If the answer for devout to do well in solo content is to run a feat that gives them 20% bonus damage when solo i am going to scream in frustration.
once arbiters get their damage boosted they will be in a fine place. I guess balancing them for damage while they are not running bastion makes sense since then they get stronger while not running it - since we don't have dedicated powers slotted in dedicated slots.
devout just feel dull atm. i just see their identity as glorified healbot atm. Everyone's comments just kinda cement that further. "of course they are going to be slower in content. they can heal." "they can;t do everything. That's what loadouts are for - just swap."
"tanks can kill beat things to death in pvp. and they are tanky"
maybe what the devout needs are bonus abilities from their feats when the solo class feature is active. And give that class feature out at level 1.
I get the feeling the current dev team doesn't really care that much about solo play or solo players. There has been an obvious push to get more people to play with other people in MOD16. I have also noticed is that much of our questions about solo play is either ignored or met with disingenuous replies that say something like "well, NW is a MMO". I just don't understand why they are doing this other than perhaps they feel if more people play together it will be more competitive and people will spend Zen to keep up? IDK. It baffles me.
I'm convinced that all of the dev's decisions can be explained if you take into account one thing: control. They want to control what we are capable of, so that they can easily balance new content around that. The more options they leave us, the more ability scores and feat interactions and powers there are, the more likely it becomes that someone will find something they haven't thought of. With everything limited in the way they are becoming, all focus shifts to mechanics instead of player ingenuity.
Honestly, I can sympathize with the devs on that front. They are the DM where their players are the troublemakers constantly finding methods that they didn't prepare for, and just like in a real life PnP D&D session with an unimaginative DM, the game is suffering for it. At the same time, I'm a player that enjoys that aspect of D&D. I should be constantly pushed to work within the confines of the rules to succeed. I'm sad to see an end to an era, because I think the richest D&D games occur when a DM not only can prepare for many eventualities, but adapt to the desires of their players. In this case, our will has been heard, and deemed completely unacceptable, so the devs are changing the rules mid-game.
If that is the case, they are gonna control themselves right out of a player base. It's no fun and as I have pointed out in other posts, it's tedious and very unrewarding. If this was a Table Top game I'd use the ol' adage that they are just creating their own fan fiction with other people's players. If people can't feel free to differentiate themselves from the pack, there will be no motivation to spend Zen and the game is done.
If that is the case, they are gonna control themselves right out of a player base. It's no fun and as I have pointed out in other posts, it's tedious and very unrewarding. If this was a Table Top game I'd use the ol' adage that they are just creating their own fan fiction with other people's players. If people can't feel free to differentiate themselves from the pack, there will be no motivation to spend Zen and the game is done.
I completely agree. I've been trying to give feedback and advice in line with the parameters they have said they want to move the game towards, but I have to admit I'm not enthusiastic about nor even convinced that I will be playing in mod 16. Even having every class at 15k+, I just don't like the direction they are going. Dungeons used to feel like... an action show like the Power Rangers. All the trash battles were us training to work together, and the bosses were us combining into a Megazord and blasting the boss into oblivion. We combined all our powers into a megacannon and wasted the boss. Even during CR, which was the dev's final attempt to build a dungeon that actively pushed this playstyle, there were moments where we got to use our "ultimate form".
This new version of Neverwinter leaves me feeling like I'm watching an episode of the Power Rangers where they never even bother to summon their Zords, much less combine into a Megazord. We're all average adventurers beating bosses into submission with sticks. Initially I was really excited to hear what kinds of changes they had in store for us, but seeing the plan in action I have even less enthusiasm for the game than I did before. There's minimal character progression, minimal character individuality, and I went from feeling uber to feeling average. I didn't sign up to investing years of time and resources to end up with something barely better than average. It's just... sad.
Dungeons used to feel like... an action show like the Power Rangers. All the trash battles were us training to work together, and the bosses were us combining into a Megazord and blasting the boss into oblivion. We combined all our powers into a megacannon and wasted the boss. Even during CR, which was the dev's final attempt to build a dungeon that actively pushed this playstyle, there were moments where we got to use our "ultimate form".
This new version of Neverwinter leaves me feeling like I'm watching an episode of the Power Rangers where they never even bother to summon their Zords, much less combine into a Megazord. We're all average adventurers beating bosses into submission with sticks. Initially I was really excited to hear what kinds of changes they had in store for us, but seeing the plan in action I have even less enthusiasm for the game than I did before. There's minimal character progression, minimal character individuality, and I went from feeling uber to feeling average. I didn't sign up to investing years of time and resources to end up with something barely better than average. It's just... sad.
I actually really like your feedback, but to play devil's advocate and run with your analogy, much of the fun and all of the dramatic tension is lost in this Power Rangers episode when the big bad is unceremoniously crushed by all of our (buffing) powers combined within a 10-20 second window, which is what has been happening more and more.
The unfortunate part of these changes is that players who didn't regularly experience the severe balance problem at end-game are going to be left wondering why these changes were made at all. If they took 5 minutes to kill Orcus in CN or struggled to meet the DPS check at the Arcolith in CR, they probably don't see the need for the overhaul. I do think it's necessary to start this way, though, to have the best shot at preserving the health of the game over the next few years and onward.
Finally, I think we also need to keep in mind that 80 is literally the new 70, and we are all going to be new max level characters once again. The devs will need to leave a healthy amount of room in the equipment design for players to continue to improve on their stats with further updates, so I don't expect that we are going to hit the pinnacle of effectiveness in every possible way just by snatching up whatever equipment is the top tier for this very first mod at level 80.
All of that being said, my outlook is becoming more positive for what the gameplay experience might be at M16 launch. Seeing a lot of good discussion, feedback, and updates partly in response to that feedback.
If the answer for devout to do well in solo content is to run a feat that gives them 20% bonus damage when solo i am going to scream in frustration.
once arbiters get their damage boosted they will be in a fine place. I guess balancing them for damage while they are not running bastion makes sense since then they get stronger while not running it - since we don't have dedicated powers slotted in dedicated slots.
devout just feel dull atm. i just see their identity as glorified healbot atm. Everyone's comments just kinda cement that further. "of course they are going to be slower in content. they can heal." "they can;t do everything. That's what loadouts are for - just swap."
"tanks can kill beat things to death in pvp. and they are tanky"
maybe what the devout needs are bonus abilities from their feats when the solo class feature is active. And give that class feature out at level 1.
If Arbiter gets upped to the other DPS classes and Devout is 70% of that I think it will be fine actually. 70% of a DPS is more then Arbiter during the last weeks which is mostly enough to run campaigns.
I think Devout could use an additional mechanic to generate divinity like gaining divinity when healing or dealing damage, whatever works best and is at least semi-reliable. Something rewarding for doing your job or taking a risk (trying to deal damage instead of only healing).
I actually really like your feedback, but to play devil's advocate and run with your analogy, much of the fun and all of the dramatic tension is lost in this Power Rangers episode when the big bad is unceremoniously crushed by all of our (buffing) powers combined within a 10-20 second window, which is what has been happening more and more.
Maybe it's just me but I think boss fights are the best part of this game.
For maxed teams on live you would need a dungeon similar in length to T9 but with at least 5 bosses and/or a change to how boss phases work so you basically fight multiple bosses one after another. Elite versions of dungeons is something many people have asked for. Scaling, at least how it works on live, is the worst solution to this in my opinion.
Really depends on what your idea of fun is. Some people like max roflstomping everything in a matter of seconds. Some people like strategy and coordination. Some people don't care either way as long as the result is a reward.
> @victorwayne said: > Searing Light: Still has the same problem as always, it's hard to position mobs properly to get the most out of it. Have you guys considered giving it the Sudden Storm treatment?
This is an interesting suggestion as many have complained about the actual utility of Searing Light and trying to hit enemies in a line. With a Sudden Storm mechanic it could be more of an aoe cone and even have a different animation like a meteor shower of light. Maybe rename it Light Storm
> - Flame Strike losing its knock-up is unfortunate, because it was just fun.
Shucks Flame Strike is my favorite Cleric power!!! Please consider returning the knock-up. I love it and I'm sure other Clerics do as well
This is a minor point, but I totally agree. Clerics spend most of the game dancing the Macarena with a holy symbol waving around. Not very cool visuals. Every now and then it is very satisfying for a Cleric to yell
"Suprise, motherHAMSTER!"
and have a bad-HAMSTER NUKE VFX that blasts the mob 30 feet in the air. lol Love it!
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
> @eolee said: > -I want to protect my tank, my melee dps but astral shield is tedious to cast and use (i mean, compare it to circle of power of Oathkeeper, now we talk about fluidity, why not doing something similar for us???)
This is a great suggestion as there have been several complaints about using astral shield.
I doubt very much that we're going to get much more. With such a short time left, I imagine the majority of development time will be spent trying to get the big systems fixed and running. At least cleric is in a better spot than some of the other classes.
Same i dont think much will happen happen anymore but who knows.
For what i can tell is that if things stay pretty much as they are now the area of the Cleric might be over.
Warlock heals enough and buffs better in heal specc and does more dps on dmg specc.
Pala buffs less but seems to be have the upperhand in heal mitigation and fluid gameplay
Dunno hope im wrong
1
kieranmtornMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 382Arc User
I'm pretty much in the same boat on my DC alt, I have no interest in playing a healbot. I've got geared dps toons I play if I want to play dps, but I enjoyed buffing/mitigating using my DC. Since that play style will soon be dead, I'll probably strip my DC of her enchants, and either sell them or move them to another toon (leaning to just converting it to AD). I'm fairly un-impressed with the class changes, since I find the mechanics much more limited and boring (unlike the Undermountain campaign, which I actually like).
> @glowingember said: > I've been playing some more on preview today and i finally got the arbiter scales mechanic figured out. I had to start from level 1 to get a feel for the changes to dc and i really like what is going on so far. I've been focusing on solo testing mostly, so i can't say much about group play. > > I did test out the differences between arbiter and devout, which made a few things very clear to me. > > In some ways - the dc plays as a poor man's cw that can occasionally toss out a heal. Arbiter fixes that with the scales mechanic and i feel the mechanic should be extended to the devout > > i would like to suggest the following: Scales of Hope. > > this uses radiant and protection, stacking as before ( i believe to 7). this allows us to use the tab mechanic to it's full potential, and makes the dc different than the cw. I suggest all divine characters (paladins and any future additions should have a similar divine mechanic in place) > > when 7 stacks are consumed i would add an extra effect: > radiant fury => autocast exalt to increase the devout dps. > Protector's intercession => autocast geas on target to protect the party. > > this gives us some more choice on how to use our divine stacks and makes us choose whether we want to use a partial stack or wait for a full stack. > > using protection stacks on an atwill will increase damage output, the bonus autocast at 7 stacks. > > perhaps the number i'm suggesting are too high, too much uptime, but it's meant to provide the framework of an idea. > > i'm gonna go check on cw forum to see if there is a resource management including to them.
I love this idea and think it would be a great step forward to increasing devout's popularity. As it seems right now from the feedback, it's All About Arbiter! This would make devout gameplay more fair, fluid, and dynamic like arbiter. Also help cope with the fact that devout gets punished and can spend a lot of time rooted in place...
> @glowingember said: > i also don't understand how we have changed so much with the stat bonuses from dnd. With the current choices, the best pick would be int and dex to increase magical damage and crit damage. Those are very strange choices for a dc. It makes sense for wis to improve divine damage and i have no idea why con improves armour pen in the first place. Charisma could improve divinity regeneration.
or have some things be a combination of a physical and mental trait - crit avoidance is dex + wis
EDIT: as an example Paladins should be forced to make a choice between the physical and mental realms of stats, to support teh dual nature of their roles and powers.
I think this is a great idea and would definitely help Clerics feel less like they're getting the short end if the stick with their naturally high Wisdom as it is now.
> @seraphimrush said: > > The only thing I'm really bitter about so far is that you've taken away my flashlight. Channel Divinity will never again help me avoid tripping over corpses in dark rooms. I will never forgive.
OMG I forgot about the flashlight! I love theoretically helping my teammates navigate bench hopping in CN to avoid the baddies. And hoisting my divine beacon of a flashlight in T9 as I jump shift down the grand staircases
> @fns2005 said: > > @seraphimrush said: > > > > The only thing I'm really bitter about so far is that you've taken away my flashlight. Channel Divinity will never again help me avoid tripping over corpses in dark rooms. I will never forgive. > > OMG I forgot about the flashlight! I love theoretically helping my teammates navigate bench hopping in CN to avoid the baddies. And hoisting my divine beacon of a flashlight in T9 as I jump shift down the grand staircases >
I will miss the divine toggle of noisy flashes, since it's quite effective as a "get in the circle" notification.
I thought we were going to get some rework of the Cleric feats - any word on that?
I would settle for any kind of balance pass at this point. Launch is around the corner and we are sorely lagging behind the other DPS classes in terms of DPS and/or party support
I thought we were going to get some rework of the Cleric feats - any word on that?
Aster has promised us feats changes as well as some other changes before last week, then he shifted them to this week and still nothing happened this week. =( soo unfortunate.
Hey everyone! During our livestream today some of you were asking if I was still alive due to my sluggish responses recently and I just wanted to update you all that I am still very much alive, but that I have been devoting all of the evening time I had dedicated to replying to these threads to getting everything locked down ahead of our internal gold deadline so that our QA department has sufficient time to hammer on things ahead of launch. I have been skimming through posts as much as possible and hope to square away some time soon to answer more questions.
In the meantime, I'd like to apologize for how quiet I've been and let you all know that I absolutely have been reading, will continue to read, and will make the time to respond to your feedback and questions. I won't forget about them.
Cleric was one of the last classes I finished working on during my initial pass, and I've been unable to return to it over the last few weeks, but I am actively working on Cleric right now, and will have changes to talk about soon. I appreciate all of your patience.
Hey everyone! During our livestream today some of you were asking if I was still alive due to my sluggish responses recently and I just wanted to update you all that I am still very much alive, but that I have been devoting all of the evening time I had dedicated to replying to these threads to getting everything locked down ahead of our internal gold deadline so that our QA department has sufficient time to hammer on things ahead of launch. I have been skimming through posts as much as possible and hope to square away some time soon to answer more questions.
In the meantime, I'd like to apologize for how quiet I've been and let you all know that I absolutely have been reading, will continue to read, and will make the time to respond to your feedback and questions. I won't forget about them.
Cleric was one of the last classes I finished working on during my initial pass, and I've been unable to return to it over the last few weeks, but I am actively working on Cleric right now, and will have changes to talk about soon. I appreciate all of your patience.
I mean i used to heal the same in pvp just before you have nurfed my bastion of healing. Lock is a support class just like Arbiter, so by any means should it heal the way they heal now. Better then the Healers imo.
Hope Locks healing will be adjusted before the mod goes live. thx
That lock lock was specced for healing as in soulweaver specc.
Personaly i havnt tested pvp yet but the comparison there is inaccurate
Well, tell me then how come being an Arbiter with dps spec along with a moderate TR we could not kill him BUT he has killed us both. Not only he managed to survive through our burst but to kill us one by one
I mean im alright if lock being a healer (supporter) would not be able to kill me. but unfortunately he is able to kill and heal like a boss. Same goes to tanks.
1
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Emphasis on "should be". Arbiter is OK for solo play, but although it is meant to be equally viable as a DPS as the other DPS classes, there are some issues.
I have not tried Arbiter in PvP, but I would not be surprised to see it have issues because of control (vulnerable to control, and cannot reliably control/stun/root/whatever others).
In regular PvE, the Arbiter has two issues - its AoE is somewhat lacking, but I am actually hoping that will get fixed. The other issue is with long fights - the Arbiter does decent damage in short fights against a single opponent, but in longer fights, divinity management becomes an issue and the Arbiter has to spend too much time/powers on restoring divinity instead of doing damage. The arbiter is perfectly fine as a secondary single-target DPS, though
Comments
This new version of Neverwinter leaves me feeling like I'm watching an episode of the Power Rangers where they never even bother to summon their Zords, much less combine into a Megazord. We're all average adventurers beating bosses into submission with sticks. Initially I was really excited to hear what kinds of changes they had in store for us, but seeing the plan in action I have even less enthusiasm for the game than I did before. There's minimal character progression, minimal character individuality, and I went from feeling uber to feeling average. I didn't sign up to investing years of time and resources to end up with something barely better than average. It's just... sad.
The unfortunate part of these changes is that players who didn't regularly experience the severe balance problem at end-game are going to be left wondering why these changes were made at all. If they took 5 minutes to kill Orcus in CN or struggled to meet the DPS check at the Arcolith in CR, they probably don't see the need for the overhaul. I do think it's necessary to start this way, though, to have the best shot at preserving the health of the game over the next few years and onward.
Finally, I think we also need to keep in mind that 80 is literally the new 70, and we are all going to be new max level characters once again. The devs will need to leave a healthy amount of room in the equipment design for players to continue to improve on their stats with further updates, so I don't expect that we are going to hit the pinnacle of effectiveness in every possible way just by snatching up whatever equipment is the top tier for this very first mod at level 80.
All of that being said, my outlook is becoming more positive for what the gameplay experience might be at M16 launch. Seeing a lot of good discussion, feedback, and updates partly in response to that feedback.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
I think Devout could use an additional mechanic to generate divinity like gaining divinity when healing or dealing damage, whatever works best and is at least semi-reliable. Something rewarding for doing your job or taking a risk (trying to deal damage instead of only healing). Maybe it's just me but I think boss fights are the best part of this game.
For maxed teams on live you would need a dungeon similar in length to T9 but with at least 5 bosses and/or a change to how boss phases work so you basically fight multiple bosses one after another. Elite versions of dungeons is something many people have asked for. Scaling, at least how it works on live, is the worst solution to this in my opinion.
> Searing Light: Still has the same problem as always, it's hard to position mobs properly to get the most out of it. Have you guys considered giving it the Sudden Storm treatment?
This is an interesting suggestion as many have complained about the actual utility of Searing Light and trying to hit enemies in a line. With a Sudden Storm mechanic it could be more of an aoe cone and even have a different animation like a meteor shower of light. Maybe rename it Light Storm
> Too bad we have a high chance of getting killed while casting it... "Hold on mobs! Im casting my astral shield, go away!"
Haha this made me LOLLL!!
>
> - Flame Strike losing its knock-up is unfortunate, because it was just fun.
Shucks Flame Strike is my favorite Cleric power!!! Please consider returning the knock-up. I love it and I'm sure other Clerics do as well
Clerics spend most of the game dancing the Macarena with a holy symbol waving around.
Not very cool visuals.
Every now and then it is very satisfying for a Cleric to yell
"Suprise, motherHAMSTER!"
and have a bad-HAMSTER NUKE VFX that blasts the mob 30 feet in the air. lol
Love it!
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
> -I want to protect my tank, my melee dps but astral shield is tedious to cast and use (i mean, compare it to circle of power of Oathkeeper, now we talk about fluidity, why not doing something similar for us???)
This is a great suggestion as there have been several complaints about using astral shield.
For what i can tell is that if things stay pretty much as they are now the area of the Cleric might be over.
Warlock heals enough and buffs better in heal specc and does more dps on dmg specc.
Pala buffs less but seems to be have the upperhand in heal mitigation and fluid gameplay
Dunno hope im wrong
> I've been playing some more on preview today and i finally got the arbiter scales mechanic figured out. I had to start from level 1 to get a feel for the changes to dc and i really like what is going on so far. I've been focusing on solo testing mostly, so i can't say much about group play.
>
> I did test out the differences between arbiter and devout, which made a few things very clear to me.
>
> In some ways - the dc plays as a poor man's cw that can occasionally toss out a heal. Arbiter fixes that with the scales mechanic and i feel the mechanic should be extended to the devout
>
> i would like to suggest the following: Scales of Hope.
>
> this uses radiant and protection, stacking as before ( i believe to 7). this allows us to use the tab mechanic to it's full potential, and makes the dc different than the cw. I suggest all divine characters (paladins and any future additions should have a similar divine mechanic in place)
>
> when 7 stacks are consumed i would add an extra effect:
> radiant fury => autocast exalt to increase the devout dps.
> Protector's intercession => autocast geas on target to protect the party.
>
> this gives us some more choice on how to use our divine stacks and makes us choose whether we want to use a partial stack or wait for a full stack.
>
> using protection stacks on an atwill will increase damage output, the bonus autocast at 7 stacks.
>
> perhaps the number i'm suggesting are too high, too much uptime, but it's meant to provide the framework of an idea.
>
> i'm gonna go check on cw forum to see if there is a resource management including to them.
I love this idea and think it would be a great step forward to increasing devout's popularity. As it seems right now from the feedback, it's All About Arbiter! This would make devout gameplay more fair, fluid, and dynamic like arbiter. Also help cope with the fact that devout gets punished and can spend a lot of time rooted in place...
>
i also don't understand how we have changed so much with the stat bonuses from dnd. With the current choices, the best pick would be int and dex to increase magical damage and crit damage. Those are very strange choices for a dc. It makes sense for wis to improve divine damage and i have no idea why con improves armour pen in the first place. Charisma could improve divinity regeneration.
str - better physical damage
dex - better crit chance,
con - better health, better physical resource management ( ability cds, anything physically or natural based)
int - better magic damage, combat advantage avoidance
wis - better divine damage, crit avoidance
cha - better resource management (magic, mana, soul sparks, anything supernatural)
or have some things be a combination of a physical and mental trait - crit avoidance is dex + wis
EDIT: as an example Paladins should be forced to make a choice between the physical and mental realms of stats, to support teh dual nature of their roles and powers.
I think this is a great idea and would definitely help Clerics feel less like they're getting the short end if the stick with their naturally high Wisdom as it is now.
>
> The only thing I'm really bitter about so far is that you've taken away my flashlight. Channel Divinity will never again help me avoid tripping over corpses in dark rooms. I will never forgive.
OMG I forgot about the flashlight! I love theoretically helping my teammates navigate bench hopping in CN to avoid the baddies. And hoisting my divine beacon of a flashlight in T9 as I jump shift down the grand staircases
> > @seraphimrush said:
> >
> > The only thing I'm really bitter about so far is that you've taken away my flashlight. Channel Divinity will never again help me avoid tripping over corpses in dark rooms. I will never forgive.
>
> OMG I forgot about the flashlight! I love theoretically helping my teammates navigate bench hopping in CN to avoid the baddies. And hoisting my divine beacon of a flashlight in T9 as I jump shift down the grand staircases
>
I will miss the divine toggle of noisy flashes, since it's quite effective as a "get in the circle" notification.
In the meantime, I'd like to apologize for how quiet I've been and let you all know that I absolutely have been reading, will continue to read, and will make the time to respond to your feedback and questions. I won't forget about them.
Cleric was one of the last classes I finished working on during my initial pass, and I've been unable to return to it over the last few weeks, but I am actively working on Cleric right now, and will have changes to talk about soon. I appreciate all of your patience.
Please look into Warlocks healing in pvp.
I mean i used to heal the same in pvp just before you have nurfed my bastion of healing.
Lock is a support class just like Arbiter, so by any means should it heal the way they heal now.
Better then the Healers imo.
Hope Locks healing will be adjusted before the mod goes live. thx
Arbiter isnt a supporter. It should be a dps.
That lock lock was specced for healing as in soulweaver specc.
Personaly i havnt tested pvp yet but the comparison there is inaccurate
I mean im alright if lock being a healer (supporter) would not be able to kill me. but unfortunately he is able to kill and heal like a boss.
Same goes to tanks.
I have not tried Arbiter in PvP, but I would not be surprised to see it have issues because of control (vulnerable to control, and cannot reliably control/stun/root/whatever others).
In regular PvE, the Arbiter has two issues - its AoE is somewhat lacking, but I am actually hoping that will get fixed. The other issue is with long fights - the Arbiter does decent damage in short fights against a single opponent, but in longer fights, divinity management becomes an issue and the Arbiter has to spend too much time/powers on restoring divinity instead of doing damage. The arbiter is perfectly fine as a secondary single-target DPS, though