Another topic about a way to decrease the huge Zen Market queue

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Comments

  • wintersmoke
    wintersmoke Member Posts: 1,632 Arc User

    greywynd said:

    I wouldn't say no one is buying zen. People probably still are. What they are not doing is dropping any of it into the zax.

    krumple01 said:

    There are players buying zen and a lot of them. The thing is they don't use the ZAX to make their AD. They use the AH by selling zen item packs. Zen is worth more than 500 ad per 1 zen which is why no players use it.

    I've wondered about this from time to time.
    Who's dropping zen into the exchange?

    Is it all coming from players who don't know any better, are simply too impatient, or maybe have money to burn?
    weekend warriors. The get paid on Friday, and buy the AD they need. They often don't play during the week, so they can't babysit the AH.
  • grogthemagnif
    grogthemagnif Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,611 Arc User
    krumple01 said:

    Part of the problem is the artificial $15/hour minimum wage in CA which hugely raises prices, which requires higher wages to pay for the stuff which requires higher wages to pay the newer higher prices, etc. etc.

    Wow someone who actually gets it. Yes you are 100% right on this. Most people think raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour will solve so many problems but it doesn't solve anything. It just makes prices of goods and services go up. For example to those who still don't understand this; Lets say there is a restaurant that currently has a cook being paid $15 dollars as a standard wage for them and the dishwasher makes $10.50 as minimum wage, then they introduce the $15 minimum wage increase.

    Do you think that cook is going to be happy knowing that now the dishwasher makes as much as them? No, they will want a wage increase too and not just a little one, like $16 or $17. So the entire company has to increase everyone's wages, which causes a massive increase in labor costs. So a restaurant like this would either raise their prices on their food, or get rid of how many employees they have. So it causes job losses, and also employers become increasingly more strict on who they hire. The only other option they have if they don't want to raise their prices on food or fire any of their employees is to use lower quality goods, instead of using real beef they use some byproduct HAMSTER that is cheaper to cut their costs.

    NO ONE WINS except the government when they raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour.

    You're right. It's way more than the few who make the minimum wage, it's the many who are making just over the old minimum who want the raise. There was an example, in Denver Colorado at the airport, where union workers (many of whom are behind the minimum 'living' wage movement) helped airport workers get a raise over their pay and when the airprt workers got the pay, then the unions sued for a pay raise (by the way, THEY LOST) and another example where unions in Los Angeles worked for $15.00/hour minimum 'living wage for workers, but exempted union workers from the increase and then in the next contract struck for wages over the $15.00/hour minimum.

    Another example, from Minnesota, a fast food restaurant owner had to cut staff each time the minimum wage was raised to keep his payroll in line with what his business could afford.

    This squeezes the profits for companies.
  • krumple01
    krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User

    krumple01 said:

    Part of the problem is the artificial $15/hour minimum wage in CA which hugely raises prices, which requires higher wages to pay for the stuff which requires higher wages to pay the newer higher prices, etc. etc.

    Wow someone who actually gets it. Yes you are 100% right on this. Most people think raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour will solve so many problems but it doesn't solve anything. It just makes prices of goods and services go up. For example to those who still don't understand this; Lets say there is a restaurant that currently has a cook being paid $15 dollars as a standard wage for them and the dishwasher makes $10.50 as minimum wage, then they introduce the $15 minimum wage increase.

    Do you think that cook is going to be happy knowing that now the dishwasher makes as much as them? No, they will want a wage increase too and not just a little one, like $16 or $17. So the entire company has to increase everyone's wages, which causes a massive increase in labor costs. So a restaurant like this would either raise their prices on their food, or get rid of how many employees they have. So it causes job losses, and also employers become increasingly more strict on who they hire. The only other option they have if they don't want to raise their prices on food or fire any of their employees is to use lower quality goods, instead of using real beef they use some byproduct HAMSTER that is cheaper to cut their costs.

    NO ONE WINS except the government when they raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour.

    You're right. It's way more than the few who make the minimum wage, it's the many who are making just over the old minimum who want the raise. There was an example, in Denver Colorado at the airport, where union workers (many of whom are behind the minimum 'living' wage movement) helped airport workers get a raise over their pay and when the airprt workers got the pay, then the unions sued for a pay raise (by the way, THEY LOST) and another example where unions in Los Angeles worked for $15.00/hour minimum 'living wage for workers, but exempted union workers from the increase and then in the next contract struck for wages over the $15.00/hour minimum.

    Another example, from Minnesota, a fast food restaurant owner had to cut staff each time the minimum wage was raised to keep his payroll in line with what his business could afford.

    This squeezes the profits for companies.
    And it gets worse because if a company needs to get rid of some of its employees to maintain labor costs then those people who lose their job don't immediately get a new job especially if its a complete system wide reduction in jobs. Now you have a bunch of out of work people all competing for another job that doesn't exist. All because people think raising the minimum wage will solve all the problems. A person who loses their job isn't gunna go out and spend money, so the economy also drops off a little. When prices rise people don't go out to restaurants or buy junk they don't need as much. Then when landlords know people are making more at the base level they raise their rent prices because there is technically more money in circulation and they want it.

    Raising the minimum wage makes everything worse not better.

  • grogthemagnif
    grogthemagnif Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,611 Arc User
    And the typical response to you is, "But I want more money for me."
  • greywynd
    greywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,454 Arc User
    Minimum wage, when it was created, was seen as a means to a living wage.

    Company profits? If the company wasn't overpaying all their executives it would a non-issue.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • krumple01
    krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    Minimum wage, when it was created, was seen as a means to a living wage.

    Company profits? If the company wasn't overpaying all their executives it would a non-issue.

    I'm not even talking about executive corporations. I'm talking about franchised restaurants. There will be a wage increase all across the board. This means they will raise their prices to compensate for higher labor costs. When businesses raise their prices no one gets a head which is the premise behind raising the minimum wage to begin with. Rent prices will go up, groceries prices will rise to pay the wage increases for the supermarkets. Do you think all those employees that work at movie theaters that are already getting $15 an hour now wouldn't want more when those who are being paid $10.50 get raised to $15? This means higher ticket prices, popcorn and soda prices go up so the theater can accord the labor costs.

  • greywynd
    greywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,454 Arc User
    Ticket prices get mandated by the distributor. Within the first 2 weeks or so of a new release, the only money a theater really makes is off the concession stand. Which is where most movie goers don't want to spend money.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • xenocide#6119
    xenocide#6119 Member Posts: 251 Arc User
    If you want to decrease the backlog, Maybe allow the players to sell some of the zen market items on the auction house such as.... Enchanted Keys...
  • plasticbat
    plasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,446 Arc User
    edited April 2019

    If you want to decrease the backlog, Maybe allow the players to sell some of the zen market items on the auction house such as.... Enchanted Keys...

    More popular Zen item to be sold in AH will increase the backlog. Enchanted key was allowed to sell in AH and trade between players before. At that time, it took more than 6 months to get Zen. However, I don't know what was the chicken and what was the eggs.
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • regenerde
    regenerde Member Posts: 2,993 Arc User
    Well, the "Spring Currency Sale" might help a little with the backlog... but i'm not counting on it.
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
  • adinosii
    adinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    krumple01 said:


    I am almost certain they are brand new players who are unaware that they can get their AD worth through the AH. It makes sense because they wouldn't know those items can be traded. So the trickle in of zen on the ZAX comes probably from brand new players.

    Probably yes.

    If there was actually a real desire to shrink the ZAX queue, it can be done by cutting the Zen->AH->AD->Zen loop, but at the same keep any incentives for people to actually put money into the game.

    Personally I would do the following:
    • Increase the value of AD, by adding more desirable items to the Bazaar. Those would have to be "new" items that did not compete with existing Zen or trade bar store items. Just to give one example, I would be happy to pay for "companion dyes" - I mean, who doesn't want a pink unicorn mount? ;) Same goes for "unbinding" service that would turn a BtC item into a BtA (BtC on equip) one, so I could transfer valuable items from alts I have stopped playing.
    • Change the Zen store so that if you purchase with Zen converted from AD, purchases that are currently unbound are BtA instead. This would allow F2P players to convert ad to Zen for their own needs, and it would allow those that spend actual money to continue to sell items on the AH.
    • There is one "loophole"....F2P players could buy BtA wards and use those to make (unbound) high-end enchants for sale on the AH. but this will at the very least slow the "loop" down.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • krumple01
    krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    adinosii said:


    If there was actually a real desire to shrink the ZAX queue, it can be done by cutting the Zen->AH->AD->Zen loop, but at the same keep any incentives for people to actually put money into the game.

    One major reason players buy zen with cash is because the AH provides a method for them to get their AD worth of their zen. If you cut this out, you will remove a huge incentive. You would have to replace it with something just as good if not better. But you give no solution as to what incentive players would have to continue dumping cash if the loop was removed.
    adinosii said:


    Change the Zen store so that if you purchase with Zen converted from AD, purchases that are currently unbound are BtA instead.

    The problem with this is that you are essentially going for two types of zen then. They would have to restructure what Zen is for this kind of solution. Because essentially you are talking about flagging zen that was traded with AD. You are suggesting them add checks to what type of zen being spent. Doing this can impact the very reason players would buy zen and if you remove the incentive to buy zen then the opportunity to sell zen also gets reduced.
  • frogwalloper#6494
    frogwalloper#6494 Member Posts: 821 Arc User
    Having two different zens makes me a little nervous. Feels like a step closer to regulating what F2P players can and can't buy on the zen store - though I realize that's not at all what @adinosii is suggesting.
  • wintersmoke
    wintersmoke Member Posts: 1,632 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    Ticket prices get mandated by the distributor. Within the first 2 weeks or so of a new release, the only money a theater really makes is off the concession stand. Which is where most movie goers don't want to spend money.

    If they didn't try to squeeze 5000% profits out of us...
  • robai#6206
    robai#6206 Member Posts: 319 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Currently almost every player gets at least 100k AD daily, which results in players having too much AD. Getting AD is easier these days than it was before.
    This is a reason for a long ZAX queue.

    Also it explains high prices of many things on AH. Several days ago I've sold Alchemist companion for 140K AD, lol (I think it was like 10K couple months ago, because many still had them from winter event).

    This bad economy might be useful to Devs since it's getting harder to get get Zen for free, but on the other hand the value of Zen has dropped since the ones that wants to sell Zen gets the amount of AD that is less valuable since AH prices are higher now.

    To balance this out the cap 500 for 1 Zen could be increased, so that the ones who are desperate to get Zen would pay for it more AD and the ones who buy Zen for real money would have greater benefit (Zen would be more valuable).
    But this would make this game less f2p and the population might drop down (less population = less popular game = less new players = less profit).

    IMO this game needs some real AD sinks:
    - Powerful Consumables (the bonus should be really good, so that it would worth the clicking, not to mention worth paying AD for that)
    - Lottery (something powerful and NOT available elsewhere should drop there, with a super low drop rate of course)
  • regenerde
    regenerde Member Posts: 2,993 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    The reason for AH prices going up and down these days is Mod. 16.

    And no offense, but the game does NOT need another crappy lottery in it. There's more then enough RNG in this game allready, and most players aren't going to dump massive amounts of AD into a lottery unless there's a good chance of getting something usefull in return...

    I'd suggest that decent rare or epic companions should find their way into the Wondrous Bazaar for reasonable prices, that would drain a good portion of the AD currently in circulation right out of the game.
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
  • krumple01
    krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User

    Currently almost every player gets at least 100k AD daily, which results in players having too much AD. Getting AD is easier these days than it was before.
    This is a reason for a long ZAX queue.

    Also it explains high prices of many things on AH. Several days ago I've sold Alchemist companion for 140K AD, lol (I think it was like 10K couple months ago, because many still had them from winter event).

    This bad economy might be useful to Devs since it's getting harder to get get Zen for free, but on the other hand the value of Zen has dropped since the ones that wants to sell Zen gets the amount of AD that is less valuable since AH prices are higher now.

    To balance this out the cap 500 for 1 Zen could be increased, so that the ones who are desperate to get Zen would pay for it more AD and the ones who buy Zen for real money would have greater benefit (Zen would be more valuable).
    But this would make this game less f2p and the population might drop down (less population = less popular game = less new players = less profit).

    IMO this game needs some real AD sinks:
    - Powerful Consumables (the bonus should be really good, so that it would worth the clicking, not to mention worth paying AD for that)
    - Lottery (something powerful and NOT available elsewhere should drop there, with a super low drop rate of course)

    Finally a person here gets it and understands it. Most on the forum totally disagree with what you have said here. I agree with you. However; they want to price fix, force players at a cap for certain items or prevent zen traded on the exchange from being used to buy item packs or make those pack bought with ZAX zen BTA but allow direct cash purchases of zen open to sell on the AH.

    Their solutions are terrible and they completely ignore the incentive of why a player drops cash into the game. They forget about this motivation. All the price fixing or dumping onto the bazaar do nothing but remove the incentive to spend cash.

    You are 100% right about the value of zen, its worth more than 500 ad per 1 zen.

    The only way to solve this without raising the ZAX cap is to remove the amount of AD or reduce the cap amount of daily refinement of rough AD. Reduce it to 50k or even lower. It wouldn't be a quick fix and new players would be hurt the most by this.

    I prefer the idea of either raising the ZAX cap or by adding in meaningful AD sinks. The Workshop upgrade for 5 million ad is not even worth 500k ad let alone 5million ad. Its a silly amount and I bet some players are upset they spent that now that their masterwork are taking a back seat in mod 16.

    They just haven't put in any meaningful AD sinks yet.

  • robai#6206
    robai#6206 Member Posts: 319 Arc User
    regenerde said:


    And no offense, but the game does NOT need another crappy lottery in it. There's more then enough RNG in this game allready, and most players aren't going to dump massive amounts of AD into a lottery unless there's a good chance of getting something usefull in return...

    We don't have a lottery that gives something unique. This is a big difference.
    For example, a mythic mount would be a good candidate (the important part is that it should not be available anywhere else).

  • havlocke
    havlocke Member Posts: 222 Arc User
    I was going to dismiss this idea until I only just realised that STO does have a "AD sink". It's the Phoenix Boxes. Each box does not cost much so you can buy a LOT of them. And while the odds of getting an Epic reward is low, even the lowest reward is still useful. And as you are blowing bucketloads into the RNG machine, it will suck the AD out of the system. It works really well in STO. Might not be a bad idea after all.
  • krumple01
    krumple01 Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    havlocke said:

    I was going to dismiss this idea until I only just realised that STO does have a "AD sink". It's the Phoenix Boxes. Each box does not cost much so you can buy a LOT of them. And while the odds of getting an Epic reward is low, even the lowest reward is still useful. And as you are blowing bucketloads into the RNG machine, it will suck the AD out of the system. It works really well in STO. Might not be a bad idea after all.

    This would have worked in mod 15. But not in mod 16, because there are only two real things they could introduce at this moment. Companions or Mounts, but the problem in mod 16 is how little of an impact either do. They would have to introduce a companion or mount that essentially breaks the game because it actually provides a significant bonus. If they just keep introducing the same mediocre companions or mounts no one will buy them. Just look at the Basilisk mount, it provided no real incentive to buy so practically no players bought it and it wasn't cheap.

  • havlocke
    havlocke Member Posts: 222 Arc User
    krumple01 said:

    havlocke said:

    I was going to dismiss this idea until I only just realised that STO does have a "AD sink". It's the Phoenix Boxes. Each box does not cost much so you can buy a LOT of them. And while the odds of getting an Epic reward is low, even the lowest reward is still useful. And as you are blowing bucketloads into the RNG machine, it will suck the AD out of the system. It works really well in STO. Might not be a bad idea after all.

    This would have worked in mod 15. But not in mod 16, because there are only two real things they could introduce at this moment. Companions or Mounts, but the problem in mod 16 is how little of an impact either do. They would have to introduce a companion or mount that essentially breaks the game because it actually provides a significant bonus. If they just keep introducing the same mediocre companions or mounts no one will buy them. Just look at the Basilisk mount, it provided no real incentive to buy so practically no players bought it and it wasn't cheap.

    Yeah, thats true, because the top end rewards of the P'boxes are ships. Which are completely different from Mounts in this game. Still, a funky mount or companion might still be something to aspire to. And even if people realise the odds of getting it are slim, they will still spend the money. That's how Lotto works after all. They need to make sure that the non-top end rewards are still something to aspire to though.

    The Upgrade tokens (which are essentially what the bottom end rewards get turned into) in STO are worth MORE than the 4k dilithium each box would have cost you. If you priced a (theoretical) NWO Phoenix Box to be worth 4k AD, the bottom end rewards would have to be worth more than 20k refinement points (just a WAG here). And that would skew everything else. Note that all Phoenix rewards are BtA.