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Official M16: Stats and Mechanics

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  • vorphiedvorphied Posts: 1,698Member Arc User
    hustin1 said:

    hustin1 said:

    Wow this is good news indeed, especially for us players who usually solo. I mean really good news.

    No it isn't. We just lost up to 30% damage resistance with the cap change. We just got royally screwed.

    I am so done with this mod. I'll see you in mod 17.
    Enemies HP fell by 30%. That means that your opening encounter powers now take ovver 64% more of their HP. So you may not be able to survive as long, but you no longer *have to.*
    There is NO WAY that the change to enemies makes up for having your damage resistance go from 80% to 25% -- not with the damage they do. To me this is a dealbreaker. I now have zero intention of doing this mod. I'll invoke my way to 80 instead.
    What character are you concerned about that would actually be affected by this, anyway?

    Tanks have gigantic HP pools and mitigation tools to compensate, and they are the only role that could reasonably think about hitting any kind of damage resistance cap without siphoning off other, more necessary stats.

    DPS not only have (or should have, when the design is on point) the highest damage output, they were already not getting much benefit at all from defensive stats if built for their intended purpose (i.e. no reasonable DPS gets anywhere close to 80% damage resistance without the live version of Shepherd's Devotion being abused).

    Healing supports, when caught in the rare situation where they need to solo something, simply need enough juice to kill a pack of mobs before their healing resources and cooldowns become an issue. Also not realistically able to hit 80% damage resistance.

    TL;DR: I think you're drastically overestimating the significance of this change in regards to non-tank characters, and tanks should have absolutely nothing to worry about. As far as solo content goes, no one has anything to worry about except when other things are not WAI (e.g. broken mob scaling, underperforming class design, etc.).
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  • vorphiedvorphied Posts: 1,698Member Arc User
    lowjohn said:

    Yes lowjon I did miss that. If you can quote where he said -30% to all monsters I'd love to read it. Unless you're referring to "Critter Health has been reduced by 30% across the board" which does NOT mean all monsters but a very specific set of monsters.

    "Critters" are not a category of monsters. He means "all monsters". @noworries#8859 back me up here?

    I'm with your interpretation, here. Last I checked, there was no category of monsters called "critter," or even "creature."
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  • nisckisnisckis Posts: 523Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 28

    nisckis said:

    We do need level 80 stats and Lair of the Mad Mage stats. I don't think many people care about level 70 or lower stats.

    I think their system makes it clear:

    Level 80 enemies
    12,000 awareness, accuracy, armor penetration, critical resist
    62,000 critical hit, defense, deflect, and combat advantage

    Lair of the Mad Mage enemies
    16,000 awareness, accuracy, armor penetration, critical resist
    66,000 critical hit, defense, deflect, and combat advantage



    Where did you see those numbers? I'm searching through the forums and I have not found them.

    Even https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1246305/official-m16-enemy-ratings reflects the old numbers.
  • karvarekarvare Posts: 125Member Arc User
    Companion influence for charisma does not work. It is listed on character sheet, but ratings do not change with adding points to charisma. The boon for companion influence both shows on character sheet and increases ratings, around 120 points per rank/2% for me. Also half elf racial +1 stat based on class does not work either. Same stats as anyone else. Not sure now if it even works on live ATM.
  • hustin1hustin1 Posts: 2,743Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    vorphied said:

    hustin1 said:

    hustin1 said:

    Wow this is good news indeed, especially for us players who usually solo. I mean really good news.

    No it isn't. We just lost up to 30% damage resistance with the cap change. We just got royally screwed.

    I am so done with this mod. I'll see you in mod 17.
    Enemies HP fell by 30%. That means that your opening encounter powers now take ovver 64% more of their HP. So you may not be able to survive as long, but you no longer *have to.*
    There is NO WAY that the change to enemies makes up for having your damage resistance go from 80% to 25% -- not with the damage they do. To me this is a dealbreaker. I now have zero intention of doing this mod. I'll invoke my way to 80 instead.
    What character are you concerned about that would actually be affected by this, anyway?

    Tanks have gigantic HP pools and mitigation tools to compensate, and they are the only role that could reasonably think about hitting any kind of damage resistance cap without siphoning off other, more necessary stats.

    DPS not only have (or should have, when the design is on point) the highest damage output, they were already not getting much benefit at all from defensive stats if built for their intended purpose (i.e. no reasonable DPS gets anywhere close to 80% damage resistance without the live version of Shepherd's Devotion being abused).

    Healing supports, when caught in the rare situation where they need to solo something, simply need enough juice to kill a pack of mobs before their healing resources and cooldowns become an issue. Also not realistically able to hit 80% damage resistance.

    TL;DR: I think you're drastically overestimating the significance of this change in regards to non-tank characters, and tanks should have absolutely nothing to worry about. As far as solo content goes, no one has anything to worry about except when other things are not WAI (e.g. broken mob scaling, underperforming class design, etc.).
    I spend 99% of my time soloing, and so I have high defense on ALL of my alts. My HR (main) has the highest on live and already hits around 90-95% DR when the bondings kick in. If I swap all her companion gear and companions around it can go past 130%, which is of course overkill. That said, all of my alts have robust defense stats -- they need them when soloing. I'm actually not talking mainly about tanks, as out of 16 alts I have only one GF and one OP and I don't play them often at all.
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  • animewatcha#6533 animewatcha Posts: 47Member Arc User
    Way I am seeing it. They are pretty much asking the playerbase to grill them on every single bug, every single typo, every single thing not working, question every nerf. At every con, every twitter account, facebook page. They are gonna needs need HUNDREDS of messages about every single little thing wrong before they get it through it through their thick heads to fix something right.

    For an example...
    Legend of Vox Machina Kickstarter. Critical Role. Cast joked about animated series. Fans wanted an animated series with the same vain of broadcasts, etc. Even fan-imations here and there on youtube. They recently did a kickstarter for animated series. Partly joke partly not take serious though they did want to do atleast couple of episodes. Result? Fans threw their money at the kickstarter and HAMSTER stretch goals harder than Cryptic is doing to neverwinter right now. Give the fans what they want in a product and you won't have to worry about making money.

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/criticalrole/critical-role-the-legend-of-vox-machina-animated-s/updates
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Posts: 1,329Member Arc User
    edited March 28

    ramesh84 said:

    I am not a math geek but for what I understood we are moving to this rating cap at level 70:
    ArP 57000
    Crit 57000
    CA 107000
    Acc 57000
    Total Stats: 278000

    Actually:

    ArP 57000
    Crit 52000 (+5% default crit hit)
    CA 97000 (+10% default CA)
    Acc 57000
    Total Stats: 263000


    Nevertheless, you make a good point. I have to agree. Even though most players balance it out some, I think a maxed out player should be able to max out one side of the offensive or defensive tree, and start edging into the other side.


    Any chance we will get back our normal runestone and enchantment values for dual slots?
    Just remember that when they said "+5%/10% chance by default" they meant something completely different.
    That 5% and 10% does not apply unaltered, after the stat conversion, and opposing comparison to calculate the base chance (with a minimum of zero) as it states (and err... that's what "By DEFAULT" means Devs... unaltered, unopposed, unchanged, once you change it into something else you CAN'T call it "by DEFAULT").

    Where they say a +X% Chance by default they mean it actually "gets converted back into the base stat as part of the pre calculation figure.

    So the Crit Score will need to be 57'000 but 5'000 will exist already because of the "+5% Chance by default". So you will need to stack 52'000 on top but...
    DON'T ASSUME THAT 52K IS ALL YOU WILL NEED, BECAUSE THERE'S ANOTHER 5% COMING FROM A BONUS... THERE ISN'T
    THAT 5K DOES NOT ADD IN LATER.
    It needs to be part of the initial equation.

    (Apologies for shouting, but I want to be sure everyone is aware of this...)

    It gets confusing when someone says they are using two quite contradictory things to mean the same thing, and personally if they are giving a flat stat increase, I can't see why on God's green Earth they would want to describe it as a +5% Chance by default, particularly when they also added that the base chance cannot reach below Zero.

    Saying that a "by default" +% chance exists when the base chance cannot go below zero doesn't suggest, it MEANS that the minimum chance of Crit will be 5% in all cases, (or 10% in the case of CA) regardless of your base score and the opposing Score.
    Hand waving such inconsistencies with the notion that they are being used synonymously is not enough.
    They mean different things.
    It needs to be made clear.
    Post edited by mordekai#1901 on
  • eoleeeolee Posts: 256Member Arc User
    agodbea said:

    "-30% HP to all monsters" equals +43% damage even so is a huge change.

    Hope tooltips can show % chance we have vs a monster of equal level as that will make them easier to understand.

    7% critical chance (vs targets of your level using your current values)
    N% chance to deflect ...

    I think your maths are off. Just because you eat a new cake compared to the 100% size of the old cake doesnt mean you're gonna make +43% bite size. Your cake is smaller of course but your mouth isnt bigger, is it? 100%/(100%-30%) is not the dps increase...Nor is it to calculate the size of your bite, despite the cake being smaller... Your new bite isnt gonna be 1.43 times bigger than the old one.
    It just means the best thing you can do with the cake is eat it 30% faster, at the very best. But the increase amount to your bite is 0%. They didnt change the size of your spoon, nor the size of your mouth, just the size of what you are eating xD. So i do not understand where you see a DPS increase when at wills magnitude hasnt changed, and encounters/dailies got reduced.

    Maybe im off, dunno. But makes sense to me.




  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,772Member Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    Problem with this, is that it will change from map to map, and if there isn't the raw stat number, it would be harder to figure out what is needed for LoMM since that map will have different stats from level 80 open world monsters. By having the stats listed for each map and each dungeon, we can just do a small amount of math. If both are listed you would then have a percentage saying you have 50% crit rate (47.5k critical strike) but you are fighting monsters with 32k crit resist, you will have to do math anyways to convert into what your real crit rate would be on that map.

    Dividing by 1000 and putting the real values removes a step from the calculation, that's all it does.

    Know the map value, subtract it from the value shown on your sheet - be it affected by scaling or not, and now you have your effective value. Instead of it all being hidden by inflated numbers.
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  • violencebf22violencebf22 Posts: 19Member Arc User
    With such weakening players, would not the passage of the dungeons be too long? I don’t want to take 2 hours as now in the party 14-15k Castle R. And in a random party, passing can be almost unreal? Then you need to improve the system of punishments. I don't want to wait until the tank gets a good amount of stats to normally do its part. Because of class changes healers(W.and C.) will not take healing power and will collect cap for damage. I am for the game to become more difficult and give сhallenge but not for mmorpg.
  • adinosiiadinosii Posts: 3,738Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 28
    I was trying to calculate how this would work out for my "nearly-BiS" 21K IL Cleric. After shifting some stats around, then, no I will not be able to cap the same number of stats as before, and I had to rearrange things quite a bit in my spreadsheet.

    (For example, previously it was worthwhile for me to remove some of my 2 or 3-stat enchants and replace them with Radiants, as I was above too many caps, and just wanted to increase Power. That's no longer the case).

    I will be doing less damage than before, but the 30% reduction basically balances that out - fights should take about the same time as they currently do on Preview (which is about twice as long as they take me on Live), so, quite frankly, this is no big deal.

    I just have to go back to the drawing board to redesign my stat allocation, that's all.

    I am a bit concerned about one potential imbalance, however, and that's the same issue as was raised here:
    gripnir78 said:

    If 1000 ratings = 1% then a lot of things will actually loose their value:

    - race choice - as example - dwarf gets 2000 defence = 2% while dragon born gets 1500 crit strike AND 3% damage so it equvalent of another 3000 ratings put into power.

    Previously races were pretty much balanced - with this update - not any more.

    And before any 1 say its insignificant - no its not, because....

    - enchantments became less worthy - currently on test - fully upgraded (rank 15) 3-stat enchantment on a proper zone was giving ~1400 ratings so about 3% stats - after a change its gona be just 1,5% - and from that point of view race differences are becoming important as those differences are equal to lets say 2pcs of rank 15 enchants - and that makes it big AD difference

    Post edited by adinosii on
    Make NWO great again, please....
  • arcanjo86arcanjo86 Posts: 954Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 28
    @noworries#8859 you really HAMSTER up everything again, develop team already removed power stat rating from companion gear, power from char rings, now nerfing daily powers and ecounter power magnitude damage, with this you definitly are destroying all overall damage and will make companion do more damage than the player, and no considration from all classes different at-wills animations(on case of cw you need to put bigger animation on daily power, medium animation on encounter powers and fast animations on at-will), and with increased cooldown everyone will start prioritizing CHA ability score over STR/INT ability scores if you go that path, basicly get a +4 char belt and a +2 char neck from stronghold even if it has lower stats pieces we wont like to die of boredom playing this game while waiting for high cd encounter power, we wont have a good synergy on a good rotation of encounters, at-wills and daily power with this changes, you are killing the combat style we had all these year and you are making a spam keyboard when cd are over with no synergy at all, no rotations work at all.

    HAMSTER filter applied manually by moderator.
    Post edited by kreatyve on
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Posts: 1,329Member Arc User
    adinosii said:

    I was trying to calculate how this would work out for my "nearly-BiS" 21K IL Cleric. After shifting some stats around, than, no I will not be able to cap the same number of stats as before, and I had to rearrange things a bit in my spreadsheet.

    (For example, previously it was worthwhile for me to remove some of my 2 or 3-stat enchants and replace them with Radiants, as I was above too many caps, and just wanted to increase Power. That's no longer the case).

    I will be doing less damage than before, but the 30% reduction basically balances that out - fights should take about the same time as they currently do on Preview (which is about twice as long as they take me on Live), so, quite frankly, this is no beg deal.

    I just have to go back to the drawing board to redesign my stat allocation, that's all.

    I am a bit concerned about one potential imbalance, however, and that's the same issue as was raised here:

    gripnir78 said:

    If 1000 ratings = 1% then a lot of things will actually loose their value:

    - race choice - as example - dwarf gets 2000 defence = 2% while dragon born gets 1500 crit strike AND 3% damage so it equvalent of another 3000 ratings put into power.

    Previously races were pretty much balanced - with this update - not any more.

    And before any 1 say its insignificant - no its not, because....

    - enchantments became less worthy - currently on test - fully upgraded (rank 15) 3-stat enchantment on a proper zone was giving ~1400 ratings so about 3% stats - after a change its gona be just 1,5% - and from that point of view race differences are becoming important as those differences are equal to lets say 2pcs of rank 15 enchants - and that makes it big AD difference

    Yep.
    Anything that currently adds +5% to, say, Crit is worth 2000 points.
    On Preview at the moment, it's worth 2500 points.
    Tomorrow it will be worth 5000 points...

    This is the positive way of looking at it, rather than talking about how HAMSTER +XX Flat stat value is compared to +XX%.
    I suppose we could look at it as "Hey! Everything that gives a bonus to % will be worth two and half times more in Mod 16 than it does right now..."

    The problem will be, that people won't feel their +%'s are better, they will feel like the big stuff they spent time, money and effort improving and gaining (Legendary Mounts being the obvious big Loser here...) are getting a 50% nerf. Which, when compared to the Gargoyle dude I picked up on Live for my SW this week with his +3% Combat Advantage, they ARE.

    TBH I have no idea what the Gargoyle gives in Preview, I got him on console... But the concept is the same on any +XX%. Either Flat stat bonuses stay the same and +% are doubling in effect, or +% are staying the same and Flat Stat bonuses are halving... Either way, one method is now vastly better, suggesting they aren't "synonymous" after all...
  • soulaeterr2soulaeterr2 Posts: 12Member Arc User
    do NOT realease this in a month it needs way more tuning and the amount of bugs is stil waaaay to high
  • arcanjo86arcanjo86 Posts: 954Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    @noworries#8859 why not remove recharge speed stat and ap gain stat and make daily power have high cd values, encounter power medium cd values and at will no cd, daily power a 30s cd, encounter power between 10s(for low/mid magnitude damage encounter powers) to 15s(for highest magnitude encounter powers), make necklace have a equip bonus of every 10sec in batlle reduce cd by 1s
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Posts: 1,329Member Arc User
    Just a question.

    With the reduction in Monster Hit Points to improve the effectiveness of At Wills, will Environmental Damage now do effectively 40 odd % more damage to monsters?
    So Controlling a bunch of monsters into Fire, or Lava, or off a big drop, or will that type of damage be adjusted accordingly?
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User
    Does anyone remember how the damage resistance formula actually works? Is it actually what it says on the tin, with 25% damage resistance reducing incoming damage by a quarter, or is it like CO and STO's formulae where damage is divided by 1+(DR/100), wherein 25% damage resistance actually reduces damage by a fifth, and 100% resistance reduces it by half?
  • vorphiedvorphied Posts: 1,698Member Arc User
    hustin1 said:

    vorphied said:

    hustin1 said:

    hustin1 said:

    Wow this is good news indeed, especially for us players who usually solo. I mean really good news.

    No it isn't. We just lost up to 30% damage resistance with the cap change. We just got royally screwed.

    I am so done with this mod. I'll see you in mod 17.
    Enemies HP fell by 30%. That means that your opening encounter powers now take ovver 64% more of their HP. So you may not be able to survive as long, but you no longer *have to.*
    There is NO WAY that the change to enemies makes up for having your damage resistance go from 80% to 25% -- not with the damage they do. To me this is a dealbreaker. I now have zero intention of doing this mod. I'll invoke my way to 80 instead.
    What character are you concerned about that would actually be affected by this, anyway?

    Tanks have gigantic HP pools and mitigation tools to compensate, and they are the only role that could reasonably think about hitting any kind of damage resistance cap without siphoning off other, more necessary stats.

    DPS not only have (or should have, when the design is on point) the highest damage output, they were already not getting much benefit at all from defensive stats if built for their intended purpose (i.e. no reasonable DPS gets anywhere close to 80% damage resistance without the live version of Shepherd's Devotion being abused).

    Healing supports, when caught in the rare situation where they need to solo something, simply need enough juice to kill a pack of mobs before their healing resources and cooldowns become an issue. Also not realistically able to hit 80% damage resistance.

    TL;DR: I think you're drastically overestimating the significance of this change in regards to non-tank characters, and tanks should have absolutely nothing to worry about. As far as solo content goes, no one has anything to worry about except when other things are not WAI (e.g. broken mob scaling, underperforming class design, etc.).
    I spend 99% of my time soloing, and so I have high defense on ALL of my alts. My HR (main) has the highest on live and already hits around 90-95% DR when the bondings kick in. If I swap all her companion gear and companions around it can go past 130%, which is of course overkill. That said, all of my alts have robust defense stats -- they need them when soloing. I'm actually not talking mainly about tanks, as out of 16 alts I have only one GF and one OP and I don't play them often at all.

    While you may prefer to play this way, you do know it's really not necessary, right? None of those characters need tank-level defenses to get the job done solo. If you have enough stat points right now to be maxing out your defenses on your DPS characters, you could easily swap them over to offensive stats and simply kill everything before it has a chance to deal any significant damage.

    The only time I am not soloing is when in specific dungeons and trials, so my advice comes from what I imagine is similar experience.
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  • geno82geno82 Posts: 80Member Arc User
    Little question ..

    3% more power should more worth than 3000 power or?

    If I have 50,000 power, 3% more damage is less than 3% more damage of 100,000 power

    Or im wrong?
  • davidmokidavidmoki Posts: 52Member Arc User
    edited March 28


    Aye, you are correct. I still haven't heard a reason for the much longer cool down times other than "to keep us from being too powerful".

    The changes to cooldowns has been discussed in different places, but it is easy to lose track of that information in the sea of threads that is M16.

    There are multiple reasons. The first is overall balance and how the powers relate to one another. Dailies get used least frequently and therefore do the most damage, Encounters get used a medium amount and do medium damage and At-Wills are used frequently and do the least amount.

    Another big reason is strategy and planning. When Neverwinter launched, encounter and daily powers were not spammable. Later updates added more and more ways to keep reducing these cooldowns, and eventually everything could be spammed. This takes meaning, strategy and planning away from the use of powers and we wanted to restore that meaning as well as bring the game back to its original intentions for those power types.
    so basically what you are saying is "yes, you are weaker, the game is less fun and it is intended that way" ?
    This plan is gonna fail, you know why? We dont like feeling weak, nobody will use at wills since it does no damage, dailies became weaker in mod 16, because we can use it less times, so its an overall damage decrease, since the values for defense and deflection are so high, most people will not have the minimum and die in 3 seconds, all they will do is spam skills run around until they are off cd to use them again, because if they stop to use at wills not only they will deal no damage, they will also die.
    Mod 15 is fun, kinda of unbalanced? yes, but you are making it worse, I guarantee you that mod 17 will be about fixing all the mess mod 16 is bringing.

  • lowjohnlowjohn Posts: 1,008Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    eolee said:



    agodbea said:

    "-30% HP to all monsters" equals +43% damage even so is a huge change.

    Hope tooltips can show % chance we have vs a monster of equal level as that will make them easier to understand.

    7% critical chance (vs targets of your level using your current values)
    N% chance to deflect ...

    I think your maths are off. Just because you eat a new cake compared to the 100% size of the old cake doesnt mean you're gonna make +43% bite size. Your cake is smaller of course but your mouth isnt bigger, is it? 100%/(100%-30%) is not the dps increase...Nor is it to calculate the size of your bite, despite the cake being smaller... Your new bite isnt gonna be 1.43 times bigger than the old one.
    It just means the best thing you can do with the cake is eat it 30% faster, at the very best. But the increase amount to your bite is 0%. They didnt change the size of your spoon, nor the size of your mouth, just the size of what you are eating xD. So i do not understand where you see a DPS increase when at wills magnitude hasnt changed, and encounters/dailies got reduced.

    Maybe im off, dunno. But makes sense to me.
    Your DPS numbers will not go up. They'll even go down, for Encounters and Dailies. The amount of time it takes to kill a monster will go down, even though your numbers haven't changed.

    If your Encounter power took away 50% of a 10K HP mob's health before, it'll probably still take away 50% of the mob's health now even if the number floating over the enemy's head is now "3500" instead of "5000". But your at-will, whose damage floater still says "1000"? Now takes away 14.3% of the enemy's health, instead of 10%.

    That's what he means by "same damage numbers with 30% less enemy HP is a 43% damage increase"
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User
    davidmoki said:


    Aye, you are correct. I still haven't heard a reason for the much longer cool down times other than "to keep us from being too powerful".

    The changes to cooldowns has been discussed in different places, but it is easy to lose track of that information in the sea of threads that is M16.

    There are multiple reasons. The first is overall balance and how the powers relate to one another. Dailies get used least frequently and therefore do the most damage, Encounters get used a medium amount and do medium damage and At-Wills are used frequently and do the least amount.

    Another big reason is strategy and planning. When Neverwinter launched, encounter and daily powers were not spammable. Later updates added more and more ways to keep reducing these cooldowns, and eventually everything could be spammed. This takes meaning, strategy and planning away from the use of powers and we wanted to restore that meaning as well as bring the game back to its original intentions for those power types.
    so basically what you are saying is "yes, you are weaker, the game is less fun and it is intended that way" ?
    This plan is gonna fail, you know why? We dont like feeling weak, nobody will use at wills since it does no damage, dailies became weaker in mod 16, because we can use it less times, so its an overall damage decrease, since the values for defense and deflection are so high, most people will not have the minimum and die in 3 seconds, all they will do is spam skills run around until they are off cd to use them again, because if they stop to use at wills not only they will deal no damage, they will also die.
    Mod 15 is fun, kinda of unbalanced? yes, but you are making it worse, I guarantee you that mod 17 will be about fixing all the mess mod 16 is bringing.

    You're saying "at-wills are worthless" because that's how they've been for much of this preview cycle, but they're explicitly being buffed by a fair amount.

    I do think that Defense and Deflect need to be looked at, since even on live they're considered inefficient in comparison to straight HP, and both have functional counterstats. We know that the devs don't intend for there to be a One True Stat or One True build, so I hope they keep a close eye on how this change impacts itemization.

    The ideal scenario, obviously, is to arrange and incentivize Defense and Deflect that a tank would want a mix of all of them and raw HP for survivability.

    As it currently seems to stand:
    Deflect is just undesireable; it has a counter-stat, it has a hard cap, and except for classes that have improved Deflect severity, it is only half as effective as defense. Yes, it provides another layer on top of defense, but that just means that you would ignore it until you've hit a practical cap on defense. Many of the high-end boons from the campaigns incentivize Deflect, either by allowing you to reflect damage or heal yourself when deflecting... but I'm pretty sure those boons are gone in the new unified boon system. Devs, is there a plan to make Deflect desirable to players as a defensive stat?

    Defense is in a better place, but unless encounter design makes HP sponges an unreasonable burden on healers, it's still going to play second fiddle to raw HP on a lot of characters because of just how much of it you need before it it becomes more efficient than simply stacking more numbers on your red bar.

    If you just want tanks to chase Defense, perhaps improve its interaction with Blocked damage?
  • burnthelamb#6611 burnthelamb Posts: 7Member Arc User
    Guess we'll find out when it gets patched in. I do hope I'm wrong :)
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Posts: 1,861Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    davidmoki said:


    Aye, you are correct. I still haven't heard a reason for the much longer cool down times other than "to keep us from being too powerful".

    The changes to cooldowns has been discussed in different places, but it is easy to lose track of that information in the sea of threads that is M16.

    There are multiple reasons. The first is overall balance and how the powers relate to one another. Dailies get used least frequently and therefore do the most damage, Encounters get used a medium amount and do medium damage and At-Wills are used frequently and do the least amount.

    Another big reason is strategy and planning. When Neverwinter launched, encounter and daily powers were not spammable. Later updates added more and more ways to keep reducing these cooldowns, and eventually everything could be spammed. This takes meaning, strategy and planning away from the use of powers and we wanted to restore that meaning as well as bring the game back to its original intentions for those power types.
    so basically what you are saying is "yes, you are weaker, the game is less fun and it is intended that way" ?
    This plan is gonna fail, you know why? We dont like feeling weak, nobody will use at wills since it does no damage, dailies became weaker in mod 16, because we can use it less times, so its an overall damage decrease, since the values for defense and deflection are so high, most people will not have the minimum and die in 3 seconds, all they will do is spam skills run around until they are off cd to use them again, because if they stop to use at wills not only they will deal no damage, they will also die.
    Mod 15 is fun, kinda of unbalanced? yes, but you are making it worse, I guarantee you that mod 17 will be about fixing all the mess mod 16 is bringing.

    You're saying "at-wills are worthless" because that's how they've been for much of this preview cycle, but they're explicitly being buffed by a fair amount.

    I do think that Defense and Deflect need to be looked at, since even on live they're considered inefficient in comparison to straight HP, and both have functional counterstats. We know that the devs don't intend for there to be a One True Stat or One True build, so I hope they keep a close eye on how this change impacts itemization.

    The ideal scenario, obviously, is to arrange and incentivize Defense and Deflect that a tank would want a mix of all of them and raw HP for survivability.

    As it currently seems to stand:
    Deflect is just undesireable; it has a counter-stat, it has a hard cap, and except for classes that have improved Deflect severity, it is only half as effective as defense. Yes, it provides another layer on top of defense, but that just means that you would ignore it until you've hit a practical cap on defense. Many of the high-end boons from the campaigns incentivize Deflect, either by allowing you to reflect damage or heal yourself when deflecting... but I'm pretty sure those boons are gone in the new unified boon system. Devs, is there a plan to make Deflect desirable to players as a defensive stat?

    Defense is in a better place, but unless encounter design makes HP sponges an unreasonable burden on healers, it's still going to play second fiddle to raw HP on a lot of characters because of just how much of it you need before it it becomes more efficient than simply stacking more numbers on your red bar.

    If you just want tanks to chase Defense, perhaps improve its interaction with Blocked damage?
    The answer to the Defense/Deflect part of the equation is simple, and always has been:

    If +1000 defense is worth +10 item level, then +1000 deflect can be worth +5 item level. Enchants that give +deflect can give twice as much stat *points* as enchants that give +defense. But the dev team has universally rejected this simple suggestion.

    You could, of course, instead say that +1000 deflect is +2% deflect chance instead of +1% deflect chance, if one preferred to keep +1 stat worth +1 stat.
  • adinosiiadinosii Posts: 3,738Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    You're saying "at-wills are worthless" because that's how they've been for much of this preview cycle, but they're explicitly being buffed by a fair amount.

    Well, strictly speaking, single-target at-wills stay the same, but they will feel like they got buffed because mobs HP is being reduced. Multi-target at-wills are being buffed on to of that (which actually is a bit unfair for classes that do not have any multi-target at-wills to begin with).

    Make NWO great again, please....
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Posts: 3,187Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    Re: the new stat system hitting us tommorrow,
    For Level 80 Undermountain, If I set my stats to:

    240,000 Health (=60000 stat points)
    50000 Power
    12000 Critical Hit%
    12000 Defense
    12000 Deflect
    12000 Combat Advantage
    62,000 Awareness
    62,000 Accuracy
    62,000 Armor Penetration
    62,000 Critical Resistance

    I will have spent/used 406,000 stat points (thats close to what players will have with top gear)
    My resulting effectiveness will be as follows:

    240,000 Health
    +50% Power
    5% Critical Hit chance
    0% Damage Resistance
    0% Deflection chance
    10% Combat Advantage bonus damage

    My enemies will have:
    Default Health
    Default Power
    5% Critical Hit chance
    0% Damage Resistance
    0% Deflection chance
    10% Combat Advantage bonus damage


    NET RESULT is essentially Zero loss/Zero gain. If this is what you're aiming for, it will work.
    If you set all your stats to 37,000, you will have 25% effectiveness and so will your enemy.


    Re: the new stat system hitting us tommorrow,
    For Level 80 Undermountain, If I set my stats to:

    240,000 Health (=60000 stat points)
    50000 Power
    12000 Critical Hit%
    12000 Defense
    12000 Deflect
    12000 Combat Advantage
    62,000 Awareness
    62,000 Accuracy
    62,000 Armor Penetration
    62,000 Critical Resistance

    I will have spent/used 406,000 stat points (thats close to what players will have with top gear)
    My resulting effectiveness will be as follows:

    240,000 Health
    +50% Power
    5% Critical Hit chance
    0% Damage Resistance
    0% Deflection chance
    10% Combat Advantage bonus damage

    My enemies will have:
    Default Health
    Default Power
    5% Critical Hit chance
    0% Damage Resistance
    0% Deflection chance
    10% Combat Advantage bonus damage


    NET RESULT is essentially Zero loss/Zero gain. If this is what you're aiming for, it will work.
    If you set all your stats to 37,000, you will have 25% effectiveness and so will your enemy.


    haRD TO stack penetration+accuracy
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Posts: 1,329Member Arc User
    adinosii said:

    You're saying "at-wills are worthless" because that's how they've been for much of this preview cycle, but they're explicitly being buffed by a fair amount.

    Well, strictly speaking, single-target at-wills stay the same, but they will feel like they got buffed because mobs HP is being reduced. Multi-target at-wills are being buffed on to of that (which actually is a bit unfair for classes that do not have any multi-target at-wills to begin with).

    Unless the single target At Wills they have are already OK.

    One thing getting buffed while another, similar, thing doesn't isn't automatically unfair. (Though it is if they were balanced to begin with ;) )
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