Remorhaz struck again. This time though when I aborted the mission using GM help, the mission was reported as failed, but because I had all 9 Relics it was "completed" as well for the 3x daily aspect and removed from the quest list. This prevents receipt of the reward for the quest or restarting the quest. This is a critical problem for a quest with limited attempts.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
But since private playtesting, Expeditions have not been working. Here we are April 5th, about 2 weeks left until the modules release, and they still don't work. I'm starting to expect the worse from this module, and I really don't want that.
Expeditions, are part of the content needed to progress through the campaign, and the module itself. Will these be addressed in the next patch, next week? or something...
Nova - Thaumaturge Wizard Bardtholomew - Minstrel Bard Mariah Carries - Devout Cleric Darth Bane - Thaumaturge Wizard on Xbox
the earlier resonances are not recognized in the attunement crystals. I dropped the quest risk vs reward and picked it up again from the runemaster. Got fresh resonances that worked in the attunement crystal. Chest opened and I finally got a runic etching.
Next yellow quest is to get a runic orb from the runemasters shop, but you need 5 etchings of the same type. I don't know how to get more resonances for conversion in the attunement crystals. I'll try some runic encounters tomorrow.
1
arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
Just did a few runic encounters and the unstable resonances are still not dropping, so once we complete the risk vs. reward, there is no way to progress.
the "unstable" resonances are needed for the quest before risk vs reward (forgot the name). After that I guess no more "unstable" will drop. After risk vs reward you'll need resonances, but not the unstable ones.
i dropped RvR. Got it fresh. It appeared that i received new resonances but when I entered the exp to convert them I had no choices. I could not find resonance in inventory.
1
arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
edited April 2019
From what I understand, you need to collect the unstable resonances from the Runic encounters, from combining 3 of each type, you get the things you add to expeditions to improve rewards and difficulty, you get a runic etching from the chest and once you have 5 of a type of etching you trade that in for orbs to awaken certain items that you use to restore the armor from the Lair of the Mad Mage. Would be nice if this received more attention from the devs so we can test out the content more fully.
i have 4 toons on preview, 3 i got to the expedituions last week, but now even after dropping, relog and retake the quest i'm still unable to set the cristal at the start
the last one is stuck on Gathering the unstable resonance, cant get a single drop...
I believe characters who had Risk or Reward quest active when they made the update, can no longer get resonance when they drop the quest and retake it. It might be bringing the quantity to a negative number after you drop the quest? not sure.
the earlier resonances are not recognized in the attunement crystals. I dropped the quest risk vs reward and picked it up again from the runemaster. Got fresh resonances that worked in the attunement crystal. Chest opened and I finally got a runic etching.
Next yellow quest is to get a runic orb from the runemasters shop, but you need 5 etchings of the same type. I don't know how to get more resonances for conversion in the attunement crystals. I'll try some runic encounters tomorrow.
If, only you will provide the forum which crystal it was what gave you pass trough the quest.. It would help the Dev's to get a pointer to look deeper into this quest to see what the culprit is which causes this problem.
the earlier resonances are not recognized in the attunement crystals. I dropped the quest risk vs reward and picked it up again from the runemaster. Got fresh resonances that worked in the attunement crystal. Chest opened and I finally got a runic etching.
Next yellow quest is to get a runic orb from the runemasters shop, but you need 5 etchings of the same type. I don't know how to get more resonances for conversion in the attunement crystals. I'll try some runic encounters tomorrow.
If, only you will provide the forum which crystal it was what gave you pass trough the quest.. It would help the Dev's to get a pointer to look deeper into this quest to see what the culprit is which causes this problem.
I got 10x Balance resonances which I didn't have before in my inventory. Attunement crystals worked with theses, but I didn't get a set for new resonances from the chest. Only one runic etching. Also, like other said, I didn't see the resonances in my inventory. I only saw it in the protocol chat.
Looks like some people are not getting workable resonances when they drop risk vs reward and take it again. Maybe try to discard all resonances that you have in you wealth tab before you drop the quest. Maybe it doesn't work when you get fresh resonances of a type that you already have.
I did 2 runic encounters today but didn't get any fresh resonances. Can someone please confirm if this is the right place to get new ones.
I cannot complete the "Risk versus Reward" quest because I cannot collect a Runic Etching.
I cannot collect a Runic Etching because I cannot open the final chest.
I cannot open the final chest, unless I used at least one of the attunement crystals
I cannot use the attunement crystals, because I cannot make Crystallized Resonance
I cannot make Crystallized resonance, despite having for example 10 "Resonance: Balance", because that option is greyed out.
This pretty much sums it up, but must add one point on this list. I cannot make a Crystallized resonance due the fact that the needed resonances is not appearing in inventory after accepting the quest..
My advise to Dev's is to go completely trough this quest (from start to finish) by digging into the code for eventually loopholes where the quest progress might become trapped..
Even if it takes that this quest is temporally taken out the campaign for solid testing purposes by themselves because I can imagine that Dev's have sometimes a hard time to discover the error completely on the info what players provide to them. Even if it takes that this triggering a delay on bringing Mod16 to live server while I am aware that Dev's are feeling the hot breath of their superiors in their back by forcing them to bring it alive.
It's better to bring a solid Mod to live instead of indirect triggering a bottleneck (by a faulty quest) when it's implemented.
note. I am completely with the Dev's in this and it's my opinion that they should stand firm towards their superiors. I also believe that more people should focus more on quest related issues instead of bickering about the loss of their un-godly DPS output (which they are spoiled with on current live server) because (somehow) they feel themselves entitled to keep those DPS outputs in new Mod (something I read on all the separate class sections on this forum)..
the earlier resonances are not recognized in the attunement crystals. I dropped the quest risk vs reward and picked it up again from the runemaster. Got fresh resonances that worked in the attunement crystal. Chest opened and I finally got a runic etching.
Next yellow quest is to get a runic orb from the runemasters shop, but you need 5 etchings of the same type. I don't know how to get more resonances for conversion in the attunement crystals. I'll try some runic encounters tomorrow.
If, only you will provide the forum which crystal it was what gave you pass trough the quest.. It would help the Dev's to get a pointer to look deeper into this quest to see what the culprit is which causes this problem.
I got 10x Balance resonances which I didn't have before in my inventory. Attunement crystals worked with theses, but I didn't get a set for new resonances from the chest. Only one runic etching. Also, like other said, I didn't see the resonances in my inventory. I only saw it in the protocol chat.
Looks like some people are not getting workable resonances when they drop risk vs reward and take it again. Maybe try to discard all resonances that you have in you wealth tab before you drop the quest. Maybe it doesn't work when you get fresh resonances of a type that you already have.
I did 2 runic encounters today but didn't get any fresh resonances. Can someone please confirm if this is the right place to get new ones.
Thanks for response, this might be a useful pointer towards Dev's combined with the remark Zimxero made about possible negative number counting.
My RvR quest is also not working. Before this last patch I was able to get Resonances from the lady. I would accept the quest and see what random type of resonance she would give me. I would see what type of stones she dropped and if i didn't want that type i would drop the quest and keep repeating until I received the stones I wanted. After this latest patch, I had the quest active but, don't know if i had a stone from her or not. I dropped the quest and saw her. I repeated accepting and dropping the quest until I got the stones I wanted. I did not look in my inventory to see if they were there. When downstairs. At the pedestal's the options were all grayed out. I exited, dropped the quest, repeated until I got the stone's I wanted. Tried again and the pedestals were still gray. Now, i look in my inventory and do not see the stones, I did have a message that I was given 10 whatever's when I accepted the quest. I tried several more times with the same result.
Question for anyone who knows. How is this quest supposed to work when working properly? Are we supposed to collect pieces of something up from the HS's, then trade those to her for resonances? Do we get a random type from her or can we pick? Then we (maybe, small chance) get a Runic Etching (that we'll need many of) from the chest at the end to refine armor found somewhere? Is that about right?
the earlier resonances are not recognized in the attunement crystals. I dropped the quest risk vs reward and picked it up again from the runemaster. Got fresh resonances that worked in the attunement crystal. Chest opened and I finally got a runic etching.
Next yellow quest is to get a runic orb from the runemasters shop, but you need 5 etchings of the same type. I don't know how to get more resonances for conversion in the attunement crystals. I'll try some runic encounters tomorrow.
If, only you will provide the forum which crystal it was what gave you pass trough the quest.. It would help the Dev's to get a pointer to look deeper into this quest to see what the culprit is which causes this problem.
I got 10x Balance resonances which I didn't have before in my inventory. Attunement crystals worked with theses, but I didn't get a set for new resonances from the chest. Only one runic etching. Also, like other said, I didn't see the resonances in my inventory. I only saw it in the protocol chat.
Looks like some people are not getting workable resonances when they drop risk vs reward and take it again. Maybe try to discard all resonances that you have in you wealth tab before you drop the quest. Maybe it doesn't work when you get fresh resonances of a type that you already have.
I did 2 runic encounters today but didn't get any fresh resonances. Can someone please confirm if this is the right place to get new ones.
well, i dropped RvR repeatedly until I got 10 balance and went inside to no avail. Conversion was not an option for me.
On the good news front the Remorhaz is no longer bugged!
I tried completing the quest yesterday with an old copy of the toon, then like everyone else I couldn't get it to work. So I deleted and made a clean copy of the toon. I have now made it back to Boundless Corruption.
In Boundless Corruption the Ruined Artifact dropped from a mob in a HE, but no Unstable Resonances are dropping at all.
I appreciate that these HEs are solo content, that's actually a good thing, but the fact they are just not working is a concern.
I also find it incredibly annoying that they are scaled content, instead of being level 80 content. No one under level 80 has a reason to enter them at all, but level 80 players will be trying to farm them at least until mod17 drops and it would be much better if they were not burdened by the problems that the scaling system has.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
There seems to be an issue with the Manticore boss, he gets big and seems to be tougher with more hp than other bosses.
Also, since this hasn't been addressed by now: the map that occurs at the "end" of an expedition zone/level with the pier and boat in the cavern with the mushroom hill to the left... the character is free to roam in the water. Only companions get hit with the piranhas. There's a cave that can allow the character to fall off the map too.
I've almost completed the campaign twice and have yet to find out anything about the runic stuff that goes with master expeditions.. Reading this thread makes it seem like there's a quest that I missed so I'll have to go back and look but it seems a major part of the new endgame and easily missed.
In Boundless Corruption the Ruined Artifact dropped from a mob in a HE, but no Unstable Resonances are dropping at all.
I appreciate that these HEs are solo content, that's actually a good thing, but the fact they are just not working is a concern.
After going back to look, I did have the initial quest that "explains" the runic dealings. However, all that is quoted above is what I'm finding too. I get the artifact to drop (which I'm asked to "restore" but can only "refine" btw) but nothing else. Is it supposed to drop with the refine bar on the inventory icon full? Some of the encounters can be tough to solo due to the clunky scaling system still.
@skrewfaz3d#1482 yes it is supposed to drop ready to refine/restore, that is WAI. You need the Alpha, Beta etc essences to use as the materials to refine/restore it, which are not not dropping.
I do have toons that I have been able to get that to work on in prior weeks.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
3rd expedition, was scaled up to level 76 from 75. 865kHP(afterward while turning in quest was 406kHP), and stats again way up, tho not evenly. Reward was same as last expedition, Ring of Lords, so 2 of those and the ring of the Guard as well?
The previous quest, last for dragon, gave me a second dusty ring, was that a bug now I have 2?
Upscale seems broken too, unless upscale to demigod?
Got my runes to work after I dropped the Risk vs Reward quest and picked it up again. I gotta say, the devs need to include a flamethrower and probably a big can of Weed-B-Gon for that stinking Ancient Shambling Mound when it pops up using an Empowered rune. Made the mistake of running my 18+K Oathkeeper through an expedition solo. Up until that fight, everything was fine. The mobs were more challenging than on normal but not overwhelming. Then, he showed up and proceeded to wreck my toon for 15 minutes. After three wipes I leapt off the ledge and called it a night. Not enough damage to push him past his second bar of health before he would get an 80K self heal with its Enriched Patch. Don't know what they're feeding that beastie but they need to stop.
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO) Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
1
arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
With today's new patch, we still cannot gain unstable resonance from runic encounters, which means I am unable to apply runes to expeditions after completing the Risk vs. Reward quest.
I dropped the old quest and restarted, worked fine. (Note they are colours now, not Greek letters.)
While I have been able to collect Runic Essence both before and after getting the first Runic Etching there does seem to be a problem with their drop rate.
I spent a good hour running the HEs and I ended up with 13... (8 Sacrifice, 3 Balance, and 2 Chaos).
Sometimes they seemed to drop reliably if you killed the right critter, sometimes if you just stood there they dropped (reported by guild member), sometimes just hitting anything dropped them, but mostly they did not drop.
Given you need 10 of 1 to get 1 Runic Essence and you need 5 of each runic essence for each Rune-Etched Sphere, this clearly isn't going to work. That's before we start talking about the number of them you need to upgrade a single bit of gear.
They need to rain from the sky like confetti to actually work as a resource as you need 1000s of them.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Ris> @skrewfaz3d#1482 said: > There seems to be an issue with the Manticore boss, he gets big and seems to be tougher with more hp than other bosses. > > Also, since this hasn't been addressed by now: the map that occurs at the "end" of an expedition zone/level with the pier and boat in the cavern with the mushroom hill to the left... the character is free to roam in the water. Only companions get hit with the piranhas. There's a cave that can allow the character to fall off the map too. > > I've almost completed the campaign twice and have yet to find out anything about the runic stuff that goes with master expeditions.. Reading this thread makes it seem like there's a quest that I missed so I'll have to go back and look but it seems a major part of the new endgame and easily missed.
Runic stuff seems to explained well at Risk vs Reward stage but the order of the blue text explaining the steps is wrong. (I.e first step listed fourth or so).
Again, the cavern map that ends with the boss near a dock with boat on the right... Player still able to go "deep sea diving" right off the map.
Edit: I agree with obsidian the unstable ones were dropping at a decent rate. Got those in no time but the stable ones take considerable time to gather in relation. I ran a couple of encounters before trying an expedition and didn't have enough after I went in without checking (assumed I had enough). Once in the initial stage where you activate the runes I realized I needed more so I left, which by the way, failed an expedition I really didn't even start which is a trash concept.
Master Expedition: Remorahz final boss, glitches out... again after 4 bars of health are taken away and never returns. I am unable to leave the expedition..
does anyone how to leave when there's no door to leave? lol im stuck in here now.
Edit: Found a way out, now the etchings or whatever I got from the Risk vs Reward quest has been wasted. lol
Nova - Thaumaturge Wizard Bardtholomew - Minstrel Bard Mariah Carries - Devout Cleric Darth Bane - Thaumaturge Wizard on Xbox
I got Risk v. Reward to work finally for the first time.
Have not been able to collect any more resonances. I assume they are supposed to drop in runic HE's but I have not seen any. Also scaling in HE's makes them a nightmare.
0
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
The HEs are...problematic. The extreme regeneration of some of the mobs makes them a pain to solo.
Comments
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
But since private playtesting, Expeditions have not been working. Here we are April 5th, about 2 weeks left until the modules release, and they still don't work. I'm starting to expect the worse from this module, and I really don't want that.
Expeditions, are part of the content needed to progress through the campaign, and the module itself.
Will these be addressed in the next patch, next week? or something...
Bardtholomew - Minstrel Bard
Mariah Carries - Devout Cleric
Darth Bane - Thaumaturge Wizard on Xbox
Discord ◆ Youtube ◆ Twitter ◆ Twitch
- I cannot complete the "Risk versus Reward" quest because I cannot collect a Runic Etching.
- I cannot collect a Runic Etching because I cannot open the final chest.
- I cannot open the final chest, unless I used at least one of the attunement crystals
- I cannot use the attunement crystals, because I cannot make Crystallized Resonance
- I cannot make Crystallized resonance, despite having for example 10 "Resonance: Balance", because that option is greyed out.
Result. I am stuck...or am I missing something? Quite frankly, this is not a well explained quest line.Bardtholomew - Minstrel Bard
Mariah Carries - Devout Cleric
Darth Bane - Thaumaturge Wizard on Xbox
Discord ◆ Youtube ◆ Twitter ◆ Twitch
Next yellow quest is to get a runic orb from the runemasters shop, but you need 5 etchings of the same type. I don't know how to get more resonances for conversion in the attunement crystals. I'll try some runic encounters tomorrow.
the last one is stuck on Gathering the unstable resonance, cant get a single drop...
It would help the Dev's to get a pointer to look deeper into this quest to see what the culprit is which causes this problem.
Looks like some people are not getting workable resonances when they drop risk vs reward and take it again. Maybe try to discard all resonances that you have in you wealth tab before you drop the quest. Maybe it doesn't work when you get fresh resonances of a type that you already have.
I did 2 runic encounters today but didn't get any fresh resonances. Can someone please confirm if this is the right place to get new ones.
I cannot make a Crystallized resonance due the fact that the needed resonances is not appearing in inventory after accepting the quest..
My advise to Dev's is to go completely trough this quest (from start to finish) by digging into the code for eventually loopholes where the quest progress might become trapped..
Even if it takes that this quest is temporally taken out the campaign for solid testing purposes by themselves because I can imagine that Dev's have sometimes a hard time to discover the error completely on the info what players provide to them.
Even if it takes that this triggering a delay on bringing Mod16 to live server while I am aware that Dev's are feeling the hot breath of their superiors in their back by forcing them to bring it alive.
It's better to bring a solid Mod to live instead of indirect triggering a bottleneck (by a faulty quest) when it's implemented.
note.
I am completely with the Dev's in this and it's my opinion that they should stand firm towards their superiors.
I also believe that more people should focus more on quest related issues instead of bickering about the loss of their un-godly DPS output (which they are spoiled with on current live server) because (somehow) they feel themselves entitled to keep those DPS outputs in new Mod (something I read on all the separate class sections on this forum)..
my two cents
Before this last patch I was able to get Resonances from the lady. I would accept the quest and see what random type of resonance she would give me.
I would see what type of stones she dropped and if i didn't want that type i would drop the quest and keep repeating until I received the stones I wanted.
After this latest patch, I had the quest active but, don't know if i had a stone from her or not. I dropped the quest and saw her. I repeated accepting and dropping the quest until I got the stones I wanted. I did not look in my inventory to see if they were there.
When downstairs. At the pedestal's the options were all grayed out. I exited, dropped the quest, repeated until I got the stone's I wanted. Tried again and the pedestals were still gray. Now, i look in my inventory and do not see the stones, I did have a message that I was given 10 whatever's when I accepted the quest. I tried several more times with the same result.
Question for anyone who knows. How is this quest supposed to work when working properly? Are we supposed to collect pieces of something up from the HS's, then trade those to her for resonances? Do we get a random type from her or can we pick? Then we (maybe, small chance) get a Runic Etching (that we'll need many of) from the chest at the end to refine armor found somewhere?
Is that about right?
I tried completing the quest yesterday with an old copy of the toon, then like everyone else I couldn't get it to work. So I deleted and made a clean copy of the toon. I have now made it back to Boundless Corruption.
In Boundless Corruption the Ruined Artifact dropped from a mob in a HE, but no Unstable Resonances are dropping at all.
I appreciate that these HEs are solo content, that's actually a good thing, but the fact they are just not working is a concern.
I also find it incredibly annoying that they are scaled content, instead of being level 80 content. No one under level 80 has a reason to enter them at all, but level 80 players will be trying to farm them at least until mod17 drops and it would be much better if they were not burdened by the problems that the scaling system has.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Also, since this hasn't been addressed by now: the map that occurs at the "end" of an expedition zone/level with the pier and boat in the cavern with the mushroom hill to the left... the character is free to roam in the water. Only companions get hit with the piranhas. There's a cave that can allow the character to fall off the map too.
I've almost completed the campaign twice and have yet to find out anything about the runic stuff that goes with master expeditions.. Reading this thread makes it seem like there's a quest that I missed so I'll have to go back and look but it seems a major part of the new endgame and easily missed.
You need the Alpha, Beta etc essences to use as the materials to refine/restore it, which are not not dropping.
I do have toons that I have been able to get that to work on in prior weeks.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Looks like QA forgot to revert to the player version of the code....
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
The previous quest, last for dragon, gave me a second dusty ring, was that a bug now I have 2?
Upscale seems broken too, unless upscale to demigod?
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
While I have been able to collect Runic Essence both before and after getting the first Runic Etching there does seem to be a problem with their drop rate.
I spent a good hour running the HEs and I ended up with 13... (8 Sacrifice, 3 Balance, and 2 Chaos).
Sometimes they seemed to drop reliably if you killed the right critter, sometimes if you just stood there they dropped (reported by guild member), sometimes just hitting anything dropped them, but mostly they did not drop.
Given you need 10 of 1 to get 1 Runic Essence and you need 5 of each runic essence for each Rune-Etched Sphere, this clearly isn't going to work. That's before we start talking about the number of them you need to upgrade a single bit of gear.
They need to rain from the sky like confetti to actually work as a resource as you need 1000s of them.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
> There seems to be an issue with the Manticore boss, he gets big and seems to be tougher with more hp than other bosses.
>
> Also, since this hasn't been addressed by now: the map that occurs at the "end" of an expedition zone/level with the pier and boat in the cavern with the mushroom hill to the left... the character is free to roam in the water. Only companions get hit with the piranhas. There's a cave that can allow the character to fall off the map too.
>
> I've almost completed the campaign twice and have yet to find out anything about the runic stuff that goes with master expeditions.. Reading this thread makes it seem like there's a quest that I missed so I'll have to go back and look but it seems a major part of the new endgame and easily missed.
Runic stuff seems to explained well at Risk vs Reward stage but the order of the blue text explaining the steps is wrong. (I.e first step listed fourth or so).
Again, the cavern map that ends with the boss near a dock with boat on the right... Player still able to go "deep sea diving" right off the map.
Edit: I agree with obsidian the unstable ones were dropping at a decent rate. Got those in no time but the stable ones take considerable time to gather in relation. I ran a couple of encounters before trying an expedition and didn't have enough after I went in without checking (assumed I had enough). Once in the initial stage where you activate the runes I realized I needed more so I left, which by the way, failed an expedition I really didn't even start which is a trash concept.
I am unable to leave the expedition..
does anyone how to leave when there's no door to leave? lol im stuck in here now.
Edit: Found a way out, now the etchings or whatever I got from the Risk vs Reward quest has been wasted. lol
Bardtholomew - Minstrel Bard
Mariah Carries - Devout Cleric
Darth Bane - Thaumaturge Wizard on Xbox
Discord ◆ Youtube ◆ Twitter ◆ Twitch
Have not been able to collect any more resonances. I assume they are supposed to drop in runic HE's but I have not seen any. Also scaling in HE's makes them a nightmare.