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Official M16: Stats and Mechanics

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  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited March 2019

    Well, because of scaling and stat differences and stuffs, dungeons are harder than running random level 80 mobs in zones yeah?

    they are. but it's still indicative imo. solo is one thing group content is another. they have all the tools to be bis to test things out on test but i'm not sure how many people are running content as actual average players would play. r10's and partially leveled sets. with the 500/1 it was easy to get the stats you needed with gear that dropped and what not. imo it was totally doable to do anything as a random. (and that is what I think they were going for) this rebalance has made it more difficult to get the stats to do basic stuff unless you're a try hard.

    I think the end game players will be ok. they always are. but the other 95% are going to be struggling with this. imo they should have waited to do the stats 1000/1 and change the balance of the mobs til mod 17 and just given everyone a warning it was coming and focus on fixing the bugs for the next few weeks.

    just to be clear, my entire beef is with scaling combined with the stat changes. scaling is the issue here. nearly all of the content will be level 70 that we're running. and they're making it all very very hard now.
    Post edited by thefiresidecat on
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User

    Suggestion to further streamline stats: Remove Critical Resist, Accuracy, Awareness, Armor Penetration, Deflect, Combat Advantage and Critical Strike.

    That way we (players and devs alike) only have to worry about HP, power and defense.

    Works for me. I know people are being flippant, but, what value is there in splitting damage output into three or four different categories?
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    The 1000:1 makes perfect sense given the system they are going with. <3 Kudos <3 to whichever dev "mathed" it out and also realized that enemies need higher positive stats than negative stats. Seems obvious afterward... but it was a genius game-saving move.
  • rickcase276rickcase276 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,387 Arc User
    I just wonder if the average player, which currently would have maybe a 12k ilevel toon would agree that the changes are gme-saving? They would probably think all of it is too difficult and either quit or just log in to get daily key. And I do mean those that only run solo content solo, not those that choose to team up for solo content.
  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Member Posts: 783 Arc User

    I just wonder if the average player, which currently would have maybe a 12k ilevel toon would agree that the changes are gme-saving? They would probably think all of it is too difficult and either quit or just log in to get daily key. And I do mean those that only run solo content solo, not those that choose to team up for solo content.

    Yep. +1 here
    ~Shia~

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
    Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator

    Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
    Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
    S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
    T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
    Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User


    they are. but it's still indicative imo. solo is one thing group content is another. they have all the tools to be bis to test things out on test but i'm not sure how many people are running content as actual average players would play. r10's and partially leveled sets. with the 500/1 it was easy to get the stats you needed with gear that dropped and what not. imo it was totally doable to do anything as a random. (and that is what I think they were going for) this rebalance has made it more difficult to get the stats to do basic stuff unless you're a try hard.

    I think the end game players will be ok. they always are. but the other 95% are going to be struggling with this. imo they should have waited to do the stats 1000/1 and change the balance of the mobs til mod 17 and just given everyone a warning it was coming and focus on fixing the bugs for the next few weeks.

    just to be clear, my entire beef is with scaling combined with the stat changes. scaling is the issue here. nearly all of the content will be level 70 that we're running. and they're making it all very very hard now.

    I have been testing things “as is” from live, taking some advantage of preview, and minimal toons (incomplete campaigns, the gifted gear and few pets/mounts) just to get a range of experience with the changes.

    And yes the scaling down from 80 is terrible.

    It’s not that you are scaled down, it’s that your relative effectiveness is decreased when you are scaled down as well. So if you are doing ok, but not great against level 80 mobs, level 70 content will be hard or worse instead of staying “ok but not great”.

    Hopefully now that level 80 seems to be largely working they can go back and tweak the scaling so it works properly as well.
    level 80 isn' tlargely working though. there are still a few classes that need a LOT of love. and there are still a lot of outstanding bugs. it really seems like they've bitten off more than they can chew here.
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    Scaling us down for old content is stupid anyway, even if it was working. And I am in agreement with you that it is not.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User

    I just wonder if the average player, which currently would have maybe a 12k ilevel toon would agree that the changes are gme-saving? They would probably think all of it is too difficult and either quit or just log in to get daily key. And I do mean those that only run solo content solo, not those that choose to team up for solo content.

    Yep. +1 here
    I’m not average in skill or experience, but I’ve been doing the campaign with 17k, 16k, 12k, and 8k toons (not all in 1 class, but spread over every class) and I see no reason for any of those players to pack it in.

    At least not based on the broad mechanics changes, class specific ones is a different and more personal choice.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User

    Scaling us down for old content is stupid anyway, even if it was working. And I am in agreement with you that it is not.

    Well, the options are

    1.) Level 80s are able to utterly steamroll level 70 content
    1a.) Therefore, if rewards are valuable to level 80 characters at all, then level 80ers will run around dominating things and not do level 80 content or
    1b.) If rewards AREN'T valuable to level 80 characters, then the level 70 content gets abandoned by most players.
    2.) Level 80s are NOT able to steamroll level 70 content
    2a.) Therefore, level 70 content can still be rewarding without being disproportionately effective BUT you run into the issue where there's no point in getting stronger
    2b.) Level 70 content is not rewarding despite the fact that it's hard, so it's SUPER abandoned.

    Personally, I prefer option 1b: level earlier content be largely an artifact. But it looks like we're going for 2a or 2b, which I think is a major mistake.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited April 2019


    they are. but it's still indicative imo. solo is one thing group content is another. they have all the tools to be bis to test things out on test but i'm not sure how many people are running content as actual average players would play. r10's and partially leveled sets. with the 500/1 it was easy to get the stats you needed with gear that dropped and what not. imo it was totally doable to do anything as a random. (and that is what I think they were going for) this rebalance has made it more difficult to get the stats to do basic stuff unless you're a try hard.

    I think the end game players will be ok. they always are. but the other 95% are going to be struggling with this. imo they should have waited to do the stats 1000/1 and change the balance of the mobs til mod 17 and just given everyone a warning it was coming and focus on fixing the bugs for the next few weeks.

    just to be clear, my entire beef is with scaling combined with the stat changes. scaling is the issue here. nearly all of the content will be level 70 that we're running. and they're making it all very very hard now.

    I have been testing things “as is” from live, taking some advantage of preview, and minimal toons (incomplete campaigns, the gifted gear and few pets/mounts) just to get a range of experience with the changes.

    And yes the scaling down from 80 is terrible.

    It’s not that you are scaled down, it’s that your relative effectiveness is decreased when you are scaled down as well. So if you are doing ok, but not great against level 80 mobs, level 70 content will be hard or worse instead of staying “ok but not great”.

    Hopefully now that level 80 seems to be largely working they can go back and tweak the scaling so it works properly as well.
    ^this^

    Everything can get balanced out and players can adapt, but this will demoralize transferring players more than anything. Once 'competitive' balance is established throughout all areas... they need to implement a scaling slowdown to recent levels, so that when you return to a slightly lower level area... you feel stronger than when you were there before, not weaker.


    Scaledown Slowdown example to make it crystal clear:


    Actual Character Level: 80
    (Content level / Actual Character level ) cubed = The percentage of the scale-down amount that the Character escapes.


    This example (below) uses levels for illustration only. I suggest using IL instead of level. For a full description see:
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1247050/truescale-system

    Content . .Level 80 Stats scaled down to
    Level . . . . Level #
    80 . . . 80.00
    79 . . . 79.96
    78 . . . 79.85
    77 . . . 79.67
    76 . . . 79.43
    75 . . . 79.12
    74 . . . 78.75
    73 . . . 78.32
    72 . . . 77.83
    71 . . . 77.29
    70 . . . 76.70
    69 . . . 76.06
    68 . . . 75.37
    67 . . . 74.64
    66 . . . 73.86
    65 . . . 73.05
    64 . . . 72.19
    63 . . . 71.30
    62 . . . 70.38
    61 . . . 69.42
    60 . . . 68.44
    59 . . . 67.42
    58 . . . 66.38
    57 . . . 65.32
    56 . . . 64.23
    55 . . . 63.12
    54 . . . 62.00
    53 . . . 60.85
    52 . . . 59.69
    51 . . . 58.51
    50 . . . 57.32
    49 . . . 56.12
    48 . . . 54.91
    47 . . . 53.69
    46 . . . 52.46
    45 . . . 51.23
    44 . . . 49.99
    43 . . . 48.75
    42 . . . 47.50
    41 . . . 46.25
    40 . . . 45.00
    39 . . . 43.75
    38 . . . 42.50
    37 . . . 41.25
    36 . . . 40.01
    35 . . . 38.77
    34 . . . 37.53
    33 . . . 36.30
    32 . . . 35.07
    31 . . . 33.85
    30 . . . 32.64
    29 . . . 31.43
    28 . . . 30.23
    27 . . . 29.04
    26 . . . 27.85
    25 . . . 26.68
    24 . . . 25.51
    23 . . . 24.35
    22 . . . 23.21
    21 . . . 22.07
    20 . . . 20.94
    19 . . . 19.82
    18 . . . 18.71
    17 . . . 17.60
    16 . . . 16.51
    15 . . . 15.43
    14 . . . 14.35
    13 . . . 13.29
    12 . . . 12.23
    11 . . . 11.18
    10 . . . 10.14
    9 . . . 9.10
    8 . . . 8.07
    7 . . . 7.05
    6 . . . 6.03
    5 . . . 5.02
    4 . . . 4.01
    3 . . . 3.00
    2 . . . 2.00
    1 . . . 1.00
    Post edited by zimxero#8085 on
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User

    I have been testing things “as is” from live, taking some advantage of preview, and minimal toons (incomplete campaigns, the gifted gear and few pets/mounts) just to get a range of experience with the changes.

    And yes the scaling down from 80 is terrible.

    It’s not that you are scaled down, it’s that your relative effectiveness is decreased when you are scaled down as well. So if you are doing ok, but not great against level 80 mobs, level 70 content will be hard or worse instead of staying “ok but not great”.

    Hopefully now that level 80 seems to be largely working they can go back and tweak the scaling so it works properly as well.

    ^this^

    Everything can get balanced out and players can adapt, but this will demoralize transferring players more than anything. Once 'competitive' balance is established throughout all areas... they need to implement a scaling slowdown to recent levels, so that when you return to a slightly lower level area... you feel stronger than when you were there before, not weaker.
    Even better explained than what I said.

    If I’m ok at Level X, I should be good at Level X-5 or lower and not scaled at all between level X and level X-4.

    Eg at Level 80 if I’m average, I shouldn’t experience scaling until I enter a zone for level 75 or lower content, and in that content I should feel good or strong.

    Right now if I’m ok to good at level 80 and I go to any zone where I’m scaled I end up average or poor in feeling, and that just shouldn’t happen.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    A small thing, but can you PLEASE round ther ratings to a whole number?

    This is ugly...seriously ugly.


    Hoping for improvements...
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User

    Scaling us down for old content is stupid anyway, even if it was working. And I am in agreement with you that it is not.

    Well, the options are

    1.) Level 80s are able to utterly steamroll level 70 content
    1a.) Therefore, if rewards are valuable to level 80 characters at all, then level 80ers will run around dominating things and not do level 80 content or
    1b.) If rewards AREN'T valuable to level 80 characters, then the level 70 content gets abandoned by most players.
    2.) Level 80s are NOT able to steamroll level 70 content
    2a.) Therefore, level 70 content can still be rewarding without being disproportionately effective BUT you run into the issue where there's no point in getting stronger
    2b.) Level 70 content is not rewarding despite the fact that it's hard, so it's SUPER abandoned.

    Personally, I prefer option 1b: level earlier content be largely an artifact. But it looks like we're going for 2a or 2b, which I think is a major mistake.
    I don't think these are accurate or descriptive of the options.
  • joe7777joe7777 Member Posts: 509 Arc User
    edited March 2019

    I just wonder if the average player, which currently would have maybe a 12k ilevel toon would agree that the changes are gme-saving? They would probably think all of it is too difficult and either quit or just log in to get daily key. And I do mean those that only run solo content solo, not those that choose to team up for solo content.

    I'm no veteran to the game but also not average at best in terms of gamer skill and my main is 9.2k IL and I do struggle to solo more recent module content, but before all of that and even on alts that aren't Lv70 yet I find the game is too easy early in. I for one welcome increased difficulty.
  • arcanjo86arcanjo86 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,086 Arc User


    they are. but it's still indicative imo. solo is one thing group content is another. they have all the tools to be bis to test things out on test but i'm not sure how many people are running content as actual average players would play. r10's and partially leveled sets. with the 500/1 it was easy to get the stats you needed with gear that dropped and what not. imo it was totally doable to do anything as a random. (and that is what I think they were going for) this rebalance has made it more difficult to get the stats to do basic stuff unless you're a try hard.

    I think the end game players will be ok. they always are. but the other 95% are going to be struggling with this. imo they should have waited to do the stats 1000/1 and change the balance of the mobs til mod 17 and just given everyone a warning it was coming and focus on fixing the bugs for the next few weeks.

    just to be clear, my entire beef is with scaling combined with the stat changes. scaling is the issue here. nearly all of the content will be level 70 that we're running. and they're making it all very very hard now.

    I have been testing things “as is” from live, taking some advantage of preview, and minimal toons (incomplete campaigns, the gifted gear and few pets/mounts) just to get a range of experience with the changes.

    And yes the scaling down from 80 is terrible.

    It’s not that you are scaled down, it’s that your relative effectiveness is decreased when you are scaled down as well. So if you are doing ok, but not great against level 80 mobs, level 70 content will be hard or worse instead of staying “ok but not great”.

    Hopefully now that level 80 seems to be largely working they can go back and tweak the scaling so it works properly as well.
    they are scalling us down to lower values of armor penetration to counter enemies higher value ofdefense and lower accuracy to counter enemies higher value of deflect while enemies have accuracy, armpen, combat advantage, critstrike stats that surpass our scaled down values of defense, deflect, awareness and critresist, the scaled down should give us the the right values for defense/awareness/deflect/critresist/accuracy/armpen/combat advantage/critstrike @noworries#8859 with the lowering of cd and damage of dailies and encounters, you need to give on scale down chars the right caps for that content and lower the power stats to reduce the damage player do on those levels even equal to enemies power values or slight increase from enemies power values, the scale down system is broken once again and once again will be released that way to live, cryptic studios history once again repeating itself.
  • artifleurartifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    I was lucky enough to get one of the new shirts with the cooldown reduction perk from a failed (remorhaz boss disappeared and never came back) expedition.

    Please add them to the preview-only shop so everyone can test it.

    For anyone interested, it does what it says : 10% chance of -1s cooldown on a crit with 5s of cooldown.

    It is pretty weak against large groups and pretty much worthless against a boss. It also depends wildly on how many hits per second you can deal.

    I suggest removing the 10% chance and increasing the cooldown so it can at least be somewhat useful for all builds and fights rather than only effective for classes with fast AoE attacks facing large groups.
  • artifleurartifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    Like several people already said before, the changes done to magnitudes don't feel good at all. I still feel like I'm wasting my time when using at-wills and should just run around while waiting for encounters even though encounters themselves are a lot less effective than before.

    With the new 1000/1% ratio, I'm afraid the most important part of one's gear will be the armor pieces with +X% buffs again.

    That includes all the old stuff (kiuno, boots of the willed, hag's rags, shadowstalker which is bugged on preview, primal paints etc...) and the new stuff (ebonized rings, undermountain hat, spy guild rings etc...), some of which aren't available on the preview-only shop.

    Even the demon lord set may prove to be better than the new ones except maybe for a hunter ranger spamming disruptive shot.
  • boldac#0951 boldac Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    Can someone explain what the "+% Hit Points strength" does?

    I see it on some enchants, and companion abilities, but what does it do? I can't see that it is doing anything.

    Thanks!
  • ruslan1404#8974 ruslan1404 Member Posts: 53 Arc User


    This is the reason not to take in the party anyone except the barbarian :)

  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    artifleur said:


    mobs have
    60000 ratings for Defense, Deflect, Combat Advantage, and Critical Strike
    other stats are 10k.

    Corrected. Thanks!
    So in other words, I now have to cap 60k Arp (dps), 60k Accuracy(dps), 60k Awareness (tank) and 60k Crit Resist(tank) same as
    10k critical strike, 10k Defense , 10k Deflect , 10 combat Advantage are sufficient to counter mobs stats?
    At 60k crit I am at the cap (50%) same as CA can be stacked endlessly, not sure what is from mayor interest power>CA or CA>power?
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • davidmokidavidmoki Member Posts: 52 Arc User
    Can't we all agree that the new system is worse than the old one (which already were bad), revert the changes and maybe delay the stats changes to mod 17?
    We (people that test stuff for our love to the game) seem to have a higher tolerance for broken mechanics, but how do you think the ordinary player will feel once all the sudden their character is weaker and they have no idea why? the game does a terrible job telling what stats values we need for content and adding normalization in the equation only make it worse.
    This doesn't sound like the kind of problem that can be fixed in less than a month, especially as other classes issues also needs work. You guys are trying to rush what doesn't need to be rushed.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    davidmoki said:

    Can't we all agree that the new system is worse than the old one (which already were bad), revert the changes and maybe delay the stats changes to mod 17?
    We (people that test stuff for our love to the game) seem to have a higher tolerance for broken mechanics, but how do you think the ordinary player will feel once all the sudden their character is weaker and they have no idea why? the game does a terrible job telling what stats values we need for content and adding normalization in the equation only make it worse.
    This doesn't sound like the kind of problem that can be fixed in less than a month, especially as other classes issues also needs work. You guys are trying to rush what doesn't need to be rushed.

    As it looks, you have to study NWO and get a master in "mechanics and stats " before you can even begin mob-hunt.
    Pretty sure console player will love it.
    Sad about this mess is as you point at, there is obviously no time to take care of core problems some classes do have actually, still missing any kind of solid feedback in threats for Warlock , Hunter, TR etc.
  • agodbeaagodbea Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    I wish scaling was simply. if you at level 80 have 23% chance to crit a level 80 mob so will you when scaled with level 15 have 23% chance to crit a level 15 mob.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User

    artifleur said:


    mobs have
    60000 ratings for Defense, Deflect, Combat Advantage, and Critical Strike
    other stats are 10k.

    Corrected. Thanks!
    So in other words, I now have to cap 60k Arp (dps), 60k Accuracy(dps), 60k Awareness (tank) and 60k Crit Resist(tank) same as
    10k critical strike, 10k Defense , 10k Deflect , 10 combat Advantage are sufficient to counter mobs stats?
    At 60k crit I am at the cap (50%) same as CA can be stacked endlessly, not sure what is from mayor interest power>CA or CA>power?

    It is a bit more complicated. See here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/12AXzQrEQOeGZfAk7YolOH7YWE7qTmWe49sCwH-RATDg/edit?usp=sharing
    Hoping for improvements...
  • c3rb3r3c3rb3r3 Member Posts: 277 Arc User



    This is the reason not to take in the party anyone except the barbarian :)

    what's your point ?
    a dps and a tank with nearly bis equipment being able to 15 minutes a third of FBI ?
    no class comparison ?
    is it just class bashing ?
  • karvarekarvare Member Posts: 230 Arc User
    With this change, will tanks be given more bonus agro? I am finding I lose about 20 to 30 percent of my damage done but can not find a way I could add enough ArP to allow me to keep agro. As a tank, the vast bulk of my ratings stats go into survival, DPS will max damaging ratings.

    This could end bad.
  • silvergryphsilvergryph Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 737 Arc User
    BUG: The Half-Elf racial ability Dilettante still does not function. No ability score gets the +1 bonus, checked on all classes.
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