser experienced players an opportunity to play the content for their own purposes – whatever that might be.

    I’m willing to bet a lot of the newer or less experienced players today are doing as much "research up front" as we did back in 2013 when we were new players, probably more and I cannot in good conscious complain or begrudge any new player the opportunity to play, learn and experience Neverwinter content in the same fashion I (probably ‘we’) had without feeling hypocritical and duplicitous to boot.

    But that may just me me.
    havlocke said:

    dionchi said:


    To my way of thinking it's pretty simple, if a player queues for a “random” run, a player not only get a random quest they also get a random selection of players, often with different motivations and skill levels. The best way to avoid having to run with other players with play styles and abilities one might objectionable to is to stop queuing for random public runs.

    If someone does choose to queue for a random public run, expect the selection of players, their motivations and ability levels to also be “random”… to expect otherwise is illogical.

    Being of variable skill and ability level is fine. But wasting the time of your fellow players by not TRYING to do your best is not acceptable. And for dungeons that means doing a little research up front.

    Being of variable sills and abilities, as you say is fine, and to be expected, despite assertions to the contrary when anyone queues for random public content…

    As for determining whether or not another player is “trying their best”, again that seems to be up to subjective interpretation.

    If a player’s primary motivation is to complete a run as quickly as possible and grab the AD’s at the end, that player could well try to claim other players aren’t “trying their best” to accommodate their personal motivation for running that content…

    Where as for a player who wants to take their time to explore as much of that content as possible, find and open chests and use skill nodes to acquire treasure might complain that those who are primarily motivated by the AD’s at the end aren’t “trying their best” to accommodate their personal motivation for running that content…

    But keep in mind any player running random public content will be teamed with players who most often are in that content for their own reasons and to expect any player to concede their preference to any other player, based on how that player thinks other people should be playing is completely unreasonable and as I mentioned a bit hypocritical.

    Slower players running a dungeon to gain experience (both in technique and points) aren’t harming the game and as a matter of fact may be beneficial to the game because their accumulated experience makes them better players – players running ahead of the rest of their party because their primary purpose is just to accumulate more AD’s are not only denying other players the benefits of a party, but limiting the experience newer players are able to obtain by watching how more experienced players operate, not to mention the bad example to new players of how not to run grouped or party content.

    It’s not a race, there aren’t extra points for arriving at the end first, the simple fact is no one will be able to clear the final gate and get their reward until the slowest player arrives at that assembly point…

    One can either try to help new and lesser experienced players arrive at the final gate more quickly and at the same time attempt to pass on experience or maybe advice while remaining with the party, or they can run ahead and just wait at the final gate idly polish their sword or whatever until the slowest player gets there.

    My 2¢
    DD~
  • dionchidionchi Member Posts: 888 Arc User

    havlocke said:

    bobo#5090 said:

    greywynd said:

    No movement: no more speed runs through leveling dungeons.

    This right here. Step one in making more challenging and involved content is apparently to artificially keep you in said content by making you much slower.
    That is going to suck huge donkey butt if this is the goal. My toon on preview is slower than molasses going uphill in alaska in january. Some dungeon runs take too long as it is, to slow them done further is stupid.
    Depends on your point of view. From the point of view of a newbie, when you see so called Veterans run to the end of the dungeon while you are still halfway thru, this movement speed they have is discouraging. It discouraged one guy out of my group to just stop playing after the first month or so of this. Its not a race, you aren't on a timer.
    Time is the biggest commodity in any game. When I look at a game I want things to be to where I don't have to schedule the game around my personal life. When I was younger my life wasn't so demanding that I could play more time. As I have gotten older the time to do content in my games and what I can dedicate in a sitting session has changed. I don't want to have an 30 minute piece of content or 1 hour long piece of content. That is way too long and as D&D has a fan base that is older the demographic that I play with in my guild and alliance isn't kids. Most of them are older players. This means that most want to be able to do things in a normalized amount of time. Some players have left and I have lost only a few due to players running ahead of the content. What I found about those players is that if the content wasn't played their way each time they were going to leave no matter what. They aren't the people who are going to put money into the game or play long term to enhance the community. We shouldn't be looking at them and doing things to make them want to stay at the expense of the long term paying player base.
    Actually, not to argue the point but I happen to think new players - and the revenue they are likely to bring to the game is a more precious commodity than time because without it any game is likely to decline and eventually die and it’s hard to keep new players if their gaming experience is unsatisfactory because of the way they are being treated by some 'veteran' players who lack the “time” or desire to make the experience of new players as enjoyable and edifying as possible…

    Yeah we can all play in a self-serving manner, caring for no other player’s experience than our own, that is until the game eventually dies because of the lack of new players and new money – or we can try to be as helpful as possible to new and lesser experienced players and see the game survive and possibly thrive, so we can continue to enjoy it in whatever time we have available.

    I think just about every player, even the younger ones are aware of real life responsibilities and how they effect enjoying recreational gaming time. To try to imply that one must accomplish something in a recreational game because of real life time limits to me indicates either bad planning or emphasis on the wrong priorities…

    People play (or should play) Neverwinter to have fun, to enjoy themselves in the time allotted between real life responsibilities. To try to claim one must complete something in the game quickly do to RL time constraints isn’t playing a game for enjoyment, it’s a part time job which usually turns out to be neither fun nor entertaining... not for that player nor the people who have to put up with that player’s attitude.

    I see many of the changes coming in Mod16 as an attempt to attract and hopefully retain new players and if some veteran players decide to leave the game as a result, well chances are they’ve probably already made their financial contribution to the game and are now just trying to skate by using the tips and tricks they’ve learned so they don’t have to financially support the game with real world currency… not a loss I figure many at Cryptic will miss or an attitude many new players are likely to worry about.

    Most players will stay or leave Neverwinter based on how much enjoyment the get from the game – not how much profit they can accumulate, and in my mind that’s just the way it should be.
    DD~
  • krumple01krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    dionchi said:



    Actually, not to argue the point but I happen to think new players - and the revenue they are likely to bring to the game is a more precious commodity than time because without it any game is likely to decline and eventually die and it’s hard to keep new players if their gaming experience is unsatisfactory because of the way they are being treated by some 'veteran' players who lack the “time” or desire to make the experience of new players as enjoyable and edifying as possible…

    Yeah we can all play in a self-serving manner, caring for no other player’s experience than our own, that is until the game eventually dies because of the lack of new players and new money – or we can try to be as helpful as possible to new and lesser experienced players and see the game survive and possibly thrive, so we can continue to enjoy it in whatever time we have available.

    The thing is, this is a two way street. You just want to point the finger at the veterans being the problem. The thing is new players don't help the issue. They should have the courtesy to mention that they are new. Or they should tell the party if they are unfamiliar with what they should do or what to know. If a veteran is willing to take the time to help then it should be a new players responsibility to inform the party. The fact is, they don't, and the ones who do is so rare that if you based the incoming population of new player count on those who admitted they were new, you would think the game gets one new player a month. The reality is new players drag parties down when they try to rely on experiencing the content to learn it. They punish the rest of the party while they either fail or try to figure it out.
    dionchi said:


    I think just about every player, even the younger ones are aware of real life responsibilities and how they effect enjoying recreational gaming time. To try to imply that one must accomplish something in a recreational game because of real life time limits to me indicates either bad planning or emphasis on the wrong priorities…

    People play (or should play) Neverwinter to have fun, to enjoy themselves in the time allotted between real life responsibilities. To try to claim one must complete something in the game quickly do to RL time constraints isn’t playing a game for enjoyment, it’s a part time job which usually turns out to be neither fun nor entertaining... not for that player nor the people who have to put up with that player’s attitude.

    Once again you are missing other aspects. What about the players who don't have a lot of time to spend, maybe this is motivating them to speed run but they are being held back by a lower geared player who is slow and even possibly lacking experience but they have plenty of available time to waste slogging through the dungeon at a snails pace.
    dionchi said:


    I see many of the changes coming in Mod16 as an attempt to attract and hopefully retain new players and if some veteran players decide to leave the game as a result, well chances are they’ve probably already made their financial contribution to the game and are now just trying to skate by using the tips and tricks they’ve learned so they don’t have to financially support the game with real world currency… not a loss I figure many at Cryptic will miss or an attitude many new players are likely to worry about.

    Most players will stay or leave Neverwinter based on how much enjoyment the get from the game – not how much profit they can accumulate, and in my mind that’s just the way it should be.

    Its odd because in some ways the game has been streamlined but in other ways it has become so convoluted and complicated. The cleric for example has gone from one form of divinity to two kinds. Some powers use one form and other powers use another form. One power might empower another type of divinity but at the same time consume the other. Its so convoluted and confusing that you are forced to use certain powers so that you gain in one. In fact they added recently this mechanic of the cleric needing to balance between the two forms rather than just focus one of them. This is exceptionally annoying because if you ignore this then you will imbalance the two and work against yourself so you are forced into adhering to this mechanic which then dictates which powers you MUST use. You no longer have any freedom to use the powers you just want to use, sure you can but a major disadvantage.

    So early on in preview they had the new cleric established, recently they did almost a complete overhaul again on the cleric feats and powers. No exaggeration, they completely redone the cleric feats again. They removed some of the early choices. For example Devout were able to grab a feat that allowed them to channel divinity while moving. If they didn't pick this feat they are stuck in place while channeling. You can't dodge red or mob attacks while channeling. You are stuck in spot. So this feat was nice it allowed you to move while you channel. Well they recently removed it. Its gone now. Both paragons don't have it. They also took a way the damage bonus feats and made them convoluted. Like based on how much divinity you have determines any damage bonus. And like I mentioned earlier, there is one where you MUST maintain a balance of the two forms of divinity or you put yourself in a disadvantage. Its silly. So contrived and clear that they want to control everything so much that freedom of choice is gone.

    I tested this out in Barovia and I couldn't even do the daily quests solo as a cleric. I have full boons, full maxed out enchants, maxed out artifacts and using the BiS companions. Yet I was unable to solo Barovia as a level 80. The damage a cleric does even for Arbiter build is so little and the defense is so lacking that you can get two shot by a trash mob. The problem arises when you run out of divinity, you are forced to stand still while channeling which leaves you open for mob attacks. Without divinity you can't use any encounters and are stuck using at-wills but those at wills don't replenish divinity, only channeling does. But problem number two is the cleric at-wills do so little damage that you'll never kill the trash mob yet it will get in melee range and kill the cleric.

    In mod 15 this is unheard of unless the cleric is a fresh level 70. But also in mod 15 the cleric can at least heal even if on cool down. It can heal. But not in mod 16.





  • havlockehavlocke Member Posts: 222 Arc User
    Just as a quick note Krumple, you said

    "They can learn as they go. I'm talking about the ones that drag down the party with multiple fails because of them. This whole thing started over veteran players being able to run ahead and kill everything"

    Actually, nobody really cared if they ran ahead and killed everything. We were (or at least I was) complaining about people running ahead and NOT killing anything and thus letting the newbies wade thru mobs and DYING.

    Please note that many MMOs have zero speed difference between classes and that seems to work out ok. I'm not sure why we seem to be so precious about it.
  • havlockehavlocke Member Posts: 222 Arc User
    dionchi said:

    havlocke said:

    Well, new players with no idea whatsoever can easily sabotage the run for more experienced players. Like destroying the ice in FBI etc etc.

    I don't think that is ok either - you DO have a responsibility to your fellow players to not waste their time.

    It is ok to be new - we all were once. But I do not think it is unreasonable to require a little bit of preparation before entering new dungeons. A small session with Google is all it takes.

    Of course some might argue that it is to the benefit of veteran players to teach less experienced players how not to "sabotage" event runs, the same way veteran players used to do before all of the ‘how to’ videos…

    Since it also seems you have been playing Neverwinter since 2013, I’m guessing you are among those of us who learned by doing rather than by watching videos other players doing… so why should the same not be allowed for players who start playing Neverwinter later?
    havlocke said:

    dionchi said:


    @krumple01 according to your profile you started playing Neverwinter in 2013, about the same time I started playing...

    How many 'how to' YouTube videos did you watch to "learn the mechanics" of the game back then? To my recollection there weren't too many...

    It is a big difference between entering new dungeons where everyone is new.. then it is a common explorative process.

    It is something else entirely for old dungeons that DO have a good amount of material available on the Internet.

    It seems to me the only difference between players entering a dungeon in 2013 and 2019 is the attitude of some ‘veteran’ players…

    Back in 2013 when I was a new player most (but not all obviously) of the veterans were helpful and tolerant of new players who lacked experience, skill and technique. Sometimes the more experienced players would actually take the time to chat a newer player through content they were unfamiliar with, most of the time newer players learned just by watching more experienced players in their party, something now impossible when some of those more experienced players take of running ahead and out of sight of new and lesser experienced players…

    Want to know why the developers decided to nerf movement speed? The reason I just mentioned would be at the top of my list.

    The reasons for players to queue for random content are as varied as the players in that content. Some are there just for the AD reward at the end, some are there for the experience, refinement items and even some to try to obtain better gear than they currently have and maybe try to pick up a few tricks of the trade along the way. Then there are those who just run random content for fun… of course the AD award upon completion is a bonus but for any player to enter a random queue for a singular purpose then attempt to complain because other players in the party might have a different motivation is not only disturbingly self serving as far as I’m concerned but an attempt to deny new and lesser experienced players an opportunity to play the content for their own purposes – whatever that might be.

    I’m willing to bet a lot of the newer or less experienced players today are doing as much "research up front" as we did back in 2013 when we were new players, probably more and I cannot in good conscious complain or begrudge any new player the opportunity to play, learn and experience Neverwinter content in the same fashion I (probably ‘we’) had without feeling hypocritical and duplicitous to boot.

    But that may just me me.
    havlocke said:

    dionchi said:


    To my way of thinking it's pretty simple, if a player queues for a “random” run, a player not only get a random quest they also get a random selection of players, often with different motivations and skill levels. The best way to avoid having to run with other players with play styles and abilities one might objectionable to is to stop queuing for random public runs.

    If someone does choose to queue for a random public run, expect the selection of players, their motivations and ability levels to also be “random”… to expect otherwise is illogical.

    Being of variable skill and ability level is fine. But wasting the time of your fellow players by not TRYING to do your best is not acceptable. And for dungeons that means doing a little research up front.

    Being of variable sills and abilities, as you say is fine, and to be expected, despite assertions to the contrary when anyone queues for random public content…

    As for determining whether or not another player is “trying their best”, again that seems to be up to subjective interpretation.

    If a player’s primary motivation is to complete a run as quickly as possible and grab the AD’s at the end, that player could well try to claim other players aren’t “trying their best” to accommodate their personal motivation for running that content…

    Where as for a player who wants to take their time to explore as much of that content as possible, find and open chests and use skill nodes to acquire treasure might complain that those who are primarily motivated by the AD’s at the end aren’t “trying their best” to accommodate their personal motivation for running that content…

    But keep in mind any player running random public content will be teamed with players who most often are in that content for their own reasons and to expect any player to concede their preference to any other player, based on how that player thinks other people should be playing is completely unreasonable and as I mentioned a bit hypocritical.

    Slower players running a dungeon to gain experience (both in technique and points) aren’t harming the game and as a matter of fact may be beneficial to the game because their accumulated experience makes them better players – players running ahead of the rest of their party because their primary purpose is just to accumulate more AD’s are not only denying other players the benefits of a party, but limiting the experience newer players are able to obtain by watching how more experienced players operate, not to mention the bad example to new players of how not to run grouped or party content.

    It’s not a race, there aren’t extra points for arriving at the end first, the simple fact is no one will be able to clear the final gate and get their reward until the slowest player arrives at that assembly point…

    One can either try to help new and lesser experienced players arrive at the final gate more quickly and at the same time attempt to pass on experience or maybe advice while remaining with the party, or they can run ahead and just wait at the final gate idly polish their sword or whatever until the slowest player gets there.

    My 2¢
    LOL mate, I never said any of those things, I believe it was Krumple. I'm the one who agrees with you :)
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,145 Arc User
    For those questioning how badly enchants were nerfed and the insignificance of rank 15...
    Let me give you some practical context.

    Rank 14 Radiant in Defense slot gives 4320 HP.
    Rank 15 Radiant in Defense slot gives 4800 HP.

    That's 480 HP for the low-low price of ~350k RP and about ~1mil AD of Enchanting stone and Coal Ward/Pres Wards.

    My preview Vanguard has 350,000 HP.
    Pay 1 mil AD to gain 0.00137% of my total HP?

    I lose more HP scratching my hairy HAMSTER.
    No thanks.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • autumnwitchautumnwitch Member Posts: 953 Arc User

    For those questioning how badly enchants were nerfed and the insignificance of rank 15...
    Let me give you some practical context.

    Rank 14 Radiant in Defense slot gives 4320 HP.
    Rank 15 Radiant in Defense slot gives 4800 HP.

    That's 480 HP for the low-low price of ~350k RP and about ~1mil AD of Enchanting stone and Coal Ward/Pres Wards.

    My preview Vanguard has 350,000 HP.
    Pay 1 mil AD to gain 0.00137% of my total HP?

    I lose more HP scratching my hairy HAMSTER.
    No thanks.

    Aye this is the biggest head scratcher for MOD16 for me. The want to sell more Zen but they have devalued everything so much it's not worth buying? I really don't get it.
    Boudica's Sisters - A Guild For Introverts
  • krumple01krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User

    For those questioning how badly enchants were nerfed and the insignificance of rank 15...
    Let me give you some practical context.

    Rank 14 Radiant in Defense slot gives 4320 HP.
    Rank 15 Radiant in Defense slot gives 4800 HP.

    That's 480 HP for the low-low price of ~350k RP and about ~1mil AD of Enchanting stone and Coal Ward/Pres Wards.

    My preview Vanguard has 350,000 HP.
    Pay 1 mil AD to gain 0.00137% of my total HP?

    I lose more HP scratching my hairy HAMSTER.
    No thanks.

    Aye this is the biggest head scratcher for MOD16 for me. The want to sell more Zen but they have devalued everything so much it's not worth buying? I really don't get it.
    Your answer to your question is exactly what we have been discussing here.

    New players cry that veteran players have too much, these new players don't want to do the work to be equal to a veteran character. So Cryptic has decided to bring the separation closer together. This turns out to mean, progress is only gaining a few hundred of any stat.

    A fresh 80 with no boons unlocked vs a fully geared 80 with everything maxed is just a few stat points different.

    There now new players and old players are almost equal. One put in a lot of effort and work and the other just stepped into the game and can run the same content.

    The backlash result is, doing campaigns for boons, meaningless unless you really need 100 points in a stat. Don't even sweat upgrading your enchants. You are better off selling your upgrade materials to players who haven't figured it out yet.

    The ONLY major impact on your character in preview atm are the companions. They do the biggest stat gains or loss. If you are looking at quick stat bumps, don't look at enchantments anymore.

  • dionchidionchi Member Posts: 888 Arc User
    havlocke said:

    LOL mate, I never said any of those things, I believe it was Krumple. I'm the one who agrees with you :)

    My apologies, sometimes in an effort to save space I try to cut and paste superfluous bits from the post… not always successfully obviously ~ :s
    DD~
  • dionchidionchi Member Posts: 888 Arc User
    krumple01 said:

    The thing is, this is a two way street. You just want to point the finger at the veterans being the problem. The thing is new players don't help the issue. They should have the courtesy to mention that they are new. Or they should tell the party if they are unfamiliar with what they should do or what to know. If a veteran is willing to take the time to help then it should be a new players responsibility to inform the party. The fact is, they don't, and the ones who do is so rare that if you based the incoming population of new player count on those who admitted they were new, you would think the game gets one new player a month. The reality is new players drag parties down when they try to rely on experiencing the content to learn it. They punish the rest of the party while they either fail or try to figure it out.

    Actually if we are being honest, I was figuratively pointing my finger at SOME veterans, of the game – not all of them…

    As you said it is a two way street… If new member - some of whom don’t even have the ability to post in chat - are being discourteous by not announcing they are new, wouldn’t that also mean some veteran players are also being discourteous by not asking if there are any new or inexperienced players in the party or if everyone is familiar with the dynamics of the content instead of just assuming everyone in the party knows everything about the content they’re playing?

    There’s you’re “two way street”. Just about everyone who started playing Neverwinter lacks experience, but to try to claim that new players are trying punish other players by their inexperience… are you serious???

    I’ve been in many parties and very few times has a new or inexperienced player “dragged” other party members down when everyone remains with the group and certainly never in my mind with the intent of trying to “punish” anyone because of their inexperience… and truth be told if those who claim new or experienced players “drag others down” or are somehow “punishing” them by their lack of experience, remain with those who appear to have the least experience, at least a portion of than can be negated if everyone sticks together, plays as a party and offers advice if it seems to be needed rather than just running off and letting everyone fend for themselves.

    Seems to me you are now simply grasping at straws – weak straws at that, to try to support your premise.
    krumple01 said:

    Once again you are missing other aspects. What about the players who don't have a lot of time to spend, maybe this is motivating them to speed run but they are being held back by a lower geared player who is slow and even possibly lacking experience but they have plenty of available time to waste slogging through the dungeon at a snails pace.

    My voice of reason tells me if I am under serious real world time constraints to the extent that playing a game might interfere with those real world obligations, perhaps I should put off playing a game until I have more time… but again that might just be me.

    The fact remains everyone has real life obligations and everyone has, or at least should have, the ability to prioritize their activities to where playing a game doesn’t conflict with those RL responsibilities… To try to claim one has to speed run, hurry up to accomplish something in a game because of their RL obligations, seems to speak more to the lack of ability to prioritize than any real problem, at least to me.

    And another thing that seems to be the topic of popular discussion, it seems with the roll out of Mod16 all dungeon and skirmish runs are going to take more time and not simply because of the movement speed nerf. So if someone claims they have to run ahead in random content now because of time constraints, it’s only going to be worse after Mod16 is released… They’ll be looking back on the present, with slow new and inexperienced players as the “good old days”.
    krumple01 said:

    dionchi said:


    I see many of the changes coming in Mod16 as an attempt to attract and hopefully retain new players and if some veteran players decide to leave the game as a result, well chances are they’ve probably already made their financial contribution to the game and are now just trying to skate by using the tips and tricks they’ve learned so they don’t have to financially support the game with real world currency… not a loss I figure many at Cryptic will miss or an attitude many new players are likely to worry about.

    Most players will stay or leave Neverwinter based on how much enjoyment the get from the game – not how much profit they can accumulate, and in my mind that’s just the way it should be.

    Its odd because in some ways the game has been streamlined but in other ways it has become so convoluted and complicated. The cleric for example has gone from one form of divinity to two kinds. Some powers use one form and other powers use another form. One power might empower another type of divinity but at the same time consume the other. Its so convoluted and confusing that you are forced to use certain powers so that you gain in one. In fact they added recently this mechanic of the cleric needing to balance between the two forms rather than just focus one of them. This is exceptionally annoying because if you ignore this then you will imbalance the two and work against yourself so you are forced into adhering to this mechanic which then dictates which powers you MUST use. You no longer have any freedom to use the powers you just want to use, sure you can but a major disadvantage.

    So early on in preview they had the new cleric established, recently they did almost a complete overhaul again on the cleric feats and powers. No exaggeration, they completely redone the cleric feats again. They removed some of the early choices. For example Devout were able to grab a feat that allowed them to channel divinity while moving. If they didn't pick this feat they are stuck in place while channeling. You can't dodge red or mob attacks while channeling. You are stuck in spot. So this feat was nice it allowed you to move while you channel. Well they recently removed it. Its gone now. Both paragons don't have it. They also took a way the damage bonus feats and made them convoluted. Like based on how much divinity you have determines any damage bonus. And like I mentioned earlier, there is one where you MUST maintain a balance of the two forms of divinity or you put yourself in a disadvantage. Its silly. So contrived and clear that they want to control everything so much that freedom of choice is gone.

    I tested this out in Barovia and I couldn't even do the daily quests solo as a cleric. I have full boons, full maxed out enchants, maxed out artifacts and using the BiS companions. Yet I was unable to solo Barovia as a level 80. The damage a cleric does even for Arbiter build is so little and the defense is so lacking that you can get two shot by a trash mob. The problem arises when you run out of divinity, you are forced to stand still while channeling which leaves you open for mob attacks. Without divinity you can't use any encounters and are stuck using at-wills but those at wills don't replenish divinity, only channeling does. But problem number two is the cleric at-wills do so little damage that you'll never kill the trash mob yet it will get in melee range and kill the cleric.

    In mod 15 this is unheard of unless the cleric is a fresh level 70. But also in mod 15 the cleric can at least heal even if on cool down. It can heal. But not in mod 16.

    Just speaking for myself, if I perceive a game as being so “convoluted and complicated” that I don’t enjoy playing it, the simple answer would seem to be to not play it.

    Mod16 is it’s a done deal, one can either suck it up and attempt to adapt and overcome trying to learn and adjust to the new game requirements, ineffectually tilt at windmills by complaining, or just walk away…

    I also have a certain amount of misgivings about how character and enhancement specs are going to change the game. From what I hear it will be more difficult for just about every class of character to solo content designed to be taken on by a party and the changes appear to be specific and intentional toward making it so…. as for the possible reasons as to why the developers thought such drastic alterations were necessary in my mind that doesn’t seem particularly difficult to figure out, speculatively at least and at the top of my speculative list is those who have been and have been trying to justify running off and abandoning other party members during content designed to be run by a party – for whatever reason.


    DD~
  • krumple01krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    dionchi said:


    Actually if we are being honest, I was figuratively pointing my finger at SOME veterans, of the game – not all of them…

    As you said it is a two way street… If new member - some of whom don’t even have the ability to post in chat - are being discourteous by not announcing they are new,

    I'm talking party chat though. They can queue for the dungeon then mention they are new in party chat. I don't think there are any restrictions on a new player using party chat. If there is, I am not aware because I've been playing so long I wouldn't have experienced those chat restrictions. Also there could be some language barriers too.
    dionchi said:


    wouldn’t that also mean some veteran players are also being discourteous by not asking if there are any new or inexperienced players in the party

    Well it really shouldn't be up to the veterans to ask. However; I have asked several times in party if there were any new players or inexperienced. Most of the time I get no response even though I am 100% certain there is. I have had a lot of experiences in many different scenarios. Just one example happened a few weeks back where I was in Tong. We managed to get to the end boss but I had my suspicion that the tank OP was not pulling his weight. I asked the question if he was new. His response was, we should replace the DC (me). I said in party chat after that, okay fine ill leave and take the penalty but I know my replacement DC will say the same thing.

    The other three party members didn't want me to leave. But I left anyways because I knew the OP was actually the weak link but he didnt want to admit it. About five or ten minutes after I left the Wizzy in the party sends me a tell saying the replacement DC rage quit the party saying the OP sucked. I don't know if that really happened, I was only going off what the wizard told me. I apologized again for leaving but I knew and wanted to make the point at my own expense. After spending the time to get to the boss then outted by a new player who knew he was the weak point, but instead wanted to blame someone else.
    dionchi said:


    or if everyone is familiar with the dynamics of the content instead of just assuming everyone in the party knows everything about the content they’re playing?

    I always assume that everyone knows the content unless they state it. A new player should have the obligation to inform the party if they refuse to do their research. I don't mind giving tips or helpful advice on a boss fight. I have done it to the point where I'm annoying the rest of the party who just want to get into the fight.
    dionchi said:


    There’s you’re “two way street”. Just about everyone who started playing Neverwinter lacks experience, but to try to claim that new players are trying punish other players by their inexperience… are you serious???

    The punishment I refer to comes from when a new player attempts to learn the mechanics but its causing the party to fail. This punishes the rest of the party because they lack the experience. They could have prevented this by doing their research or informing the party that they need some advice. A player who says nothing is punishing the rest of the party when they cause the failure.
    dionchi said:


    I’ve been in many parties and very few times has a new or inexperienced player “dragged” other party members down when everyone remains with the group and certainly never in my mind with the intent of trying to “punish” anyone because of their inexperience… and truth be told if those who claim new or experienced players “drag others down” or are somehow “punishing” them by their lack of experience, remain with those who appear to have the least experience, at least a portion of than can be negated if everyone sticks together, plays as a party and offers advice if it seems to be needed rather than just running off and letting everyone fend for themselves.

    Seems to me you are now simply grasping at straws – weak straws at that, to try to support your premise.

    Not grasping at straws your reading comprehension skills need a little more work. I have already restated it above. You have mistaken my premise. When you try to learn as you go but it causes failure, you are punishing the rest of the party.
    dionchi said:


    My voice of reason tells me if I am under serious real world time constraints to the extent that playing a game might interfere with those real world obligations, perhaps I should put off playing a game until I have more time… but again that might just be me.

    Maybe but if you have a few hours to play, you are still limited and imagine being in an end game dungeon with a player who doesn't know what they are doing. It can cause a single run to last over an hour. If you only have two hours to play then that hour was wasted especially if the instance gets voted to abandon because one inexperienced player kept causing the failure.
    dionchi said:


    And another thing that seems to be the topic of popular discussion, it seems with the roll out of Mod16 all dungeon and skirmish runs are going to take more time and not simply because of the movement speed nerf. So if someone claims they have to run ahead in random content now because of time constraints, it’s only going to be worse after Mod16 is released… They’ll be looking back on the present, with slow new and inexperienced players as the “good old days”.

    Maybe but also movement speed hasn't been completely removed. Its still in the game in the form of Dex bonus, boons and feats. Which actually causes a bigger issue behind movement because now that they are placed behind boons and dex bonus and feat options it becomes even harder for new players to get it even if they wanted it.
    dionchi said:


    Just speaking for myself, if I perceive a game as being so “convoluted and complicated” that I don’t enjoy playing it, the simple answer would seem to be to not play it.

    Sure but not always easy to break up with a game after you have spent many years playing every day which I have done. I can't just easily stop or quit. I have too many memories and money wrapped up in the game, not to mention time. Starting a new game isn't always so appealing.
    dionchi said:


    Mod16 is it’s a done deal, one can either suck it up and attempt to adapt and overcome trying to learn and adjust to the new game requirements, ineffectually tilt at windmills by complaining, or just walk away…

    See your attitude has changed. Replace this with a complaint about veteran players moving too fast, running a head. Why don't you tell those players complaining about that to just "suck it up" and deal with it? Funny how you are more than inclined to tell a veteran who doesn't like mod 16 to suck it up and deal with it but when it comes to a new player complaining about movement speed is in some way valid and legitimate.
    dionchi said:


    I also have a certain amount of misgivings about how character and enhancement specs are going to change the game. From what I hear it will be more difficult for just about every class of character to solo content designed to be taken on by a party and the changes appear to be specific and intentional toward making it so…. as for the possible reasons as to why the developers thought such drastic alterations were necessary in my mind that doesn’t seem particularly difficult to figure out, speculatively at least and at the top of my speculative list is those who have been and have been trying to justify running off and abandoning other party members during content designed to be run by a party – for whatever reason.

    Maybe. If they do intend for daily quests to be done in a party when before they were easily soloed is still something to see if they intended for this or the new system isn't working correctly. I wouldn't mind if they intend for daily quests to require a party but they need to make the process easier for that to take place.

  • sandukutupusandukutupu Member Posts: 2,235 Arc User

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  • chivonicachivonica Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    I am looking forward to the upcoming changes to the game in MOD 16.

    Looking back from when I re-joined the game at the 5yr Jubilee after many yrs of hiatus up to Christmas period just past, the game was very toxic imo and not in a good spot play wise at certain points.

    The community is vast in its diversity and nearly always bites its own head off both in game and in the forums.
    All this thread and others are excellent examples of the divide in the player base and are just the tip of what actually happens in the game. This is not just between new/casuals and exp. hardcore players but RPs and everything in-between.

    Discussions on how to "fix" the ZAX were met with silence by many in the know and some even denied that certain things were a problem or even existed. Discussions on if FBI should have its climb slightly nerfd met with memes, berating and belittlement of those players struggling by those of much higher exp./iL/group play. RPs telling PVE/PVP players to suck it up, adapt, deal with it or don't and leave, ahh the memories.

    Now Foundry is gone, soon Everyone will be reduced to near same move speed and work together or fail most times, ZAX/ZEN items (as of yet I believe) still have not been addressed. I do not know if I will like or enjoy MOD16 but at least something is being tried, to what extent that is successful in its purpose(s) remain to be seen but you can be sure that if this isn't "The end of NWO" more changes will follow.

    In the meantime as I mentioned months ago in similar words: Sometimes the effort to get back to where a game previously was might not be worth it and remain flexible by choosing what battles you pick because there may be bigger/more important ones to fight that determine the War so to say.
  • harbtanzerharbtanzer Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    havlocke said:

    It may sound crazy, but I was never into mounts until they made the insignia and powers. I felt the maps were just too small to really find a mount useful and I walked everywhere. As time progressed in the game, I did get some blue and purple mounts. Each mount rank just seemed to have a passing gear in a car, it barely felt like an improvement. By the time I got to the Well of Dragons, I realized the only "real need" for a mount at that time, was to keep up with your group on a Dragon Run. Years went by. When Ravenloft started I did some small HE runs with friends who had their speed jacked. They left me in the dust, I was lucky to get a few dirty licks in at the last minute. Call me old fashioned, but I still don't see any need for speed on these tiny maps.

    Same here. I don't see the need to run thru everything in a dungeon, ignoring everything and just kill the boss and leave. If you find running thru dungeons and the like tedious then this entire genre might not be right for you. DnD is about dungeon crawls and fighting mobs. Not speed racer.

    Then again, I guess its the treadmill aspect of things. They have made it very monotonous to have to repeatedly do the same content again and again so I shouldn't begrudge the people who are running thru the content for possibly the hundredth time ...

    I just realised, we don't have a sprint button in this game do we? Hmm, might be the only MMO I've seen w/o a sprint mode.
    TL;DR: Make the trash mobs valuable to the player base and people will kill them. XP, Gold, and RP trash aren't valuable enough to warrant the time spent killing the trash.

    Here's the need you two aren't seeing (and forgive me if someone else already corrected you) (forgive me further if this seems arrogant but it's the nature of things):

    The developers, various individuals they've been, have made, from the beginning, fatal errors in this game. Some are just the way of things, you can't appease everyone and there are limits to coding, to engines, and technology. The sole reason why veteran players blaze through a dungeon without bothering to kill every thing in sight is because there is absolutely no benefit to those kills once we hit level 70. None. Gold is meaningless in this game for anything but crafting and removal of enchantments. The items that drop off the trash mobs are refinement, low level refinement, at best, at worst, it's just filler for your bags until something decent comes along. But the amount of mobs in, say...Spider, isn't enough to give you but a few hundred RP and a few dozen silver, maybe one or two gold, per run.

    There's no benefit in doing anything but rushing directly from A-Z and devastating the boss in as little time as possible. The only reason trash mobs are killed in places like Spellplague master and Fangbreaker is that you either have no choice because killing them is key to opening the next zone of the dungeon or leaving them alive will allow the dungeon to critical mass the team and kill by sheer numbers. If not for that, every group would speedrun to the top of the ascent in FBI, launch on Hati, devastate him, burn through the caves, clear the dragon turtle and then Drufi, in less than 10 minutes.

    The development crew's answer to this has been to artificially slow groups down. The two minute hold fights in the troll caves on FBI are an example. There's zero benefit to killing the trolls. They drop nothing of value, they do nothing more than provide something to do while that two minute clock winds itself down. They aren't a challenge for any but the weakest groups...and yet, THEY STILL PROVIDE NOTHING OF BENEFIT. EVER.

    Until trash mobs in this game are actually VALUABLE, until there's benefit to be gained from killing them, then veterans will seek to ignore, avoid, and absorb them as much as feasibly possible.

    Thus: Mounts.

    Mounts keep you from having to wade through useless and wasteful encounters with worthless trash mobs.

    The only solution to this is to make the trash valuable. Not gold or junk RP items. There must be a reason to engage them. There must be a benefit to engaging them.

    And the developer's natural instinct would be to create HAMSTER quests that give nothing to force you to kill them. "Kill 20 trolls." "Kill 40 spiders", that sort of malarkey. And still no benefit to the quest, it's just another box to knock off the list.

    The average veteran player isn't gonna waste his or her time with worthless trash that won't give any benefit to the time spent. If the newbs are screwed because they can't avoid the trash, if they feel disheartened, as I once did, by being paired up with a veteran who has better things to do than waste trash for twenty minutes to get to a boss fight that he or she can solo in 45 seconds, then blame the developers for shoddy design and lack of ingenuity.

    And if I knew their names, I'd call them out for their lazy design. My name is Chris Stroud, and I love this game and I love this game environment, I've played a variety of MMOs since 2007, and of them all, this one demonstrates some of the laziest design of any game I've seen yet when it comes to the little things.

    And it's the little things that make or break a game.

    Developers: Either make the trash mobs valuable or remove them and make this one huge boss fight.

    All this requires is adjustment to the drop tables. That's it. And while that may be a mighty task, that's the essential fix.

    Make. Trash. Mobs. Valuable. To. The. Players.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,754 Arc User
    Except that the majority do need RP and Gold. XP just happens.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,184 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    greywynd said:

    Except that the majority do need RP and Gold. XP just happens.

    I am the minority who wants all 3. Actually, for me, XP > Gold > RP. Not because I need that for level. I want that for rAD. Or, rAD just happens. Since I refuse to do RQ, XP has been significant for my rAD income since introduction of RQ. However, there is a major XP nerf (to me) in mod 16 that nobody noticed or cared enough to even talk about it. Now, I need to think if I should start to do RQ once a while. :(
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,754 Arc User
    I find it ironic that some individuals have no problem jumping into a random and ruining the run for others, but how dare someone queue for a dungeon or skirmish and ruin the run for them because the other person is still learning.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
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